"At approximately 2:15 AM on New Year's Day, Oscar Grant, a young, unarmed black man was shot by police officers while laying face-down on a BART subway platform in Oakland, California. Three separate videos, which are circulating online at a rapid pace, show various angles and stages of the incident. The videos document Grant being restrained, laying face-down on the platform and with two officers restraining him - one with his knee on the back of Grant's neck. Within seconds, the second officer restraining Grant rises to his feet, unholsters his gun and fires one shot into Grant's back. Grant died seven hours later in a nearby hospital."
Oscar Grant 22 years old.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKy-WSZMklc
It was only a few years ago that Sean Bell, an unarmed 23 year old man, was shot outside of his bachelor party by police. Right now there is an investigation going on about the death of a young football star name Billey Joe Johnson from Mississippi, who was shot in the head with a shot gun, while at a traffic stop. Right now the authorities are trying to determine whether or not the young man accidentally shot himself or if there is some misconduct on the behave of the police.
It occurs to me that even in these "times of change" black life is still cheap. A black man living past 25 is too much of a rarity. I don't even know what to say. I had plan to write something intelligent to inspire some sort of community response, but the truth is this is just outrageous! How long will this be going on, no act, no bill, no law, no President will bring back these sons, brothers, nephews, uncles, fathers, these young men are gone forever. No one can talk to me about how grateful I should be to this system for the sacrifices that progressive people have made to change it, when the attitude of the American institution is still so disrespectful to my life and lives of those I love. So much blood has already been spilled by for this country to live up to his promise of democracy. How can black people be told they have life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness when so many of us are denied our very lives.
Freedom is bigger than any government and is something God has given us. Many people have tried to stand in the way of human rights, they hide behind governments, badges, religions, laws, guns, bombs, courts etc. We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes. We need not concern ourselves with which side of the street is sunnier but we need to focus on where we can add our light at every turn. We cannot allow this any longer, we have to stand up and demand justice from everyone who owes it to us.
"And what I've got to say is REBEL! While today is still today CHOOSE WELL" - Lauryn Hill
I had plan to write something intelligent to inspire some sort of community response, but the truth is this is just outrageous! How long will this be going on, no act, no bill, no law, no President will bring back ...these young men are gone forever.... We cannot allow this any longer, we have to stand up and demand justice from everyone who owes it to us.
You DID succeed in writing something intelligent. Thank you. We all want to know 'what can we do' really and practically... how can we improve this situation? I pose this question to you not to be combative or blargumentative. I'm at a loss for action. We sign online petitions, join a protest? donate monies? start a protest? i dont know what will work best. But one thing we can easily do and should do is what you have done and what Godsanointed1024 did with www.progressiveu.org/blog/51084-oscar-grant-22-year-old-man-gunned-down-.... We can write and blog and essay about this police brutality, no respect for life shit. We can create awareness.
I wonder if blacks would be less likely to be shot, justly or unjustly, by law enforcement if young black men were to suddenly stop committing such an enormous percentage of the country's crime?
I certainly think that the cops who commit outrageous and unjustified shootings on blacks (or anybody else) should be delt with in an appropriately harsh and just manner. The case in Oakland looked like nothing short of an execution and that guy should be looking at the death penalty. In the Sean Bell shooting, two of the five officers involved in the shooting were themselves black
I think these sad crimes result from real fear.
Jesse Jackson once commented, “There is nothing more painful for me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery—then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
I wonder if blacks would be less likely to be shot, justly or unjustly, by law enforcement if young black men were to suddenly stop committing such an enormous percentage of the country's crime?
I think those who would share this argument are looking for any excuse to justify this genocide. You dont see white men over 40 getting killed because they are the predominate serial killers. Or men of any nationality being killed with such frequency because they are the predominate rapists. What about the predominate hate crime perpetrators? Molesters? That argument is all bullshit. And perhaps a way for people to feel better about their twisted happiness.
The largest percentage of this country's crime comes from the police.
You forgot to notice that I called for the death penalty for the guy who executed that man.
There is a big difference between understanding and justifying. I understand that cops have a dangerous job and that they get shot at and assualted from tme to time. It seems understandable to me that if most of these shots and most of these assaults are coming from one racial group and one age and sex demographic within that racial group that it would make cops particularly jumpy about people that fit that racial/demographic profile. It may not be right but it is a fact of human nature and understandable.
Regardless of their understandable fears, it is not acceptable to execute people of this demographic or shoot them when they aren't doing anything that warrants shooting them. I think cops and law enforcement who do these things should receive, as I stated in my previous comment, harsh justice.
I think those who would share this argument are looking for any excuse to justify this genocide.
I don't think this is genocide so that's not the word I would use. I do not know what happened in the situations described by the author of this post and I really never read about them in my daily news browsing. I wish I had learned about these situations earlier because it is certainly an outrage if the officers' are guilty of killing these young men. These situations, and similar ones, do not serve as examples of genocide but rather isolated incidents of police officer misconduct (to put it very mildly). It is just as wrong and outrageous as genocide is but it is not genocide.
You dont see white men over 40 getting killed because they are the predominate serial killers. Or men of any nationality being killed with such frequency because they are the predominate rapists. What about the predominate hate crime perpetrators? Molesters? That argument is all bullshit. And perhaps a way for people to feel better about their twisted happiness.
I hear you and understand your frustration, but there is a fallacy in your argument. What jackbenimble wrote about was the disproportionately high percentage of young Black males who commit crimes. You are referring to the fact that a disproportionately high number of serial killers are white men. jackbenimble was wrong to even make such a statement and I feel that way because I think we need to be more of an individual based society rather than one based on statistics about people of different ascribed statuses. jackbenimble was incorrect to use the term "enormous" to describe the percentage of crime in America committed by young black men. That is an absurd statement that's over dramatic at best.
The largest percentage of this country's crime comes from the police.
Are you serious? That's not true in any way. If you really think that more than half of the crimes committed in the U.S. are by the police then there's not much I can do to help you. Just as I reprimanded jackbenimble for saying something similar about young black males I will point out the absurdity of your accusation.
The accused will have their day in court and the grieving families of the victims of the alleged crime committed by the police officers will have their say. If these officers did what the author of this blog said they did then they deserve harsh punishment for the terrible crimes they've committed against young men who probably weren't even criminals much less criminals that deserved a public execution without a fair trial.
jackbenimble was wrong to even make such a statement and I feel that way because I think we need to be more of an individual based society rather than one based on statistics about people of different ascribed statuses. jackbenimble was incorrect to use the term "enormous" to describe the percentage of crime in America committed by young black men. That is an absurd statement that's over dramatic at best.
I disagree. I was not wrong to make my statement.
You may want a more individual based society but most people seem to prefer to break it into groups. I suppose this makes it easier to understand the world around us. Consider this particular blog which is clearly about a racial group and not about individuals. You may not like the content of my post but it was clearly responsive to the subject of the blog.
Elsewhere in this thread I posted statistics from the Department of Justice which make clear that the black murder rate is 7 times as high as the white murder rate. 7x is getting close to a full order of magnitude. "Enormous" is an appropriate adjective and if anything understates the vast difference between the white crime rate and the black crime rate. In my opinion, the adjective "enormous" would fit pretty well even if the crime black crime rates was only a mere 2 times (double) the white crime rate. Obviously 7 times is many times worse.
There was nothing "absurd" about my statement because it was fact-based and true. You may not like it because it is not politically correct or it conflicts with your pre-concieved notions about the differences and similarities between races, or is just something that you would rather not hear or discuss, but it was a factual statement and therefore not absurd.
You may want a more individual based society but most people seem to prefer to break it into groups. I suppose this makes it easier to understand the world around us. Consider this particular blog which is clearly about a racial group and not about individuals. You may not like the content of my post but it was clearly responsive to the subject of the blog.
Breaking society into groups may make it easier to understand the world but the understanding gained using such methods is more of a "misunderstanding" than understanding. In other words you gain a false sense of understanding using statistics and prejudices based on ascribed statuses. You will feel like you understand the world properly but in reality, you won't. I'd say this blog is about both racial groups and individuals, not one or the other. For the families and friends of the men murdered by these rogue officers, they miss their friend/son/brother/nephew/cousin and the emotional pain they experience because of the loss of a loved one has nothing to do with racial issues but plain human emotion and suffering when a loved one dies.
It wasn't that I disliked the content of your post, but rather that I strongly disagreed with some of your statements. There is a big difference between dislike and disagree. And yes, your post was responsive to the subject of the blog. I don't believe I've said anything to the contrary.
Elsewhere in this thread I posted statistics from the Department of Justice which make clear that the black murder rate is 7 times as high as the white murder rate. 7x is getting close to a full order of magnitude. "Enormous" is an appropriate adjective and if anything understates the vast difference between the white crime rate and the black crime rate. In my opinion, the adjective "enormous" would fit pretty well even if the crime black crime rates was only a mere 2 times (double) the white crime rate. Obviously 7 times is many times worse.
Enormous may be an appropriate adjective to use to describe the disparity between Black murder rates and White murder rates but not the actual murder rates of young Black males in of themselves. What are you even alluding to anyway?
There was nothing "absurd" about my statement because it was fact-based and true. You may not like it because it is not politically correct or it conflicts with your pre-concieved notions about the differences and similarities between races, or is just something that you would rather not hear or discuss, but it was a factual statement and therefore not absurd.
First of all, I don't have any "preconceived" notions about the differences and/or similarities between races. I never questioned your statistics. I'll retract my usage of absurd because it is a harsh word but consider what I've written above. Obviously you don't know me very well (I don't expect you too) or you'd know that I ignore "political correctness" and instead base my views off of reality and truth. Often times I'm brutally "politically incorrect" and I don't care. On rare occasions I may be very "politically correct" but only because I feel that's the correct attitude to have for that subject or issue.My disregard for PC gets me in trouble with both sides of the aisle as it seems I am either always blatantly politically incorrect and therefore anger leftists or I am too politically correct and therefore anger right-wingers.
. I'd say this blog is about both racial groups and individuals
Your statement is disingenuous. The thesis of this blog is essentially "that black life is cheap". It is stated in the original blog and repeated in a few of the author's subsequent posts. The individuals mentioned are just supporting evidence for the larger point. The blog is about the black race as a group.
It is interesting that you give the blogger a pass on his dividing the world up into racial groups and forgive his gross generalizations which are not supported by statistics but rather just emotions, but, for reasons I don't understand, fail to give me the same pass even though I cite actual data and facts.
The truth is that something like 94% of black murders are intra-racial. They are murdered by other blacks. If black life is cheap then it is for the most part blacks that hold it in that regard. Whites, on the otherhand have a lot more to complain about. A significantly higher percentage of whites are victims of inter-racial crime.
The truth is that something like 94% of black murders are intra-racial. They are murdered by other blacks. If black life is cheap then it is for the most part blacks that hold it in that regard.
[/quote]
42% of all murder victims are black males. More than half of black murder victims — 51 percent — were in their late teens and twenties.
I am going to let you in on a secret, THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE! This not a blog about white people thinking black life is cheap, it's a blog about America feeling black life is cheap. The stats that you have, are for Blacks in America, making the Blacks, American. Instead of reading the blog and thinking that it is a complaint about 'white people' or you personally, you would understand that it is an out cry for America to stand up against injustice and value life in a way that we as a country have not before.
There is nothing rational about the actions of the police in this instance, if your argument suggest that rational fear leads to irrational actions then that fear is not right, nor is it serving the person. I am actually concerned about black life which is why I have posted this blog, I'm quite emotional because as both your stats and mine have pointed out I have the most chance of being murdered. Nothing you have said has offered solutions, you've just been here justifying a fear that results in more murder. Black life is worth less than your fear. You can understand a black death before you can understand overcoming fear. You have less of a mathematical reason to be afraid than me and yet you can understand the fear that leaves more people murdered than it does save lives.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
This not a blog about white people thinking black life is cheap, it's a blog about America feeling black life is cheap.
I appreciate the clarification. You can probably understand my confusion because all of the examples you chose appeared it be examples of inter-racial crimes against blacks committed by whites.
There's no reason to think that Blacks are naturally predisposed to violence, so if we are finding that Blacks in America are statistically committing more crimes why do you think that is?
Actually I've given this question a lot of thought. I don't know the answer but I have theories. I don't know if they are valid. In a previous post I noted that I had zero fear of the black opera aficionado. Opera appreciation has a lot to do with social economic status. I also talked about crime in "sketchy" neighborhoods. Again, social economic status. Something I don't understand is why blacks have made inadequate progress at lifting their social economic status after 50 years of affirmative action. Yes, I know the legacy of slavery but the excuse grows thin as I watch immigrants who arrive with nothing and don't even know the language pass them by. I find that inexplicable. I also believe it has a lot to do with the breakdown of the black family and the very large numbers of blacks who grow up in single family homes. I lay some blame for that on the welfare state.
Your only purpose here in this conversation has been to defend white peoples fear of blacks which an issue that you yourself raised.
I did raise that issue but actually my main role here has been to bring some facts into the discussion. I don't see much evidence that America does not value blacks. I see that America has made a huge investment in trying to lift blacks up and this investment has mostly been made by white taxpayers.
I think the evidence suggests that blacks don't much value blacks. As you discuss above, that may be illogical but beyond the very high intraracial murder rate, black American culture is filled with self-destructive pathologies like glorifying the gangster lifestyle and I could name several others. Really, what is needed in my opinion is for blacks to start valuing blacks. You need to quit killing each other. You need to raise your children to succeed including speaking proper English and staying in school. You need to be highly intolerant of crime. And you need to quit falling victim to the race hustlers who turn criminals into heroes like the prostitute who ruined the life of those Duke Lacrosse players and those hoodlums who nearly kicked the life out of a white kid in Mississippi. Basically if you followed Bill Crosby's advice it would be a great start.
Your statement is disingenuous. The thesis of this blog is essentially "that black life is cheap". It is stated in the original blog and repeated in a few of the author's subsequent posts. The individuals mentioned are just supporting evidence for the larger point. The blog is about the black race as a group.
I see your point and although it could be more elegantly worded, the thesis of thesis of this blog is "Black life is cheap." As previously stated, I agree with the fact that this blog is about the Black race as a group.
It is interesting that you give the blogger a pass on his dividing the world up into racial groups and forgive his gross generalizations which are not supported by statistics but rather just emotions, but, for reasons I don't understand, fail to give me the same pass even though I cite actual data and facts.
I'm starting to like you know. That is a very well articulated paragraph and you make a good point. I would like to tell you how I feel about this and straighten some things out. For the most part, I agree with you that he blogger made gross generalizations and is dividing the world into racial groups and I think that is very wrong. However, I don't feel like I gave the blogger a pass on his generalizations racial divisions. Maybe I did not reprimand the author of the original post for his mistakes adequately, but I certainly didn't condone them either. I did reprimand the author of another reply quite extensively (I believe it was my first post on this thread) when she said that "The largest percentage of this country's crime comes from police." The reason I did not give you a pass was because I am a strong individualist who has a big problem with statistics, stereotypes, prejudices, and generalizations. My car insurance rates are sky high for absolutely no other reason than my gender (male), age (20), and stupidly enough marital status. The car insurance companies are so ignorant and arrogant that they label me as a high risk driver that is most likely to make a costly claim. How the hell does my age, gender and marital status determine how likely I am to make a claim? I am a slow, safe, courteous, and cautious driver who always wears his seat belt, does not (and never will) consume alcohol, or take any (let alone stupid) risks. As far as I'm concerned that means more about the liability I pose to the insurance company more than my gender and age which are ascribed statuses that I cannot possibly change.
The truth is that something like 94% of black murders are intra-racial. They are murdered by other blacks. If black life is cheap then it is for the most part blacks that hold it in that regard. Whites, on the otherhand have a lot more to complain about. A significantly higher percentage of whites are victims of inter-racial crime.
That is a really good point. I sure hope the author of the original post is brave enough to try to explain why he's bitching and moaning about Whites victimizing Blacks when the converse is more common. Seriously, that is a really, really good point.
We have established that blacks are killing blacks, nobody has said anything about blacks killing whites more. If 84% of all whites killed are killed by whites, then the group killing the most white people, is white people. THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE!
Black life is so cheap in America, that a discussion about a black man unjustly killed gets overshadowed by a discussion about how it's not white peoples' fault. We rather talk about uplifting the reputation of whites than focus on how to stop all the killing.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
If you didn't want a discussion about racial issues then why in the world did you every make this post about the victims skin color rather than just the important part of these stories. You were the one to start talking about racial issues and as far as I'm concerned jackbenimble and I have only tried to steer the discussion away from racial issues. This is about white people and you know why? Because it is about people and the tragedy of a young person being killed by a rogue cop. This is about humanity, not White or Black people. There's no need to complicate the issue. I don't know what you see when watching the video of the murder but I can tell you if I saw it there would be no Whites and Blacks but only a terrible crime committed by rogue cops that has left family and friends grieving and a young life lost.
Nobody here is "uplifting the reputation of Whites" and nobody here is inappropriately talking about how it's not White People's fault that this murder occurred. The truth is that it is the fault of the perpetrators no matter what their skin color is. Of course it's not White People's fault because it isn't any races fault. You had to make a huge deal about the skin color of the cops and the victims for some reason and now you're telling us to stop defending White people. The fact that your thread is titled "Would The Cops Shoot President Obama?" is where you first went wrong. Would the Cops shoot any President? You are obviously focusing on the racial issues and we're only responding. Quite frankly, I think it's a disgrace to add a racial tone to a thread about such a horrendous tragedy. Maybe next time you write a thread, don't inject it with racial issues unless it is about racial issues. When I see a murder, I see a perpetrator and a victim, and I don't have the urge to examine the shade of skin color of the parties involved.
My car insurance rates are sky high for absolutely no other reason than my gender (male), age (20), and stupidly enough marital status.
People try to pretend like it is evil or stupid for me to try to understand the world with statistics. But that is exactly what the insurance company is doing. They do it because it works. It is a successful business model.
They know perfectly well that not every 20 year old is a high-risk driver and that some or even most of them are in fact very safe drivers. But the problem is that when those babies were born 20 years ago, they unfortunately were not designated with an "S" or an "R" inscribed on their forehead as a birthmark so that they could be deemed "Safe" or "Risky". Lacking those designations which would allow the insurance companies to judge these babies 20 years later as individuals., they have little choice but to look at all 20 year olds as a group and describe them with statistics. As a group, they are high risk.
Statistics have limitations. They describe groups and not individuals. Just because blacks have a higher murder rate then whites does not mean that any particular white cannot be a murderer and that any particular black cannot be very law abiding. And of course, the vast majority of people in both groups are not murderers.
Just because it works for insurance companies to blatantly discriminate based on statistics and stereotypes doesn't mean it should continue. It's more like "They do it because they can get away with it." It would work for the insurance companies to charge young Black Males even more insurance than young White Males because young Black Males have the highest percentage of drivers who don't where seat belts. They don't do that because they would get sued and rightfully so. It also "works" for bank robbers to not get a job and instead rob banks to make money so do you think it's okay to rob a bank? The dishonesty may benefit the bank robbers but that doesn't mean they should continue robbing banks does it? Of course not.
they have little choice but to look at all 20 year olds as a group and describe them with statistics. As a group, they are high risk.
Trust me I am fully aware of my peers' driving inabilities and immaturity. When I drive I see all types of unsafe drivers but there is always a significant presence of young males doing stupid things and speeding. I don't challenge any statistics that may exist about the driving (in)abilities of my peers. But the point is the many under 25 males that drive like idiots don't say anything more about my risk than they do a thirty-five year old married woman with children. As a group, young males are responsible for a lot of claims due to their driving (in)abilities but you conveniently forgot to mention that the insurance companies do not sell car insurance policies to the millions of young male drivers as a group. They sell it to individuals thus it should be based on that one individual not millions of young male drivers across America. They have a choice to do it fairly and they choose not to. I strongly believe that low risk drivers should NOT be subsidizing high risk drivers and strangely enough, the most adamant supporters of auto insurance discrimination say the same exact thing. Obviously they do not mean it or they would not support blatant discrimination.
Statistics have limitations.
That is very very true. Statistics are good for almost nothing. The appropriate application of statistics for the better of society are few and far between. where they can be appropriately applied, they are very helpful, however they are too often used to make stereotypes and prejudices replace the unique individuals that make the world a great place.
I'm starting to like you
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Are you saying your'e starting to like me or quoting me from one of my previous posts were I said "I'm starting to like you" to jackbenimble? I actually wanted to ask you something but I never did because I thought you didn't like met. I pretty much assume everybody dislikes me until I see otherwise. It's a pessimistic way to look at life but it ensures I'll never have a false sense of being liked. Whatever that means.
I'm saying I'm starting to like you. You can ask me anything, I'll answer.
It's a pessimistic way to look at life but it ensures I'll never have a false sense of being liked.
I think it's a smart way to look at life. There was a study in my psychology book about African Americans (AAs for short)and the way one's opinion about how they are perceived affects their ability to deal with racism. It found that A.A.s who think that people have generally have a negative view of AAs are more likely to perceive subtle racism, but are also better able to deal with it. Whereas, those who think people generally have a favorable view of AAs don't perceive subtle racism but they also are more hurt when they actually encounter racism and less able to deal with it.
So, it's a good way to go through life, although it may cause problems every now and then.
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I'm the Doctor!
That is very very true. Statistics are good for almost nothing. The appropriate application of statistics for the better of society are few and far between.
Statistics are extremely useful. They help us to understand the nature of the problem we are confronting. I completely disagree that statistics are good for almost nothing and you don't even agree with your own point.. For example when I repeated the 94% intraracial murder statistic, you responded:
Seriously, that is a really, really good point.
The problem with this blog has been that from the very beginning, the author has assumed that if cops would just stop killing black people the problem would be solved. The mistake he is making is that he is focusing on a tiny sliver of the problem. He is looking at 6% of black murders which are interracial instead of the much larger 94% that are intraracial. I think statistics have been extremely useful in pointing out the flaws in his blog. Further, as I surmised in my very first comment on this blog, my guess is that if the 94% of the problem were addressed and dramatically lowered (lowering it by a fator of 7 would bring it down to the white homicide rate), that the 6% would largely dissappear too.
I agree that statistics can be used inappropriately. Individuals must be judged as individuals. But when one is trying to understand groups, statistics are a powerful and valid tool.
Lloyd's of London is probably willing to sell you an insurance policy that judges you as an individual. It will start from the assumption that you are a low risk driver and charge you accordingly. Of course it will need to monitor your driving habits to determine if in fact you are engaging in high risk behaviors They will install a GPS and cameras in your car. The GPS will determine where, when and how fast you drive your car. If you drive at night your rate goes up. If you drive into dangerous neighborhoods your rate goes up. And if you speed or otherwise deviate from the speed limit or break traffic laws your rate goes up. The camera will be used to ensure you don't talk on a cell phone or drink beer or smoke marijuana while you are driving and that you and your passengers always buckle up and that you keep your eyes on the road while periodically taking a quick scan of your mirrors..
If you do none of these high risk things you will enjoy the low risk rate. If you do some of these things but not others your rate will be adjusted upwards accordingly.
The low risk rate will of course need to be sufficiently high to cover the cost of the three full-time employees who work in shifts at $12.00 per hour who will be needed to monitor your personal individual driving habits 24 x 7 x 365. This will be horrendously expensive. But you will enjoy the peace of mind that you were not stereotyped and that you are not subsidizing the cost of a high risk driver.
You are living in a dream world if you think that insurance companies can judge their hundreds of thousands or millions of customers as individuals. Statistics allow them to assign customers to risk pools and spread risk over large groups of customers. This works to your benefit! Otherwise insurance would be unaffordable and you would have to go naked and could find yourself subject to a judgement that would virtually enslave you for the rest of your life. If you believe that you are subsidizing high risk drivers, try getting a speeding ticket or a DUI and watch what happens to your rates. High risk drivers subsidize other high risk drivers. Of course insurance companies make nice profits in return for assuming your risks. But they also get wiped out by things like Katrina. Assuming risk is risky business.
Statistics are powerful tools and they are extremely beneficial to all of us.
Breaking society into groups may make it easier to understand the world but the understanding gained using such methods is more of a "misunderstanding" than understanding. In other words you gain a false sense of understanding using statistics and prejudices based on ascribed statuses. You will feel like you understand the world properly but in reality, you won't.
You have made this point more than once in various ways in various posts and I have been meaning to respond. You are essentially talking about the evils of stereotyping. That is a recurring principle theme in the modern
brainwashingeducational agenda so I am not surprised that you feel that way but it turns out that it is less than a completely valid idea.Before responding to you, I wanted to re-read an article that I read several years ago. It took me a while to locate it but I have now linked it below. It makes the points that I am going to repeat below in a much more articulate and thorough manner so you might want to give it a read before responding to me.
Stereotypes Aren’t So Bad
Think of a box divided into four quadrants. At the top of the box you label the two columns "True" and "UnTrue" and along the left side you label the rows "Positive" and Negative". Stereotypes can be true or false. The stereotype "Mexicans" are lazy would probably be a good example of a false stereotype. And stereotypes can also be positive or negative. My previous example was negative. The stereotype "Asians are math wizard" would be a positive stereotype. All stereotypes fall into one of the four quadrants. They are either: True and Positive, True and Negative, False and Positive, False and Negative.
It turns out that almost all sociology research and most of what you have been taught about have been aimed at the fourth quadrant: False and Negative. Clearly stereotypes which fall in this category are destructive and there is good reason to be highly critical of these types of stereotypes. False and positive stereotypes are only marginally better. They are not quite so destructive but they do little good. False stereotypes lead to discrimination and other evils. They are best exposed and disposed of.
But there is more recent and quite thorough research being done that is starting to focus on the other squares in the quadrant and which are casting the natural human tendency to stereotype in a more positive light. It turns out that most stereotypes are accurate. They fall in the "True" column. This makes them very useful tools for understanding the world around us which without the ability to make generalizations (stereotypes) would be impossible to comprehend in its detail.
The research also leads to a number of other very interesting conclusions which lead us to believe that in general stereotyping is good and that we would better understand our world if we did more of it. I'll leave you to read these for yourself in the linked article.
When combined with statistical research, stereotyping starts to look even better bcause this research has the ability to expose sterotypes that are false so that they can be disposed of.
I wonder if all the people who claim that black men do some many crimes have any stats to back that up, any concrete information. I always find it remarkable the guilt that people when the hypocracy of this system comes rushing to the light. Every time a tragedy like this occurs you'll find a host of people who come running to justify it, to down play it, who think that there is something they can say or some stereotypical fear they can preach about, or some black man quote that will validate the fact that an unarmed man is dead. Some one's son is dead, he's not fired, he's not under investigation, he doesn't have a bad reputation, he's dead forever.
I'm sure it makes you feel better on some level to think that he deserved it, or that we deserved it. Quite frankly I can understand your need to justify such a gross injustice. We would all like to live in the world we were told we lived in as children. A world where everyone who has power, wealth, or authority is a good person and out to do nothing but good. A world where only bad people suffer and only bad people are hurt, and justice is always served. In real life, however, people are capable of anything. Watch the recording and you'll see that there us no reasonable reason to draw a gun,maybe the irrational fear that Jesse Jackson speaks about is the reason why an officer with two other officers at his side, would still feel threatened by an unarmed man face down on the ground. I would like the luxury of feeling sorry for people who have lied to themselves so deeply that the truth scares them into apathy for human life, but the fact is those people are alive and the choice to grow, learn, and atone. Oscar Grant is dead forever!
It's amazing how every decade people swear white supremacy is dead. No matter what injustices occur in the country people will say "oh it's not that bad". How can we believe the world has changed when our minds haven't. When we still say it's the dead black man's fault. Scripture teaches us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. Wake UP. Rebe. Rebel against that spirit that tells you that people deserve oppression and death. Study, grow, learn, and you'll find that irrational fear and white guilt will fall away like the demonic illusions that they are.Then you can join the winning team of humanity that always overcomes and leads the way into true life and real liberty.Where the spirit of the Lord is, there you find liberty, and God has not given us a spirit of fear.
Where is your mind? Where is your heart?
"While today is still today, choose well" - Lauryn Hill
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
I actually thought the sad difference between crime rates for different races was common knowledge which was why I did not bother to put up a link in my previous post. I was driving through Alabama a few months ago listening to a black talk radio host lamenting these facts and it was pretty clear that he knew and the self-identified blacks calling into his show also knew.
But since you ask, these statistics are readily available.
Here is one example from the Department of Justice that makes the point pretty clearly:
Racial differences exist, with blacks disproportionately represented among homicide victims and offenders
Here are a couple of the punchlines:
- In 2005, homicide offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites
- Although slightly less true now than before, most murders are intraracial
- 86% of white victims were killed by whites
- 94% of black victims were killed by blacks
And keep in mind that the Department of Justice deliberately distorts these figures to make the whites look worse than they are by tracking Hispanics in a confusing manner. Hispanics are tracked as Hispanics when they are victims but they are counted as Whites when they are perpetrators. This distortion overstates white crime rates and completely obscures Hispanic crime rates.
I'm sure it makes you feel better on some level to think that he deserved it, or that we deserved it. Quite frankly I can understand your need to justify such a gross injustice. We would all like to live in the world we were told we lived in as children. A world where everyone who has power, wealth, or authority is a good person and out to do nothing but good. A world where only bad people suffer and only bad people are hurt, and justice is always served. In real life, however, people are capable of anything.
I think it would make any good person feel better to think that the young men deserved being killed. I wish the police did not execute somebody in America and I would feel better if this could be remotely justified, but it cannot. I am with you 100 percent with the rest of the paragraph quoted. What more can I say? I think you worded it it gallantly.
Killing the police officer who committed this awful crime will not bring back any of these victims or stop these crimes,because just has the post to this blog as well as Jesse Jackson's quote proves, people are afraid of Black Men. Just at the department of justice stats will show more blacks are killing blacks than anyone else. Which is utimately the point, Black life is treated with disrespect by everyone. So much so that Black men walking down the street, reaching for their wallets, even laying face down on the ground inspire so much fear that the end result is the murder of an unarmed black man. Even black men are scared of black men, so scared they murder out of fear, which adds to the fear, which adds to the murder.
Let's be clear. A fear of Black people or any people based on a racial profile is not based in truth or rationality. You would do better to stop thinking it rational to shoot first and ask questions last when it comes to Black men. There has definitely been a time in our country's history were most black men weren't being killed by other black men, but there has never been a time in our country's history where blacks have been safe from these sorts of crimes. What was the excuse in the 1800's or 1900's for these same crimes, when did it change? When did it go from irrational stereotype to a "real fear". I find consistantly that when people are going for progress they find it, and when people are looking for trouble they find it. If only these crime stats resulted in police catching violent criminals of any race then we would see less violence all around. Thanks to those who offer stats, it is good to try and be informed, let's stay fully informed and
e solutions not problems.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
people are afraid of Black Men. Just at the department of justice stats will show more blacks are killing blacks than anyone else. Which is utimately the point, Black life is treated with disrespect by everyone.
And unfortunately blacks are 7 time more likely than anybody else to treat life disrepectfully.
I disagree with your assertion above that fear of black men is irrational. In a room filled with 3 unknown white men and one unknown black men, a person of any race is statistically more than twice as likely to be murdered by the black man then any of the 3 white men. While it will not turn out that way in every case, the probabilities are a mathmatical certainty and there is nothing irrational about betting on those odds particularly when the bet involves ones personal continued existence.
Which brings me back to my original "I wonder" post which I made above. The killing needs to stop and that stopping needs to begin with the people who are doing most of the killing.
Trust is earned just as fear is earned. When black crime rates come down to a level comparable with white crime rates then your arguments about racism will be irrefutable if the fear of blacks does not also subside.
However, jackbenimble is correct in that Blacks are killed because people are afraid of Black people. And therefore many people hate Black peoples. We are no stranger to persecution. That racial profiling jackbenimble described is racist, wrong, and deadly. We know its wrong. The above produces desire to hate each other. Not everyone thinks like that though, that's what sane people have to keep in mind. Sometimes, I covet fear but then I try to fight those feelings, but then reading jackbenimble arguments reinforces my fears. I also refute it when people talk about how groups of people talk about other groups of people behind their backs, but his argument makes me think twice about that again. I try to think the best of people at all times, and to be reminded that same courtesy would not be extended to me or my loved ones is sad, but we shouldn't want to stay naive for anything.
When will Black folks be seen as individuals and not a barrel full of niggers? Even the president asked this question in Letters from my Father.
I'd like to add, i'm soooo sick of people acting like when people (esp in the public sector) do the bare minimum, when they do what they are supposed to do, we are supposed to pat them on the back. BULLSHIT. case in point, the state of CA "pursuing" charges of murder on the murderer of Oscar Grant. well duh, that's what should happen, i'm not gonna give them bonus points for doing the right thing! that makes them feel like they can continue to do the wrong thing and toss us bones of "justice" sporadically. go above and beyond so that this doesnt happen any more. make an initiative, do something so that police brutality and murder rates go down! and stop blaming the dead because u feel they deserved to be killed with out going to court, and letting the police but judge jury and executioner, that is NOT OK
H
Do you ignore the odds when you play poker too? If so, I wouldn't mind playing a few hands. You can say its wrong all you want but it is irrational to ignore truth. And the statistics are true and the probabilities cannot be rationally ignored.
But I certainly don't assume every black person is a murderer and in fact I am absolutely certain that most are not. That is also the truth and I recognize it.
The particular situation has a lot to do with it. If I am standing in a large crowd of people who just walked out after an opera I feel very little fear of anybody of any race that happens to be there. Opera goers are not generally the type to commit crimes. I have zero fear of black opera afficionados. I've also never felt threatened by a black man on a college campus. On the otherhand if I find myself in a sketchy neighborhood I am distrustful of everybody of every race because crime is far more likely to happen where people are economically deprived. I've been known to cross the street to avoid walking near groups of people in such neighborhoods. If I am faced with a choice of being on the side of the street where the group of white guys is hanging out or on the side of the street where the black guys are, I go with the statistical odds.
When will Black folks be seen as individuals and not a barrel full of niggers? Even the president asked this question in Letters from my Father.
When will the world be perfect and just? Never. Never will there not exist one racist on the planet. That's just the way it is. It is easy to want to complain (at least for me) about the wrong and injustice in the world. But we sometimes need not seek such perfection in order to help society be better. In fact, I think it's more productive to focus on realistic goals for society. I feel your frustration as existing racism infuriates me to no end. There is no reason or excuse to hate people because of the color of their skin. It's not hard or even a menial task not to be a bigot or racist but there will always be racist people. I'm sure you recognize that. As for your actual question about when Black folks will be seen as individual rather than a "barrel full of niggers" the answer is NOW. I see everybody as individuals who deserve respect or scorn based on who they are as an individual (content of character). Of course my individualist attitude does not just apply to Black people but all people. There are plenty of people like me as well. Most people may not be as much of an individualist as me, but most people do not judge by skin color.
You and I seem like good people so we need to keep our ears, eyes, minds, and hearts open to any opportunity we get to change the world for the better. Even if it is just one person we reach out to each day we could be doing really good things. Maybe one of the people that I let make their left turn when I am the first car at the traffic light (without a left arrow) and there is an endless line of traffic behind me were not late too an important job interview. That's just one example of the things we do daily that may have more positive results than meets the eye. I tend to help elderly people if they are in need and I think it really makes them happy just to see that people still care.
Wow... the claims here are rediculas and show a clear double standard.
If you want the United States to be equal, you need to stop playing the poor me card, and simply stand by your white brothers instead of crying foul every time we do something wrong.
Yes there are racist white cops... but guess what, there are racist black cops too. I know heaven forbid there is a racist black guy!!
Full full writings and ideas see TravisMcCrea.com
You can be a liberal republican, you can be a conservative democrat... just letting you know.
Who thinks that there is one single ethic group that doesn't have racist individuals? OMG!!! Did you think you were dropping some knowledge? Uh no... "poor me card" u often uses a lot of preused/predeterminded quotes when they are not even relevant. It seems that they are your stock arguments that you use when talking to people about these issues. Well tailor your blarguement to THIS conversation.
Are you one of those people that say "reverse racism" in your arguments? I'm seriously curious.
For anyone that may, what is that? Love? Cuz to use that to mean non-white racist people is stupid. Its "racism" any way you slice it. H
Stock answers? LOL yeah, I just keep a copy and paste bin in My Documents folder full of cookie cut answers to problems regarding race.
Its not "Reverse Racism" is plain and simple normal racism....
He is saying a blacks life isn't worth a damn essentially... and that just isn't the case.... his life is worth just as much as mine, and almost everyone sees it that way...
By the way, its "you" and "use" I don't "uses" anything.
Full full writings and ideas see TravisMcCrea.com
You can be a liberal republican, you can be a conservative democrat... just letting you know.
For those of us who care about life, then we will always fight against the destruction of it. Those of us feeling guilty and trying to justify our fear will say things like "White people make mistakes" and "Black cops are racist too" none of which is relevant to the post. The reality is an unarmed man, face down on the ground is not a threat when surrounded by officers. No reason to draw a gun, no reason to shoot him. No reason to leave your house afraid of any one. Those of you who are using the death of this young man to validate your fear or using it to ease your impotent guilt that no one wants or needs you to have, may God bless you because your life must be filled with fear and self doubt. Everyone else affirm life, we are bigger than actions and excuses like these.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
Good Night Folks
I don't see where this is a race issue because he is black though. Maybe there was just an off the handle police agent? Why is it always a race issue? I am POSITIVE (because it has happened locally to me) that white people get shot unarmed as well...
One time it was a kid, who was def (white) and was holding a knife... and they yelled to set down the knife... he didn't they shot him... The kid wasn't at a distance to rush them and stab them there was no reason to shoot... but they did.
Sometimes bad things happen... My comment of Black Cops can be racist too is completely valid because you had the audacity to bring race into this entire issue. Yes this was a bad thing... and it would simply remain a horrible thing that should never have happened, except you brought race into it too. Which then makes me argue against it because you clearly have an issue with white people.
The reason why I believe it is a racially motivated incident because there is no reason to pull a gun on an unarmed suspect, face down, surrounded by cops. We have seen this same type of thing for about four centuries now.
None of this means that abuse of police power doesn't manifest itself in other ways, however I personally feel like this as well as the stats and racial fear conversation that has been going on point to the fact that Black life is not worth much to the nation. If you feel like the police are out of hand in your community than you should certainly work to make a difference. No one is discounting your racist black police officer remark. As a matter of fact you'll find that a lot of the racism black people experience from the police comes from Black cops.
You seemed to be very interested in racial equality, which is good, you also are observant enough to see the inconsistencies in what people teach about race and what people practice. That's a good place to start.
You should read Bomb The Suburbs by William Upski Wimsatt, also thoroughly study the work of Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X. There is a book of Malcolm's speeches called By Any Mean Necessary, finally President Obama's first book Letters From My Father, it might also clear up some of your confusion about his racial background. His father is not a "Negro", American, or Arabic, he is Kenyan. I think if you are serious about dealing with racism, these books will help you.
Keep expressing yourself and keep educating yourself.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
The issue that is most clearly illustrated by this incident is the need for better enforcement of the standards for police behavior. Currently a police officer is much more likely to get away with shooting another individual than any average person would be. It is unavoidable that the job they are doing places them in a position where a shooting is more likely, and they are often the one being shot. When a police officer shoots a person the investigating organization should not be his or her own police force. Idealy the investigators should be motivated to find any sign of wrong doing rather than any excuse for the incident.
Police should be held to a higher standard than citizens, not a lower one.
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Blaming this on the victims race only obscures the REAL reason young black men are more likely to be shot by police than other groups.
If a young Black Man is shot he was probably shot by another young Black Man. Not the police.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime#Black_on_black_crime
Racism is not why Black youths kill each other.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/vracetab.htm
If you work to get these kids to avoid the life that leads to them being in handcuffs in the first place the rest of the problem will solve itself. Blaming the police is NOT constructive toward that end.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
--Andre Gide
Race is a political category that is about 5 or 6 hundred years old, a baby in the time line of humanity and Earth. Over the years Race has become a large part of our lives here,much like politics and money, both made by humans and having nothing to do with any natural order of things but are excuses for humans to kill and live.
The boy was not shit because he was Black, The cop was not afraid of him because he was Black, the cops fear and the young man's murder are not caused by race, they are the result of the cop's mentality. Race is the political excuse, there is nothing natural or iniate about racial
catergories or racial fear. Fear of the "other" however is a very natural thing, an education that tells us Blacks are the "others" makes fearing them, hating them, enslaving them, pittying them, looking down on them, being ignorant towards them, stereotyping them acceptable on some level. (kind of like Gingers on South Park).
Oppressed people in Western civilization have the issue on being raised in White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarch without being white, wealthy, or males. So everything inside of them tells them they are a human, everything outside of them tells them they are an "other". This where most of the pain, anger, and confusion of oppression comes from, Everything you know says "be a human", everything you learn margenalizes you to a "minority" a "special interest group" etc. So the overall sentiment in the USA is "black life is cheaper". That doesn't mean everybody hates blacks and wants to see them die, it just means that if you read stats that tell you more blacks are being killed than whites your response is more "Let's fear blacks they are violent" instead of how you feel if you found that human beings were being murdered in record numbers. Black life is even cheap to blacks, it can be traded for shoes, clothes, respect, machismo, acceptance, money, boredom. In any of those inner cities or "sketchy" neighborhoods the crime rates are large, but if you live in Chicago, New York, or a number of U.S. cities the ghetto is right next to the wealth. "Inglewood" is right next to "Hyde Park" Cabrini Green Projects is right next to the Gold Coast, but the violence, the theft, never spills over the sides and finds it way into the other neighborhoods. A man will shoot a man who is just as poor, for a little bit of money, but won't cross the street to pursuit the wealth of the city. The mentality is wealth, white, male is more untouchable, more prevalidge, more precious.
Yes, we can do most by building strong communities leading people away from the trappings of a violent life, teaching people to respect themselves and each other regardless of race, class, gender etc. We also have to hold Police and institutions to a higher standard, and ourselves. We have to acknowledge all places where deception and illusion are misleading us and face them, not justify them or defend them. Fear is not the way. Yes be smart, even play the odds, but there is nothing rational about a group of police unloading their weapons into a man reaching for a wallet or pulling a gun on a unarmed man, face down on his back who is surrounded on all sides by police officers, any fear that produces irrational actions cannot be defended as rational fear. I am a Black Man, and as all the stats have proven I have the most need to be afraid of being killed in a violent crime, yet what has kept me safe in every neighborhood has not been fear but faith, not irrational action but mutual respect.
We must protect our right to live as people and fight against any set of ideas that tell us fear and violence are the way.
There is nothing threatening about being face down, hands behind you, unarmed. We can raise our children to be the best they can be, but if they can get shot in cold blood because people are threatened by their existance then the entire issue is not being addressed. I have worked very hard to build life respect in several communities and I am saddened an outraged by violent crimes, particularly against black males, even when the killers are black males, but I hold the police to higher standards.
What would we say if the police shot an unarmed Black kid named Barry because they found him with some coke? Would they shoot him in the back? Would they shoot him coming out his bachelor party? Would they shoot him once or shoot at him over 50 times? And what would it take for us to change the way we think and feel about each other? What would it take for us to stand up against fear and be better people?
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
"Race is a political category that is about 5 or 6 hundred years old, a baby in the time line of humanity and Earth."
Wrong. Did your history class ignore everything that happened before Columbus took the long/wrong way to India? Racism was more prevalent, and had MANY more distinct races 1,000 years ago, and even more than that 2,000 years back. There is not only less racism today, but it also identifies fewer and broader categories to hate than ever before.
How long ago did the caste system solidify into it's modern form in India? Why did the Zulu tribe in Africa, and the Greek Spartans, kill imperfect babies of their race? How many distinct European races did the Roman conquerers refer to? How many north African races?
The only way to think that racism ONLY goes back "5 or 6 hundred years" is to ignore the vast majority of racism. There is a human tendancy to only feel your own pain, and ignore the pain of others.
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"Oppressed people in Western civilization have the issue on being raised in White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarch without being white, wealthy, or males."
"So the overall sentiment in the USA is "black life is cheaper"."
If you do the math, "black life is cheaper" to blacks more so than it is to ANYONE else. That is not oppression from some "White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarch" it comes from your neighbor with the Gat in his hand. It comes from the racism that makes you pretend that your race is the only one ever oppressed. In this case your racism makes you blame those trying to protect you, and make excuses for a thug with a gun selling drugs to your children.
Fix your own mind, lead your own life free from hate. Work with those who seek truth and justice, and work against the workers of inequity and violence. Forget about continuing to be the victim, and BE THE SOLUTION.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
--Andre Gide
Separating humans into fictional categories is not new by any stretch of the immagination, calling those things race and calling the people Black-White-Asian-Hispanic-Indian etc. is not thousands of years old.
Racism is not an ageless monster that is bigger than us. MY PEOPLE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES SUFFERING AND I NEVER SAID THAT! White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarchy does nor imply that. White Supremacy helps Whites about as much as German Supremacy helped Germany. The system we live in is not as old as time , it's about 600 years old, it is not the problem for all of human time but it is the hurdle for us having our desired democracy here in this country.
As far as making excuses for a thug with a gat, nothing I have said lets "Thugs" off the hook. We all have a responsibility. This is not just as simple as thugs with guns, just like it's not as simple as skin color. This pattern of death is older in our country than the term thug or gat. Instead of everybody trying to find one source to blame and shake the weight off themselves we could all stand to be braver, wiser, and care more about the issue.
Love-Hea;th-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
"This is not just as simple as thugs with guns, just like it's not as simple as skin color."
It does have a great deal more to do with thugs with guns than it does with skin color. Cops kill because they are afraid. Skin color does not scare them at all, unless they associate it with the many gun toting thugs. The victim of this crime was just released from prison for fleeing from police while carrying a gun. He was not in handcuffs for visiting the Library.
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"This pattern of death is older in our country than the term thug or gat."
Actually the patern of summary execution by police is also older than this country. The new thing in cases like this one is the civilian video evidence against them. If the camera was not present they very likely would have 'found' a gun on the body, and this would have been 'justified'. In this way we may be seeing the begining of the end of this type of behavior.
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"Instead of everybody trying to find one source to blame and shake the weight off themselves we could all stand to be braver, wiser, and care more about the issue. "
I agree. Which is why I pointed out that race is one of the least important questions involved. The more important questions here are:
Prohibition of drugs creating jobs for armed Gangsters as it always has.
A need for more accountability in police shootings, and use of force.
Pathetic Government run schools.
Racially motivated apologists misplacing the blame for rampant violence.
If you are not a racist perhaps you should stop using disparaging terms toward other races so you don't look like one.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
--Andre Gide
Racism is 100% illogical, if you think that it plays by a pre determine set of rules like "skin color" you are sadly uneducated. The truth is THIS IS A BLOG ABOUT BLACK LIFE IS CHEAP IN AMERICA, that is not only manifested in White people. It is quite irrelevant to keep defending white people just because this is a blog about how the country as a whole doesn't value black life. It is a racial issue, but guess what race is not 123 me no like people of different colors. There's such a sick and twisted history that it would take much more than a blog to fill you in on how "complicated" the issue already is.
When I look at the video I see a police officer pull his gun for NO REASON! I see something that I have seen every year of my life, a black male unarmed killed by the police, there is not a year that it has not occurred. Now to many reading this blog that may be a small number to me it is an outrage. Especially considering that I come from a city where for every one news story about a police murder of an unarmed suspect, there are at least two that go unheard of. I come from Chicago, IL where over 50 death row inmates are pardoned after DNA reveals they are innocent and investigations prove that their confessions are the result of torture by Jon Burge, who after being found a torturer simply early retires. This pattern of police brutality is older than any of us on this site, and this disregard for black life, poor life, oppressed life by the society as a whole is older than gangster rap.
I say Black man unjustly killed and I get a bunch of "Well stop bitching about destruction of human life because it's not my fault,"
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
I say Black man unjustly killed and I get a bunch of "Well stop bitching about destruction of human life because it's not my fault,"
Cause making excuses is easier than actually doing something and it makes people feel less guilty for ignoring serious problems.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree with _Meke.