The Basic Structural Components of the Universe

darwins beagle's picture

A recent poll by the Pew Research Center shows that while the public has a generally positive opinion about science, there are areas in which the general public and scientists disagree. For instance, 87% of scientists but only 32% of the general population believe humans and other organisms evolved by natural means. 84% of scientists but only 49% of the general population believe that global warming is a consequence of human activity. 82% of scientists but only 69% of the general population believe that vaccinations of children should be required.

These differences can certainly have an effect. Former Playboy bunny, Jenny McCarthy has popularized the idea that mercury-containing thiomersal preservatives in vaccines has led to the increased incidence of autism. Numerous scientific studies show this not to be the case. For one thing, the incidence of autism continues to rise even though thiomersal is no longer used in vaccines. Despite the convincing evidence of science, the McCarthy’s protestations to the contrary have led many parents to the conclusion that it is best to withhold vaccines from their children. According to one estimate, this has resulted in over 46,000 cases of preventable illness and almost 200 preventable deaths. Considering that they have all involved young children at the beginning of their lives, this is a sad story indeed.

Who is to blame for things like this? One idea is that scientists and educators do a poor job of explaining their ideas to the general public and students. Another idea is that America is saturated with pure wackaloon bullshit from its very core to its outer fringes. I don’t see these hypotheses as being mutually exclusive. I suspect they are both correct.

I have been trying to get a business adventure off the ground and there have been a lot of unforeseen problems. That has kept me very busy and my mind has not been much on blogging. But things are beginning to settle down a bit. So I hope to resume a more regular science blogging schedule. I cannot prevent the wackaloons from spouting off their crap. I do not have the power or the moral right to do so. But I can do a little something by trying to explain scientific concepts to the best of my ability and challenging specific instances of scientific misrepresentations.

I want to resume my science blogging by try to present some of the basics of science as I see and practice it. I am a reductionist scientist. I like to take a “bottoms up” approach. I think that the best way to understand something is to have a good foundation of the principles that underlie that phenomenon. I am a biologist. But biology is not the foundation of science. Biology is based upon chemistry and chemistry is based on physics. Physics is the foundation of science.
Thus, I believe that a strong foundation in physics helps one develop a good scientific understanding of the universe. To get that strong foundation I want to ask the question … “What is the ultimate structural component of the universe?”

Let’s take an historical approach to the question. Early Greeks were the first to ask that question. The question was, of course, formed a bit differently. They did an Einstein-like thought experiment. Suppose you had a knife as sharp as a knife could possibly get. Suppose you take a piece of matter and cut it in half. Then you take one of those pieces and cut it in half. Suppose you keep doing that until there is nothing left for you to cut. What would you end up with?

Some argued that you would never “end up”. They were the mathematicians. To them you could go on forever cutting things into smaller and smaller pieces. Others, most notably the philosophers Democritus and Lucretius, believed that you would ultimately end up with a piece of matter that you could no longer bisect. This would be the ultimate ground of the universe. They called that piece of matter the atom.

There is beauty in that idea. If it were true then matter would be made of a single substance. You can’t get much more elegant than that, can you? But it had problems, even then. If matter is made up of a single substance, how do you get things as intricate as a snowflake and as amorphous as raindrop, or as organized as living bird and as simple as a rock? How could a single basic building block produce so many different forms with so many different properties?
In order to explain this people came up with the idea of “essences”. According to this paradigm, matter was made up of different proportions of four essences; earth, air, heat, and water. So instead of having a single atom, you essentially had 4.

The difference between a base metal like lead and valuable one like gold lay in its relative compositions of earth, air, heat, and water. If one could add or subtract the right amount of the 4 elements, lead could be converted into gold. Such a discovery seemed like a sure fire get-rich-quick scheme. Indeed, it spawned the field of alchemy.
As science progressed, it became obvious that the earth/air/heat/water idea would not work. Matter seemed more complicated than that. There were a large number of things did not seem to be able to be converted into anything else. And that included both lead and gold.

The Russian, Dmitri Mendeleev, showed that you could make some type of sense of these things if they were arranged in a pattern. That pattern is what is now called the Periodic Chart of Elements. Mendeleev’s periodic chart was by no means complete. There were numerous holes in it. Here is where Mendeleev’s genius showed through. He predicted that we would eventually fill those holes and what we would fill them with would have certain predictable properties. He was right!! As new elements were discovered they fit in the periodic chart exactly as Mendeleev had predicted.

That is always very satisfying. But there was a problem. It presented a very muddled picture. Where Democritus and Lucretius’ atom had the universe made of a single type of atom and the “essence” theory had 4, Mendeleev’s picture (if you look at a modern periodic chart) has the universe made of between 111 and 118 different types. That’s not particularly elegant.

Well science progresses. All of Mendeleev’s atoms showed properties of electromagnetism. Perhaps these atoms were not the ground of the universe. Perhaps they could be broken down into smaller substances yet … substances that carried electrical charge. Perhaps, … but then if that were the case, why could no one actually break them down?
Well, they already had … they just didn’t know it. The scientific piece of equipment that had done so was the cathode ray tube. The thing that would one day morph into television screens throughout the world.

Cathode ray tubes emit a beam of particles. These particles can be deflected by an electromagnetic field in such a way that suggests they have a negative charge to them. In 1896 British physicists, J. J. Thomson, John A. Townsend, and H. A. Wilson, made careful measurements on the charge needed to bend the cathode ray beam. By doing so they could estimate the mass of the particles in the beam and their charge. They found that the charge was about the same as that of the smallest ion known (the hydrogen ion) but the mass was over a thousand times less. This was way too small to be an atom itself. It was the first “subatomic” particle discovered. It was the electron.

So, if there were a negatively charged electron, there should be positively charged particles as well … right? Everybody thought so. And they even had a good idea about what it was. The smallest particle known to contain a positive charge was a hydrogen ion. Nothing smaller had ever been seen. Furthermore, its positive charge was equal in magnitude to the unitary negative charge carried by an electron. Thus, it seemed that a hydrogen ion was likely to be the elementary positive charged particle. But proving that was not easy. It was not until 1918 that Ernst Rutherford succeeded in doing so.

Rutherford worked with newly discovered radioactive compounds. When they spontaneously decayed they would shoot out an alpha particle. Rutherford invented a device to detect these particles. It was a scintillation detector which was a device filled with nitrogen gas. Whenever, an alpha particle hit a nitrogen molecule it would cause the nitrogen to fluoresce. Rutherford showed that during the fluorescence, there was an unmistakable signal of hydrogen ion present. Where did this hydrogen ion come from? The only place was from the nitrogen. Thus, within a nitrogen atom were hydrogen ions. Thus, Rutherford reasoned hydrogen ions were indeed the elementary positive charged particles. He called them “protons”.

So, the universe suddenly became a lot more elegant. No longer were there over a hundred types of elementary particles, there were only 2 … electrons, carriers of negative charges, and protons, carriers of positive charges.

Alas, there were problems. All seemed fine for hydrogen. It made sense. The atom being electrically neutral had a single electron and within its nucleus was a single proton. The calculated weight matched exactly as predicted. With electrons weighing so little, virtually all the mass of the hydrogen atom was in its proton. Thus, when the atom lost its electron and became a positively charged ion, all that was left was a proton. Great … right?

Well it was great for the hydrogen atom. The problem, however, lay with all the other elements. Every one of them were heavier than they were supposed to be. For example, oxygen has eight electrons and eight protons. So it should weigh the same as eight protons … right? Wrong! It weighs about the same as sixteen protons … twice as much as it by all rights should.

What was going on? The best people could come up with was that perhaps within the nucleus of an oxygen atom were eight more protons that had somehow combined with eight electrons to be electrically neutral. Was there a better answer?

Again the answer had been seen but not yet realized. It was well known that when radioactive elements emitted an alpha particle, if that alpha particle hit certain light elements (lithium, beryllium, and boron) a high energy radiation was produced. At first physicists thought that this was probably some type of strange gamma radiation. In 1932, James Chadwick showed that this radiation was particle-like, had about the same mass as a proton, and was electrically neutral. Thus, the third particle of matter had been discovered – the neutron.

We now know that most oxygen atoms have 8 electrons, 8 protons, and 8 neutrons. Neutrons solved the problem of the extra mass in atomic nuclei. It looked like a pretty satisfying picture of the universe. Matter was composed of three different types of particles, electrons, protons, and neutrons.

Well, not so fast. Cracks began to appear in the three particles of matter theory. Each day the earth is bombarded by numerous cosmic rays. These are very high energy particles that come smashing into our atmosphere. When they do that they can create subatomic particles. It had been noted that on rare occasions these events would be recorded on scintillation detects. Some of these events seemed to be a little strange.

In 1936, physicist Carl Anderson, decided to study these events. He must have spent quite a bit of time looking at his scintillation chamber. He eventually collected enough observations that he could make some calculations. There was a particle that would occasionally enter his scintillation chamber that behaved almost like an electron. It was negatively charged like an electron. It’s negative charge was the same as that of an electron. However, it was more massive than an electron. What could it be?

Scientists were busy inventing particle accelerators. Particle physics was about to become an important field giving us valuable clues about the ultimate ground of matter that no one had ever dreamed of before. With the advent of particle accelerators, particles like Anderson had seen were produced in abundance and on demand. Their mass was almost 200 times that of an electron … which is still much smaller than that of a proton. So where did this fit into the scheme of things? It didn’t. In fact, its discovery prompted one physicist to remark, “Who ordered that?” But in any case, another subatomic particle, the muon, was discovered. The number of subatomic particles now jumped up to 4.

Well, it turned out particle accelerators produced all sorts of subatomic particles. All of a sudden, things did not look so elegant. Instead of 3 elementary particles (or even 4 with the inclusion of the muon) there were dozens and dozens with no reason to suspect there might be an end. Perhaps the subatomic particles were themselves composed of particles that were more basic than themselves. In agreement with that was the finding that many of these subatomic particles could be changed from one into another. So what were the fundamental building blocks of matter?

For an answer to that question we can thank Buddhism and the novel Finnegan’s Wake. Or more accurately we can thank physicist, Murray Gell-Mann. Gell-Mann found a way of arranging a class of subatomic particles (spin ½ baryons) into an order he called The Eight-fold Way (after the Buddhist Eight-fold Path to reach nirvana). Gell-Mann’s method involved arranging these baryons into conceptually into octets. By doing so, baryons with similar properties grouped together very well.

Furthermore, the principals he used to group the spin ½ baryons could be used to group spin 3/2 baryons as well. In doing so this class of baryons should group into decuplets (groups of 10). However, when he did this, there was a bit of a problem. One member of the decuplet was missing. It had not yet been found.

As it turns out this was not so much of a problem as it was an opportunity. By looking at the space such a particle should fill, Gell-Mann was able to predict that a particle with those exact properties should be found. Particle physicists were more than happy to test such a prediction. All they had to do was fine tune the accelerator to the energy level that Gell-Mann said the particle should have and see if the particle was produced. And OUILA! There it was … just as Gell-Mann predicted.

Another thing that one could derive from Gell-Mann’s theory was the idea that protons and neutrons must be made of 3 more basic particles tightly bound together. Gell-Mann called these particles “quarks” (from a line in the novel Finnegan’s Wake -- “Three quarks for Muster Mark!”).
Gell-Mann’s Eight-fold Way has evolved into the Standard Model of Particle Physics. In this model matter is made up of 16 different particles. There are 6 quarks (up, down, charmed, strange, top, bottom); 6 leptons (electron, muon, tao, electron neutrino, muon neutrino, tau neutrino); and 4 force carriers (photon, gluon, Z and W boson)

That is where the state of scientific knowledge is today concerning the basis for matter. In many ways it is a satisfying picture. It covers everything that we know and no observation has ever contradicted it. It reduces the number of elementary subatomic particles from several dozen down to 16.

Or does it? In point of fact, it is actually twice as bad as that. We now know that for each of those matter particles there is a corresponding anti-matter particle. So the real number of elementary particles is 32. Thirty-two particles! Why so many? Couldn’t the universe have started out with fewer? Remember that Democritus and Lucretius wanted there to be a single one.

There is a practical point as well. If the universe came into existence on its own, as most scientists think, then does this model mean that 32 different subatomic particle species had to spring into existence together?

Physicists have been looking for a more elegant solution to the question for a long time. Perhaps they have already found it. The solution that is most favored by physicists today is “String Theory”. String theory postulates that these 32 particles are all formed from a single type of particle … a very tiny vibrating string.
So how could a very tiny vibrating string give rise to the “particle zoo” of the Standard Model? The only way is for the strings to be vibrating in different dimensions.

We live in a world of 3 spatial dimensions. Take a piece of paper. Draw a line in any direction you want on that paper. That represents one dimension. Then from an end point of the line you have just drawn draw another line that is perpendicular (90o ) to the first line. That represents the second dimension. Then from the point where those two lines intersect, hold a pencil that is straight up or perpendicular to the other lines. That is the third dimension. For everything we normally do, that is it. There are no more spatial dimensions.

One problem with string theory is that to produce the particle zoo, three spatial dimensions are not enough. One needs nine, or even more likely ten. For there to be 10 spatial dimensions there would need to be a point at which you could visualize 10 different lines coming off in which every line is perpendicular to every other line. That is something I certainly cannot visualize. And I don’t think anybody else can either.

String theorists tell us that simply because we cannot visualize these extra dimensions do not necessarily mean that they don’t exist. Perhaps, 7 of the 10 dimensions are folded up. Another way to think of it is that when the universe expanded during the Big Bang, that expansion involved only 3 dimensions and the other 7 never expanded at all.

Quantum physics tells us that there is a limit to how accurately it is possible to observe the universe. As we look at smaller and smaller spaces we become less and less able to make out details such as the energy that resides within that space. At some point our uncertainty about the energy within that space approaches infinity. This distance is called planck’s length. It is equal to about 10-35 meters. This is a very small space, much smaller than a proton (the nucleus of a hydrogen atom). This is the level where string theorists postulate the other 7 dimensions arise. It is also the size of the vibrating strings.

The beauty of string theory is that it is consistent with what we already know. Furthermore, it reduces the particle zoo from an inelegant 32 to an elegant 1. It may even be true. But at this time, despite the fact that many scientists are working on it, I do not consider it science.

Why not? The reason is, up to this point, string theory has not made a single verifiable prediction. It COULD be true. But it may not. Until string theory does make a verifiable prediction it lies outside of science’s ability to test it. That means it is not yet properly science.

We cannot look at things directly at the level of planck’s length. Indeed, we will NEVER be able to do so. By definition at that level things become infinitely uncertain. In order to verify string theory we will have to look at things much larger than the strings themselves. What offers us the best chance of doing so?

The answer to that question is more powerful particle accelerators. The most powerful one ever designed (the Superconducting Super Collider which was at one time being built in Texas) unfortunately did not survive a Congressional line item budget cut. The Swiss-built Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is coming on line and having its bugs worked out. Will it be able to produce high enough energy collisions that would allow us to detect events close enough to planck’s length to verify string theory? Not without a further clarification from string theorists about what we should expect to see. Will they be able to do that? I frankly don’t know. I don’t rule it in or out. But I look forward to seeing what new things at finer and finer levels the LHC will show.

afungus amongus's picture

[String theory] may even be true. But at this time, despite the fact that many scientists are working on it, I do not consider it science.

I just read a book which convinced me of this - The Trouble with Physics by Lee Smolin. He calls string theory "a proposal for a scientific theory" and likens it to Ptolemy's theory of epicycles: it is based on a beautiful principle, but becomes convoluted when you try to explain actual observations. Ptolemy wrestled with such a mess of circles, and string theorists with such a mess of dimensions, that the theory lost its elegance. And until new patterns emerge from these explanations, the theory predicts nothing.

The chart of elementary particles raises difficult questions:
-what are "generations"? Do columns of particles share properties, like those on a periodic table? Why are the force carriers are arranged in that order?
-how do particles transmit forces? Do they spray gauge bosons (force carriers) all around them and if so, why don't the particles gradually lose energy and eventually run out of bosons? How do they decide when and where to shoot off bosons? When we see a force between particles, can we reach in there and scoop up some bosons? Are attractive forces carried by bosons with negative kinetic energy?

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

First a caveat: I am a biologist. The questions you are asking would probably be much better answered by a physicist. But it was my blog, so here goes.

(1) What are generations?

Look again at the chart. Ignore the gauge bosons (force carriers) and concentrate on the fermions (quarks and leptons). It is the fermions that are arranged in generations. All subatomic particles have certain quantum numbers associated with them. Quantum numbers include properties such as spin, charge, and some others. Each row (not column) of fermions have the same quantum numbers. Thus the up, charmed and top quarks all have a charge of +2/3. The down, strange, and bottom quarks all have a charge of -1/3. The electron, muon, and tau meson have charges of -1. The electron, mu, and tau neutrinos are all neutral.

What makes them different is their mass. The particles in the higher generation have more mass than particles in the lower generation. Thus on a mass scale it is:

up quark < charmed quark < top quark
down quark < strange quark < bottom quark
electron < muon < tau meson

All the neutrinos are very low in mass. To The difference with those is that the electron neutrino is associated with an electron; a mu neutrino is associated with a muon; and a tau neutrino is associate with a tau meson.

2. Do column particles share properties?

No, but row ones do.

3. Why are the force carriers arranged in that order?

I'm not totally sure what you mean. They are set out to the side because they are different from quarks and leptons. I do not think the order from top to bottom has a significance however.

4. How do particles transmit forces?

They exchange gauge bosons. For the strong nuclear force the exchange involves gluons, for the weak nuclear force the exchange involves W and Z particles, for electromagnetism the exchange involves photons, for gravity the exchange involves gravitons.

Gravitons are not listed here. The reason for that is that at this point in time we do not have a theory of gravity that is consistent with quantum mechanics. Until we do we do not know how gravitons should fit into this picture.

5. Do they spray gauge bosons all around them, and if so why don't the particles gradually use energy and run out of bosons?

Yes, that is exactly what they do. The reason they do not "run out of bosons" is because the gauge bosons are virtual particles. There is no law of conservation of virtual particles. These particles only exist for very tiny periods of time. They only temporarily violate the law of conservation of mass/energy. Once they come out of nowhere they go back to nowhere leaving the balance sheet intact.

6. How do they decide when and where to shoot off bosons?

They are "shoot[ing] off bosons" continually. Most will be reabsorbed. Some will hit other particles capable of absorbing them.

7. When we see a force between particles, can we reach in there and scoop up some bosons?

No ... when we "see" the force the boson is absorbed. I cannot imagine any "scoop" that we could possibly use that is small enough to get in there and scoop up any free bosons that may be around.

8. Are attractive forces carried by bosons with negative kinetic energy?

Not to my knowledge, but I don't know.

The idea of "negative energy" that I am familiar with involves gravity. As you know mass=energy (divided by the speed of light squared). As you also know there is a law of conservation of mass/energy. If that is so then, how did the universe come about in the first place. It seems that once the mass was made, it violates the law of conservation of mass/energy. One way around that is to consider gravity a form of negative energy. Since the universe looks pretty flat it seems like negative energy associated with gravity would exactly offset the positive energy in mass. This would leave the universe with zero net energy and no violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy.

Cheers,

DB

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

afungus amongus's picture

-What a coincidence, there is a trio of fundamental particles with each set of quantum numbers! For example why should up, charmed, and top all have the same charge AND spin?
-Can the higher generations decay into lower ones, and if so how are they fundamental? Aren't these particles composed of whatever pieces they decay into?
-We have 4 force carriers, and 4 sets of quantum numbers. Spooky! Coincidence, or hint at something deeper?
-Photons carry momentum - when you shine light on a thin metal sheet, it recoils backwards. Say you have a proton and an electron. How can trading photons bring them closer together?

I don't expect you to be able to answer everything, but this has been informative for me. My undergrad physics classes were full of equations (quantum, relativity, thermo, electromagnetism, circuit analysis, optics, etc.) but nothing specifically about particle physics. I reckon this is grad school stuff.

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

(1) Concerning quantum numbers --

The particles have more quantum numbers associated with them than just charge and spin. I used those two quantities because I have the best understanding of them. They also have quantum numbers associate with parity, C-parity, T-parity, and lepton or baryon number. I can't explain very well what these numbers actually represent in the real world ... sorry.

But in any case, as I understand it up, charmed, and top quarks share ALL these quantum numbers; down, strange, and bottom quarks share all their quantum numbers as well. The leptons, electrons, muons, tau meson, share all their quantum numbers; as do the electron, mu, and tau neutrinos.

Thus, sharing the same quantum numbers is what makes them members of the same horizontal group on that chart.

If you were to search the universe looking for those elementary particles, you would be very hard pressed to find any other than the first generation particles. Virtually all ordinary matter is composed of first generation particles. The reason is that the ambient energy levels (equivalent to about 3 degrees kelvin) is not sufficiently high to cause any of the higher generation particles to be produced. To find them you would need to look in exotic environments; just outside the event horizon of a black hole, around high energy cosmic structures like quasars, gamma ray bursts, or supernovas, and inside stars. Or be fortunate enough to observe them being created when a very high energy cosmic ray smacks into our atmosphere. ... Or you could build a particle accelerator capable of making the high energy collisions needed to make them.

(2) Concerning particle decay:

The 2nd and 3rd generation particles will most certainly degenerate if left by themselves. I do not know what they break down into. My personal opinion is to agree with you that this makes them not really fundamental properties (which is what string theory says anyway), but perhaps a particle physicist would have a different idea on that point.

(3) Concerning force carriers and classes of elementary particles;

I think that it is coincidence and doesn't point to anything higher. There happen to be 4 force carriers because we don't have gravity incorporated into the picture yet. Once we do then perhaps we will have a fifth force carrier -- the graviton -- to offset the symmetry.

(4) Concerning photons as force carriers.

The photons that carry the electromagnetic force are not quite the same as regular photons. All force carriers are virtual particles. That means that the instant they are detected they disappear. I don't think anyone can measure their wavelength. Without that, I think you cannot tell how much momentum the photon carries.

I know that they act differently than regular photons. Two magnets will repel (or attract) each other with a lot more force than you get any visible light to push them away. Yet both are mediated by photons. But I cannot explain the reason behind it. I simply do not know. Perhaps someone with better knowledge can fill us both in, or once you find out the answers you can tell me.

Cheers,

DB

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

and thanks again DB! had to comment so i can keep up with developments in the conversation, if there is one....you have a way of shutting people up, so i doubt there'll be much other than other nods and applause...we love you:). thanks for sharing with us. i am so glad you can see and mention the importance of blogging about such things...and that we are worthy of your shared insight.

and oh yeah, i had to promote!

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

cosmic's picture

You partly blamed education for the prevalence of scientific misunderstandings among the general American public. My initial reaction was that- up until muons (admittedly probably only a third of the way through your blog)- the science, and even the scientists you described, were familiar to me. And I am a product of the public school system. So is American public education really substandard?

But then I realized I hadn't been exposed to material like this until I was a senior in high school. What's worse, it was in an AP chemistry class- not a standard class available to students of all academic levels. True, students learn basic physics as early as sixth grade, but there is a difference between "knowing about" something and actually understanding it. And prior to high level classes I took late in high school, I was only exposed to the "knowing about" variety of science (and most of everything else).

So... maybe there is widespread educational inadequacy- or even failure?- in American public schools.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

regarding:

"So... maybe there is widespread educational inadequacy- or even failure?- in American public schools."

The inadequacy is not limited to science, but is also prevalent in history. the inadequacies in regards to science are not limited to physics, but are also evident in regards to biology, sociology, anthropology, psychology and sexuality (although if all of the aforementioned were covered adequately, there would be no need for extra attention to sexuality).

i did not learn about physics in school at all. granted, i attended a private christian school from 5th to early 9th grade, so i can't attest to what i missed, but i do not think that the current curriculum in standardized public schools is adequate.

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

caliban's picture

Putting this out there was a great thing, all your information was well ordered and it was a pleasure to read. I don't think anyone could find fault with this. You hit on a couple things that have always troubled me, and im taking some college level physics when classes roll round again. Our professor tends to talk about string theory like it is an established fact, and not just an idea. It also really bothers me that whenever i get into a debate about evolution, most people standing against it have no real grasp of what it actually is, just that people somehow came from apes, and we all know people are smarter than apes. *sigh* It hurts when you think that evolution has already been proved... Theodosius Dobzhansky's experiments with the fruit fly should have dispelled most of the doubt about that, as well as the extensive fossil record. Even the bible has support for evolution. Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 states that God created the earth and all creatures in 7 days. But it is also stated in 2 Peter 3:8 that "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Christians will argue that this is not meant to be taken literally, but come on. Most of the bible is figurative. A thousand years was the longest period of time you could communicate to anyone 2000 years ago, when the bible was written. Good luck trying to get across evolution, let alone the idea of billions of years. Even the catholic church accepts the idea that God could have used evolution to create the earth, and the big bang to create the rest of the universe. If you ask me, that puts forth a pretty elegant picture in the end.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Put your best foot forward, just watch what you step in..."

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

... for those kind words.

Most string theorists I read and talk to are upfront about its lack of empirical confirmation. Another thing that bothers them is that there are 5 different mathematical formulations of the theory that are all consistent with the facts as we know them. In science what makes a theory good is NOT that it is compatible with anything possible, it is that it is compatible only with those things we can confirm. In other words, a good theory tells us that some things are not possible (Indeed that is where the possibility of falsification comes into play). So string theory must be considered provisional at best until these problems can be resolved.

It is good that you are aware of Dobzhansky's fruit fly experiments. You did not elaborate so I don't know how familiar you are with them. One experiment of his that I find impressive is that beginning in the late 1950's he began selecting fruit flies based on size. Big ones mated with big ones, small ones mated with small ones. He continued this process and by the mid 1960's he had two groups of flies derived from the same original population that (1) would not interbreed with each other, and (2) would not interbreed with control flies from the original population either. In other words, for all intents and purposes these were two new species of flies which evolved from a common parental population in less than ten years.

I am an atheist. I disagree with you concerning the bible's support for evolution. The Genesis 1 account was clearly intended to be understood as representing 24-hour days. It says, "Evening and Morning, day 1" etc. Furthermore, in Exodus in the 10 commandments the justification for keeping the Sabbath holy is that it is the 7th day and on day 7 God rested. If a day=1000 years then that justification becomes shaky.

It is true that early on there were theologians advocating a God day=1000 years, but the reason behind that was to justify obvious errors within the bible. The pre-Christian Jews who advocated that did so because the "Adam & Eve" story has a big fault in it. God tells Adam that he may eat the fruit from any of the Garden except the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He also tells him that if does so "on that day, he will die". He does eat of it, and he does die ... except it is 935 years later. So those Jews who advocated a "1 God day=1000 years", resolved the problem by saying that what God actually meant was not that they would die that same day but would die within a thousand years of it.

The early Christians who advocated the "1 God day=1000 years" theory did so to resolve the problem of Jesus not showing up for his second coming. In Matthew he says to his disciples that some of them will still be alive when he comes back for his parousia (2nd coming). It was becoming apparent that they wouldn't be, The phrase from Peter 3:8 that you chose to quote was telling the faithful to not worry so much about it. We all know that God has a funny sense of time. The phrase that you did not chose to quote that comes right after the one you did chose says ... "and a thosand years is like a day" So not only was Peter telling the faithful that to God a day is like a thousand years, he is telling them a thousand years is like a day. I have always marveled that Christians like to quote this ... to me it is saying God has a SEVERE problem telling time.

Finally, the early Jews could most definitely indicate lengths of time longer than 1000 years. ... or at least they could indicate numbers higher than 1000. In Samuel, the story of the founding of the unified monarchy. The first king was Saul. David began his military career as one of his generals, but Saul turned away from him after a spectacular military victory he heard the people saying "Saul had killed his thousands, and David had killed his tens of thousands". So if the bible had wanted to, it could certainly have used the phrase that "to God a day is like tens of thousands of years".

So I do agree with Christian fundamentalists that bible meant a 6 24-hour day span of creation. Unlike them, however, I think the bible is wrong.

Most scientists are atheists and there is a rather strong debate going on at the moment. We would like for society in general to have a greater scientific literacy. We also are aware that unlike us, most of society is religious. There is one side that argues the best way to reach out is to respect and encourage accommodation of scientific and religious beliefs. There is another side that argues that many religious beliefs are simply not compatible with science and is part of the problem that is causing the lack of scientific literacy in the general public. Instead of trying to make the beliefs compatible by trumpeting simplistic solutions ("What the bible ACTUALLY means by ____ is ____") we should be exposing it for the crap that it is.

I have vacillated on the argument. I have at different times been on both sides of the argument and am still not convinced which way to go. At the moment though, I find the latter argument ... certain religious beliefs should be exposed for the crap that it is. I just have a hard time accepting (much less promoting) these half-assed rationalizations as valid alternative explanations.

Cheers,

DB

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

caliban's picture

God does seem to have a funny sense of time.... as most christians seem to have a funny way of interpreting the bible. They take it completely literally when it suits them, and make it figurative when they can shove a scientific theory in there. I believe in a god that may have created the universe, for after all even the big bang had to come from somewhere. To me though, the whole idea of a god that actually gives a damn about earth is complete bull, and just a little conceited. Take a look at the sky, it's easy to see there's more than just us out there.

By far the greatest problem though, is that people tend to bring science into debates over religion, and religion into debates over science. They are two entirely different things and shouldn't be mixed if you can avoid it. I did to show that if you chose to make the bible figurative, you can say pretty much whatever you want. Hey, maybe God really did make the universe in 7 days, and he's sitting up in heaven laughing at us as we speak.
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"Put your best foot forward, just watch what you step in..."

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

"There is one side that argues the best way to reach out is to respect and encourage accommodation of scientific and religious beliefs. There is another side that argues that many religious beliefs are simply not compatible with science and is part of the problem that is causing the lack of scientific literacy in the general public. Instead of trying to make the beliefs compatible by trumpeting simplistic solutions ("What the bible ACTUALLY means by ____ is ____") we should be exposing it for the crap that it is.

I have vacillated on the argument. I have at different times been on both sides of the argument and am still not convinced which way to go. At the moment though, I find the latter argument ... certain religious beliefs should be exposed for the crap that it is. I just have a hard time accepting (much less promoting) these half-assed rationalizations as valid alternative explanations."

i agree, i think that this is the best way to go. Just present the facts as facts and let people do what they will with it. The Bible contains no more "Truth" than Ovid's Metamorpheses. I do not mean that it has *no* value, only that its value is not related to its "Truth." its a story, and it is interesting, but people who go around trying to make every "truth" they learn to coincide with it are downright silly.

The more we learn about what is real and reliable, the more that all of us, religious or not, can progress.

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

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