Today is Day 20 in the 40 Days for Life campaign. We’re half way there! I have another blog post on the 40 Days for Life, if you’re interested in learning more about it:
http://progressiveu.org/node/48855
Also, there’s always the website (40daysforlife.com).
So…halfway there. I can’t believe we’re at the half way point already! The past three weeks have been difficult, but grace-filled. It’s so beautiful and encouraging knowing that by prayer and sacrifice, I’m already making a difference in something I want to dedicate the rest of my life to.
The pro-life movement is so fulfilling. In all honesty, I cannot fathom how anyone can be pro-“choice”(death). How can you take ANY excuse and deem the deliberate murder of innocent human life ok? How can anyone “choose” to allow another person to die and it be ok? How can the government take our hard-earned tax dollars and give it to people to destroy the future of our country? How can we get so caught up and so outraged by the bailout plan, global warming, or the “persecution” of the gays, when we are being silent on the ultimate issue: life?!
Without life, we have nothing else. We have no purpose for money, we have no purpose for the earth, we have no purpose for agendas. Life is the beginning of everything in our lives. By destroying life, we’re eventually going to destroy everything that comes after the beginning of life.
Even if you believe that a woman should have the “right to choose,” you cannot deny that everything in your life came after you were conceived (or born…take your pick). Your first steps, your first crush, your first heartbreak, your first day of school, your first day of college, the first day you met your spouse, the first day you tasted the best ice cream in the world, the first day you went to an amusement park, the first day you became truly outraged over a moral, ethical, or political dilemma. Everything came after the day you were conceived (born). Nothing matters more than life.
Let us help to preserve life. To learn how you can participate in the 40 Days for Life and defend the most important issue facing us today, please check out the website (40daysforlife.com) or my note previously linked.
RESPECT LIFE
Half way there! (40 Days for Life)
By respectlife - Posted on October 13th, 2008
In all honesty, I cannot fathom how anyone can be pro-“choice”(death).
I can't imagine why anyone cares what strangers do with their reproductive organs. Why is it any of your business what I do with my uterus?
How can you take ANY excuse and deem the deliberate murder of innocent human life ok?
Nobody has the right to use my body against my will. It's as simple as that.
If a man tries to rape me and I shoot him dead, that's not murder. Likewise, evicting an unwanted fetus from my body is also not murder; it's self-defense.
How can anyone “choose” to allow another person to die and it be ok?
Self-defense, of course.
How can the government take our hard-earned tax dollars and give it to people to destroy the future of our country?
There are four births in this country for every one abortion. Abortion isn't destroying anything. Legal, safe abortion allows mothers to end pregnancies safely and continue to care for the children they have, greatly improving the future of our country.
How can we get so caught up and so outraged by the bailout plan, global warming, or the “persecution” of the gays, when we are being silent on the ultimate issue: life?! Without life, we have nothing else. We have no purpose for money, we have no purpose for the earth, we have no purpose for agendas.
Maybe in magic anti-choice fairy land.
But in the real world, if people don't have jobs, they can't afford to choose life. And there's clearly no point in having babies if you don't have a healthy environment for them to live in. Obviously the economy and the environment are FAR more important than the abortion issue.
Even if you believe that a woman should have the “right to choose,” you cannot deny that everything in your life came after you were conceived (or born…take your pick).
So what? I love my life, but I don't think my mom should have been forced to have me whether she wanted me or not. I love my mom, and I would never want to hurt her like that. She deserves a choice. We all deserve a choice. I'm comfortable knowing that my birth was a choice and that my mom wanted me.
I don't care what you do with your uterus...I care about what you're doing with the human being inside of you.
If someone is being raped, then someone is committing an action that justifies you doing whatever necessary in self defense. However, the child in your womb is not doing anything to harm you. Also, rape cases take up a small percentage of abortions, so think about the other cases.
Abortion is destroying life. I'd say that's something.
Then don't get in a situation where you get pregnant. If you're married and don't want kids, talk to a local priest about NFP.
Whether or not she wanted you is actually irrelevant. She made the act that brought you into this world, however, GOD created you. HE loves you. You belong to HIM. Therefore, it was not your mother's choice. It was God. He had plans for you even before he conceived you. Similarly, He has plans for everyone He creates. Therefore, through abortion, we are playing God and messing with His plans.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
You do realize that pregnancy has the potential to put any woman's life at risk, right? Between preeclampsia, eclampsia, gestastional diabetes, and the dozens of other conditions that affect pregnant women, not to mention the birth itself, it is a life-threatening condition. This isn't a concern for most people in the US, because they can generally afford the prenatal care that will enable them to live through it. But the risk is still there.
~C
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A doctor can morally do whatever he needs to do to help a woman and keep her alive, even if the sad result happens to be a miscarriage. In that case, the death of the child is not the purpose of the treatment (saving the woman's life is), it is an effect. However, the purpose of abortion is death of a child. Therefore, abortion is always wrong.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
If the sad result of saving a woman's life is a miscarriage, it is still called an abortion.
The purpose of an abortion is to terminate a pregnancy, not to kill a child. A miscarriage is your own body terminating a pregnancy, that's why it is called a spontaneous abortion.
"What a crazy random happenstance!"
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But there is a difference in purpose. Abortion always kills a child (or terminates a pregnancy...either term works, but the result is the same...a child dies). However, when performing medical treatments on a woman, the death of the child is not the purpose and is not always the result.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
i just recently had an abortion. yes to others it might seem unholy and to others it may seem like murder. Well tell me if you were raped like i was would you want to carry a child that wasn't brought into this world out of love or even out of consent. I couldn't look at my child or even take care of my child knowing how he or she was brought into this world. I know everyone has their own oppions and belifes but it's my body and i'll do what i want despite what others think BeautifulFlower
***Removed Multiple Duplicate Comments, Blackout - 10/14/2008.***
I'm sorry to hear that you were raped and that you had an abortion. However, I don't believe that even that is an excuse to destroy innocent human life. Your baby did nothing to you, even if his or her father did something very cruel to you. Also, adoption is a good option if you could not raise the child. You'll be in my prayers. ;)
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
Have you ever experienced being raped? Have you ever experienced being pregneat? Or have you experienced both? BeautifulFlower
No, I have experienced neither. But should I ever be raped and become pregnant out of rape, I would know that it was not my baby's fault and my baby should not be punished for someone else's actions. If I could not live with my baby because it would cause me too much pain, I would give him or her up for adoption. Also, I would know that killing my baby would not undo the wounds the man inflicted on me. I know it might be easier said than done now, but this is something I've thought about often before, so I'm not just throwing something out there.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
Personally, I don't think "murder" and "termination of pregnancy" are interchangeable terms. You made a decision that was best for you, and you should not have to feel ashamed about that, or make excuses for it. I hope you are doing well, both physically and mentally.
"What a crazy random happenstance!"
Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog
Read my Blog!
Let's see what "the bible" has to say about abortion...
The moden christian's "pro-life" position strikes me as being based more on politics, than it is on religion. And so on a theological level, I'm curious as to how any christian can honestly defend the position that all abortions are automatically "bad." Are you aware that the bible actually contains numerous examples of abortions performed at the command of the "god" of Abraham? Numbers 5:11-21 contains a description of a chemical abortion used to determine if a woman was pregnant out-of-wedlock, and in Hosea 13:15-16 "the lord" that the women of Smaraia who are with child will be "ripped up" in accordance to "his" will. Numbers 31:17 and 2 Kings 15:16 contain similar passages commanding the death of pregnant women and their unborn children.
Passages like this lead be to believe that the modern christian's opposition to a woman's right to choose is more political than it is religious.
TTFN,
Blackout
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The Bible also states: "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you." ~Jeremiah 1:5
"When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." ~ Exodus 21:22
"Thus says the Lord: For three transgressions of the Ammonites, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment; because they have ripped up women with child in Gilead." ~ Amos 1:13
"Yet thou art he who took me from the womb; thous didst keep me safe upon my mother's breasts." ~ Psalm 22: 9
"The fruit of the womb [is] a reward" ~ Psalm 127: 3
"Thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb" ~ Psalm 139: 13
"Did not he who made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb?" ~ Job 31:15
"Thus says the Lord who made you, who formed you from the womb and will help you." ~ Isaiah 44:2
"For he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb." ~ Luke 1:15
"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace..." ~ Galatians 1:15
So there are a few of the many important verses in the Bible that discuss the sanctity of life and how God has made plans for us even before we were born.
Also, the verses in Numbers 5 discuss what should happen as a result of sin. The verse from Hosea is of God punishing the Samarians, thus indicating that abortion is a BAD thing. Number 31 discuss killing women and children, again, as a punishment. So is Kings 2 (4) Ch. 15. Therefore, abortion is an evil.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
So there are a few of the many important verses in the Bible that discuss the sanctity of life and how God has made plans for us even before we were born.
Which of course just goes to show that "the bible" is incredibly inconsistent in the postions it presents. Let's take a look at these verses, in context, and see if your counter-point is well informed...
Also, the verses in Numbers 5 discuss what should happen as a result of sin.
The text says that the "bitter water" causes the womans "belly to swell" and her "thigh to rot"...but only if she has had sex with someone while her husbad was away. That sounds to me like a primitive explanation a way to detect pregnancy with a chemically induced abortion.
The verse from Hosea is of God punishing the Samarians, thus indicating that abortion is a BAD thing.
So, are you saying that its okay to cause the abortions of children that belong to people who don't follow your religion, or that its okay if it is a supernatural abortion? Either way, your argument seems a little silly...
Number 31 discuss killing women and children, again, as a punishment.
Here again, you seem to be arguing that it is okay to cause abortions if the women have angered your "lord." In these verses, Moses is commanding "god's" followers to "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him." That would hardly seem to support your assertion that your religion has any particular respect for "life" either in or out of the womb.
So is Kings 2 (4) Ch. 15.
On this last one, I could almost give you a "pass" since the text doesn't actually say whether or not "god" approved of these murders. But, based on the many other passages in which "the LORD" specifically commanded his followers (according to the stories, anyway) to do this kind of thing, it seems unlikely that "he" would diapprove in just this one case.
If you were to discuss the issue of abortions based on something more objective, you might get a bit farther in advancing your ideas. But relying on the christian religion for your arguments is not really a good idea in this case. There is just too much evidence that countradicts your positions easily found within "the bible."
TTFN,
Blackout
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Yes, I have read the Bible, actually.
And no, the Bible does not give conflicting positions. It states that life is a precious thing and that the destruction of life is a result of sin (which can easily be recognized in today's times...some women have abortions because of rape. Raping someone is a sin. Other women have abortions because they had sex outside of marriage. To the Jews and Christians, who revere the Bible, sex outside of marriage is a sin.)
Numbers 5: Yes, therefore, if a woman sinned, abortion would be a punishment. Therefore, abortion is a result of sin, just as I said.
Hosea 9: No, I'm saying that abortion is the result of sin.
Numbers 31: Again, abortion occurs as a result of sin.
Actually, you're the one who brought the Bible up, so you started up with the Christian point of view and I just followed up on it.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
It states that life is a precious thing and that the destruction of life is a result of sin
Ahem...
Oh, and here is my absolute favorite...
Now, are you SURE you're really read the bible? Because, right now it doesn't seem like you have.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Yet again, the destruction of life for the Amalekites is because they persecuted the Israelites. (1 Samuel 14:48)
Oh, thanks for bringing this one up! This is an awesome example of death being a result of sin! The Egyptians were persecuting the Israelites (Children of God), and Moses kept giving him warning after warning that he must let his people go or great destruction would come upon the land. After nine other plagues, the Angel of Death came and wiped out the first born of all the children and animals. So not only does it show that death is a result of sin, but it also shows that God gives multiple opportunities to repent. So not only does that passage show that God is a God of justice...it also shows that He is a God of mercy.
This is along the lines of the Christian philosophy that you must obey God's rules or you will suffer an eternal death. God gives people plenty of opportunities to repent throughout their life and He waits until our deaths to judge us (thus waiting til the last possible moment).
RESPECT LIFE
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
...the exact line of reasoning that would keep me from ever being a christian even IF I weren't an atheist. The idea that it is okay to kill people if they don't conform with what you think your "god" wants them to do is just flabbergasting...seriously.
TTFN,
Blackout
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1) That response is off topic, so you must not have anything else to say on the abortion matter which means that I was right which indicates that I have studied my Bible which means you were wrong about both the Bible and me.
2) It's not a line of reasoning...it's history. The Christian philosophy is what Christians go by...we obey God or we could suffer eternal fire.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
...especially when that hypocrisy is so blatantly obvious. I see no rational way to reconcile a belief in "the sanctity of life," in one breath, and to then turn around in the next by defending the killing of people because they are acting the way you think your "god" wants them to. This kind of double-think is truly Orwellian. Sheesh...
TTFN,
Blackout
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(1) That's history and so I'm just stating it.
(2) Those people did evil things. The Egyptians, for example, enslaved the Israelites. Slavery is looked upon as an evil to this day by all people. Their death was a result of their evil.
(3) People such as the Egyptians were punished. Their punishment was death. Abortion is normally a way of escaping reality and the child dies at no fault of his or her own. Therefore, death in that case is not a punishment. Therefore, it is in no way justifiable.
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
"It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
~Mother Teresa
History states facts, at least insofar as the historical record can support them. When ancient texts make reference to supernatural boogems and similar fancies, the appropriate term is mythology, not history.
The Egyptians, for example, enslaved the Israelites.
Really? Can you point to a non-biblical historical source that would confirm this belief? Can you point to any scientifically credible archeological digs or similar evidence that would support this?
Slavery is looked upon as an evil to this day by all people. Their death was a result of their evil.
You're almost right. MOST people today do see slavery as "evil." But the bible? Not so much...
People such as the Egyptians were punished. Their punishment was death. Abortion is normally a way of escaping reality and the child dies at no fault of his or her own.
Yep...that sounds like hypocrisy to me. Its okay to kill people, as long as you can justify their murder by claiming that they're acting the way that your "god" doesn't want them to, but you "respect life." Really, this conversation would be funny, if it wasn't so disturbing.
TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Different books of the Bible are historical documents that parallel to all other historical documents and findings.
OK, how bout this? Let's say that the Bible is a fairy tale (because I'd rather explain it like this than waste a ton of time on evidence you're going to claim is biased or illogical anyway). In this fairy tale, the big bad Egyptians enslaved the Israelites and got punished. The moral of the story? If you do something bad, you'll be punished in some way, shape, or form.
You seem to like taking things out of context...in this particular passage, the people are being told not to take the children of God into slavery. At that time, only the Israelites were considered the children of God. Through Christ, all are considered children of God. Therefore, after the coming of Christ (ie, the past 2000 years), slavery is a sin.
Well, I do believe there are times when killing people is ok. A justifiable war or in self defense when there is no other option are two main examples. In the time of the Egyptians, they were enslaving and killing the Israelites. The Israelites, out of self-defense, wanted to get out of all the persecution. The God of the Israelites tried many things before resorting to killing. Therefore, the death of the Egyptians was self defense after all other options had been tried. Therefore, the death of the Egyptians is justifiable.
Another point...God is the giver of life. HE is the one who can choose when to give and take life. Therefore, if He kills (or instructs the killing) of a person or people, then as Supreme Being, He can do so. However, when we kill innocent human life, we are playing the part of God and that's not something we can morally do, because, just as we cannot give life we also cannot destroy it.
Oh, I totally agree. I think it's quite amusing that you keep changing the subject and grasping at straws so that you don't have to admit you're wrong. : )
RESPECT LIFE
http://progressiveu.org/blog/respectlife
"It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
~Mother Teresa
...and so I will reply to you, below.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Different books of the Bible are historical documents that parallel to all other historical documents and findings.
There are occasional facts that align with the broader historical record, but there area many more which contradict what we know from independant sources. We could go book by book and discuss the obvious historical errors (and fabrications) which quite literally fill the bible, but a look at one book should be sufficient to make the point. I hope D.B. won't mind if I reference his blog, but here is an excellent series that does just that...
http://www.progressiveu.org/144926-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-is-a-for...
http://www.progressiveu.org/115341-daniel-is-a-forgery-chapter-1-daniel-...
http://www.progressiveu.org/131001-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-and-nebu...
http://www.progressiveu.org/114050-skeptical-bible-study-shadrach-mescha...
http://www.progressiveu.org/083011-skeptical-bible-study-chapter-4-danie...
http://www.progressiveu.org/155209-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chapter-...
http://www.progressiveu.org/170336-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chapter-...
http://www.progressiveu.org/132214-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chapter-...
http://www.progressiveu.org/150906-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chapter-...
http://www.progressiveu.org/103755-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chap-9-t...
http://www.progressiveu.org/230114-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chaps-10...
http://www.progressiveu.org/223119-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-is-a-for...
OK, how bout this? Let's say that the Bible is a fairy tale (because I'd rather explain it like this than waste a ton of time on evidence you're going to claim is biased or illogical anyway). In this fairy tale, the big bad Egyptians enslaved the Israelites and got punished. The moral of the story? If you do something bad, you'll be punished in some way, shape, or form.
That would be an interesting argument, IF it weren't based on a false premise. I have studied christian theology quite thoroughly (having been raised in a strictly religious family), and all of the major christian sects present this story as if it were a literal event, and praise the character of "god" for the deaths of the firstborn Egytians. Even so, your evasion wound't change anything, unless you were willing to admit that the events of the story described an immoral act. No matter how you try to dance away from the details, you are STILL saying that it is "okay" to kill your enemies if they don't act the way you think your "god" wants them too. Wether you see this tale literally or metaphorically, its still a disgusting belief.
You seem to like taking things out of context...in this particular passage, the people are being told not to take the children of God into slavery. At that time, only the Israelites were considered the children of God. Through Christ, all are considered children of God. Therefore, (ie, the past 2000 years), slavery is a sin.
*rolls eyes* Honestly, I don't see the moral difference is saying that you can't enslave an Israelite, but its okay to enslave the neighbors of the Israelites. But your comment about "after the coming of Christ" is horsepuckey, since (according to the bible), since the New Testament--which of course was all written all written "after the coming of Christ"--says...
Heck, the book of Luke even attibutes Jesus with speaking directly on the subject on slavery...
And before you try to dodge the white-washed term "servant" by suggesting that it doesn't apply to "slaves," I checked Strong's Condordance and confirmed that the original Greek term doulos does in fact translate as "slave."
Now, if what you suggested about christian theology "after the coming of Christ" was true, I hardly think that the NT would have such specific instructions regarding the practice, and would certainly think that the Jesus character would at least say something negative about it, rather than telling us how to properly beat one's slaves.
Well, I do believe there are times when killing people is ok. A justifiable war or in self defense when there is no other option are two main examples. In the time of the Egyptians, they were enslaving and killing the Israelites. The Israelites, out of self-defense, wanted to get out of all the persecution. The God of the Israelites tried many things before resorting to killing. Therefore, the death of the Egyptians was self defense after all other options had been tried. Therefore, the death of the Egyptians is justifiable.
I have one main question in regards to this counter-point. How do you claim "self-defense" from the infant children of your enemies? If the story said, "'god' smote the Egyptian slavers, soldiers and leaders," then you might have a case. But the first-born children? There is a commonly used word in the American vernacular for people who direct violence at innocent children in order to "punish" their parents...we call them terrorists.
Another point...God is the giver of life. HE is the one who can choose when to give and take life. Therefore, if He kills (or instructs the killing) of a person or people, then as Supreme Being, He can do so.
This is a moral evasion. Or rather, the suggestion that someone has a right to do something to someone else just because someone is powerful enough to do it is completely AMORAL. Again, thanks for reminind me why I could never be a christian, even if I weren't an atheist.
However, when we kill innocent human life, we are playing the part of God and that's not something we can morally do, because, just as we cannot give life we also cannot destroy it.
Actually, we can prove with some certainty that mother of an unborn child had a direct hand in creating the potential life within her. You cannot, however, provide any evidence at all that your "god" even exists, much less that "he" created anything. A CONSISTENT application of your reasoning would give the mother permission to do whatever she wants to her fetus, since she created it and is too powerful for the fetus to resist her.
Oh, I totally agree. I think it's quite amusing that you keep changing the subject and grasping at straws so that you don't have to admit you're wrong. : )
The only one dodging anything here, is you. I have answered each of your charges and counter-points directly, and with accurate citations. You on the other hand have not responded in kind. We are still waiting (for example) for you to provide us with an actual, non-biblical source or actual archeological evidence that verifies the "history" of the Israelite's alleged captivity in Egypt.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.