Recently, mai friend Jerry had a fun night where he “hooked-up” with a love lady named Karen at a party. These two ended up engaging in some heavy “necking and petting”. Jerry was devastated, angry, and hurt to later find out this chick was a pre-op transgendered woman. Jerry has a great fear that people will now question his sexuality and see him as a gay man. This, I’ve tried to reassure him, of course is a nonsensical fear.
I am happy to see more of society being represented on television and in the world. Transgendered people are becoming more of a topic in American society. Recently, Isis was the first transgendered model on America’s Next Top Model, Katelynn is the first transgendered personality on The Real World, and there is at least one transgendered character on a daytime drama. Because of intolerance, I can understand why many transgendered people want to keep privacy about their sexuality. However, I think a line is drawn when they enter into romantic relationships without disclosing this information to their partner.
Arrogantly, at first, I thought everyone would share this opinion. En mon avis, ideally no judgment should be passed on anyone for choosing to live their life in a way that isn’t harmful. In mai undergraduate Human Sexuality Seminar class, Dr. William Bradley expressed his position during our section on the transgendered community. He believes that once transgendered people have their bodies operated on to match their mindset, they are for all intents and purposes their reassigned gender. I agree with the majority of this position. However, it is their obligation to make this information known to anyone they want to be romantically involved with. I do not feel transgendered people should be made or pressured legally or otherwise to disclose information about their sexuality to employers, landlords, schools, or any other public or private organizations. It’s simply not anyone’s business besides those who they are planning on being intimate with. Dr. Bradley, however did not agree with me. He just kept asking me, Why? Why do they have to tell anyone? The are now their new gender.
If you listen to The Pharcyde you may have heard Fatlip talk about making out with a woman only to find out she was transgendered. In their documentary Cydeways: The Best of The Pharcyde, Fatlip goes into a bit more detail explaining that he was embarrassed by the situation for years. He only felt comfortable enough to talk about kissing the woman in the lyrics of his rhyme. However, in the documentary we learn he also received fellatio.
Most (if not all) people would agree on the importance of discussing sexual history with a new partner. This is something we’ve been advised to do as long as we’ve been advised to use a condom or get regularly checked for sexually transmitted infections (STIs). Discussing sexual history consists of asking a new partner how many partners they’ve had in the past, if they know the sexual history of those partners, if they know if their past partners STI status, if they know what their STI status is, and how often they get tested. When applicable, knowing if whether the partner is transgendered (post or pre-operation) should be included in this checklist.
Knowing a partners sexual assignment/reassignment past should be seen in the same category as knowing their sexual history. Just as sexual history questions serve to protect your body from harm, this additional question helps protect not only your body but your emotional and mental health as well. That is “why” Dr. Bradley.
Its not a good idea to have any degree of secrecy and deception that may lead to mistrust in a committed relationship, short or long term. Just as it is a transgendered persons right to adjust their body as they see fit, it is everyone’s right to know the chromosomal makeup of a sexual partner.
"However, it is their obligation to make this information known to anyone they want to be romantically involved with."
People engage in sexual behavior for a wide variety of reasons and for varying periods of time (I am referring to the length of the relationship, not specific incidences of sexual interplay).
Do you think that prostitutes should have to disclose their sexual histories? I would say that if they have not completed their medical transition they have an obligation to not commit "false advertising" by surprising their customer with an unexpected piece of anatomy. If they have completed their transition however, their customers have no reason to have any information about the prostitutes personal history.
Do you think that people who have been sexually abused or raped should have to disclose that before engaging in sexual behavior with someone? I do not, but by your argument, they should. My friend who was arrested for rape found out that the woman he decided to drop ecstasy and have sex with had a dissociative disorder, which usually does come with a history of sexual abuse. Shouldn't my friend have been made aware of the emotional baggage she carried before consenting?
I have HPV, dozens of different strands of it. Most people do, including virgins. I have never had genital warts though, which are the outbreak that HPV causes. I did not tell my husband until we had been engaging in sexual behavior for over 2 months. I didn't feel the need to. I researched it thoroughly and realized that while I will likely to pass it to any partner I engage in intercourse with, it has no effect on males (excluding the strain that causes genital warts, which I do not have). The strains that I carry are linked to cervical cancer, and since men don't have cervixes, they do not suffer from having HPV.
I agree that it would be important to share all of these things, sexual history, including incidences of sexual abuse, in a relationship that becomes long term, monogamous and committed. To not do so is to neglect to build intimacy.
However, if both people know that this is a "casual" encounter, fantasy is the whole point. Perhaps more controversial, but a similar argument following your logic would be to say that a person should have to disclose any history of plastic surgery, or whether or not their breasts are really that big, or do they only appear to be because they are wearing a padded push-up contraption?
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Do you think that prostitutes should have to disclose their sexual histories?
Especially prostitutes, if you're paying for it you have a right to know what you are paying for. If they list juice % on the side of bottles then yes, prostitutes have an ethically obligation to tell customers their sexually history.
I think it's so funny that prostitution even came up, but back to the lecture at hand,
I think that it is important to be sexually responsible in these times. Everyone has a right to know what kind of relationship they are getting involved in. I think that trans gender people have to be extremely careful because it can be dangerous, but just as they have the right to change their body to match their sexual identity, another person has the right to define gender and sexuality for themselves. We should put more importance on intimacy than we do, and understand the trust that's going on when you put your body out there like that.
At the end of the day it's intimacy, so it's personal. I would want to know and have the freedom to decide for myself. When your choice violates someone else's choice thats when it becomes wrong.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
"We should put more importance on intimacy than we do, and understand the trust that's going on when you put your body out there like that."
but, what people *should* do and what people *do* do are totally different.
I think that if someone is paying for sex, they should know that they are risking any and every possible consequence of a *non intimate* sexual encounter. They don't have a right to any personal history about the person. Of course, if the customer asks, they can choose to disclose or not, and if the customer wishes, he or she can take their business elsewhere.
People need to decide these things amongst themselves.
If you want to know a person's sexual history before having sex with them, you are smart. It is smart to not have sex with someone until a level of intimacy has already been reached where these things have been shared.
Everyone has a right to make up their own rules regarding sex. If your potential partner doesn't want to play by your rules, you have a right to not engage.
One thing I do think is wrong is when a person asks someone something straight out and the person lies.
However, in the story that Mai presented, I do not think that the transsexual or transgender (I can't remember which) is *obligated* to reveal anything until she is comfortable.
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Everyone has a right to make up their own rules regarding sex. If your potential partner doesn't want to play by your rules, you have a right to not engage.
Turtlesuds, I really like what you've said here. However, I'd have to disagree with you if you dont think this same kind of reasoning would extend itself to kissing, fondling, or oral sex.
It is important that transgender people have a comfortable transition. But It is equally important for anyone engaging in romantic conduct to be comfortable dating a transgendered person. I'm wondering if that is a matter of EQUALITY... perhaps yes.
But back to the lecture at hand (Mjh7 that was a great line lol) in mai two situations, both Jerry and Fatlip (who I later found out assaulted the transgendered person, not because she was transgendered but because he felt her deceit infringe on his personal choice and caused him to have romantic conduct which he wouldn't have if he'd been fully aware) did not want to have romantic relations with a transgendered person. That is their prerogative.
If they didnt want to play by the transgendered persons rules, they should have had the right NOT to engage.
...then I have to remind you that all citizens have a constitutional right to PRIVACY. Thus no citizen ever owes ANY other private citizen ANY access to their personal history except in certain, very specific situation that are defined in our laws, usually limited to situations where failing to reveal that information would result in direct harm to another individual.
But back to the lecture at hand (Mjh7 that was a great line lol) in mai two situations, both Jerry and Fatlip (who I later found out assaulted the transgendered person, not because she was transgendered but because he felt her deceit infringe on his personal choice and caused him to have romantic conduct which he wouldn't have if he'd been fully aware) did not want to have romantic relations with a transgendered person. That is their prerogative.
I have to call bullshit on this. I don't believe for a second that your friend assulted the transgendered person because he was "deceived," and even if that was the case, any sympathy which I might otherwise have had for him evaporated immediately when he decided to express his anger through violence. In fact, I would suggest that your friends reaction provides a perfect example of WHY many transgendered people chose to keep their status a secret.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
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Fatlip is a member of the hip hop group Pharcyde. Their documentary which details the incident is cited in the blog. Fatlip is no more mai personal friend than Oprah, Jay-Z, or Barack Obama. He is a celebrity.
I dont commend Fatlip's violent reaction. But I disagree that should encourage transgendered people to stay hush about themselves to people they want to get it on with (by all means remain hush for all other reasons also cited in blog). I think that is more reason for to seek out people who are going to welcome them romantically. Some people are not that open with their sexuality. Seek those who are.
It seems EQUAL to me that when dealing with relationships, transgendered people would disclose their sexuality if there is any question that the other party would not welcome the fact. As far as harm goes, for some, being with a transgendered person could very well cause emotional or mental unrest. Its a touchy subject, but be forthcoming.
The constitution still allows some states to arrest people for having anal sex! That's ridiculous!! I wonder what can be done to change that.
I cant image that most people in this day in age would condemn any number of consenting adults for engaging in sexual behavior (not in public) of any sort. Consenting is important though. CONSENTING!
The difference in these stances MAY come in the question of regarding transgendered as fundamentally a man or woman. Perhaps those not comfortable with being romantic (on any level) with transgendered (can I get a PC abbreviation for this word!!!) ones is because they dont see them that way. maybe? maybe not?
"I think that is more reason for to seek out people who are going to welcome them romantically. Some people are not that open with their sexuality. Seek those who are."
That is good, practical advice. Again, not everyone is practical, and it isn't anyone's place to attempt to force people to be practical.
Assaulting a person for any reason is not appropriate. Fatlip should have had more discretion and gotten to know this person better before choosing to engage in sexual behavior. I see him in total fault for the whole situation.
Again, I reference my blog "Help My Friend is In Jail for Rape,"
He was falsely accused and arrested. He spent 2 weeks in jail. It came out that she had a dissociative disorder. She did not tell him that, should we press charges on her? Maybe. But ultimately, my friend was stupid for dropping ecstasy with a stripper he didn't know.
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Not everyone is practical, or even if they are in general can have heated moments of impracticality. My position should always be taken as advice, I dont want to order someone to do anything. I dont think its a good idea to lie to your spouse, but its not against the law necessarily (though can be used adversely if divorce ensues).
about your friend, dayum that's messed up!! 2 weeks in jail? yeah if he wants, i think he should sue, but not cuz she's got a dissociative disorder, but because she lied (she did lie right?) and said she was raped when she wasn't. her having a dissociative disorder can be used to back up that she lied. isn't that slander or something? has the situation caused loss to your friend?
turtlesuds, great advice: it's not wise to go around "dropping ecstasy with a stripper [you] [don't] know"
I dont commend Fatlip's violent reaction.
Defending people who resort to violence as a means of expressing their bigotry seems to be a trend in your blogs. For example.
But I disagree that should encourage transgendered people to stay hush about themselves to people they want to get it on with (by all means remain hush for all other reasons also cited in blog). I think that is more reason for to seek out people who are going to welcome them romantically. Some people are not that open with their sexuality. Seek those who are.
Oh yes...by all mean...let's blame the victim because someone was unable to control their bigotries and behave like a civilized person. {/sarcasm}
It seems EQUAL to me that when dealing with relationships, transgendered people would disclose their sexuality if there is any question that the other party would not welcome the fact.
Do you have any evidence that would suggest that your celebrity idol provided the person he assaulted with a detailed account of HIS sexual and medical history before engaging in this casual sexual encounter? If so, please present it. If NOT, then I think your position is extremely hypocritical.
As far as harm goes, for some, being with a transgendered person could very well cause emotional or mental unrest. Its a touchy subject, but be forthcoming.
Fortunately, the bar for proving "harm" in a legal sense isn't quite so unreasonably high as the standard you suggest.
The constitution still allows some states to arrest people for having anal sex! That's ridiculous!! I wonder what can be done to change that.
Factually incorrect. The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that all citizens have a constitutional right to engage in consensual sodomy in the case of Lawrence v. Texas (2003).
I cant image that most people in this day in age would condemn any number of consenting adults for engaging in sexual behavior (not in public) of any sort. Consenting is important though. CONSENTING!
Ummm....your celebrity idol DID consent. He just changed his mind after the fact.
The difference in these stances MAY come in the question of regarding transgendered as fundamentally a man or woman. Perhaps those not comfortable with being romantic (on any level) with transgendered (can I get a PC abbreviation for this word!!!) ones is because they don't see them that way. maybe? maybe not?
Why does it matter? OBVIOUSLY, you celebrity idol was sexually attracted to this trans-woman (as evidenced by his decision to sleep with her), regardless her Y chromosome. Any objection he later expressed could thus only be due to some sort of identity-based prejudice. If your idol has such a problem with transgendered people, then perhaps HE should exercise a little personal responsibility over HIS sexual choices.
This entire discussion is the result of identity-based prejudice. To defend such a prejudice is to assert that there is something "wrong" with transpeople that would saddle them with an obligation to inform other so that they could "protect" themselves from the transperson. Well, get over it. Transpeople are PEOPLE, and they're no reason to treat them like they have a disease or are guilty of a crime, and they are under no obligation to take any EXTRA percautionary steps before engaging in casual sex that ANYONE ELSE.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
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This entire discussion is the result of identity-based prejudice. To defend such a prejudice is to assert that there is something "wrong" with transpeople that would saddle them with an obligation to inform other so that they could "protect" themselves from the transperson. Well, get over it. Transpeople are PEOPLE, and they're no reason to treat them like they have a disease or are guilty of a crime, and they are under no obligation to take any EXTRA percautionary steps before engaging in casual sex that ANYONE ELSE.
H
I disagree. Parts of your blargument are wrong. Such as the use of the term idol when referring to me (intentional contention), and that Fatlip made a "decision to sleep with her".
idol |ˈīdl|
noun
an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
(source: New Oxford American Dictionary)
I challenge you to present evidence that I have elevated Falip to the image of a god or God and that I worship him. (also, though a talented emcee i have yet to see any evidence that I consider him "greatly admired, loved, or revered") I've used his situation as an example.
Rather, I present that you are trying to be invective in your argument and script, because you know you are speaking to a believer and that a term such as "idol" would carry a particular weight.
I challenge you to present evidence that Fatlip made a "decision to sleep with her." If you cant, I think you are biasly jumping to conclusions with speculation in your argument.
The fact remains that in practical application, my advice...
(I only give my opinion and advice, I dont order people to do things- if you choose to debate this, fine, but I am stating for all to see that you are encouraged to take my words as advisement. in the words of the great India.Aire "Dont be offended, this is all my opinion, ain't nothing that I'm saying law)
...will serve to protect more than to harm. That's the truth. Better safe than sorry. I recommend and think it would be kindest, and behoove ALL if transgendered peoples are forthcoming with anyone in a romantic setting if there is a shadow of the chance that the other party would not be comfortable with the fact. If someone consents under a false impression, (whether backed up by law or not) I dont think that is consenting. This is one of the first times Ive been viewed as conservative on a situation! It's trippy, but since I believe in what i'm saying, I welcome mai "conservatism". Perhaps with mai advice there wont be any victims on either side of the romance.
so glad to hear about Lawrence V. Texas in 2003, everyone should be able to be open about their anal sex, on that tip, sodomy is a reference to Sodom an Gomorrah in the Bible, and personally I think "sodomy" has a negative connotation. It's on my list of negative connotation words along with retarded.
I'm pleasantly surprised to see my thoughts so analyzed. Blackout accused me of:
"Defending people who resort to violence as a means of expressing their bigotry seems to be a trend in your blogs. "
I disagree. I dont defend bigots. It does seem I'm more sympathetic to all involved in a given situation than your arguments represent of you. I see things in shades of gray. Even with Fatlip.
A friend of mine said "if my friend said he made out with a guy he thought was a girl, i'd be like, dayum man that shouldn't have happened and that's fucked up that happened to you! But if my transgendered friend said I was making out with this guy, and when he found I am transgendered, he punched me, I'd be like dayum, that shouldn't have happened, that's fucked!"
I agree. circumspect. Transgendered people are PEOPLE. People who dont want to get it on with transgendered people are PEOPLE. I respect them BOTH. I dont see the latter as bigots. Jerry is not a bigot. I dont know Fatlip, and i suspect, neither do you.
In an attempt to reduce redundancy, I'll reply when any given comment warrants NEW info from me. Hopefully this should enthuse all.
***EDITED for html on 01/23/2009: I fixed the quote box for you. ~ Blackout.***
I present that you are trying to be invective in your argument and script, because you know you are speaking to a believer and that a term such as "idol" would carry a particular weight.
Point of Fact. Yours isn't the only defintion of "idol." I couldn't find an online source for the New Oxford American Dictionary," but I was able to find your exact definition in a reference to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary. As you might notice, there are two definitions...
Now, considering that I specifically used the term "celebrity idol," it would seem obvious to me that someone who took the time to look up the word would have noticed the second defintion and realized that it was the appropitate one to apply in this case. But...if you are so hypersenstive about your religious beliefs that you are able to inflict discomfort on yourself by grasping at some other interpretation that you have imagined while in the midst of some fanatical fit...well, HOORAY! I'll count that as a lucy bonus for me.
I challenge you to present evidence that Fatlip made a "decision to sleep with her." If you cant, I think you are biasly jumping to conclusions with speculation in your argument.
Fortunately, I can. YOUR OWN BLOG states that...
Now, I won't go so far as to call myself an expert on fellatio...oh, what the heck...yes I will. As an expert on fellatio, I can assure you that its damn near impossible to give head to anyone who doesn't want you to. Also, the term "making out" certainly doesn't imply that there was any sort of forced sexual contact, and in fact implies exactly the opposite. Now, it is possible that YOU have misresented the facts, but based on what you wrote, I can't see how one would rationally reach the conclusion that the sex being described wasn't consenual.
t remains that in practical application, my advice......will serve to protect more than to harm.
Perhaps...or perhaps not. I would suggest that the anecdotes you have provided do not suggest that revealing one's transgendered status to people is exactly a safe thing to do. LGBT people face a significantly higer rate of identity-motivated violence than almost any other community, and our trans-brothers and sisters often get the worst of that statistical risk. Given that fact, I'm not prone to judge a transgendered person who is perhaps overly cautious about revealing their status. Assaults on transpeople like the one you described would seem to justify that caution.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Point of Fact. Yours isn't the only defintion of "idol." I couldn't find an online source for the New Oxford American Dictionary," but I was able to find your exact definition in a reference to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary. As you might notice, there are two definitions...
quote from Mai
"I challenge you to present evidence that I have elevated Falip to the image of a god or God and that I worship him. (also, though a talented emcee i have yet to see any evidence that I consider him "greatly admired, loved, or revered") I've used his situation as an example."
Blackout do you read the blogs or do you just skim through them to prepare an argument?
Oh and Fatlip aside. Be sexually responsible. Whether you always think so or act like it, putting your genitals in someones mouth is not something you should do lightly and certain information is important.
But hey it's your world.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Goodnight everybody.
***Edited for html on 01/24/2009. Please remember to close your tags. ~ Blackout***
Perhaps I was a bit unclear, but what promoted my response was this...
Rather, I present that you are trying to be invective in your argument and script, because you know you are speaking to a believer and that a term such as "idol" would carry a particular weight.
She obviously chose to base her perceived offense on the religious definition, even though there was no real context to support that interpretation. I believe she was LOOKING for a reason to be offended, and so I chose to poke fun at her hypersensitivity.
But back to the topic at hand... Do you have anything substantial to add to the conversation, or are you just trying to get in a shot?
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
---
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in your comment at all until you explained it here.
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The constitution allows the state of Alabama (and up until very recently Texas- and probably other states, you do the research) to make dildos illegal. Yea that's fair, rational, unbiased.... and constitutional!!!
How is this comment in any way, shape or form relevant to this discussion?
And since you are too lazy to do your own research, the Supreme Courts of Colorado, Kansas and Louisiana have ruled that anti-sex toy laws are unconstitutional, while Georgia, Mississippi and Texas have ruled that those laws ARE legal. The U.S. Supreme Court, has not to my knowledge ever heard a case on the subject, thus leaving the question of whether or not these laws are truly constitution unwanswered. If you think the sex-toy situation is unbearable, you should seek redress through the Courts (that's what they're for).
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
sex toys are legal in Texas now
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And since you are too lazy...
Shame on Progressiveu.org for not truly holding their Faculty Members to higher standards of conduct as more than one of them have claimed/promised to do. When their Faculty Members use insults such as the one above repeatedly. Their own 'ambassadors' don't 'play fair' on the 'playground'. INVECTIVE! ABUSIVE!
That was hardly an insult. We're all adults here (or nearly adults)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I disagree.
...YOU are expected to do YOUR OWN research. Asking others to do YOUR research for you is a common faux pas of netiquette. Its bad form and its LAZY. As for this being a ToS violation, I'm very conversant in our rules, and nothing said here has violated those terms. If you disagree, feel free to flag the comment, and another moderator will take a look.
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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Really? How?
for a definition of "abusive," see http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abusive
I personally am a little suspicious of you and your intellectual integrity by way of your quick judgment which seems to bring you to the role of the victim frequently, with little to no regard for any actual intellectual challenge presented to you, other than a quick, one handed, open faced dismissal of any challenge whatsoever.
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I said this above:
I cant image that most people in this day in age would condemn any number of consenting adults for engaging in sexual behavior (not in public) of any sort. Consenting is important though. CONSENTING!
now we are talking about how the constitution would support (they dont have to fucking rule on this in court) inhibiting consenting adults to have sex how they choose, how is the fact that Alabama (if 1 state doesn't allow this that's 1 state too many therefore i dont have to list each and every state with the same biased laws, and by not choosing to do so doesn't make me lazy. I just wish blackout was too lazy to blargue, in fact it seems you blog to engage in blarguments, which i think is unnecessary and pitiful) makes using dildos unlawful NOT relevant to that point?
God Bless
duplicate post
triplicate post. What the heck? I had no idea.
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I didn't understand anything you said in this post.
If this is what you call "blarguing," I have better things to do. There is enough of a challenge in trying to understand people who *try* to make sense.
Dildos? At least dildos are tangible, and from what i understand, not regulated, which is a good thing.
for those men intimidated by dildos, one can make a plaster of their own penis as a gift to their lover so that they might have some part in the solitary sexual play of their partner. the materials used for the final product are very lifelike.
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duplicate post
I said this above:
I cant image that most people in this day in age would condemn any number of consenting adults for engaging in sexual behavior (not in public) of any sort. Consenting is important though. CONSENTING!
You also said this...
The constitution allows the state of Alabama (and up until very recently Texas- and probably other states, you do the research) to make dildos illegal. Yea that's fair, rational, unbiased.... and constitutional!!!
The only thing that I took you to task for was your demand for other people to do the research of "fact" that you used in support of your comments (which was completely off-topic, but hey...). That's bad netiquette. As for this...
now we are talking about how the constitution would support (they dont have to fucking rule on this in court) inhibiting consenting adults to have sex how they choose, how is the fact that Alabama (if 1 state doesn't allow this that's 1 state too many therefore i dont have to list each and every state with the same biased laws, and by not choosing to do so doesn't make me lazy. I just wish blackout was too lazy to blargue, in fact it seems you blog to engage in blarguments, which i think is unnecessary and pitiful) makes using dildos unlawful NOT relevant to that point?
Methinks the pot doth call the kettle black. Let's be frank, here. You've just sore because I exposed your hypocritical and poorly informed positions in other blogs, and now you're hoping to play the victim card and evoke some sympathy from the ProU peanut gallery. While you work on that, you might perhaps wish to re-read my comments a little more carefully. And, if you REALLY think that your(?) State is violating the federal constitution, you have the right to seek redress. That's one of the reasons that we have a Supreme Court. The very Constitution whose relevance you dismiss also protects your right to bitch about it.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
H
I don't play cards outside of 'go fish'. I dont need sympathy, just a record. Because I dont trust your peanut gallery to hold you to any regulated online etiquette. Plain and Simple. So I will point out whatever issue I feel like. And in the words of the infamous jackbenimble "I frankly dont give a damn what you think" about me. You have also displayed bad internet manners often, kettle. If one was to model their arguments off of your behavior they would likely be kicked off.
Also, when I'm unclear (which I apologize for), ask for clarification. If you dont, I assume you understand. I, unlike everyone (everyone's not the same), also have very little interest in blarguing.
Also "you do the research" was never a demand. Because I rightly assumed that Alabama is not the only state with a law against dildos, I invited anyone interested (hate on me because I'm not interested in knowing all the states? that's silly) to find out more. I didn't need more than one example to site my distrust of the constitution.
Furthermore, it seems you have issue because I dont LOVE the constitution... hehehe I DONT LOVE THE CONSTITUTION.
I don't play cards outside of 'go fish'.
What? That doesn't make any sense.
I dont need sympathy, just a record.
I think your actions suggest otherwise...
Because I dont trust your peanut gallery to hold you to any regulated online etiquette.
Your trust is not required. You post here at the whim of the owners of this website. As long as THEY are satisfied that the rules are being observed, that's the end of the argument.
Plain and Simple. So I will point out whatever issue I feel like.
By all means, please do...but you should be aware that other memebers of ProU have that same option.
And in the words of the infamous jackbenimble "I frankly dont give a damn what you think" about me.
I beg to differ, based on your incessant complaints (both in the blogs and to the moderators). But hey, I don't say the things that I say for YOUR benefit unless I am speaking as a moderator (which I am not, in this case).
You have also displayed bad internet manners often, kettle. If one was to model their arguments off of your behavior they would likely be kicked off.
As a long time member (and moderator) of ProU, I would suggest that (once again) you really don't know what you are talking about. If you don't like the way that the rules are enforced, you have the freedom to seek other avenues of expressing yourself. I happen to know EXACTLY where the line is between acceptable and unacceptable posting habits, because I have crossed that line before, and been taken to heel for doing so by the other moderators.
Also, when I'm unclear (which I apologize for), ask for clarification. If you dont, I assume you understand. I, unlike everyone (everyone's not the same), also have very little interest in blarguing.
You are very unclear. Please clarify how ANY of this tangental bullshit about sex toys and the constitutionality of laws regulating their sale relates to the subject of "trangender secrecy."
Also "you do the research" was never a demand. Because I rightly assumed that Alabama is not the only state with a law against dildos, I invited anyone interested (hate on me because I'm not interested in knowing all the states? that's silly) to find out more. I didn't need more than one example to site my distrust of the constitution.
I can only respond to what you acutally said, not what you meant. I would however suggest that if this is an important subject to you, then you would do well to better inform yourself before launching into a rant. It is difficult for people to take your outrage seriously, when you (obvious) don't know very much about the subject of you ire.
Furthermore, it seems you have issue because I dont LOVE the constitution... hehehe I DONT LOVE THE CONSTITUTION.
I'll keep that in mind. I think that you will have a hard time making the case that your rights are being infringed upon if you dismiss the relevance of that document, but hey...to each her own.
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I wanted to respond to some of Mai's allegations, but you already did it for me.
I just want to emphasize my support of your challenge to her dis-"Love" of the Constitution, and to her general insensibility. I still don't really understand her thoughts, except for a general impression that she enjoys *resisting* any and every one who disagrees or merely challenges her poorly organized *propositions*.
I recall seeing a link for her blog about the value of *blarguing,* yet she accuses you of insensible blarguing.
I really don't get her, and the more I read of her, the less I want to.
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As long as it does not affect their partner's health, I don't think that transgendered should feel obligated to reveal their changes until they feel comfortable. Afterall, some things need to wait until you are comfortable with the person. You just don't reveal everthing about yourself immediately after you begin a relationship. I know gender reassignment is a big secret to keep, but if you aren't sure the relationship will last longer than a few months, maybe it isn't the worst thing that they don't know.
Like what you've read? Well, then here's more:
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/tricia0711
However, it is their obligation to make this information known to anyone they want to be romantically involved with.
Do you sit down with every guy (or girl) you find attractive and go over every single detail of your sexual history with them before you even go on a first date? How about before you hold hands? Before your first kiss? Most people don't do this, and why would they? The important point, in my opinion, isn't prior to the first instance of sexual intimacy, but rather at the point that a relationship becomes emotionally serious that you should begin to reveal your truly private life history and experiences. And even then, I can't see doing so as an "obligation." I mean, is it SMART thing to do? I think so, yes. Why? Because in order of a relationship to thrive, honesty between partners is (imo) essential, and a secret like that could easily destroy a relationship (because of the deception, not because of the person's new gender). But to suggest that someone OWES you the details of their private life isn't a proposition that I can support.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
That's essentially what I was trying to say, but you did a much better job.
Like what you've read? Well, then here's more:
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/tricia0711
It's hard to say rather or not they should have to disclose this info to everyone they date. In some cases it could be a matter of personal safety. In some cases, their romantic partner may feel lied to and just mite hurt them, especially far into a relationship-- maybe it be better to never begin the relationship in the first place, but then, some partners mite feel that no matter what, this is the person they love and it doesn't matter what their gender used to be. Unfortnately, there's no way to know how one will react until the time comes. all i can say is that I feel sorry that they have to think of all of this when they enter a relationship. I'm sure it's not this dramatic, but it's gotta be in the back of their minds any time they meet someone new.
maybe it be better to never begin the relationship in the first place,
I hope not, everybody should be able to seek and find romantic love.
Unfortnately, there's no way to know how one will react until the time comes.
You are EXACTLY right. And why not make that time right at the jump of a romantic episode? If you tell someone at the beginning, and they are cool with it, AWESOME, perhaps even IDEAL. If you tell someone at the beginning and they are not cool with it, fine, you don't need them anyway, they don't know what they are missing etc. But then both parties are less likely to be hurt in ANY way.
Oh, and if you tell at the beginning and they are violent, press charges, and be glad you found out what kind of nut-job you were dealing with before you got in to deep and caught up...
...and if you weren't planning on getting in deep in the first place (casual) you can be glad that nut-job didn't (undeservedly) get any of your goodies.
But were this to happen to me I would be extemely disgusted, extremely angry and feeling very violated. I find the very thought of having sex with someone who used to be a man and despite surgery is a long ways from actually being a woman, repulsive. In my opinion, it is beyond reprehensible to be intimate with someone without clueing them in on this important detail.
I probably would not beat the crap out of the transgender person but I sure would feel like doing so. The only reason I would not is because I have no desire to be in jail.
I would instead take my revenge with an indelible Sharpie on every public bathroom wall that I ever ventured into. I would consider it a civic duty to keep other men from being deceived and taken advantage of in a similar manner.
Seeing as you're a "personal responsibility" kind of guy, would you not agree that you should take personal responsibility for your own sexual activity, and perhaps think to at least ask before you make the decision to be intimate with someone...especially if it matters their chromosomes matter that much to you?
If there were no legal consequences for doing so, would you actually (at least try to) beat up the transgendered person? What is it that would make you so angry? Is it really because they didn't tell you, or do you think it would be your own shame for having been attracted to them that would make you act so barbarically? Assuming that you were attracted to this person before you found out they were transgendered, what do you think that says about your reaction?
Just wondering,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
No, it is not my responsibility to ask. It is his responsibiliy to tell. A transgender person has reasonable cause to believe that a very significant proportion of the population will react in a manner similar to mine and will consider their behavior deceptive, perverse, a gross physical violation and perhaps a spiritual sin. On the otherhand, less than one percent of the population is transgender. It is not a question that reasonable people could be expected to even think of.
Shame is not the word. Disgusted and violated is better. Your question is in many ways analogous to trying to lay the blame on a rape victim. I'd feel used and unwillingly involved in what I consider to be a perversion.
You may consider violence barbaric but I am not particularly bothered by it. I live in Wyoming and bar fights are a fairly common thing. I've been involved in several and suffered no harm that didn't heal. I generally find those which I am not involved in great entertainment. I really have no problem with knocking the crap out of somebody who deserves it and I think society was in many ways a more civil place when people understood that they needed to behave politely, decently and with a sense of honor or suffer immediate consequences. But these days there is always the risk of getting in trouble with the law. If I had a few drinks in me and I found myself unknowingly deceived into a perverse relationship with a transgender person, if I did not need to worry about the law there is a good chance but not a certainty they would get a beating.
you get more disgusting my the minute.
No, it is not my responsibility to ask. It is his responsibiliy to tell.
That's the excuse men try to use when they have sex with underaged girls. It's the old, "well, she looked 18"
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The difference is that EVERY girl is at some point in her life under the age of 18. Men CAN REASONABLY be expected to ask.
On the otherhand, maybe one in a million people is a transgender. It is not very reasonable to require that to be one of the questions that gets asked. On the otherhand those very rare transgender people no damn well that they are extremely out of the ordinary and that a large segment of the population has no desire to be involved in an intimate perverse relationship with them. The onnus is on them.
No, it is not my responsibility to ask. It is his responsibiliy to tell.
That sounds a bit inconsistent with the whole "personal responsibility" thing. If YOU make the choice to be intimate with someone, it seems perfectly reasonable to me for YOU to take at least half of the responsibility for the encounter. If you're willing to sleep with someone without taking the time to really get to know them, first, that kind of what you get, IMHO.
A transgender person has reasonable cause to believe that a very significant proportion of the population will react in a manner similar to mine and will consider their behavior deceptive, perverse, a gross physical violation and perhaps a spiritual sin. On the other hand, less than one percent of the population is transgender. It is not a question that reasonable people could be expected to even think of.
I find in incomprehensible to argue that anyone should be expected to alter their behavior to compensate for YOUR bigotry. And, it most certainly IS a reasonable thing to expect from YOU, if YOU are so adverse to the possibility that it will provoke YOU into violence. And, how is it deceptive? Unless you delve thoroughly into the personal medical and relationship history of every single person that you sleep with (even one-night-stands), then this standard is extremely hypocritical. You do tip your hand for us, though, when you mention that "some people" (like jackbenimble, I don't doubt) consider being transgendered "a spiritual sin." It always seems to come back to religious prejudice when people are trying to justify their desire to discriminate against or assault LGBT people. I would suggest that if you are so worried about "spiritual sins" then maybe you shouldn't be sleeping around with people you barely know, anyway.
Shame is not the word. Disgusted and violated is better. Your question is in many ways analogous to trying to lay the blame on a rape victim. I'd feel used and unwillingly involved in what I consider to be a perversion.
I don't buy it. There has been significant research that suggests that strong homophobic reactions are often rooted in the repressed same-sex attractions of the homophobic person.
You may consider violence barbaric but I am not particularly bothered by it. I live in Wyoming and bar fights are a fairly common thing. I've been involved in several and suffered no harm that didn't heal. I generally find those which I am not involved in great entertainment. I really have no problem with knocking the crap out of somebody who deserves it and I think society was in many ways a more civil place when people understood that they needed to behave politely, decently and with a sense of honor or suffer immediate consequences. But these days there is always the risk of getting in trouble with the law. If I had a few drinks in me and I found myself unknowingly deceived into a perverse relationship with a transgender person, if I did not need to worry about the law there is a good chance but not a certainty they would get a beating.
I think that says a LOT about the kind of person that you are. If this is the way that you truly feel, then I think you have a lot of gall to call anyone else, "perverse."
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
As I said in the title to my first post in this thread, " Call me a bigot or whatever". I frankly don't give a damn what you think.
I do in fact take responsibility for my sexual relationships. I am happily married and have never strayed sexually from committed monogamy and don't plan to start.
It is unlikely that it will ever happen but I am more likely to encounter this situation in the role of juror then participant. So long as the beating stops short of death then I vote to acquit.
As I said in the title to my first post in this thread, " Call me a bigot or whatever". I frankly don't give a damn what you think.
...of calling you a "bigot," as doing so directly would result in a ToS violation.
I do in fact take responsibility for my sexual relationships. I am happily married and have never strayed sexually from committed monogamy and don't plan to start.
That seems a bit disingenuous. The entire scenario was hypothetical.
It is unlikely that it will ever happen but I am more likely to encounter this situation in the role of juror then participant. So long as the beating stops short of death then I vote to acquit.
I would suggest that as a juror, you should base your verdict on the contents of the Law, rather than on any personal bigotries that you may possess. Doing otherwise would be criminal. Of course, your willingness to solve your personal identity issues through violence suggests that you are prone to criminal behavior, anyway, so I suppose it wouldn't be a great leap for you to corrupt our legal system with your personal biases.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Are you past adolescence yet?
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Jackbenimble
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Meke likes to follow me around to just about every thread where I post and throw out little insults at my posts without really adding anything of substance to the debate or conversation. I really don't mind and I actually find it kind of amusing. Whatever turns her crank.
I don't follow you around. It's just that whenever I see ridiculous comment, it just happens to be from you. Of course it's not surprising that you would pass that off on someone else instead of examining yourself.
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I have had that experience. Mai used to do that to me, but she tried to pose as an interested and sympathetic soul. It didn't work very well.
I also found it amusing, and am amused to return the favor.
Whatever turns any crank, turning is a good thing.
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