I'm getting frustrated with ProU--not with ProU itself, but with the number of posts that espouse the banning of civil rights for GLBT people. I see these posts and I think, "I've got to stand up for my people!" But the people posting them are usually dogmatic, religious, and are only able to see the situation as it looks through bible-colored lenses.
It is frustrating to make rational, logical points over and over, only to have those points dismissed as "immoral."
I think my plan of attack has to be passivity, which makes me sad. This is a great forum for sparking new neural connections, but I am not seeing the rewards where this debate is concerned. I don't see that my arguments have made on bit of difference in the minds of those who spread the hate, and it has done nothing but make me feel bad to read their self-righteous indictments of who I am. So I 'm not going to read them or reply to them anymore.
The most baffling part of the situation, though, is that gay marriage is at the forefront of their minds in the first place. It's not like the recent post list is all full of GAY GAY GAY! In fact, the times I've posted about anything gay have been sparked by an insensitive, anti-gay post written by a conservative Christian. It really seems like they think about gay sex way more than gay people do. Why are they at war with us?
Okay. Maybe I will continue to respond. If I don't change their minds on the issue, I may be able to help some young person who is struggling by being a voice of reason in an irrational blogosphere.




My advice is to never, ever let a comment that is ignorant, hateful or bigoted go unchallenged. Yes, you probably aren't going to change the mind of the person who said it...but you might. And, it is always important to remember that you and your opponent aren't the only ones reading the blogs. A lot of my comments are actually directed not at the author of the offensive comment, but to the young gay people who may be lurking in the background and reading the exchange, but who lack the experience, self-image, or force of will to defend themselves from the hateful rhetoric which is unfortunately a part of virtually any and all internet forums. They need to know that they aren't alone in this, and that it is possible to stand up to for yourself against the hate-mongers of the world.
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
You are absolutely right. I can't ignore it. I have to try to pace myself, though. I've noticed that on days where there's a lot of ignorance flying around, I get a little snide in my responses. That doesn't help anyone. I will try to remain rational, unemotional, and keep education as my goal.
Thanks.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I think it's funny how you consider preserving morals and respecting the point of marriage to be "ignorant." Sorry for trying to stand up for what is truly right. I don't hate gay people. I think they are good people just making the wrong decisions, as do all of us. I do not agree with legalizing something that is wrong. I believe in equal rights for gays. And if you vote for Obama, which I myself am, you will know he shares the same beliefs I do. He believes in equal rights for gay people, but does not agree with gay marriage because of his personal beliefs. I'm not here to offend anyone, more so, try to inform people that it is not about hate, it's about doing what is right, which doesn't happen often these days.
If you equate "preserving morals" with "only the morals defined by my religion," or if you think that your version of "marriage" is the only one that is "truly right" (whatever the heck, that means), then I think you opinion probably falls within the realm of what one could call "ignorant." Most discriminatory attitudes are, in my humble opinion, based in ignorance. I also think it is hypocritical to suggest that you believe in "equal rights for gay people," when you are willing to deny the basic civil right of the freedom to marry.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
...how you are unable to detect the irony of your comment. If you don't get it, Blackout's comment will explain it to you.
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I'm a little biased, because I am an agnostic who abhors Christianity and organized religion in general. In the past, I have dealt with their ignorance by ranting and raving, generally calling them out on their lunacy, and saying how hypocritical it is to say, "hey I want religious freedom, "under god" on my dollar bills, but it's not O.K. for other people to have marriage to the people they love because MY Bible says it's wrong."
However, this never really worked, because the really die-hard conservative Christians don't really care and aren't going to change. My new approach is not to change their attitude, but to change how they say it. Because so many write with hate-filled rhetoric, I have begun leaving message saying, "Instead of saying this... how about wording it like this, 'According to my beliefs, which are based on ____ religion, homosexuality is wrong, but I can understand there are people who aren't (insert religious affiliation) and that it's unfair to apply my personal beliefs to them.'"
I seem to get more success with this.
Unfortunately, I've never been much of honey. Piss and vinegar is more like it! But you are right, and I will try to be nice.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
...
You...
you...
abhor me??
:'((
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What's the worst that could happen, apart from all of us being flattened or fried or whatever bombs do? [Rudy Steiner from The Book Thief]
Now, now, now... I believe my exact words were:
I don't see anything in there about the people who practice said religions, do you? My mother is a re-born Christian and she is still my most-loved person in the whole, wide, world. See?
(sniffle.)
K.
Well, I guess I hate organized religion too, ha. :-S
<3
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What's the worst that could happen, apart from all of us being flattened or fried or whatever bombs do? [Rudy Steiner from The Book Thief]
I'm not religious even slightly. I oppose gay marriage because I am conservative and I fear the effect of gay marriage on society.
Marriage is an important institution and is the basic building block of society. It is an institution already in a lot of trouble and I think we should not do anything worse to damage it. We should probably return to the more restrictive divorce laws that made marriage work better. People should enter marriage with a greater sense of seriousness and committment and the certain knowledge that it is a hard thing to undo, Progress is not always good and in the case of marriage it has been decidely bad. We did not used to have a problem with society having to support large numbers of single women with children..
I see this as sort of a chicken and egg scenario. I imagine that the PRACTICE of a man and woman living in a committed, enduring, monogamous (mostly) relationship was around a LONG time before anybody came up with a word for it or a ceremony or the institution of marriage
I have no problem with gays living in similar relationships and being given legal rights similar or identical to marriage called civil unions but I'd like to see some substantial history (maybe a thousand years) before I see a union between two people of the same sex as equivalent to a marriage between two people of the opposite sex. There are definately some scattered examples of gays living in these types of relationships but they have little to do with the overall gay culture as gays themselves have defined and promoted it. The push for gay marriage is a very recent thing and there is not enough history for me to risk a basic building block of society to meet a whim demanded by a tiny minority of our population. Certainly there is nothing comparable to the thousands of years of heterosexual marriage.
Conservatives are cautious about preserving and protecting the things that make society work. It is a perfectly rational position that has nothing to do with hatred, bigotry, religious zeal or ignorance.
What steps have you taken to educate yourself about the history of same-sex relationships and marriages? I find your appeal to be a bit...odd, especially since you have been previously provided with a substantial number of historical examples of same-sex marriages in cultures from around the world, some dating back many thousands of years.
But even if this were not the case, you are fundamentally misapprehending the way that basic rights work in the United States. No one owes you any explanation at all for why they wish to exercise a basic right, and yes, the Supreme Court of the United States has ruled many times that the "freedom to marry" is in fact a "basic right." Your opinion on how people "should" be getting married is irrelevant, and you are fundamentally misapprehending the way our Constitution works if you think you get to stop people from exercising their basic rights just because you don't like what they do with THEIR freedom.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
No rights are unlimited. Just ask the gun control folks.
I have the basic right to marry. But I don't have the basic right to marry my sister. My rights are restricted. I'm not allowed to marry multiple people. I can't marry people below a certain age. Etc.
You have the exact same right to marry as I do and are subject to the exact same restrictions I am.
...when the rationale represents a "compelling interest of the State," and those restriction must be free of "invidious categorizations." That's a pretty steep hill to climb for those who wish to limit the rights of same-sex couples to marry.
To quote one of the most famous landmark decisions regarding the freedom to marry...
Your opinion is a classic example of the sort of "invidious categorization" that the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits. And, you assertion that "have the exact same right to marry as I do" is a pedantic evasion, and can easily be countered by pointing to the the fact that I do NOT have the same rights, nor do I face the same restrictions as the who woman (presumably) you might chose to marry. Your comparison only fails when you arbitrarily eliminate approximately one-half of the U.S. population from the equation, which of course does not make for a very convincing argument.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.