I hate how teens nowadays have no manners or regard for other peoples feelings. It is really rude to see how some kids will talk while the teacher is talking. It also bothers me that they think that they are the only ones that can be rude. Once there was a girl speaking to her friends and the teacher was waiting for everyone to settle down, one of the girls that is always disrupting class got up and screamed across the room “She is waiting for you!!” the other girls quieted down but felt like crap to be put out like that. Another occasion there was a group presentation and there was a worksheet that had to be done one of the girls refused to do it. She sat there and distracted a few other people. When she saw her grade she went up to the presenter and said “thank you, that was really nice of you.’ In the most sarcastic tone. There is also rudeness between them. There was a girl that recently received an award and the other girl started ranting on how she never gets anything. She is president of the national honor society and she is a start runner. She is a good kid but she has a crappy attitude. I decided to write this because it really bothered me nothing serious though. just something that really bothered me.
Ethics should really be taught in schools.
By bunnybabe - Posted on May 7th, 2009
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I think schools should mainly be focusing on teaching reading, writing and arithmatic. That is apparently a lot to ask of them and they are doing it with mixed and somewhat dubious results. Given that they are already failing to a substantial degree at their primary mission, does it make sense to heap another mission onto them?
I think it is the job of parents to instill proper ethical values in their kids.
That said, it seems to me that what you were describing above is more of a discipline problem then an ethics problem. I'm sure that these kids already understand that what they are doing is improper and ethically wrong. They don't need further instruction in that regard. They are just making a decision to behave that way anyway with full knowledge that it is wrong. They have figured out that they can behave unethically without any significant consequences.
It is hard to expect schools to accomplish their teaching mission when kids are behaving in a totally undisciplined manner. Schools used to have fairly broad latitude to impose discipline including the authority to impose reasonable corporal punishment. In those days schools were orderly places and our education system actually worked. Our kids led the world in educational achievement. These days, the ability of schools to impose discipline has been almost eliminated. The result is the behavior you described above and kids like that are not going to turn out very well as adults either. And not coincidentally, our kids now lag the world in most measures of educational achievment.
If it were left up to me I'd cain the little bastards. Corporal punishment works and the problem would be solved and it would not need to happen very often after the first few times. But if society is not willing to use corporal punishment we owe it to our children to figure out a way of disciplining them that actually gets their attention and achieves compliance.
Ethics are taught in the home. It is not the schools responsibility to teach it. They have their hands full teaching the stuff they are supposed to, AND picking up the slack for lazy and irresponsible parents.
And DSS needs to back up and help with a solution rather than facilitating kids when they feel wronged. I could rant all day about this. Spanking little Johnny would certainly help every now and then... notice I didn't say beating little Johnny to a pulp or to near death.
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Respectfully,
Adam L. Labonoski
hmm...interesting points, all. I do have to agree with jackbenimble that this seems like more of a discipline problem than an ethics problem. I wonder though, if perhaps "ethics" should be taught or at least discussed in class. I don't necessarily believe that there is any unified code of values across humanity, but then again I don't think that "values" and "ethics" are congruent. Thoughts?
I disagree with jack and adam that spanking or corporal punishment is the way to handle it.
I lead groups at the psychiatric hospital to a group of 17 kids ages 12 to 17 and 364 days. They have everything imaginable going on, from psychosis, to ADHD, PTSD, developmental disabilities, and oppositional defiant disorder. I manage pretty well in getting them to pay attention.
I don't think it is too hard for a teacher to command authority in their classroom and to make expectations and consequences clear.
Before I start my group I inform everyone that participation is required for a good report. A good report is required to get discharged. I ask for a show of hands of who wants to leave the hospital. The ones who don't raise their hands are going to my problem children. They will act out on purpose. I approach them individually after the group and decide with them whether or not they will be part of the group for the day.
I inform everyone that safety is the most important part of their behavior. I explain how cross talking when it is someone else's turn creates an unsafe environment. I tell them that they are all important, and that each of them individually are my responsibility. I will not allow anyone to make anyone else to feel unsafe. Cross talking, whispering and laughing makes people feel unsafe to share their true thoughts and feelings, and interferes with their treatment. I have a zero tolerance policy for that, as well as belittling and making fun of others.
I am very stern, and I let them know the consequences. If they misbehave, they are kicked out. They may not re enter the group for the rest of the day. They will not have free time or participate in any of the fun activities. sometimes they will approach me and apologize and ask to come back into the group. In that case I ask them to write down their version of what happened, apologize to the entire group, and contract with them that they will not repeat the behavior.
I don't see why teachers can't do the same. Reflecting social responsibility back onto kids works very well. While kids can be really cruel, and stupid, calling attention to it in front of their peers embarrasses them, and it usually only has to be done once.
I really don't know why teachers act so distant and just ignore so much negative behavior. Its like they are talking to a chalkboard all day and never even bother to see if their class is paying attention.
A teacher could easily use his/ her platform and authority to communicate the value of education. They could stress that education is considered a fundamental right in America. Then they could call out the kids who don't care about their education by asking for a show of hands of those who want to be in class and learn. They could explain that even for those who don't care or want to be there, they still have an obligation to their peers to respect their right to an education and require a minimal standard of appropriate behavior during class. For those kids who act out, they could call them out in class, and ask to explain to their class why they feel they have a right to interrupt their learning. If they still don't get it, send them to in-house suspension for the day (or whatever its called in their school).
One of the reasons this approach works so well is that it honors the child's right and choice to be a member of the group. For those who don't want to be there, there is an alternative, albeit a very boring and lonely one.
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I haven't seen a teacher act distant and ignore negative behavior recently. I've certainly seen them pick their battles, but for the most part, disruptive behavior gets addressed. There are a few differences between classroom and your group. First, a teacher is stuck with the same class of thirty students for at least a semester (nine months in the elementary classroom), and students know they are legally mandated to be in school for 13 years or until the age of 16 (varies by state). There is no "behave and you'll get out of here" option. Second, teachers can't just send kids out of their classroom every time they act up. For one thing, students will use this as a way of getting out of class. Another reason they can't is that the teacher could be sued for denying the student access to education. Even if the student is misbehaving, they need to be in the classroom.
Teachers can be firm and stern all they want, but it won't work, because kids know teachers don't have a legal leg to stand on. In most cases, the administration stands with the parents, not the teachers, in order to avoid lawsuits.
The best way to control a classroom is to get all the kids on your team. You have to find some way to unite them as a little community, even if they hate each other in the hallway, and you have to get them to like you, while still maintaining good boundaries. Classroom management is the hardest part of the job, especially because parents don't do THEIR jobs.
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I had thought of the difference of class size after I wrote this post. To be honest, i haven't in a middle, junior high or high school class room since I was a student in them, which has been a very long time.
I understand everything you said, but I still think that a student who doesn't want to be in class shouldn't be forced to. They take away from the experience of the other kids, and they certainly aren't going to learn anything. Also, i don't think kids would use it as an excuse to get out of class, because they would find the boredom and loneliness of being separate from the group torture. I don't think it would have to be repeated very often, and if it did, the school would eventually address the problem with the child and his/ her family regarding the obvious obstacle to graduation.
I am sure that there are ways teachers could still implement something similar. The old dunce cap comes to mind. Put their desks in a corner facing the wall. That would be a little silly, but still better than jackbenimble's idea of smacking them around. A teacher could also consult with the child's parents and school counselor, and suggest that perhaps home school or independent study would be more appropriate for the child. In reality, I don't think many kids would need this if the other things I suggested were implemented. Peer pressure is a very powerful thing, and adults should learn how to use it to their own advantage. Kids who can't function in a group should be afforded with a learning environment that maximizes their learning potential.
Actually, I think this would a very interesting research project. I think it would be interesting to see what happens when kids are given the choice to participate in organized learning. Boundaries are an interesting thing, and few adults recognize how much kids actually crave them. When we give them the option of doing it alone, they get very scared, and usually come back with their tail between their legs.
I am sure that classroom management is very difficult, and bless the teachers that do it well. Part of the negligence I am addressing though is not just in reference to the classroom, As I was writing this post, i was thinking of bullying behavior as well. I don't understand how it goes so long without intervention, and I don't understand why kids who bully aren't exposed to legal consequences that adults would be exposed to. I am not saying that bullys should go to juvenile hall, but there has to be a way to hold them accountable.
I think teachers should have more legal control. I also think that they should be mandated to intervene with things like bullying. I know it is difficult because as it stands in this country, parental rights reign supreme, often at the cost of children. In a strange way, this thread has become relevant to the blog "UN Treaty on Children's Rights
The dawning of a conspiring world order?" http://progressiveu.org/blog/52067-un-treaty-children%E2%80%99s-rights-d...
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Unfortunately, that is the response teachers get far too often when they report behaviors to parents. And the administration too often backs the parents. After doing this dance a few times, how often do you think you would report behavior problems to the parents?
I know that's just one of your points, but I just woke up. Too sleepy to address the rest right now.
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I often read that a lot of classrooms are out of control. I'm still friends with the best teacher I had in public school and he tells me that when he retired a couple of years ago, the classrooms were mayhem. And that is in my small town that has generally good schools. Its hard to imagine what the failing schools are like. I suspect that quite a few kids realize that the school has no authority or power to impose any copnsequences that bother them so they do as they please. I think we agree on that point.
To me, that tells me that the classroom techniques that unite kids into a little community either 1)don't work very well or that 2)a lot of teachers are not very good at it or 3)a lot of teachers just don't give a crap.
It really does not matter whether it is 1,2 or 3; the result is the same and that is a disfunctional learning environment where the school is unable to complete its primary mission of teaching reading, writing and arithmetic and even the good kids don't get an education.
Since everybody seems to reject my loving "spare the rod, spoil the child" approach, I think people should be proposing some alternatives that actually work. We shouldn't let a few bad kids destroy the huge educational investment we make in our kids. There are not many if any.
I would be open to a tiered school system something like: 1) gifted kids, 2) good kids on a college track 3) good kids on a non-college track 4) delinquent kids. There would need to be a way for kids to move up the ladder if they turned their behavior around.
Failing to discipline kids with a spanking is a false kindness. Our society is very non-tolerant of misbehaved adults and we throw an amazing percentage of our population in prison. Kids that were failed by the education system are FAR more likely to be in the imprisoned group. All of you who are horrified by the thought of a school getting a kid's attention and compliance with a few swats with a paddle administered in a controlled and witnessed environment should really consider whether this is not a preferred and kinder alternative to allowing the child grow up to be a misbehaved adult.
Given the level of intensity in the classroom, with between 20 and 40 kids per class (depending on district, subject, and grade level), I would NOT be comfortable allowing teachers to administer any kind of corporal punishment. It could too easily get out of control if the teacher has hit their frustration limit.
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
There were typically 30 kids in the classroom when I was a kid too. Spankings happened and I never saw or heard of one getting out of control although it probably happened.
In the lower grades, (4th grade down) they were typically administered by the teacher. The teacher would generally go to the classroom next door and borrow the teacher with words something like "I need you to come witness a spanking". Believe me, these words were not lost on those of us who heard them and by themselves played a considerable role in maintaining order. These were very solemn and almost ceremonial events. The witness kept things from getting out of hand and the kid got a few, typically 3 -5, reasonable wacks on the rump that were enough to hurt but not enough to damage. These were a precursor to the spanking that most kids could expect from their parents when they got home.
In the upper grades the School Principle administered spankings. He used a substantial paddle but again they were witnessed and on the rump where they hurt but did not do any permanent harm. I KNOW this! Kids who caused problems were sent to the Principle's office and it was scary business because you did not know your fate. He generally left the kid sitting on the bench outside his office for about 45 minutes to stew on his fear. Usually he got scolded and sent back to class but rarely, just often enough so there was reason to be scared, a kid got spanked. A trip to the office usually meant something bad was going to happen to you when you got home to your parents too.
Amazingly, after all this teacher and parental corporal punishment most of us grew up to be pretty decent people without a lot of dehibilitating issues.
Having never seen how all this works, what I think most young people (parents, young teachers and children) miss is how RARE all this was. It was the threat that corporal punishment was possible and the knowledge that the adults would do whatever was necessary to gain compliance and maintain order that kept the order and made actually carrying out the threat usually unnecessary.
The schools did all this though with the full support of parents. Kids who got in trouble at school could almost always expect even worse trouble when they got home. And the result was orderly schools. Then Dr. Spock wrote his book and child rearing changed almost overnight and our schools have been ineffective war zones ever since with the parents generally siding with their rotten undisciplined kids.
I guess our schools are going to be like this forever because nobody has any ideas that consistently work. I'm sure a few teachers will do a reasonable job of classroom management but a lot won't.
and it is one of the reasons that I would support something like the UN treaty on Children's Rights. I think there is something very wrong with the way Americans view children. We see children as physical extensions of their parents.
This is a problem, especially when it comes to empowering community service workers and public officials (which teachers are) to advocate for children.
I don't see this changing any time soon, but I am all for discussing the need for it to change anyway.
A teacher should have similar rights to a nurse or a social worker. Teachers should keep careful notes on their students, especially in relationship to disruptive, or even tormenting behavior. That documentation should serve to protect the teacher from allegations of unfair treatment, and to make a case for getting the child supportive help outside of the classroom.
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