So, over the last few months, I've come to realize something about dating and women, and perhaps, a small piece of the giant, unsolvable puzzle called their mind's. First though, I should give a little background info...
For most of the 20 years of my life, I've been single. The one stuck on the sidelines to watch while everyone else have fun with their boyfriends/girlfriends and be happy. Now, I have tried many times to date people and get a girlfriend, but it rarely ever made it far. At the time, I wasn't sure what was wrong, thinking that I was really ugly, or maybe had a bad personality, or something else. I was very confused about it. Looking back, I now know its because I have always been too much of a nice guy.
How I came to this realization was after the last time I tried to woo someone and utterly failed like all the times before. As before, I had tried to do stuff like flowers, cards, nice compliments, pay for dinner and the rest of the date, etc... Well, after I had been rejected, the woman I was interested in started to date another guy I knew. Like many of the guys that women I had been interested in before preferred to date, he seemed carefree, confident, and arrogant (you know, the ones that other guys either like to hang out with or thing is a complete jerk). I realized that there had to be something wrong not with me, but my strategy, as there was a pattern going on that finally, after all this time, became obvious to me. It was one of those genuine light bulb turning-on moments. So I started to observe and reflect of things to see if I could figure it out.
Now, I'll admit, while being on the sidelines really, really sucks at times because of how lonely it can be, it has been useful too, as I have also seen a lot by watching others from it. It had given me a large pool of things that I could pick apart, question, and piece together in new ways. Other people's successes, their failures, things that I probably wouldn't have thought to be important before, and many other things. (I'm still now sure why I didn't think to use this mental resource to my advantage earlier.) I sorted, compared, created theories, tested those theories by watching others or talking to them for their thoughts on my theories or for new thoughts I hadn't considered before (I talked to women mainly, but also a few guys who were more successful then most with women too), and I started to make a list of things as they started to click.
These are a few of the things I finally pieced together enough to start making sense to me. Keep in mind that these probably won't be the case with every woman out there, but at least some of it can/will likely apply to the fast majority of women I'd think...
-There are many guys out there and most of us seem to think in a very similar, nice/needy way when it comes to talking to and approaching women they think are attractive. (Likely because of a mix of culture, genetics, or how we are raised.)
-Attractive women have guys approaching them to them all the time. Probably an easy 2-5 per day at least, if not more.
-Because women are approached by so many guys, whom most think and act in similar ways, they become bored with it and have to find ways to sort through all the boring guys that come on them. Most simplest solution is to reject them, first politely and if that doesn't work, in a harsher way usually from what I've seen (Women may do this differently in other areas that have other circumstances then where I live though. I would like to hear some outside opinions on this)...
-A boring guy is usually one that is either a boring guy, or one that always seems to be seeking the woman's attention and always looking to her about what to do next or whats OK with her (basically making her into the leader of every situation and never taking charge). Also insecurity is often common here. (though many guys may not even know that they are insecure. I would know. I used to be really insecure and didn't even realize it.)
-Boring guys are not attractive, as they are easy to predict. This may be an ideal for marriage (I've heard both it is and isn't, though haven't come to a clear conclusion on it yet. Would like to hear some outside opinions on this as well), but with college age women and younger (who most aren't ready to settle down yet) it is a very big turn off.
-Doing things like buying women gifts, giving them lots of compliments, paying for everything, etc, is seen to many women as trying to buy their affection. After thinking back on it, it is needy and makes you look insecure, for you feel you need to do this to win over a woman's affection because you can't do it with out. (But the funny thing is that this is really a major killer according to most of the women I've talked to.)
-Women are attracted to guys with traits like confidence, humor, intelligent (I don't mean just brainy, but also able to make it interesting when talking about it), guys who take the lead and are in charge of their lives for the most part, guys who aren't afraid to make fun of women in a playful way (This is usually what makes these types of men seem like jerks to others as it doesn't make logically sense to why it would work. Keep in mind too that I say 'playful'. If its malicious or abusive, then its going way too far and you will be seen as an abusive jerk to even the women), and unpredictable in small ways (like mixed signals). All of these traits are not often seen by women who are approached often and it shines like a beacon through the barrage of bore that they are used to.
-Things like wealth, power, looks, or anything similar, can be and are attractive to women, but a good (or great) personality will win over all these in a heart beat most of the time.
And the list goes on ...(There are dozens of other things I could list if I wanted too, but it would make this blog a heck of a lot longer then I would wish it to be!) The way I see it now, most guys that are nice or needy are too numerous and it is not a good rut to get into. But the problem is, we are raised to be respectful and nice to women by our parents when we are young. We think its going to be like a Disney movie and if we say these nice things, we will sweep women off their feet, so we do these things. But even when it doesn't seem to work, we do the same thing over and over and over and over, but we never get it through our heads that its not working and we need to stop it and try something else. We just blame it on other things and keep on doing the same things as before.
In closing, it has taken a lot of abstract thinking to come to this conclusion through all of my past thoughts and theories, but it is still far from perfect. There are a lot of things to still learn, as well as finding a way to change myself from being this shy, inexperienced, nice guy that I am, while not changing who I am or acting like someone I'm not. But I feel I've taken the first step towards it already. What I'll most likely need to do now is go out and start trying new things when approaching and talking to women, and see what works, what doesn't, as well as start trying to build up my experience so I can have the confidence of actually knowing what I'm doing, even if its just the most basic things at first. But for now, I can be satisfied that I'm trying a different path and if it doesn't work, I can try a new one, for the others I've been down before were dead ends and it is pointless to go back down them again...
William
(btw, any thoughts on this would be great, even if you disagree. It will help me see how close to the dot I actually am. Just please no flaming. Its counter productive! Thanks.)
Mine's similar, and I agree with your advice. I would add:
-Don't worry about being too nice. Don't try to impress. Figure out what you really want from a mate personality-wise and seek out these people.
-Realize that mega babes probably just wanna be friends - you want someone to meet you halfway, who shares some of your interests, beliefs, flaws, quirks, etc.
-Put yourself out there. Widen your interests, be where the action is, don't puss out. You don't have to become a douchebag to reap the benefits of douchebaggery. Engage everyone in conversation as best you can - as Obama says, No excuses! No excuses!
I like your approach and your tone. Keep it up, and I'm sure we'll all figure our shit out.
Being nice as you said is for suckers. If you listen to some female running for Miss America, she will say, she wants a nice guy. They apparently don’t know what nice is. You were born way too late to be nice these days. They like nice, some them, after they have been abused by Joe Blow for years. It is at this point, only a looser will take them.
Confidence is the key. It is possible someone has taken your confidence. This normally starts at home. You will be amazed at the person who would do this. I came alive after I left home at 18 for college and then the military. Also if you hang with those who find faults with everything you do, this can kill your confidence. Remember the scenes in Spider Man I, about the “largest E. microscope,” (the beginning of movie). This is call hating. This is also taking away confidences. Especially, if you believe in the person who is doing it. You trust what they are saying. Hang with those who encourage, not those who derogate. You may not know it, but I am sure you give confidences to those around you, while they take yours away.
Let love be you mentor!
A girl is not a science experiment, and most "nice" girls reject guts because guys are not looking for the "nice" girl, they are looking for one evening where they can pretend to have a connection with another human being.
I'm commenting as a woman. I have watched my mom's relationships, and been in a few of my own. So, take it for what it's worth.
I like nice guys. Ones who are polite. That doesn't mean that I want to feel the need to wait in my car (especially when I'm driving) for a guy to open the door for me. Opening the door to a building, sure, but it feels plain awkward for me to sit in the car waiting for him to walk around to open the door for me.
I like smart guys. My long term relationship was with a guy who for a long time denied he was smart. He graduated valedictorian of his class, and got into Columbia. He was smart. I dated another guy who became a blacksmith out of high school, and then joined the military. He was the type to do things with his hands, rather than with his mind. While that's great, I'm not attracted to men like that. I'm smart, and I want a guy who I can talk to who will actually understand what I'm talking about, not a guy that I'd have to tutor through college.
I've had many people, including guys, who have told me I'm very attractive and beautiful. Yet, very few guys approach me. A couple will flirt with me harmlessly, because I'm sort of unavailable to them (too young). One was set up with me by a couple of coworkers. Other than that, I've had very few guys approach me. So really, if you like a girl and find her attractive, don't be afraid to make the first move. Not all girls have guys chasing after them, and it can ruin a girl's self esteem if no one pays her any attention.
Being needy is a turnoff. One guy I dated called me while I was sick, despite the fact that I told him several times (via text) I couldn't answer the phone (my voice was gone). Rather than take me on my word, he kept calling 2-3 times a day for a week. It got real annoying real quick. Another guy would want me to spend all my time with him, to the point that he'd get upset with me if I wanted to go do something with my friends.
As far as gifts go, I don't like it when guys get extravagant gifts for me, but not necessarily because I think they're trying to buy my affection. Rather, I don't like people spending money on me because I can so rarely spend money on them, and I don't express affection with gifts; I express it by touching... hugs, kisses, cuddling, etc.
~C
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I think you are looking at females in too much of a cartoony, black and white perspective. We gals are just like you guys in many ways. Don't think about us like a mysterious strange species meant for study.
Here's something to think about: We all pretty much like nice guys. Speaking broadly, of course.
There are some girls who get caught in the vicious cycle of falling for "bad boy" after "bad boy", but please don't become one of those. Be yourself. I bet there will be a few less restraining orders.
Thanks for all of your thoughts on the matter. They have given me a few more things to think about. But let me add elaborate on a few things that I didn't put into my original post.
First, I think that when women say they want a "nice guy," what it really means is that that's only part of their ideal guy. They also want him to be a bunch of other things added in there too, but its just faster to say nice guy. (At least that's my guess)
Also, as I mentioned before, for me, this is a whole new way of thinking about the whole subject on women and dating. Its still a very new concept to me, and just like learning anything else, you have to start with the basics before you can understand the in depth, advanced things. It may seem like I think in black and white now, but that's because I still have a lot to learn and a long ways to go yet.
Regardless, I can still guarantee women think differently then men do. Ladies, if you could actually see how a lot of guys that are in the same boat I'm trying to get out of think and how they see women, you'd be surprised. Much of what women do, like finding it unattractive how guys will buy them gifts and dinner and all that on a first date and then rejecting them for it, doesn't make any logical sense to us. Trust me, I would know. I used to be very confused on that before. To women, this makes sense, but most guys just don't get it. That's why they will do it over and over again. So that's why a lot of men DO think of women like a different species. You don't make sense in the way we think of things.
Or another thing that most guys don't even realize, because it wouldn't make any logical sense to them, is the tests that women do to them. Like pouting for something, or anything like that, that seems to be a test who far they can get away with something, and who's in control of a situation between a guy and a girl. Women do that all the time, but a lot of guys can't see it, even though its literally standing there right in front of their faces. And if you did try to explain it to them, for the most part, it wouldn't make sense to do that. I mean, why would a guy want or even need to do that?
By all means though, I'm not saying that men and women can't ever think alike either. Obviously. Otherwise there would be little that men and women could share interests on and connect with each other. Like most people for example, both men and women, tend to like to have an intelligent conversation with one another at least every once in a while. I'm no exception to this. I love just talking to people, no matter guy or woman, about those deep, thought provoking topics about the unexplainable, or things like interests and hobbies/pastimes that aren't really common, but are interesting to talk about.
I'm hoping this all makes at least a little sense.
Since I'm not sure exactly who you're replying to (you didn't use the reply link), I'll respond.
Well, duh. You can't honestly tell me that guys only have one criteria for girls (whether that criteria be that the girl is hot, smart, whatever). If the girl ONLY has that quality, she's not going to be any fun to be around with in the long term. But, being a 'nice guy' is one of the requirements that must be met up with first.... if a guy is a jerk, chances are he's not going to make it far enough to meet our other requirements.
This is one of the those non-black and white things. I'm sure some girls do this, but I don't know a single girl who will reject a guy because he brings her flowers and buys dinner on the first date. It makes about as much sense to me as it does to you. I reject a guy because:
1) I get a bad vibe from him. Call it woman's intuition if you can't explain it another way.
2) I'm not attracted to him. Whether this be on the first date because he has bad hygiene or the 5th date because he can't carry on a conversation well.
3) The relationship isn't healthy.
Maybe I just know some feminine guys, but I know guys who will use their own tactics to get what they want, whether it be seduction, tickling, gifts, or even begging.
~C
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I once had a relationship with a girl who was carrying a brain tuned like that one of a male! Lol.
Quite extraordinary an experience having been with a female like that.
She didn’t like to hang around with girls while hardly had any real female friends.
Any guy who tried to act (stupid) funny with her, found himself stripped from self-confidence, lol.
Extraordinary she was!
I feel you, loud and clear!
Let love be you mentor!