I was wondering if you could tell me what your religion is and the general foundation of your beliefs. I'm trying to figure myself out, so I'm trying to gather as much information as possible on as many religions as possible.
What's your religion?
Posted October 11th, 2008 by lennon12
I define my religion on Facebook as 'in transition'. I'm no longer Christian (I was for a long time, and thought that my beliefs were pretty firm). But I can't exactly claim another religion yet, however much my beliefs may correlate with that religion. However, I did write a blog about this almost a year ago (though a lot has changed in my life since then, I think it still applies now). You can read it here.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
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I'm Catholic, and, if you want to get specific, Catholicism has different religious orders, and I think I probably fit in better with the Dominican Order. They are a very spiritual and philosophical order, focused on social justice.
But I'm not very good at being Catholic... I don't believe life starts at conception and I am pro-choice, I'm pro same-sex marriage, I don't believe it's necessary to abstain from sex until marriage, I am pro-contraception. I also don't believe any of those things should be... important? I'm pretty in love with the movie Dogma and I don't find anything by Monty Python or Dane Cook particularly offensive. When people take offense to anti-Catholic things, I think it's funny. When people ask me what I gave up for Lent, I look them straight in the eye and tell them "being Catholic." I like to think that God thinks I'm funny.
I taught pre-school religious education because they learn the fundamentals that are important (like love your neighbor and listen to your parents and wash your hands and Jesus loves you) and simple prayers and I got to play games and eat graham crackers and drink capri suns. Those kids loved me, the parents loved me, I'm not gonna lie--I was one of the best teachers, and I hope I made some kind of positive impact in their lives.
I also don't agree with this quasi-new idea that kids should get Confirmation at the same time as first Communion and first Reconciliation. So when the church asked me to teach the second grade class (because, you know, I'm awesome) I told them no and I let them know that it was because I didn't agree with the idea of giving the sacrament of confirmation to 9-year-olds because they weren't capable of making that decision.
I guess... I've grown up my whole life in the Catholic Church. I am a cradle Catholic. I'm always going to call myself Catholic, even though sometimes, though I really do believe in God, I'm not really sure about the whole Jesus thing. I'm kind of church hopping right now because I just moved here a couple months ago, but there aren't any Dominican Order churches here and I really don't feel like I fit in anywhere else. But I do like going to church and I like the rituals and I love going to Mass at night when it's a candle-lit Mass. I love the stained glass windows and the complete silence at parts and the art and the statues and everything. I love taize prayer and saying the rosary, because they are great ways to meditate and reflect on life. I just don't agree with certain teachings, and I'm ok with that.
I went to a Dominican-run church the 5 years I was in AZ and all my priests' homilies were on things that mattered. My priests talked about the injustices in El Salvador and took trips there with students just to here people talk and hear their stories of what happened during the Civil war they had years ago. This reply I wrote to someone, and this blog--straight out of my priests' homilies. They had good messages in their homilies that were positive, instead of "Don't do this" and "this is bad" and "pray for these people to change." I also went to a fairly liberal church on a college campus... the church on my new college campus isn't quite so liberal... I don't think I'll find a place I really feel I belong here, and that makes me a little sad. But there is a nice cathedral nearby, and it's pretty.
And, I realize my belief in a higher power is irrational. I am capable of recognizing that. But it's mine and I like it. :-)
Sorry... I've rambled. ;-)
"What a crazy random happenstance!"
Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
Read my Blog!
WOW, You're better than the priests!
I really do love this post, it's perfect, it's amazing. if every god loving human thought this way, the world would know God.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I also don't agree with this quasi-new idea that kids should get Confirmation at the same time as first Communion and first Reconciliation.
O.O That's just wrong. That's supposed to mark the passage into adult-hood, when you are making that decision to stay a Catholic as you "go out into the world."
Are they wanting kids to grow up that fast?
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
I'm a bit confused at to what you're asking. Are you actually trying to find a religion that corresponds to your own fundamental precepts of morality, or are you just simply curious about belief-in-general?!
-OxonGlass11
In reply to the original blog entry:
People keep asking to hit the "Reply" prompt at the end of a post. I do this when it's there, and in this case it wasn't.
In reply to the original post, I respond:
Rather than look for a religion you can conform to, look for your own religion.
After all, all religions are written by humans.
Why not write your own?
You have everything you need:
A body, a soul, a heart, a mind. You have your family, your community, your culture, your state, your country.
You have a point of reference.
What do you need in a religion?
I would give the same advice to someone looking for a job. Think about what matters to you, and then interview them.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
You'll only find the reply button at the bottom of each comment. If you are responding to the actual post, like you are now, you only need to fill out the box at the bottom of the post, like you did.
However, if you use that box when replying to a comment someone left on the post, it looks as if you are replying to the post, people get confused, and that's why we ask you to use the reply link for comments. :-)
"What a crazy random happenstance!"
Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
Read my Blog!
If you write and create your own religion nowadays, it would be deemed a "cult." Also, I frankly believe that religion itself is quite unnecessary, however I know some would agrue we need it for moral guidance.
You would first have to proselytize your religion before it could called a "cult."
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I'm sort of exploring my own beliefs, looking for something I can call myself, but I'm also fascinated by the human mind and the ideas it comes up with.
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
I like learning about different religions, I was raised Jehovah's Witness and thats the religion I most identify with today. But I see downfall in all organized religion. and i try to focus on my personal relationship with God. at some times more than others, we are dependent on religion to help guide that relationship we are developing.
“Wake Up or Loop Yourself”
I’m actually the Man, Idea, Plan, Thought and Brain behind the WULY spiritualization.
The mission and concept behind WULY is to wake (us) people up!
“Wake Up”
This in order for people to feel a harder itch in the back of their brain the next time they take a ride in the physical we refer to as being life or state of aliveness!
“Loop yourself”
Is the negative aspect I hope to tackle in people’s lives (minds), whenever people enter this world. While having left the previous life clinging to a belief system pushed from the outside in, they have a actually looped their life to (now) start the same one all over again, like a never ending loop!
Same applies to people who chose to end their life, they remain limited and have to work twice as hard to untangle themselves from this loop which keeps them limited!
That’s where WULY comes in!
What you read now, will make sense in a later stage of your lives, lol!
To give you an example of why things are the way they are and why, no one understands everything at the same specific synchronic moment is because people allow themselves to be molded into limitation, acquiring no knowledge whatsoever!
For instance: Gay individuals!
Why do gay individuals ARE while NOT understood to BE?
They are, because they have lived like a serious amount of previous lives before, and yes, until this life, they have shifted numerous times of gender!
They are not understood, simply because most people amongst don’t use their brain, they are not to be blamed for this, since they don’t know any better… Who?
Yourself, if you don’t accept them to be who they are!
So, what most people ignore is the fact that you, myself and all you see and meet every day, in a much deeper reality, are both male and female within, maybe not in the physical appearances, but we all carry both inside our essence, the core of our being.
Most people assume love is penis vs vagina!
So, Vagina/Vagina or Penis/Penis is eeeuwww!
Well,,,Sex, has absolutely nothing to do with LOVE, no relation what’s so ever!
That’s a fairytale, romantically nonsyfied rubbish which is limiting each and every single being upon this planet.
Love is universal, omnipresent while wrongly understood and portrayed by those individuals who impose so called morals upon all!
So, it boils down to finding proper ways to pass thoughts and new ways of thinking in order to bring people to find some personal realization of what truly is worth living for!
To avoid to turn souls inside out like most fanatics do when imposing their so called truths, WULY is a different approach which set goals into waking up people!
Still it is disturbing but it doesn’t push forward or promote brain damage…
Example of something disturbing.
Not to know you love your partner can be confusing, still, this may seem a little disgusting but! You and I know, it’s the truth!
We all love, like and enjoy the smell of our own personal farts!
In case you don’t mind the one of your partner, regardless of the noise upon arrival, YOU LOVE HIM/HER!
So, the reason why I started WULY is to speed up the process for those who are willing to gain more out of life!
What’s there to gain the WULY way?
Expansion of thought and knowledge, together with a profound conscious awareness of your own truth self!
Freedom of mind and spirit!
WULY is a nonprofit thought, it’s exchangeable while it holds no copyrighted elements!
The source to get in touch with WULY spiritualization is within ones own thought!
To focus upon natural beauty throughout the use of triggers is helpfull!
My first step “WULY” recommendation would be following documentaries or movies
which can trigger deeper awareness to manifest itself!
Some samples
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/27826/deep_blue/
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/895660/earth_the_official_trailer/
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/566553/jacob_miller_who_we_are_from_the_bb...
Travelling Birds
There is more out there, to ask always works great inside WULY spiritualization
Have a WULY day....
http://www.wowzone.com/monkey.htm
I don't know if I entirely grasp everything you just said, but my intuition says you are correct.
Sorry for the intrusive solicitation, but please see my blog:
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/49231-how-religion-keeps-us-god
In it I question the common idea that God is male.
A new thought, to myself at least:
I was raised on the idea that homosexuality is a sin, because the Bible talks about the evil in Sodom and Gomorrah: please reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_gomorrah
I would like to announce a challenge:
I would to like to challenge progressiveuers to cite a scripture in the Bible that
a) condemns male/male relationships where sodomy does not take place, and
b) where female/female romantic and/or sexual relationships are condemned.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I did read your post, I even rated it to the max.
I will comment upon your blog inside your post, I was planning to do so, but found myself short in time.
“I don't know if I entirely grasp everything you just said.”
That’s not important, more important still, is the fact you carry an open mind to other ideas, which them might sound completely ridiculous to another.
It will all make more sense in a later stage of your live, which is far more important than most are willing to assume.
My goal, is more or less to speed up that process in order for the tipping point to catch as many as possible.
When I say catch, I mean, the more who wake up in time to come, the more will help one another to recall and wake up faster in the next ride within the physical.
The tipping point is the point in which conscious awareness will surface after ages of organized enslavement, a point which will bring new means of understanding of who we are and why we are here.
We now live in amazing times since it has become only a matter of triggering all those who feel the itch in the back of their head.
Did you know “intuition” was the one and only reason more over 4 million women got murdered during inquisition?!
That’s a lot of females who’s suffering alone send out a traumatic energy ripple across this globe!
During those day’s (not so long ago) “Intuition” was the biggest threat to whatever worshipping structure, today internet is bringing down this curtain. This is absolutely amazing a reality to witness, the internet censorship some are tying put in place and push forward is failing!
To many have already found their way down the rabbit whole, consciousness is now starting to rise at a rapid pace, making people to shift their awareness all over this globe.
This is why it is of no importance to accept or believe anything, to keep an open mind will bring all realization later on! While not having to go through the suffering of letting go of old beliefs, which is or can become a painful process, people love to cling to
what they personally believe even when those believes are not in line with truth!
We see that sad display on t.v. every day....
http://www.wowzone.com/monkey.htm
Wombels, You are awesome, I love you.
I'm sure you have, but just wanted to make sure, have you seen the film "What the bleep do we know?" That one was truly responsible for sparking some serious "Itches" in my brain.
(And one I recommend to everyone in the world, but especially to people who have not already settled on a fixed belief system.)
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
But don’t read all of my blogs (yet), you might change your mind, lol
I have seen that movie, must admit, they did a great job and it reflects great aspects in order to help anyone upon its way to wake up, even those who carry a belief in whatever.
The thing is, persons who carry a belief system will have a harder time to grasp what’s presented in this movie, because it takes one to allow itself to think outside it’s illusionary limitation in order to perceive there is no limitation!
Although I understand your enthusiasm, keep in mind not everyone is open or willing to explore what’s to be found out there, and more important, what’s to be found within oneself!
Just like yourself, I recommend everyone to watch this movie.
http://www.wowzone.com/monkey.htm
sending me a pm with a link to this video? I am now tracking you and looking for your videos, since most of the times I have seen them I was at work on a PC with no speakers. I am finding so many interesting things.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I'm a Roman Catholic...I've been Catholic all my life, so I'm a cradle Catholic.
The center of the Catholic faith is the Real Presence of the Eucharist. Because we believe the Eucharist to be the Real Presence of Christ (Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity), the Church states that you must be free of mortal sin in order to receive. We believe that Christ's Body and Blood comes under the appearance of bread and wine during Mass at the words of consecration. When we receive the Eucharist, we are receiving God into our souls and this helps to nourish our souls and helps us grow in holiness.
The Church has seven sacraments that all help us to attain Heaven. We believe that Jesus died for us on the cross to save us from Hell. However, we also believe that, as Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will be worthy of eternal life" or something along those lines...therefore, we believe that we must strive not to sin.
However, God in His infinite mercy and love knows that we are not perfect. Therefore, we are given the sacrament of Reconciliation where we confess our sins to a priest. At this time, the priest absolves us of our sins and we have a clean sheet.
We are obliged to go to Mass every Sunday and on the 6 Holy Days of Obligation, receive Communion at least once a year, and go to Confession (Reconciliation) at least once a year (once a month is recommended).
We believe in the Bible and in tradition. Most Protestant groups believe in Sola Scriptura, which is the belief that the Bible is the only source of teaching. However, Catholics believe this idea to be false because no where in the Bible does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura. Secondly, the Bible encourages the idea of tradition.
The Church teaches the sanctity of life (from conception until natural death) and that artificial contraceptives are intrinsically evil and that abortion is always evil. However, the Church promotes Natural Family Planning which couples can use if they are not prepared for a child at the time. It teaches that the woman's infertile time has been given to her by God and that there are various signs that actually show where a woman is in her cycle. This helps to allow married couples to do the marital act (have sex) while not getting pregnant.
The Church believes sex to be a sacred act and thus treats it as such. It teaches that people should not have sex outside of marriage because sex says "I am yours totally and completely" and sex outside of marriage contradicts that.
Hope this helps outline some beliefs. : ) If you have any more questions, feel free to ask!
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
"It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
~Mother Teresa
Thank you for such a succinct explanation of your beliefs. I have read some of your other comments (you have posted great comments on my own blogs). Fundamentally I disagree with most of your beliefs mainly because I find them to be too "black and white".
However, there is one thing you said I do agree with.
"The Church believes sex to be a sacred act and thus treats it as such. It teaches that people should not have sex outside of marriage because sex says "I am yours totally and completely" and sex outside of marriage contradicts that."
I think that much of the world's problems today stem from the human tendency to deny this fact. Much of the world's suffering stems from the fact that people ignore the sacredness of sex. "Casual sex" is at the heart of many of the world's problems, as well as "Casual birth".
If people understood the sacredness of sex, and reserved sex for a person they saw as worthy of coparenting any potential offspring, the world would be a much safer place.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Thank you. : ) I've enjoyed reading your blogs. ; )
Yeah, I have a pretty logical mind, so I tend to see things in black and white when there should be some color. There are some things that are morally black and white, but color is a part of life.
Thank you. : ) Casual sex is definitely a problem and I think that if children were taught to love their future spouses, we might not have as many problems. For example, I've been taught to pray for my spouse and my future children. I think about him every day and pray for him every night before I go to sleep. At Mass, I offer up my Mass for him. I pray for his family, for his purity and chastity, for his health, for his understanding in God's will, for his struggles, for his intentions, and sometimes for little things like that he eats well that day or gets enough sleep. This provides me with more of a connection with him and I know he is out there somewhere. That motivates me to save myself for him. Too bad more kids don't have an opportunity to have this mentality.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
"It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
~Mother Teresa
Well I'm an atheist, but that's subject to change. I started off as a Baptist, although as young as six I had doubts about the existence of God. Around 13-15 I was really religious. After that I believed in God but followed no specific religion. I still believed in "Christian" principles like loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek because I found that those made my life so much easier (although they came pretty naturally to me). Later, when I was a freshman in college, I started reading about Paganism and realized that (broad) religion pretty much summed up my beliefs. But a few months ago, i realized that i rarely if ever thought about God anymore, and my life had been just fine. And I realized that my believing in God had nothing to do with my actions or beliefs and there was no reason to try and make myself believe when I had already lost faith. I guess my religious or moral beliefs would be following the Golden rule, loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, being a good Samaritan, and treating all people with love and respect (when they deserve it).
YOU leave Canada - Leo
Whether or not you choose to proclaim a belief in God your life is a testament to the existence of God. You have your own doubts, and your personal stance has vacilated along with your life experience.
The fact that you are aware of a universal human code of conduct is evidence that you are in touch with God.
The fact that you have doubted God is evidence that you are an individual.
God is manifest in the hearts of humans. Jesus said "God is love". Therefore anyone who knows love knows God.
Anyone who can grasp the idea of loving all humans has come as close to knowing God's heart as is humanly possible.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
But why must that feeling be of God? Why not of myself?
Leave Canada, please - Canadian Dude
Whether or not you choose to proclaim a belief in God your life is a testament to the existence of God. You have your own doubts, and your personal stance has vacilated along with your life experience.
No, my life is a testament to the existence of my ancestors.
The fact that you are aware of a universal human code of conduct is evidence that you are in touch with God.
No, it is evidence that humans evolved as societal organisms.
The fact that you have doubted God is evidence that you are an individual.
The mirror is better evidence.
God is manifest in the hearts of humans. Jesus said "God is love". Therefore anyone who knows love knows God.
Yeah, tell that to all of humanity he killed off in Noah's flood; Onan he killed for masturbating; the first-born Egyptian babies he had killed to teach the pharaoh a lesson; the guy he had Moses stone for collecting firewood on the Sabbath: the Canaanites he had the Israelites kill to take over the "promised land"; Jephthah's virgin daughter he accepted as a burnt offering for Jephthah's victory in battle; the 42 youths he had a she-bear maul for making fun of Elisha's bald head; all the cancer patients he DIDN'T cure; all the amputees that he has never even once helped grow back a leg.
Anyone who can grasp the idea of loving all humans has come as close to knowing God's heart as is humanly possible.
Yeah ... see the above paragraph.
In actuality I don't think God should get the blame for all that bad stuff that the bible says he did. God doesn't exist. But that means he shouldn't get the credit for the good things either..
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
"Yeah, tell that to all of humanity he killed off in Noah's flood; Onan he killed for masturbating; the first-born Egyptian babies he had killed to teach the pharaoh a lesson; the guy he had Moses stone for collecting firewood on the Sabbath: the Canaanites he had the Israelites kill to take over the "promised land"; Jephthah's virgin daughter he accepted as a burnt offering for Jephthah's victory in battle; the 42 youths he had a she-bear maul for making fun of Elisha's bald head; all the cancer patients he DIDN'T cure; all the amputees that he has never even once helped grow back a leg."
I don't believe in that God. I don't blame anyone who doesn't believe in that God.
These are human writings and human musings.
"No, it is evidence that humans evolved as societal organisms."
Yes it is. And what is it that you think humans are driven to evolve into? Are we done evolving? Or is there some aspect of higher being we humans haven't yet reached?
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I don't believe in that God. I don't blame anyone who doesn't believe in that God.
These are human writings and human musings.
How convenient that you can choose which God exists and which does not. That's some hard core picking and choosing.
Yes it is. And what is it that you think humans are driven to evolve into? Are we done evolving? Or is there some aspect of higher being we humans haven't yet reached?
Organisms do not evolve to reach some aspect of higher being, they evolve to survive.
Leave Canada, please - Canadian Dude
"How convenient that you can choose which God exists and which does not. That's some hard core picking and choosing."
There's no picking and choosing going on in my life. I believe what I know because I have sought and found.
"Organisms do not evolve to reach some aspect of higher being, they evolve to survive."
So long as you are surviving you have nothing else to do. So stop trying and STFU.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
There's no picking and choosing going on in my life. I believe what I know because I have sought and found.
OK.
So long as you are surviving you have nothing else to do. So stop trying and STFU.
Evolving IS surviving. Organisms don't evolve because they are bored. They evolve because of changes in their environment, food supply, etc.
Leave Canada, please - Canadian Dude
"How convenient that you can choose which God exists and which does not. That's some hard core picking and choosing."
There's no picking and choosing going on in my life. I believe what I know because I have sought and found.
Yeah .. right. How nice that you happened to find exactly what you wanted to, and are able to dismiss exactly what you don't like. ... and how surprising .
"Organisms do not evolve to reach some aspect of higher being, they evolve to survive."
So long as you are surviving you have nothing else to do. So stop trying and STFU.
Let's get a few things straight about evolution, shall we?
(1) Technically speaking organisms do not evolve at all. Populations of organisms do. Thus, you are genetically the same as the day you were born. But the population that contributes to the gene pool that you arose from is different than the population from which their gene pool was derived from.
(2) Populations evolve primarily through a process of in which organisms that are reproductively successful contribute their genes at a higher frequency than those who aren't reproductively successful. That follows from the definition of "reproductively successful". So the question of importance is, why are certain organisms more reproductively successful?
One answer is that with respect to reproduction some organisms are just luckier than others. In evolutionary theory any evolution that by this process (and it can be quite a bit) is called GENETIC DRIFT.
Another answer is that certain organisms are just naturally better adapted to their local environment that are others. They do better and therefore one would expect them to be more reproductively successful. If their genetic makeup contributes to their better adaptation then those genes that make it such that they are better adapted will naturally increase their frequency in succeeding gene pools (assuming no change in the environment). Evolution by this process is called NATURAL SELECTION and is considered by far the most important mechanism behind evolution.
(3) Their is no predictable direction that evolution will take. The fact of the matter is that local environments DO change, and they change in unpredictable ways. Thus, a trait that may be adaptive in one environment (and therefore be selected for) may be maladaptive in another environment (and therefore be selected against). This fact alone ensures that so long as there is life with inheritable traits evolution will continue.
(4) By looking at the evidence the idea that humans are some sort of pinnacle of evolution is unlikely. The one thing that we have that sets us aside from other organisms is our intelligence. But what is the justification for basing "pinnacle of evolution" on that trait alone? With regard to a host of other traits we are not doing so well.
We have a lordotic lower back that predisposes us to back pain. We are bipedal and bear our weight on two fairly small feet. That makes up prone to fallen arches. We don't have a jaw big enough to hold all our teeth. That is why most of us have to have their wisdom pulled when they finally erupt. We have an appendix that is an evolutionary remnant of a cecum. In herbivores it holds bacteria that help break down hard-to-digest cellulose in plant materials. In us the appendix is subject to infection. Our recurrent laryngeal nerve on the left side of the exits the spinal column in the upper neck, descends into the chest, wraps around the aorta, then ascends back up the neck to innervate the larynx. All it really needed to do was travel a few inches. Our lungs keep about 150 cc of old air for every breath we take. Certainly, we would do better if we had a respiratory system like that of birds in which there isn't a significant mixing of old and new air with each breath. We do not have a very good appetite regulatory system. Thus, in an environment not limited by the avaliability of food we overeat.
Those are just a few thing in which we could improve ourselves, I'm sure even you can think of other things. Genetic adaptations could take us down a route improving those. I doubt if it will, however. I suspect at the rate we are changing our environment something else that I cannot possibly imagine will become the driving force in our evolution. We'll just have to wait and see.
But whatever it is ... there is no reason to think that a God had anything to do with it. Whatever environment humans find themselves in at the time will determine it. And what is more important (and sobering) there is no reason to think that it necessarily lead to a result that we would consider from our perspective now to be a good one.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
[But whatever it is ... there is no reason to think that a God had anything to do with it. Whatever environment humans find themselves in at the time will determine it. And what is more important (and sobering) there is no reason to think that it necessarily lead to a result that we would consider from our perspective now to be a good one.]
However I fail to see how anything you said is evidence against the existence of God.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
However I fail to see how anything you said is evidence against the existence of God.
Er ... you asked:
From those questions, why would you expect evidence against God's existence? The intent of the response is to demonstrate that God is not needed to explain these things.
BUT as a point of information ... point 4 above does outline evidence against an intelligent designer.
Evidence against God includes the argument from unnecessary suffering and evidence against a Christian God includes the bible (of which I have too many posts to leave links to. If you are interested I suggest you check out my blog).
Other factors that I consider as evidence against a Christian God includes the irrationality of (1) Jesus' redemption of mankind by proxy; (2) God's divine hiddeness; (3) God being such a poor communicator that even though he wants people to believe in his existence he can't seem to convince them of it; (4) the concept of hell and eternal punishment for anything; (5) of our creation on earth instead of heaven; (6) natural laws being as they are if the intent of the universe is to maximize life; (7) our life on earth being essentially nothing more than an entrance exam into heaven, etc.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
This blog was a request for insight or knowledge into the existence of God and such named God's relationship with humans.
Perhaps I have not made a clear enough challenge. Would anyone possessing evidence against the existence of God in any form or nature please state your case?
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Since you claim God does exist, it's your responsibility to prove he does. It doesn't work the other way. If you claim pink elephants exist and I don't believe you, it's not up to me to prove they don't since I didn't bring pink elephants up in the first place.
McKinney 08
"Would anyone possessing evidence against the existence of God in any form or nature please state your case?"
The existence of many well-supported theories that explain the universe without the need to resort to some sort of deity. However, the real question here is the reverse; What evidence is there to support the existence of god? Personally, I find Hitchens annoying, but there's a quote of his that I like. "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
The positive argument, in this case "god exists" is the one that require evidence. Until there is evidence, there is not a need to take that argument seriously.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
I am interested in holding science accountable. Science in and of itself is relatively pure. Theory is part of science, but it is still "under investigation". Scientists should be wary of claiming anything before they have proof. They should also be willing to investigate any possibility, especially where it concerns the ongoing existence of humans.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
...scientists don't claim to have "proof." They claim to have evidence. And everything in science (even so-called "scientific laws") are subject to review and revision upon the receipt of new evidence. There are many scientists who have hypothesized about the existence of "god," but to date not ONE of them have been able to gather sufficient (any?) evidence for those hypotheses to be taken seriously enough to be granted the status of a Scientific Theory.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Quantum physics is actually getting pretty close. Check out the film "What the bleep do we know".
Another interesting source, the book "The God Particle" written by a Noble Prize winning physicist, Leon Lederman.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
...and I am aware of no credibly published findings that would suggest anything of the sort. And, I've seen "What the Bleep Do We Know!?", and I agree with the general reaction of the scientific community that this "documentary" is at best described as pseudoscience.
Also, have you ever read The God Particle? Dr. Leon Lederman is an atheist, and the title of his book actually refers to a common physics joke which refers to the Higgs Boson particle. In his own words...
Dr. Lederman's references to "god" and "the bible" are largely tongue-in-cheek, and metaphorical. He does not suggest in his book that his theories indicated a religous origin to the universe.
TTFN,
Blackout
"Physics isn't a religion. If it were, we'd have a much easier time raising money." ~ Leon Lederman
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
No I haven't read it. I've only read about it and about Leon Lederman. Thanks for the info. I am definitely going to read it now.
I'm curious as to what you think about Dr. Emoto's work with water.
BTW, What does TTFN mean?
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
...isn't really a doctor at all. His "doctorate in alternative medicine" did not come from any scientifically respected (or for that matter accredited) institution, and his "work" is so flawed on a methodological level as to be essentially worthless. I would suggest that you read the following...
Review and analysis of Dr. Masaru Emoto’s
published work on the effects of external stimuli
on the structural formation of ice crystals.
TTFN (ta ta for now),
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
BTW, What does TTFN mean?
Did you never watch Winnie the Pooh as a child?
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
:-))
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Well, I figured you did, I'm just not so sure turtlesuds has.
:huh:
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
For the record, yes I have. And I also believe in Heffalumps and Woozles!
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
You seem to misunderstand scientific theory. A theory in science is a body of well-supported facts. Gravity is a theory. Continental Drift is a theory. It's the Germ theory of disease. None of these theories, including evolution, are claimed to be TRUE. It is claimed that they are supported by the evidence, as of now. If evidence shows them to be wrong, science moves on. As of now, no theory of god has gathered anywhere near the amount of evidence that theories like evolution have.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Would anyone possessing evidence against the existence of God in any form or nature please state your case?
Your question is based upon a logical fallacy.
The burden of proof regarding the question of whether or not "god" exists lies with those who claim that "he" does, and not with those who remain skeptical because the utter lack of proof. The assertion of "god's" existence is no different that saying "Bigfoot exists," or "Magical flying three-headed invisible unicorns that crap candy and pee lemonade exist." If you think there is a supreme being, then offer us YOUR proof. That's the way that rational investigation and debate work.
TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I am not arguing that God exists. I guess I should say 'no longer' arguing that God exists.
I quit that after my first reply to _Meke, who is awesome. Once the conversation took a turn from being about religion to science, my focus has been on the relationship between science and God. Even the quote you used here is not an assertion of the existence of God.
My stance is and remains, even after all this banter, that not a single scientific theory that exists today is or provides evidence against the existence of God. It is the idea that scientific theory displaces the existence of God that I object to.
I understand people who prefer to stay in the rational realm of thought and prefer not to waste time wondering about unknowns. I understand people who look to science for a grounded basis of existence. I understand people who say they are atheists, even though I don't always agree that they are in fact atheists.
I am not trying to convince anyone that God exists. I am trying to point out that science does not actually conflict with the existence of God. Humans may interpret it this way, but it is wrong. The only way in which science can be construed to be at odds with God is because God cannot be scientifically proven. For science to actually conflict with the existence of God, it would have to explain all of the unknowns of the entire universe. I don't think it has come that far and I am willing to explore those unknowns myself.
To say:
"There is no scientific evidence of God's existence." Is true. A person who chooses to conclude for him/herself that "I will not believe anything unless there is scientific evidence, therefore I am an atheist." is a logical and rational person. I am not interested in changing your mind, and no, I don't think you are going to hell.
I say:
"There is no scientific evidence that God doesn't exist. Science is very interesting and has a long way to go. The universe is infinite. Infinity alone is something my logical mind cannot experience." After that I guess is where my atheist friends and I part ways.
I think back to my first biology class, when a teacher told me something like "Humans only use 10% of their brains." Really? I possess an organ that isn't functioning at full capacity and that organ is the one that allows me to experience and process the world around me? There must be a way to tap into that and experience more of the world. This is what I call "intellectual evolution". It is my personal belief that if humans learned to use all of their brain we would realize that there is no separation between God and ourselves.
That is my theory. It lacks evidence, I know. Hopefully one day science will find the key that unlocks the door between our minds and bodies. If it doesn't, I guess that's what metaphysics is for.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maud
When you say...
Once the conversation took a turn from being about religion to science, my focus has been on the relationship between science and God.
You are STILL using the implied premise that "god exists." The fallacy is different, however. NOW you are begging the question. Before you can logically explore the relationship between "science and god," you must first establish that both "science" and "god" actually exist. To establish the existence of science is easy. To establish the existence of "god" is not. Until you can, your line of exploration will always fail due to the inherent flaw in the base premise of your idea.
TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
i surrender.
Let me just say now that I have taken considerable time away from this blog, I am capable of accepting defeat.
Let me also say that the first mistake I made was to engage in a debate about the existence of God without first agreeing on a mutually accepted definition of God.
I took my frustrations about this blog to my best atheist friend, a 67 year old man who claims me as his "adopted daughter".
When I mentioned the challenge put forth to me regarding my burden of proof, he said, "And I agree!" I said, "Yeah, I know, but I was baited." He said, "You mean you really stepped into some shit?"
"Yeah, I guess." So I will officially remove my voice from this particular blog, but I will assert my own beliefs on my own blogs. I will still come and check on this thread for any new ideas, but for now, I need to find a place where i can grow. Join me if you wish. I will welcome the same scrutiny I have experienced here. This time, though, my premise won't be so weak.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I am still commenting here, so I didn't really remove myself, but I won't be debating the existence of God anymore.
I'm sad because my comment re: Winnie The Pooh got cut in half. For the record, I will now be debating anyone who wishes to argue about the existence of Heffalumps and Woozles. I bet I'd be more likely to win that debate with this crowd.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
You definitely think like a scientist. I used to think much better but now due to a particularly nasty depression my cognitive processing powers have slowed down considerably.
But basically, just to give you another thing to think about. There is growing speculation and it maybe a new theory that the universe is finite in size and that it's not quite as vast as we may have thought. Now the obvious question, "once it stops what surrounds that?" I don't have the foggiest of ideas but it's an interesting theory no doubt. Sorry for lack of references...
As for the 10% of the brain usage, I've always been told it's more like 3%! Yes that small. However me thinks it may just be impossible to use any more than this simply because I read alot and when I have the energy I'll often read all day many days and I see little to maybe no intelligence gains on my part. If you find a way to access hidden and unused parts of your brain than please fill me in on it!
Right now there are no real remarkable drugs that cause significant cognitive gains. There really only are stimulants like Modafinil, Ritalin, and Concerta, and the dementia drugs like Galantamine, and Arricept. But for somone with no obvious cogntiive deficincies the dementia drugs won't do anything, whereas the stimulants may give you more energy to concentrate. The best way to make some cognitive gains is by reading, conversing, writing about intelligent ideas, and solving brain puzzles. But there is no way that I know of to become vastly smarter, for you would evidently be much smarter if you were to use more of your brain than we do now. But I have done some research and they are working on drugs to improve cognition in brain deficits caused by schizophrenia and depression, so if this applies to normal brains I simply don't know, but it's promising research nonetheless.
As for evolution I think humans and other animals will continue to evolve over millions of years but extremely slowly. You may know more about this than me, I'm not sure. But science could one day bootstrap us to become much smarter creatures if and when cognitive implants and nanomedicine come to fruition.
interesting feedback, and very unexpected...
i have a very solid understanding of all psychiatric disorders, i am a psych nurse. that does not mean that i claim to "understand" them, only that i have constructed my own understanding, which has up to this point, served me well.
however, i have little knowledge about their "origins" or "the best answer" for them....
i believe that mental illness is the physical manifestation of spiritual illness, which is ultimately the feeling of being "cut off." as an atheist, i don't expect you to agree, but i find your statements about drug research interesting...
i think drugs can "help," but also hinder when prescribed inappropriately...they are not the "final" answer, or even the best cure...
there are many, many facets on which one can discuss these things, but before i make another blogging blunder, let me ask rather than assume...
what is your point of reference, and what kind of research have you done or reviewed? what are your most positive conclusions and why?
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
It is evidence against what you have been told or read about God from the Christian perspective. I am not interested in a debate based on the Bible. I also don't think it's really evidence, but hey I agree with your disagreements, so I'll let that go.
I will read your blog though. I think that this discussion is further evidence supporting my blog: http://progressiveu.org/blog/49231-how-religion-keep-us-god
I am enjoying reading the information you provide about evolution. I think evolution is interesting, but I personally haven't cared about it enough to study it to the lengths that you have. I also respect Darwin, and really enjoyed reading the "Origin of the Species".
I don't care to argue against evolution because I don't disagree with it. This discussion became heated when I said that evolution was not evidence against God.
The reason I feel so strongly about this discussion is because I have seen it hundreds of times. I went to Christian school too. I was taught "Creationism vs. Evolution." I used to argue with my grandfather, a genius ex-deacon atheist, all the time.
Ever since I made a decision to not allow the doctrines of my youth dictate my life, the world has made more sense to me. By holding resentment against the church I was still allowing them to govern my thinking. By hating them, they were governing my thinking. I had to forget everything I was taught to "know" and start asking Life my own questions. I can definitely say that I am much happier now, and I credit this choice of mine as being the greatest gift I have to give my daughter.
It is not a matter of convenience for me, as it has been suggested. Convenience would have kept me where I was told to be. I have fought a long hard battle to get where I am.
I can't and don't expect anyone else to share my experience. I do talk about it a lot though because it is THE only evidence I have that backs my claim that God does exist. It is not scientific evidence, I understand that.
What bothers me are these discussions where someone who claims to be an atheist and cites all kinds of evidence of evolution as the basis of their belief. I have a very dear friend who I am in an ongoing debate of this sort with. So yes, it does interest me.
I only get offended when someone tries to belittle my own faith in God with science. I don't believe in God because I am stupid and know nothing about science.
I don't see where science proves that there isn't a God though. I see science as being very weak actually. Science is a human creation. It is the means that we use to understand the physical world around us. It does not explain a lot of things. When people refuse to accept something until it is scientifically proven, I think they leave themselves vulnerable.
For example, people smoked and drank during pregnancy for years. Smoking was fashionable and accepted in the 60's. When people began to question the effects of smoking, tobacco companies waited until the government forced them to include warning labels on cigarrette boxes. The government waited to do this until science produced enough evidence to prove that smoking was harmful. Too bad for all those babies born with defects.
I was pregnant for 3 months before I knew it. How is it that another human being was growing inside me and I wasn't aware of it? Even when my body expanded, I was amazed at the fact that another human was developing inside me. I had no way of sensing what she was experiencing. I understand the science of reproduction, but it didn't answer a lot of questions I had about that life growing inside me.
Human understanding is limited and our science is basically limited to what we can measure using our five senses.
When humans close themselves off to any possibility other than what is scientifically proven they limit their own ability to evolve. And yes, I am talking about intelectual evolution. If there is no reason to explore the possibility of God because it is already decided that God doesn't exist, we have ensured that humans won't ever connect.
If we had accepted that the earth was flat, America wouldn't be the world power that it is today. It is the people who always question, who don't rule out possibilities that are responsible for the discoveries that humans have made while inhabiting this planet.
It is the arrogance of humans that bothers me. Why are we so sure of ourselves. The planet has undergone many changes, and we know that more than once it was wiped out of multiple species. If the dinosaurs could become extinct, why couldn't we? The only power we have to survive as a species is to start asking a whole lot of questions. Not searching anymore is not the answer. If we accept what we already know as the only truth, we are creating our own demise. Humans are being asked by the universe to evolve rapidly, and RIGHT NOW. The planet won't let us keep drilling into her, draining her of her oil without repercussion. We cannot take anything for granted. If we don't learn how to survive without certain manmade commodities and conveniences, we will be even less likely to survive should the planet suffer another resurfacing.
If humans don't learn to stop killing each other and learn to start working with each other the species faces an even greater threat. There are so many possibilities. I for one am not going to wait to see what happens. I am going to do everything I can to promote human evolution in my self, my family and my community.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I'm glad you found a reasonable way to combine a scientific mindset with your faith.
As for my disbelief in God and religion it's basically from a gut instinct, (perhaps a similar gut instinct that allows for people to have a faith in God.)
Basically my instincts tell me God just doesn't make sense to me nor does an afterlife. One thing I've always thought funny is if other animals like the lower apes (some think humans are a type of ape,) don't have a God than why should we? Most people place their belief in God on what the bible tells them, and now where in the bible does it mention a heaven for apes or fish and certainly not amoebas! But yes they are all animals that according to evolution humans all evolved from at some point.
Also from the age I was five it just seemed like more of a wish than a truth that there could be a God; especially an afterlife? How can we magically go from a state of non-conscious or dead to suddenly partying with our old family and friends in some kind of paradise for dead people? That just made certainly no scientific nor rational sense to me.
I do however, go to the Unitarian Univesalist Church here in Marblehead, Mass. And if you are not particularly religious or an atheist like me it's the perfect church for maintaining a community of supporters and friends. It's the communal atmosphere that I so enjoy and admire. Plus the sermons talk about everything from the cosmos and dark matter, to transgenderism! Yes it's that open! And for most people it is usually too open! But I am an ultra liberal and wish to spread the love and have everyone entitled to their own version of happiness here in this life.
So that's my take on things for today.
i almost didn't bother to come and read the new comments posted on this thread, as it is old, and the new comments could have been in reply to any number of participants/ comments....
this thread is the first one where i encountered strong opposition to my "faith," but also where i admittedly embarrassed myself by making false assumptions about those who challenged me...
i love the fact that you claim to be an "atheist," but still attend a church! i am minimally familiar with the Unitarian Universalist Church. I have subscribed to their thread on facebook. it seems like a very progressive organization.
based on your comment, i could just as easily call myself an atheist as anything else.
you said:
"Basically my instincts tell me God just doesn't make sense to me nor does an afterlife. One thing I've always thought funny is if other animals like the lower apes (some think humans are a type of ape,) don't have a God than why should we? Most people place their belief in God on what the bible tells them, and now where in the bible does it mention a heaven for apes or fish and certainly not amoebas! But yes they are all animals that according to evolution humans all evolved from at some point.
Also from the age I was five it just seemed like more of a wish than a truth that there could be a God; especially an afterlife? How can we magically go from a state of non-conscious or dead to suddenly partying with our old family and friends in some kind of paradise for dead people? That just made certainly no scientific nor rational sense to me."
to which i reply:
i completely understand your point of view. the "God" i was taught about in my religious upbringing makes no sense to me whatsoever. i have serious issues with religion. the "God of my Understanding," as AA would put it, is not the same "God" that i learned about in church. the "God of my Understanding" is actually much like what has been described or explained to me as "Dark Matter," so i very much relate to what your church has to say...and i love transgenderism and the cosmos!
most of the followers of the religion i was raised in would have me condemned as a "blasphemer," much in the same manner that Jesus was declared by the Jews of his time...
anyway, the point is that i do not need a religion, and i do not even need a "God," but i DO need people who are likeminded, and who seek a better future for our planet, species, country, community, self and children. therefore i am content to claim to be an "atheist" if that is what it takes, but my *instincts* tell me there is something higher than just my own consciousness at work. if that "something higher" is nothing more than other people who seek the same, i am content. i need no further "understanding."
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
I want to thank you for giving such a clear explanation of the modern theory of evolution. You have to forgive my buddy respectlife. She, like I, was taught by the church that evolution is evil because it suggests that there is no intelligent design (which I don't think the theory of evolution actually does, even though it may want to). We were taught to find the idea of evolution laughable and ridiculous based on the suggestion that humans evolved from monkeys.
Unlike my friend I have left the confines of christian church taught thinking and entered the realm of individual thought. i am not afraid to explore any possibility, evolution being one of them. I honestly don't find evolution to be at all in opposition to God. I think it is simply a reflection of the power of humanity to define life through its own experience and five senses. God gave us that freedom, that "intelligence" that separates us from other species.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
that "intelligence" that separates us from other species.
I bet every species thinks that.
McKinney 08
Perhaps every species does think that, but you evidently believe it.
Side note: I need help with the quoting instructions. How do I quote someone with the cute little box with my name at the top?
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Do you mean I believe that humans are more intelligent that other animals, or that I believe all species feel this way about their intelligence?
Sorry I can't help with the quoting, I don't know how it's done. But I should find out.
McKinney 08
It's embarrassing, being faculty and all. But I've never figured it out. Now I'm inspired to learn. If I figure it out, I'll let you, _Meke, and turtlesuds know how it's done. Will you guys do the same for me? It's a deal.
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
It's embarrassing, being faculty and all. But I've never figured it out. Now I'm inspired to learn. If I figure it out, I'll let you, _Meke, and turtlesuds know how it's done. Will you guys do the same for me? It's a deal.
"quote=(username)" inside of brackets ( [ and] ). To end, "/quote" in the same brackets.
I like blockquote better, personally, because it means I don't have to enter the title.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
i still don't get it, obviously. i tried meke's instructions, which worked, but then you had an objection.
i would like to learn to be more aesthetically pleasing in my interactions here, but it is difficult, i am no "techie." when it comes to technical matters i need very clear step by step instruction...
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
"No, it is evidence that humans evolved as societal organisms."
I'm really trying here.
Without the ability to properly reply, quote or link, I make myself doubly subject to skepticism. So be it.
Meke and Darwin's Beagle, I have a hard time separating the two of you. Let me say here that Meke at first seemed to be the most open, but reacted to my replies with the most hostility. Darwin's Beagle seemed to be more interested in facts than anything and couldn't wait to step on all of us with his knowledge.
To both of you: I admire your relentless answering. I'd like to see some more questioning though.
(Your tendency is to answer humans and question God).
To anyone reading this:
My personal beliefs are based on my own personal life experience and cannot be copied or pasted. My life experience cannot be replicated. It is not subject to testing. It is mine. I do not expect anyone else to understand or to adopt it. At the same time, no one can take it from me or prove to me that it is invalid.
To anyone who has read any part of the Bible and found God to be terrifying and insensitive, please know that your reaction is not reflective of God, but of the human need to interpret and twist the truth to meet intellectual human needs.
To Darwin's Beagle, the question from the beginning was regarding religion, not evolution. My questions were about where human evolution might be taking us and were not adequately answered.
You replied that you thought that humans are probably done evolving. You described humans as having reached an inferior state of evolution as evidenced by our weak bipedal ambulation and our crooked spines.
My question is this:
Why are humans so arrogant? Why are we so unconcerned with the probability that our species will soon be challenged on a global level?
Why do we insist that we know everything? Why are we so reluctant to invest our intellect and resources into probable possibilities vs. known and probable bankruptcies?
If humans are programmed to evolve genetically, why do we need people like you to analyze it? Physiological evolution will or won't occur regardless of your observation or notice. However, if humans don't evolve intellectually and spiritually, our species risks extinction.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Well I won't spend time arguing aout evolution because you are talking about something different than DB and I, and it's also off track from the original conversation, but some words of advice, don't think that because I'm open minded that I don't already have my own opinions about things, and don't mistake firmness for hostility. I really don't know what about my posts you found hostile to be honest.
McKinney 08
Got it. Hostility was a poorly chosen word. What I meant to say is that I felt baited when the first thing you posted was "I am an atheist, but that is subject to change." I found your later replies much more fixed than I expected.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I can see how that statement would be misleading. I didn't mean that my (non)belief could be changed by someone on this message board. I just meant that one never knows what will happen in life and anything is possible. There was a time when I thought that nothing could shake my faith in God. A few years ago I had a religious/spiritual experience which still boggles my mind to this day, but even with that I'm an atheist today. Your signature is very true.
McKinney 08
There is no need to question that which doesn't exist. It doesn't answer. What I question is the evidence for God's existence.
Er ... that is NOT what I said. Any organism that has inheritable traits that affect reproductive success is subject to evolution, and humans certainly fall within that category. So we ARE still evolving and will continue to evolve.
What I said was that it is impossible to predict what we will evolve into because we can not possibly know what variation will be selected for by future environments. But since this point seems to be important to you, let me say this. Judging from the fate of other species the most likely answer is that we are "evolving" toward extinction with no evolutionary descendants.
Also the phrase "inferior state of evolution" is your phrase, not mine. "Inferior" is a relative term. Inferior to what? Inferior to species we evolved from? Probably with respect to some traits ... such as the ability to move around in tree tops, digest plant material, etc. But I do not see how a case could be made that overall we are inferior to them ... and I don't think a case can be made that we are superior to them without knowing a great deal more about their physiology and constraints placed upon them by their local environments.
Inferior to what we could theoretically be? ... ABSOLUTELY. That was the point of that list of suboptimal features.
(1) Certainly not all humans are arrogant or unconcerned about global challenges.
(2) There are economic reasons for the opposition that is out there. If we are to properly meet the challenges we need to adapt ourselves instead of the environment. To do that requires us changing our lifestyles drastically. We need to quit doing some things that are very prosperous for a lot of influential people.
(3) Another source of resistance has been ... Christians. There is a surprisingly large group who deny the potential impact of global warming on the grounds that human activity is too puny to affect God's glorious creation.
I don't know of anybody who insists we know everything. We don't and we never will. But we do have evidence sufficient to draw conclusions that would be foolish to deny.
You'll have to be more specific in regards to "probable possibilities vs. known and probable bankruptcies". ... And even then the answer could easily be beyond my expertise.
Humans aren't programmed to evolve genetically. In fact, our genetic programming tries its best to limit evolution. Repair enzymes are able to correct for 9 out of every 10 mutations. Furthermore a mutation in a somatic cell is a dead end. It is only mutations that occur in sex cells that are of evolutionary importance ... and only in those sex cells that actually become viable offspring.
The reason "people like me" are needed is because we don't understand the process fully. There is a lot more to learn.
What do you mean exactly by "evolve intellectually"? If you mean learn more things ... then that is what "people like me" are trying to do.
What do you mean exactly by "evolve ... spiritually"? If you mean develop more appropriate moral responses, then I would say that traditionally that has been the role of religion. I think that has been a HUGE error. I don't think religion has any monopoly on morals at all. I would like to see ethics put on a more scientific basis. Unfortunately, doing that would not guarantee that we will be on better footing right away. Science learns by making mistakes and learning from them. Eventually we would be on a much better footing but there would almost certainly be some terrible mistakes made in the growing process.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
you mean this thing?
Side note: I need help with the quoting instructions. How do I quote someone with the cute little box with my name at the top?
[ quote=turtlesuds (or other username)] blahblahblah[ /quote]
there is no space between "[" and "quote, /quote"
make sure you're using these: [ ], and not these: < >
"What a crazy random happenstance!"
Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
Read my Blog!
I still don't get it. There is a quote button at the end of each post, when I push it, the whole post gets posted to my new comment. i tried the [ ] thing, and it just had the copied and pasted part I wanted to quote with those brackets there.
I'm sure it's simple, but I really do need step by step instructions sometimes.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I still don't get it. There is a quote button at the end of each post, when I push it, the whole post gets posted to my new comment. i tried the [ ] thing, and it just had the copied and pasted part I wanted to quote with those brackets there.
I'm sure it's simple, but I really do need step by step instructions sometimes.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
When you press the quote button, make sure you put quotation marks around the name that comes after the "=". That's the only thing wrong, I think.
The code should look like this
[ quote = "Meke" ]Meke is totally awesome[ /quote ]
But without the spaces. it should look like this
Meke is totally awesome
McKinney 08
Meke is totally awesome
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
All you had to do was recognize my awesomeness for it to work.
McKinney 08
You have to include the closing tag (/quote enclosed in brackets), otherwise it will mess up the rest of the page.
~C
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No, my life is a testament to the existence of my ancestors.
You mean you'll give credit of your existance to a bunch of monkeys? Sorry, but the idea of being created by a loving God who created me with purpose and in love and who knows even the number of hairs on my head is MUCH more appealing than thinking that the world came out of a particle and my ancestors are monkeys. o.O
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
"It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
~Mother Teresa
Aside from it being incredibly ignorant to state that evolution teaches that humans evolved from monkeys, no one said anything about monkeys.
Just in case you don't understand the basics of a family tree, ancestors are people. Ancestors are your mom and dad, your grand parents, your great grandparents, your great great grandparents, etc.
You cannot exist without ancestors. Therefore, your existence is a testament to the existence of them.
"What a crazy random happenstance!"
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Evolution does teach that humans evolve from monkeys. ; ) No, they didn't. But "Darwin's Beagle" said something about ancestry and Darwin taught evolution and evolution teaches that humans evolved from monkeys and DB's sn indicates that he's a fan of whatever Darwin teaches. Darwin is famous for his evolution theories. Therefore, I concluded the monkey thing.
Yes, I'm highly aware of that. I never said anything against that. But where did we begin? If we evolved from monkeys then monkeys are our ancestors, too.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
"It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
~Mother Teresa
Not that it would change who we as humans are today, but it is not accurate in any way to say that humans evolved from monkeys. Modern Evolutionary Theory teaches that humans and monkeys share a common ancestor.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Monkeys are not our ancestors, rather we evolved from a COMMON ancestor. This means that some species a LONG way back is ancestor to both humans and monkeys. The reasoning behind this idea is that if you look at monkeys (or any other animal) and then look at humans, you will notice a lot of similarities.
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
No, my life is a testament to the existence of my ancestors.
You mean you'll give credit of your existance to a bunch of monkeys? Sorry, but the idea of being created by a loving God who created me with purpose and in love and who knows even the number of hairs on my head is MUCH more appealing than thinking that the world came out of a particle and my ancestors are monkeys. o.O
(1) I'll surprise you and unlike other people below agree with you that we did evolve from monkeys ... however, not from any modern monkey. Modern monkeys and humans evolved from a common ancestor. But some of our ancestors would if they existed today be classified with monkeys.
This is an artist's rendition of PROPLIOPITHECUS which could have been one of our ancestors along with that of all the old world monkeys.
(2) I wonder why you picked monkey ancestry as being degrading? Monkeys are pretty neat animals. We certainly had worm-like ancestors and bacteria-like ancestors as well. You could have used those.
(3) But in any case, where you see monkey- (or worm-, or bacteria-) ancestry as being degrading, I find it ... awe-inspiring! That's the best word for it. It means that everything alive is our cousin. Life is united. We share a common heritage with every living thing.
(4) Your preferred view is that we were made separately by a Christian God. My view is better for a number of reasons, but I'll limit my response here to three:
(4.1) Mine has evidence. I present some of the evidence in this comment to another post.
(4.2) Even though you should have read this paragraph of mine:
You refer to THAT God as "loving". What would he have to do for him to be NOT loving? Even your good buddy, Jesus, had a problem with family values.
(4.3) You say God "created [you] with purpose". OK, I'll bite ... what purpose? I'll bet it is no better than any number of purposes I have found for myself in this life; and I suspect that if you actually do give one ... it will be border on pathetic. (Hint: A God who makes people to worship him has severe self-esteem problems, and a God who makes people so he can have everlasting communion with them in heaven is a bit stupid to be making us on earth and not showing his face).
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
I dont worry about. I dont think about it. I believe there is no reason for me to think about it unless i am scared or bored( i guess i am bored right now)
I believe the mind travels through all possibilities of beliefs, but the point is, it is a belief not a truth. the key is to keep changing your mind, and eventually you will see yourself climb higher and higher and you will find yourself spiritual without being religious.
I recognize and accept beliefs, but it is a belief, not a truth.
I recognize that there is something else out there while at the same time recognizing that nothing is out there.
Although this debate is fascinating, it has gone on entirely too long. I am curious about all religions, not just the pros and cons of Christianity. While I do appreciate them being pointed out to me, I can figure them out on my own. What I don't know is the foundation for most religions. Religion has been absent from my life since birth, and I'm simply curious to know about religion. On that note, If anyone has an interesting religion to tell me about (don't try to convert or anything, I tend to ignore you that way) I'm open. Other wise, I ask that you argue somewhere else.
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
There really aren't all that many religions out there. There are western religions; Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and eastern religions; Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism, and Buddhism.
There is also Mormonism, which is fairly new as far as religions are concerned. It was founded in America.
There are of course growing numbers of off shoots of these. Scientology, Christian Scientists, etc. I don't know much about them.
Personally I like Taoism and Buddhism the best. Taoism is literally "The Way of the Tao". It basically states that in life there is always "The Way". "The Way" is the flow of energy in life. When people flow with the way, they bring peace into their lives. When they flow against "The Way" they create conflict and tension. Feng shui is based on this idea. That energy has its own course, and humans can react to it either by getting in its way, or by flowing with it. It is a very simple concept, but has great implications.
Buddhism is similar but more complicated with concepts like reincarnation. It seeks to transcend physical being and to attain enlightenment here on earth. It suggests that one can find true happiness by detaching completely from the pleasures of the flesh. It is very complex, but very interesting to study.
Hinduism states that the earth is really just a playground, a place where people are just puppets acting out a drama that is fueled by negative vs positive energies. It created the caste system which placed people into castes based on their birth. If a person is born into a poor family, that person will be guaranteed by society to be poor, because that is the position that soul chose for its carnation in this life. Hinduism has many different Gods that represent different aspects of human personality. A family will have specific gods they pray to and offer to depending on their caste system. (Buddhism evolved from Hinduism).
I don't remember much about Confucianism, other than it is somewhat similar to Toaism. You can read "The Art of War" by Lao Tzu to find out more.
There are also pagan religions, which are similar to native American religions but were based in Europe. Ireland, Scotland, and England for example. Tribal religions such as these tend to see God in the planet. They see the elements as being aspects of God, and they believe that by treating the planet as sacred, humans are in turn vessels of God. Humans can access God by performing rituals around the constellations. They usually believe that humans can share power with God when needed in order to influence events on the planet.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
In Judaism, acts are more important than beliefs. In theory, if you follow all the commandments, but are an atheist, you're just as good as someone who follows the commandments and believes in G-d, and better than someone who believes in G-d and does not follow the commandments. Gentiles and Jews have different sets of commandments; the Jewish ones are (obviously) more stringent.
In Christianity, beliefs are more important than acts. You could do evil all your life, but if you honestly repented on your deathbed and accepted Jesus as your savior, you'd be just as good as someone who was good all their life and believed in Jesus, and better than someone who was good but didn't buy into the Jesus concept.
In Islam, it's a combination of the two. Belief is important, but so are acts; the ultimate reward will come to those who are good and believe in G-d, but lesser awards will come to those who do good, and those who believe in G-d. This thus eliminates the question about people who have never been introduced to the Islam concept of G-d.
And those are the three 'western' religions in a nutshell :)
~C
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Nice job. I didn't talk about these because I thought most people know something about the basic beliefs of them. You gave a great comparison of the three.
I think you meant "the ultimate reward will come to those who are good and believe in G-d, but lesser awards will come to those who do good and DON'T believe in G-d."(Sorry for the capitalization I don't know how to underline or italicize online.)
I also think that one major important difference is the role of Jesus. Judaism shares the Old Testament with the Christian Bible. Judaism does not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Muslims also don't believe in Jesus as a Messiah. They have their own revered prophet, Muhammed.
Christianity is the only religion of all religions that claims exclusive access to God. It is the only religion that sets forth that if a person does not claim Jesus Christ as the one and only savior of humans, and therefore denounce all other Gods (some interpret this to mean they should denounce all other religions), that person will go to Hell.
Sadly, churches give this little synopsis much more credence than the Bible does. Hell is not really mentioned much in the Bible. It is usually described by prophets who are verbalizing their dreams and visions. Most of the Bible is written in code. It uses fables and analogies to convey truth. It is obscured because it knows that truth is arrived at in many different ways, and will mean something different to every individual.
That is one reason why the Jews gather a completely different understanding from their Torah than Christians do from their Old Testament. Judaism respects the mystery of G-d and knows that the sacred writings carry a meaning not conveyed by words alone. They developed Kabbalah as a result. Numerology is derived from this. Numerology is the idea that every letter carries a numerical value that translates to a spiritual value.
Therefore, I think that the teachings of Christ get skewed and obscured by churches and people who don't look beyond the literal meaning of words that have been already translated from a completely different language.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
No, I was talking about two different groups of people. One who does good deeds without believing in G-d, and one who does not do good deeds, but does believe in G-d.
Also, Muslims don't see Mohammed as the messiah, like Christianity sees Jesus. They see him more as of a Moses figure... he brought the REAL text of G-d down to Earth, but he isn't the way to G-d.
Honestly, that idea of Christianity is what primarily pushed me away from it. I do think there are other ways to experience G-d, and Jesus' teachings may be the way for some people, but not for everyone.
And you're very right, the Jews do take much of the Hebrew Bible (which includes more than the Torah) very differently from Christians, and part of it is for the reason you say. But there's also the fact that there was a longstanding oral tradition that went along with the written text that the Christians don't use. For instance, people often get upset about the idea that there were so many 'death penalties' in the text, but in practice, it was impossible to sentence someone with death, because they had to have a unanimous opinion from several (5?) judges that the person should get that punishment, but even if all of them agreed, the tradition still says that it can't be done, because there must have been some discrimination in order for so many to come to the same conclusion.
There's also generations upon generations of interpretations of the text. Kabbalah is one interpretation, but there are many others as well. It's certainly an interesting thing to study, even if you don't agree and/or believe in it all.
~C
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Also, Muslims don't see Mohammed as the messiah, like Christianity sees Jesus. They see him more as of a Moses figure... he brought the REAL text of G-d down to Earth, but he isn't the way to G-d.
I didn't say that Islam reveres Mohammed as the Messiah. I said they revered him as a prophet. The idea of a Messiah, or a Divinely Instated One and Only Human Savior of Sinners is exclusive to Christianity.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I know you didn't say Mohammed was considered a Messiah, but the way you introduced the concept of him was as if you were presenting him as a parallel of Jesus, which he is not. As I said, he's more of a parallel to Moses, not Jesus.
Please only use one quote tag. If you use the quote that shows the name of the person you're quoting, you'll want to close it and then respond, then paste it again when you want to quote something else. When you use the blockquote tag, you can just keep it open around the part you want to you, and you don't have to worry about putting in the name.
~C
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the way you introduced the concept of him was as if you were presenting him as a parallel of Jesus, which he is not. As I said, he's more of a parallel to Moses, not Jesus.
That depends on who you talk to. If you ask a Muslim who Jesus was, they'll likely tell you that we was a prophet, like Moses and Mohammed, who brought the word of God to humans.
If you ask a Jew who Jesus was, I think they'd say that he was a prophet, as well (Jsaj is more versed in Judaism than I am, though, so if he reads this, he could confirm or deny this one). I know they won't say that he's the Son of God, that idea of Jesus is exclusive to Christianity.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
Well, first off, I was describing the concept of Mohammed in Islam; he is a parallel to Moses, considered a prophet, but not the end of God's word. He is not considered as Jesus is considered in Christianity, which is what I was pointing out. I realize it may have come out the wrong way, and I apologize.
According to Judaism, Jesus was NOT a prophet, perhaps a rabbi, but he was by no means a prophet. In fact, he was spouting off things that other rabbis of the time were saying, just applying them to himself to give the impression that he was the messiah, not that they were still waiting for him.
I had many a talk with my ex-boyfriend, who happened to be an orthodox Jew, about the perception of Jesus in Judaism. This is all assuming, of course, that we are not talking about Messianic Jews.
~C
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