I have been wondering and writing about problems in the middle east as they relate to the religion of Islam. I have been asking for feedback from actual Muslims. I have received none. This distresses me.
I happened to trip onto a blog posted by someone who gave the impression that he/she lived in Iraq, and had first hand knowledge of what it is like to live next to American soldiers stationed there. This person identified him/herself as Muslim. This is exactly the kind of person I want to talk to.
It was obvious that this person's first language was not English. It was difficult to read, but the main idea was easy to grasp. The grammar was terrible, and so was the spelling. I didn't mind, i was so excited to see what this person could teach me.
The first comment was a reprimand for using bad grammar. The person never responded back or wrote another blog. They left ProU. I am very saddened by this. In vain I posted a comment basically saying, "Wait, no, please don't go..." Too late.
I have read a lot of posts about learning languages, and how to do it right, and how it is a social responsibility, etc. I love language, and I have become very comfortable with my own. I have studied French and German, but I've never been to France or Germany. I have never studied Spanish and I live near Mexico and I meet people every day who I don't understand, but I need to help. I understand that linguists sometimes have a right to be elitists.
At the same time, should we be so quick to judge? This person dared to attempt communicating in a foreign language that uses a different alphabet than his/her own. This person was taking a big risk, reaching out, hoping someone in America could hear and understand his/her frustration. I think I could have done that, and i would have been enriched by the experience. instead, that person is going to stay where they feel safe, and will continue to wonder if anyone in America cares.
I agree that English learners deserve to be cut a great deal of slack. Some English learners apologize up front for their lack of command of the language and this seems to be a pretty good strategy. I've seldom seen anybody who started their comment with "Forgive my poor English ability" catch any flack. But there is no real reason to heap flack on somebody who is obviously a learner with or without them begging for mercy.
I can speak Spanish moderately well but with a horrible accent. I can understand quite a bit of what I hear in Spanish but sometimes it is too fast and too colloquial and abbreviated. I can read it much better. I don't even attempt to write more than a sentence or two and I'm sure I make a hash of those. I respect English learners who give it a try.
I have a good education but I have become a poor speller and it seems to be a problem that is getting worse. Maybe it is early alzheimer's. I am generally horrified when I hit the spell checker button because lots of words that I know that I know how to spell are spelled wrong. It is almost like dyslexia or something because they actually don't look wrong to me until I focus on them letter by letter. Given my own disability I certainly don't feel the need to criticize others. I do humorously point out the occasional unintended double entendre or Freudian slip.
I'm far more interested in the content of a post then its technical correctness. I learn from some, see some that I agree with and others that I feel need to be criticized or challenge.
Generally, those who say up front that English is not their first language will be ignored by those who are anal about grammar and helped by those who want to see the person progress. Since most of the people on this site, as far as I'm aware, are high school and college students from the US, we expect them to have a proper command of the English language, and it really is pitiful how many do not. In fact, I remember one post from someone who said she was an English major, and actually stated that she would disregard all grammar rules when using the site, in order to get away from the stringency of her major. That, I think, is rather despicable.
Without them saying up front that they're still learning, it's difficult to say who just has a poor command (or is just lazy), and those who are still learning.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
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About people choosing to not read at all or trying to help the person. This person didn't say English was not their first language, but they did say they were Muslim and lived in Iraq, so I think a person could put two and two together. I wish the commentee had just moved on instead of posting a comment about the obvious.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
In fact, I remember one post from someone who said she was an English major, and actually stated that she would disregard all grammar rules when using the site, in order to get away from the stringency of her major.
It's people like that that I can't tolerate. I'm lenient when it comes to a few spelling/grammar mistakes, but when they don't even bother to make their words intelligible, that's where I draw the line.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
If English is not your first language, I can understand grammatical errors. That's one thing. But if you have grown up learning English as your first language and you are not dyslexic, I don't think you have any excuse not to have somewhat decent grammar. It's important to understanding a language. Grammatical mistakes are one thing, everyone makes those; but a complete lack of effort to make your writing intelligible is quite another.
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Do read my post fully. Not only does it help you understand my point instead of making rash statements, but it also gives me some semblance of faith that people can read and understand an argument.
Agreed. Usually, when I find posts that are poorly written and it doesn't appear that the person was just lazy, I try to help them (how are they going to know if they're right or wrong if no one tells them?). When they start getting all "this isn't English class!" is when I start reprimanding them, but not before.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
I sympathize with those who are trying to communicate with people who speak English when they speak little English. I have a lot of family in Italy and communicating with them on Facebook chat is interesting, because both of our messages are a mix of Italian and English.
However, I find no excuse for those who have been raised in the English language to have poor grammar. A more detailed opinion of this can be found on my blog post:
http://progressiveu.org/blog/49213-languageinsight-person
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
"It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
~Mother Teresa
You said you were looking for middle eastern people to talk to. I can remember the few and far between that have moved on from as far as I can tell. I wrote of one experience ( shameless self promote with laziness to create a pretty link: http://www.progressiveu.org/225544-corruption-innocence-saudi-experience)
I think the user was 'asmaw' and she wrote of her religion often and fairly well. (again with the laziness to create a pretty link: http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/saadatw)
I will see what else I can find.
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
"shameless self promote with laziness to create a pretty link: " I do that all the time, I didn't know I could make a link pretty.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Ah man I wanted to be lazy and not have to create any pretty links let alone explain how...
You can find how to link in a new post here, but I already think you know how to do that.
The how to on doing it in comment and some other cool features can be found here.
If I were not so lazy my shameless self promotion would have looked like this:
Shamless Self promotion
And Asmaw's reference would have looked like this:
Asmaw
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
asmaw was pretty cool, but she hasn't been on the site in a long time. Sadness :(
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
I know, I started reading some of her things again and I sure wish she would come back and teach us more.
*Tears* Sniff*
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
I did go to her blog, and I have a lot of reading to do! How refreshing! and sad, since she isn't around now. :{
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
a journey through organized chaos
enjoy :)
"I'm more like a fool for soul and passion....
I watch crash, and realize that we all survivors
no religion or race, whatever describe us." -Forever Begins, Common
http://www.progressiveu.org/012450-old-and-gold-times-change-my-immigran...
I am so excited!
:yay:
Are you back!
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
don't want to break them. i'll just do my best and write when I am compelled to...
which will probably be very often, i might comment more than actually write...
i'm not going to be actively trying to win anything :)
"I'm more like a fool for soul and passion....
I watch crash, and realize that we all survivors
no religion or race, whatever describe us." -Forever Begins, Common
http://www.progressiveu.org/012450-old-and-gold-times-change-my-immigran...
Thank you Thank you Thank you! :dances: _o.o_
I've been looking for you! Now we can get dirty.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
lol, i'm just saying don't expect too much...
I'd hate to break others hearts/dash their hopes
"I'm more like a fool for soul and passion....
I watch crash, and realize that we all survivors
no religion or race, whatever describe us." -Forever Begins, Common
http://www.progressiveu.org/012450-old-and-gold-times-change-my-immigran...