*long entry alert*
I was sick quite often as a teenager and as a result, was stuck in the house quite frequently. It was frustrating and it was boring. In order to keep myself sane during those home bound days, I started chatting online. I visited all sorts of different chatrooms, but was most frequently in the Pagan geared rooms. I quickly learned that being a teenager and being Pagan put you in a category somewhere between "not to be taken seriously" and "detrimental to Pagan community."
It didn't really matter who you were, if you confessed to being a teenager to the older Pagan crowd, you were often met with all sorts of ridiculousness. You were giving Pagans a bad name, going through a phase, not Pagan at all, a wanna be, or watching too much Charmed. The list goes on.
It was frustrating.
To hell with that I thought one day.
I started a room for Pagan teenagers. Those that got tired of the same crap that I'd gotten tired of often found their way to the room; teens and adults alike. It wasn't much, but the environment was more relaxed, there was no fighting and you weren't frozen out of discussion simply for being a teenager or for not being Pagan at all. I kept it up for several years and it evolved into a series of rooms with a huge moderation staff and a slew of frequent visitors. I didn't have as much time to be there as I had when I was younger, but I still popped in to visit when I could.
One day, this girl named Nikki popped up in the room on one of my visits. We called her Miss Raven. We started chatting back and forth and had a blast. She was older than me, in her mid 20s, and going back to college in Florida after dropping out when she was younger. We both loved music and loved to read. We both had big educational goals. She started visiting the room regularly.
Another regular joined our chats when we were both around. He could be sweet when he wanted too and Nikki liked him. They became friends. I logged in one day and Nikki pounced. The guy was going to be in her area for some sort of festival and they were going to meet up for drinks. She was nervous about it.
They met up. I excitedly awaited to hear how it went. Days later... I still hadn't heard anything. The next day, the guy reappeared. I'll never forget that.
"That fucking freak is a he!!!!" He ranted and raved and none of it made a bit of sense.
He finally calmed down and we got the story. He and Nikki met up at her apartment as they had planned. Only, when Nikki answered the door, it wasn't the Nikki he was expecting. Nikki was transgendered.
I was a little hurt. We'd been talking for months... and she'd never once told me. I wondered why. I figured she knew by that point that I wouldn't think badly of her. I felt like she should have known me well enough to know that. I was disappointed that she hadn't told me and hadn't told this other guy. I was angry at him for being such an ass about it. I was angry at those who made snide remarks about Nikki.
None of it really made any sense to me and she never came around to explain it. I tried to message her to no avail. I stewed over it for weeks.
A month later she finally messaged me. "Do you hate me?"
Hate her? I was hurt and didn't really understand why she hadn't told me. But hate her? Not even close. I told her as much and asked why she hadn't told me.
She told me her story.
Nikki was born a man and never felt right about it. She made the decision at 18 to start living as a woman and her family disowned her as a result. She hadn't spoken to them since. She learned to provide for herself and eventually made it into college. The constant crap flung her way because she chose to live life her way and be true to herself led to her eventually dropping out. She grew more and more depressed and tried to kill herself.
She started picking up the pieces. Over and over. And eventually, she stopped telling people that she was born a man. It was easier, she said, to pretend it didn't exist than to deal with the hostility and heartache that continually cropped up otherwise. She figured when she met up with this guy, she would tell him then. It would go over better, to her way of thinking, if she did it in person instead of tossing it in as an "oh by the way" in a phone call.
It didn't work out that way. He freaked out about it when she told him and left. She realized that eventually it would make its way back to us. She didn't want to know how it would go over. She stopped coming around. Eventually, she couldn't take that anymore either and had to know if I hated her.
By the time she finished, I understood full well why she hadn't told me. It was heartbreaking, but I understood. Had I been in her shoes, had my family reviled me, had yet another person acted the way this guy had... I'd probably be lacking faith in the human population as well.
She asked for forgiveness. I told her there was really nothing to forgive, that I understood and wasn't angry. We parted on friendly terms that day, though we no longer talked. I wanted too, but I suppose talking to me was a reminder to her of everything that had happened. It was depressing, but again, I understood.
Soon thereafter, I stopped going to the rooms I'd created at all. I'd always thought the people that visited were decent people. The reaction of some of the users when the guy talked to them about Nikki... some of them just didn't seem like decent people anymore after that. I'd expected more from the Pagan community, particularly of one that had been so accepting of the oft considered leprous teenage Pagan community and so willing to include those from other religious groups. I hated the fact that the acceptance hadn't been as all encompassing as I'd always thought it was and the fact that something I'd helped create had suddenly become this negative thing it was never meant to be.
I never imagined that it would become a reminder that intolerance dwells in every community and that even those who have been at the receiving end of intolerance can be just as intolerant as those who have never experienced it. But it did. It was a heartbreaking lesson and a heartbreaking reminder.
Doing a search tonight, I came across a listing for the website we used to host as part of that network of chatrooms. The website is no longer there but it still shows up in Google for some reason. When I saw it; it made me think of Nikki and her situation and everything the GLBT rights movement has come to mean to me as a result. When I think about the GLBT community... it's always Nikki I think about.
That's usually what I think about when I think about that site too. It's hard to look back and not remember how it ended... and how very disillusioned I was with it at the end. Those memories are forever tied in my mind. I don't regret having created the room. I learned a lot from it about people, about tolerance, and about what I would never become in my life. I got involved with a cause worthy of involvement afterward. But, even knowing all of that... there is a definite tinge of sadness.
Seeing that listing tonight, it also made me wonder if Nikki ever comes across the listings for that site... and what she remembers when she thinks back on that year. Does it remind her of intolerance and all of the times she's been shunned for being who she is? Or is she able to look back and chuckle over one of our more outlandish conversations without the taint of sadness?
Whatever those memories, I hope she knows she doesn't have to carry that burden alone.. and hasn't for a long time. And wherever she is now... I hope she knows that my family at least, will fight for her... so that someday, she won't have to fight at all.
But mostly... I just hope she's okay and that life has finally given her reason to smile.
You always make me cry! This was beautiful and I love you so much for being a staunch ally.
:{
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Aw, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you cry! I just came across that listing last night and realized I'd never really shared here why GLBT rights are important to me. That kind of made me sad. I think her story should be shared... over and over and over if necessary. But I am glad to be an ally. If ever a community needed them... it's the GLBT community.
One day... we will get there!
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
It's always so sad when people you think you know turn out to be real jerks. Seriously.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
Yeah it is. And it's certainly a learning experience too. I'm a lot less idealistic about people now, for sure.
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
Fear is an amazing thing even for logic based personalities.
I have a story of a friend that told me the only way she could figure to discuss her situation without being caught. Suprisingly, it was here but I do not have time right now to go into all the details...maybe another time since I have spent to much time reading your awesome post and away from the cramming session.
I just hope none of us here have to leave this site from disappointment.
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
I hope no one leaves ProU disillusioned either. I was a total idealist where people I knew were concerned. To my way of thinking, if I liked someone... that person had to be a good person. I wouldn't have liked him/her otherwise. Talk about a heartbreaking way to find out that's not the way the world works!
I'm holding you to that later. I want to hear about your friend!
Good luck with the studying! What are you studying for?
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
Like any good ProUer I take my breaks here, esspecially when I can not find what I am looking for in my six books.
My third exam entails 'cognitive disorder and mobility/ sensory impairment', 'Theoretical approaches to Mental health care', 'Pharmacotherapuetics', 'Client teaching', and 'wound care'. Its about 14 chapters from three books and ten handouts; which I have read only three of and the test is wednesday, 75 questions... I am pretty sure I have time as long as the internet does not suck me in, the bed shopping does not take long, and the kids' colds do not get worse!
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
That sounds like one hell of an exam. I hope the kiddos are okay! Colds are no fun. Poor dears. :(
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
I think it is people like you that make humanity seem okay sometimes. I am a biological female, and a lesbian. A very, very, very femme lesbian. However, I generally prefer gender neutral pronouns and there are days when I will dress completely in drag, and my friends know that on these days I am not Nicole, I am Trace. I have personally gone through hell, so have many of my friends, and my girlfriend just because people don't understand that it is okay to be different than the minority.
So as a member of the GLBT community, I want to personally thank you for sticking up for this and for getting involved. Because it is people like you that help us get the rights and proper treatment that we deserve.
Props.
It really pisses me off that people continue to assume this mentality that it's okay to treat the GLBT community as if they aren't people and, far too often, brandish religion like a weapon to continue treating people that way. Are we really that lacking in compassion and basic humanity? Are we really that threatened?
It will never cease to amaze me that people will fight like madmen to keep their guns... but won't life a finger to ensure their neighbors can keep and live their lives. It's really no wonder so many lack faith in humanity. Humanity isn't nearly as humane as we'd like to think and nowhere is that more evident than it is when you hear the stories from those in the GLBT community.
I am so sorry you have gone through hell for being who you are. It's not acceptable and shouldn't be... to anyone.
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
One of my closest friends for much of my high school career was bi-sexual. The two of us became friends after he was being mocked in class one day and I asked the kid who was doing the mocking "how does it affect you who he is attracted to?"
Another friend of mine was a member of her school's Gay Straight Aliance but had to quit because her parents did not see it as a "Christian" club
And in my school, our Odysey of the Mind program was canceled because membership was low. It was low, in part, because one of the students who was an officer in it came out of the closet and no one wanted to be around him.
And I live in a very, very Blue state. The GLBT struggle is one of our last Civil Rights hurdle as a nation, and one of our highest.
"when you hold a pen, you are at war" Attributed to Voltaire
I always want to ask people if they sleep better at night knowing that they've went out of their way to be intolerant jackasses. It must make them feel pretty amazing to know that they can and do discriminate against people without a care as to how it makes that person feel. It's just such a humane and loving thing to do; they should sleep like babies knowing they've done the righteous thing and made the world a better place by being intolerant morons!
I'll never understand it.
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
I don't have one specific memory or person who first made me aware of the importance of this issue. In a way, I guess it started in high school. To be perfectly honest I would have to confess to being bisexual. I had a girlfriend way before i ever had a boyfriend. I am still attracted to women, but I am married to a man, and I am monogamous, so it's not really an identity I claim anymore.
I was "gothic" throughout high school. I had a friend, who was male, and gothic. He wore make-up and black tights, that kind of thing. He never really talked about his sexuality. Us girls all thought he was "hot" but he didn't seem interested in us sexually. We were friends though. He carried a journal and sometimes we would just pass it around and everyone would write random things, or we would have written conversations. I was pretty flirtatious with him, so some of the things I wrote were sexual in nature.
One day some asses in the lockrroom decided to jump him. They grabbed his journal, saw some of OUR sexual comments, and assumed it was his writing (very stupidly since there were more than 5 different handwritings). They used that as their excuse to to beat him up.
When I found out, I was beyond sad. I was pissed off. My friend never came back to school. He was a senior. I don't know if he just left and got his GED or what. I didn't even have his phone # (we didn't have cell phones then, and it was in a pretty rural area, I think I only had phone #s of about 3 of my friends). I never saw him again.
I made a point to make out with my girlfriend in front of those jock assholes and to belittle their manhood at the same time. Pretty immature, I know, but I was 15.
I don't know exactly why, but I have always had gay friends. I find homosexual men very attractive. i don't know if it's just because they are different, and I felt different too, or if it's because they tend to be more creative and intelligent than the rest of society, simply because their existence forces them to question the norm. I can't put my finger on an exact reason.
Being bisexual doesn't totally explain it to me either, because it is pretty safe in our world to be a bisexual female. Maybe that has something to do with it. I have always hated hipocrisy, and hipocrisy is what I saw when idiot boys would act "excited" about my girlfriend and I and ask us to make out, only to ridicule my friend who never identified himself as gay.
It doesn't matter why, but GLBT issues are extremely important to me. Another reason is that I know people who have tried to adopt and were denied, which really pisses me off because I know that any kid they adopted would have been WAY better off than being condemned to the foster care system.
Sorry for the lengthy rant, but I am really glad you posted this.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Another reason is that I know people who have tried to adopt and were denied, which really pisses me off because I know that any kid they adopted would have been WAY better off than being condemned to the foster care system.
My state just passed an amendment barring anyone who isn't married but cohabiting from adopting or fostering. And, of course, after it passed, some of those who voted for it were griping because they didn't realize what it was they were voting for. I just want to ask them if that really makes a difference. I mean, if they were willing to vote for it because they thought it applied to gay couples only, why make a fuss when the discrimination extended a little further than they intended? It's really infuriating.
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
I live in Arkansas too and it really bothered me when I heard that act passed. I voted against it and fliers were posted everywhere on my campus encouraging others to vote against, but I guess everyone's efforts just weren't enough. I will never understand what drives an individual to try and take away rights from one of their fellow human beings.
If it makes you feel any better, there is going to be a protest on it passing tomorrow in Little Rock. A bunch of people from my school are going, but unfortunately I won't be able to make it :(.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"The ink of a scholar is worth a thousand times more than the blood of a martyr."
- Lupe Fiasco -
I voted against it as well. I didn't know anything about a protest though. I'm in L.R. and am going to have to check it out. If possible... I am so there!
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
"I will never understand what drives an individual to try and take away rights from one of their fellow human beings."
That's a great way to point this out. When you state it like that, even some anti-gay people would have to see the logic in it. After all, the biggest crimes are when you take away someone else's rights.
I think it's great there's a protest! Pfft. And the older generation says we don't do things like this.
~ *~
This is a signature, an automated thingy that pops up when I comment, not a demand to see my blog!
Mind Control is Easier Than You Think
"I will never understand what drives an individual to try and take away rights from one of their fellow human beings."
That's a great way to point this out. When you state it like that, even some anti-gay people would have to see the logic in it. After all, the biggest crimes are when you take away someone else's rights.
Mind Control is Easier Than You Think
I disagree with the idea that even some anti-gay people would see the logic. To often their actions, and words have nothing to do with logic
"How can we win where fools can be kings" Muse
That's why I hedged the statement with "some". I can't hope to assume that all would see the logic.
~ *~
This is a signature, an automated thingy that pops up when I comment, not a demand to see my blog!
Mind Control is Easier Than You Think
What rights do you claim are being taken away? do you not realize that every citizen of the United states has the same rights? That is the purpose of our Constitution.
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
We're SUPPOSED to have the same rights, but that doesn't mean all our rights are RECOGNIZED.
So are you acknowledging that LGBT have the same rights or not? If you are acknowledging this, I understand that you may feel LGBT rights are not being recognized but what are you trying to accomplish then as far as legislation if the legislation is already there, right in our Constitution?
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
By definition, the U.S. Constitution (specifically, the Fourteenth Amendment) is very clear on the point...
The problem of course is that ideals are often just a wee bit loftier than reality. It is unfortunate, but the Constitution doesn't prevent Legislatures or even The People from enacting un-Constitutional laws. It does however provide citizens who are harmed by those laws to fight back, and to strike down those laws. There are numerous laws throughout the country that target gay and lesbian people in an un-Constitutional way. One by one, those laws are being struck down.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I completely agree with you. It is time for the mindset of people to change, for people to quit hating because they don't understand. I hope your friend, wherever she is and whatever she's doing, is happy.
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
Oh, that was beautiful. Just beautiful. I don't know what else to say but I can really empathize, some people can be so blindly harsh and have no idea how much they make the target party hurt.
One of my best friends was homosexual. I met him in 1987. He joined the marines around '92. His mother never was able to accept his sexuality and he killed himself around 2001. I wasn't told about it until several months later so I missed the funeral. ~angi~
...that even people who are prejudiced against can be just as prejudiced as the ones intolerant of them. Doesn't matter if you're Black, Jewish, Gay, or Pagan. You can still be intolerant of Whites, Baptists and sushi.
I wonder how I would have reacted to this story (and other similar ones) even two years ago, and whether or not I'd be so okay with it. In middle school, my first thought would have been "ew" when hearing about Nikki. Heck, even today seeing the commercials for that show about those who have switched their genders does creep me out on some level, but then I remind myself that I can't possibly understand what these people are going through. If you really feel you were "born into the wrong body" and we've got the medical advancements to fix that, why not make yourself happy and do the operation?
I hope Nikki is doing fine too, despite that unfortunate meeting-gone-wrong.
~ *~
This is a signature, an automated thingy that pops up when I comment, not a demand to see my blog!
Mind Control is Easier Than You Think
Your attitude of "If you really feel you were "born into the wrong body" and we've got the medical advancements to fix that, why not make yourself happy and do the operation?" is exactly what morals attempt to avoid. why don't you just say "if you hate Jews and you have the weapons to kill them and make you happy, why don't you just do it?" Life is not about making yourself happy, it is about devoting you life to others just a sJesus di in dying on the cross.
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
Killing someone is ending someone else's life against their will. Havinga sexual reassignment surgery doesn't hurt anyone else, and of all the transsexual people I know, not ONE has ever regretted their decision. They feel that the decision GAVE them a life. Are you really unable to see the difference between this and murder?
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
These people are hurting God in their sex change operations. The Lord gave them their sex for a reason and it is not there place to play creator and change to what they feel more comfortable in. Serving the Lord and salvation are about sacrifice; not doing whatever makes you feel happy.
I also disagree with your term "sexual reassignment surgery." These people did not assign themselves at birth to a particular gender or have another human assign them their gender. God assigned them to their gender and changing their sexual orientation is the same as going against the will of God and human nature.
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
They don't change their sexual orientation with sexual reassignment surgery. They change their sex. They don't change their gender, either, because gender is a psychological phenomenon (note that I said "phenomenon," not disorder) . A person who has a sexual reassignment surgery changes their physical sex to match the psychological gender that they feel.
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Your argument begs the question of the existence of the being you refer to as "god." Let me remind you that religious beliefs are matters of opinion, not fact, and thus make a poor source of support in arguments surrounding the subjects of human biology and psychology.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Would you not agree that the "psychological gender that they feel", in reference to ediblewoman's statement, are just as opinionated as you claim the existence of God is? Those that wish to change their gender are not acting on their factual and natural instincts imprinted on every person in their genome, but they are acting on their opinion.
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
Much of psychology is biological. It has not been proven yet whether belief in a supernatural being is biological, but it may yet be proven. Who knows? And who are we to judge?
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
...about the causes of transexualism. In fact, there is a growing body of research that suggests that the phenomenon is biologically based.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
And judging, condemning or otherwise belittling their decision isn't hurting God? It is, whether one agrees with it or not, their decision to make and their relationship with God is their responsibility.
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
Now I have seen a good many blogs and blog posts on Progressive-U, and I realize that it is a breeding ground for the liberals that wish to destroy the morals of the world, destroy the dignity and sanctity of human life, and tear apart our nation that was founded in Christianity. Yet this blog made me nearly cry: cry for poor souls that are misguided through this world. I pray that the Lord may reach them and that may be converted, but now I feel disillusioned. I cannot grasp what this world is coming too.
How can anyone join a pagan community blog and expect any "better treatment"? I am glad that the older pagans attempted to shun the "teen" pagans because it means that at least the older pagans that have given up on christ at least realize that there is still hope for the younger among them. You wrote that Nikki just never felt right being a man, but it is in our human genome. Obviously Nikki had a mental problem that could not be taken seriously. He needed help and guidance and if he did not feel right talking with his parents, I am truly sorry for him. He did have the option though to go to the church and at least make an attempt to connect with our Lord, who would have easily welcomed him as he does with any other human. Now I am sure that the Lord still loves Nikki even after his mistake. Nikki will certainly get that smile Fallon is looking for if he leads himself away from the pagan ridiculousness that has plagued his mind.
Now Fallon, I have been in many an argument with you but I have always respected your opinions. Yet now that i know you opinion i realize why you are so misguided. Paganism is not a religion, it is not a moral society, and it will not lead to salvation. Please realize that you have the opportunity to embrace God. No human should be mistreated, yet LGBT humans are misguided. It has nothing to do with their genome or any of that crap, they just need help. Granting these "rights", the basic of which they already have as any other U.S. citizen does, will not bring any of them closer to salvation.
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
Granting these "rights", the basic of which they already have as any other U.S. citizen does, will not bring any of them closer to salvation.
Nobody cares about salvation but the people who think they already have it. Your post is borderline ridiculous, I don't even know what else to say.
What about an eternal life with God is ridiculous? How come you were not taken aback by the paganism and its satanic rituals presented in the blog? I do not believe I have attained salvation and I will not know until I die, but once again I ask the question, what "rights" do you claim are being denied?
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
I am sorry I must be having trouble hearing this morning...did you just compare paganism with satanism? Because that is hardly possible...
WHat in the blog is a satanic ritual because I seem to have missed?
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
Yes, I am comparing paganism to satanism. any "religion," if you can call it that, that chooses to worship worldly things can be considered satanic as the devil tempts the Lord's children through earthly things.
More importantly however, you fail to answer my question. What "rights" of LGBT people are being denied?
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
That question was not possed to me so I did not feel the need to adress it but I will give it a shot.
LGBT are denied the right to die and live as people. You may not think marriage is that big of a deal in regards to any thing beyond unity and God. The fact is husbands and wives have medical and legal rights to each others lives and finances that you may or may not be aware of. They have economic control and liberties that non married people can not even begin to achieve with a team of lawyers and a forest of paperwork. LGBT do not even get common law benefits in states that have that law. So many people have to sit back in the background with no say when the love of their life needs someone to speak for them as the ignorant family does everything to destroy the person's wishes.
Basically they have no rights over their life as they have to manuever their love between fine lines of law.
What if I were to deny your rights as a man (or woman) to chose your wife (or husband) and pick the name of your children? Would you feel infringed upon.
The constitution says life, liberty and pursuit of hapiness and goes on to say that no law should be made based on religious views. The bible says do unto others as you would have done unto you and to love your neighbor (no exceptions mentioned).
I also want to mention to walk down the street unbattered or unasaulted holding hands as any other couple can does do. They also want to fight and die for their country as many of us do do.
I am sure the list could go on but I am severily inept when it comes to this sort of conversation especially since I do not associate in any way with this topic were I am at.
_Meke has an answer better then my ramblings i am sure.
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
You idea of salvation is not what's ridiculous. Your views about Paganism are ridiculous.The reason I was not taken aback by the paganism and it's satanic rituals presented in the blog is because...
1) Paganism isn't "satanic".
2) Only people who believe in Satan think things can be satanic.
3) If this is the blog I think it is there is nothing satanic about it (and nothing pagan in the way that you seem to think)
4) I'm not a child, Satan doesn't scare me
This is the blog about LGBT rights isn't it? Or do you compare being gay with satanism?
.
.
.
Actually, I think I know the answer to that.
As for what rights we're being denied how about the right to marry and adopt, two things that are very important to me.
... for so clearly demonstrating why it is I think Christianity is NOT a good thing.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
So you are telling me that Christianity, a religion of treating your neighbor as you would wish to be treated and a religion where we are asked to treat every other person as if they were Christ himself is not a good thing? Are you saying that the Christian organizations especially the Roman Catholic church, organizations which care for the sick, the disabled, and the poor more than all other organizations on earth combined is a bad organization?
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
I would suggest that the description of christianity in your comment runs contrary to the experience that a great many of us have had in our interactions with the followers of that religion.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Unfortunately, you are correct. Many Christians these days do not uphold the values that Christ himself handed to us from his life. I am perfectly fine with admitting that I have overstepped the guidelines of Christianity many times as no one is without sin. The continually secularizing society of today, spearheaded by atheistic liberals, is misguiding many who call themselves Christian yet fail to live Christianity. I am sorry that your experiences are contrary to mine and I would suggest looking to the Roman catholic Church for guidance, whose hierarchy and doctrines provide many of the teachings and interpretations necessary to embrace Christianity, while these teachings and interpretations are hard to come by from the average American and Christian unfortunately.
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
...that not everyone is a christian, even here in the good old U.S. of A., and arguments that rely on the subjective acceptance of the validity of that religion are inherently flawed, and will only seem convincing to those who already agree with their irrational premise. I would also suggest that our society was "secularized" the moment the Founding Fathers took pen to paper and ratified our Constitution and Bill of Rights. I am very familiar with the workings of a great many religions, and it was only after many years of soul-searching that realized that the whole business was a bucket of hogwash, including my now long-since-abandoned belief in souls. I would suggest that a clever "atheist liberal" could effectively argue that religion is not the beneficent source of societal bliss that some would have us believe. Perhaps in another blog...? I would also suggest in closing that to those who are not likewise inclined to believe in the threat of eternal punishment, the "rules" of your religion don't really mean a whole heck of a lot if you and your fellow pew-sitters are unable...dare I say it?...practice what you preach.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Like Blackout, I would suggest your description of Christianity in this particular comment runs contrary to what you are discussing in other comments in this very blog. You're not doing very well with treating others as if they were Christ himself by calling Fallon misguided and satanic simply because she is a pagan, nor are you treating others this way by encouraging such discrimination against transgendered individuals.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
So you are telling me that Christianity, a religion of treating your neighbor as you would wish to be treated and a religion where we are asked to treat every other person as if they were Christ himself is not a good thing?...
Thank you again for so clearly demonstrating why it is I think Christianity is NOT a good thing.
Look what you say here. Yet you are the very same person who reads an account of a person suffering the pains of discrimination because SHE doesn't like the gender that randomly assorting chromosomes happened to chose for her ... and say:
Your Christianity probably prevents you from seeing the hypocrisy here. So let me tell it to you straight up ... People who have serious problems want others to take them seriously!!!
... Are you saying that the Christian organizations especially the Roman Catholic church, organizations which care for the sick, the disabled, and the poor more than all other organizations on earth combined is a bad organization?
I do not agree with your assertion that Christian organizations do as you claim. Most health care and charitable organizations I see comes from secular sources; private health care and pharmaceutical companies and government-funded charities.. Furthermore there are religious activities that are doing a disservice to health care ... for example, the Roman Catholic Church's opposition to condom distribution and its effect on HIV transmission in Africa. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that what you say is true ... Christian organizations do a good job of taking care of the sick, disabled, and the poor. Does that make them a good organization?
It would with regard to that aspect only. However, their promotion of irrational beliefs that lead to bigotry (like you have demonstrated), intrusion of their dogma into governmental regulations (as proposed by creationist, pro-life, and right-wing evangelical organizations) does more than enough to out weigh that.
So YES!! I am saying they are a bad thing.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
...but I think that I will respectfully disagree with you as to who, exactly those folks are.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
So, you're perfectly ok with worshiping a god that will condemn humans to hell for trying to achieve the best in their lives? I'm not sure which is worse... your opinion of other religions (and yes, they are religions, despite what you want to claim)--your desire to condemn those who seek the truth through paths other than your own--or your insistence that people making themselves happy without harming anyone else is immoral and should be stopped.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
Claim #1 - I do not know how or if God condemns humans to hell but based on the words of the Scripture and what the Lords has chosen to reveal to us through divine revelation, I can tell you that the Lord wishes for us to dedicate our lives to his service just as he chose to give us life and to hold us as his children on earth. I do not believe that Nikki's actions "were to achieve the best in her life." If Nikki had chose to make a sacrifice in his social standing by doing the works of the Lord rather than to worry about his genitalia, I am sure that he would have achieved the mercy and salvation of the Lord for being so brave in the face of evil. I once again fail to see how Nikki's actions were to "achieve" the best in her life. Was his God-given and nature-given gender preventing him for doing good works ?(I'm sure you have nothing against people doing good works).
Claim #2 - I don't believe that I have "condemned" anyone; I have only disagreed with the actions of Nikki and the responses of Fallon for being misguided in my opinion. I do believe that Roman Catholicism is the true religion but I would think that the Lord looks kindly on all good human beings and acts accordingly with his mercy. Therefore I have no claim against other religions that are seeking the truth through a supernatural being; however, I do not believe paganism or atheism to be religions because there beliefs are not based in the supernatural but are based in what is presented on earth, and clearly God has not chosen to reveal everything on earth or else we would as humans be all knowing. The "truth" does not exist in materialism.
Claim #3 - I stand firm of my response before to your third claim and I believe that you are misrepresenting my writing.
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
I have a question and I ask it nicely althought it may 'sound' a little accusatory:
What makes you think that "paganism or atheism ... are not based in the supernatural " and how are they even remotely on the same level?
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
You raise a good point. I was making my statements off of the stereotype that I have received of atheists and of pagans. From my stereotypical knowledge, pagans worship various earthly things while atheists do not believe in a supernatural being. Now obviously, if in our conversations and arguments the "atheists" and "pagans" (Fallon) partake in different religious beliefs or rituals I would have to adjust my statement.
Government has no other end, but the preservation of property. - John Locke
Fallon has more than once referred to her belief in at least one goddess, which would certainly imply a belief in the supernatural. Since she's on several committees for Pagans, I would suggest that that belief of hers isn't entirely uncommon....
Also, believing that spirits inhabit earthly objects (as in numerous native american religions) also implies a belief in the supernatural....
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
The thing about stereotypes is that the grain of truth they often contain is so obscured in layers of untruth that the grain is all but lost beneath those layers. Perhaps it would be wiser to read up on what Pagans truly believe than to bandy about assumptions based on those stereotypes. If you would like to do so, I would be more than happy to point you in the right direction.
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
I now remember why I've taken to avoiding ProgressiveU lately. The continual efforts of others to force their moral ideals on others is not only ridiculous, it's exactly what is wrong with the world in general. Everyone believes their way is the only right way and the only thing they really serve to do with such an attitude is remind people exactly why people are so fed up with these claims of moral superiority that the religious imply with every word and every deed.
Believe it or not, no single religion has a monopoly on morality. Concern yourself with yours and let me deal with mine. It has served me incredibly well thus far, despite your belief that I'm misguided, and I have no doubts that my life will continue to be blessed and that I will continue to share those blessings with others without the misguided air of superiority that others seem to believe leading a good life and being a good person entitles them too.
My religious choices and moral and ethical beliefs are mine to make. Not yours and not anyone else's. I do not condemn your choices as being misguided, nor your inability to stop judging others and act as the good Christians I know do. Perhaps you can afford others the same respect and actually view other ideas as an opportunity to converse instead of an opportunity to condemn and preach? When you're able to master that ability, I imagine you'll find those on ProgressiveU that "wish to destroy the morals of the world" aren't any more evil than are you.
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
I like you, Fallon. :-)
"What a crazy random happenstance!"
Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
Read my Blog!
I kinda like you too, sawa :D
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
I am so glad with all the irritance we have all seen here you still have love for us Christians who are not the God police....
On a side note I thought I would share this comic thing that I have been following ever since sawaboof meantioned it and linked to it once upon a time. Its on a similar subject and I thought I would share:
comic thing
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
I do, indeed. You guys are awesome and make dealing with the less tolerant a little more bearable. And as a result, make me (and numerous others) appreciate the reality that no matter how irritated I might get at those less tolerant others for trying to shove their things down my throat (and I don't mean that in the sexual sense.. mind over gutters) ... there is every reason in the world to keep building bridges. There are more people like you and my husband and BurningExample in the world than there are people on that other side and that's infinitely more inspiring than any amount of God policing will ever be.
And I fixed your link because it wasn't working. Thanks for sharing :)
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
Thanks for fixing the link. I had been having trouble getting my computer behave and had not noticed that it was messed up.
_o.o_
Love is like a box of chocolates; if you chose wisely you won’t be disappointed and have to spit it out. ~T
What a crazy random happenstance that today's QC strip applies to this thread of comments!
"What a crazy random happenstance!"
Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
Read my Blog!
I extra specially love that it addressed the importance of CITING ONE'S SOURCES! Nice addition to the thread, Whispers!
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
while I was not on prou...sorry for abandoning ship then but I am back and I hate not seeing you and fanaile essence here :(
"A person doesn't die when he should but when he can."
- Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
"close your eyes, clear your heart..." Allama Iqbal...An Ode to the Cup Bearer<
I'm not going anywhere permanently and do peek in (as is obvious) every so often, I promise. It's just been a long year and I've become more irritable that helpful lately... so I've just been taking a short vacation whilst I rediscover the virtue of patience and diplomacy and remember why I came to ProgressiveU in the first place. My attempt to rediscover my appreciation for the things here that currently drive me insane, as it were. :)
I am absolutely thrilled to see you back, though. I really missed you while you were away. You have a very refreshing point of view and were always one of those people that we could rely on to give us originality, creativity and the ability to come away having learned something new. I can't wait to see what else you have in store for us!
Just, you know, don't run off on us again. We'll have to haunt you next time :D
-----
~Fallon~
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.- Russell
-----
I need some love and care :)
"A person doesn't die when he should but when he can."
- Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
"close your eyes, clear your heart..." Allama Iqbal...An Ode to the Cup Bearer<
that is the best and only thing I want to say...
I am glad and proud to say that one of the people who I look upto or admire and am inspired by is Rachel Maddow and I did not know or care about the fact that she is a lesbian but I love her views and her regardless :),
I found out that she was one when I saw her on the cover of The Advocate and bought the mag because I wanted to know more about her.
"A person doesn't die when he should but when he can."
- Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude
"close your eyes, clear your heart..." Akhri Alvida--Last Goodbye<