It is my personal belief that religion serves more to separate humans from God than it serves to close the gap between humans and God.
Please note that when I use the word "God" I use it in the broadest sense possible. I have my own understanding, but it is my personal belief that this understanding is personal and individual, and I believe it is the same for everyone, even those who profess atheism, because even atheists have a concept of God that they reject.
For the sake of argument, I will simply say that the word God here in this blog can be replaced with any number of words or ideas, such as Life Force, Goddess, Nature, Energy, the Tao, Enlightenment, Nirvana, Love, the Universe, Infinity, Eternity, etc.
God is anything that connects any person to their outside world.
Religion, on the other hand is a prescribed belief system, that includes stories, laws, rules, and rituals. Religion promises people that by following these laws, rules and rituals, and by accepting the prescribed belief system, one will find God.
The thing is, I don't believe that God is that small. I don't think that God limits itself to living in churches. I don't think that the religious texts that exist can even come close to telling the whole story of God.
Religion is limiting, it puts God in a box. It makes people narrow minded, and it kills individual thought. It doesn't allow for questioning or searching. It requires absolute blind faith.
Most of the world's religions, with the exception of Mormonism, are ancient. They were written a long time ago, in many different languages, for many different peoples. I would argue that religion best serves us today as history. Each religion is a history of a particular people, battling their battles and searching for meaning in their lifetime.
I would also argue that there a lot of people, and I personally have known many, who are strictly devoted followers of a religion, yet have no relationship with God whatsoever. They just blindly follow what they have been told their whole life, and in reality, they have ceased to really connect with anyone outside of themselves. Just one example here would be someone who claims to be a Christian, but also hates Jews and black people. Well, really, anyone who claims to be a Christian but carries any hatred at all is a sufficient example.
Religion has always been concerned with controlling people, specifically by controlling their beliefs. I don't think that God is concerned with controlling humans. In fact I don't think that God really cares much about whether or not anyone believes in him/her/it, because God doesn't need humans to prove anything to God. Rather, God serves to inspire humans to reach outside of themselves, to find connections with others, with nature, with the planet, and sometimes directly with God.
Interesting theory, and I agree, but only in part. I think there is a certain place for the rituals and laws that religion prescribes for those who choose to follow it, but that these aren't necessarily designed to help you find God. Rather, most cases, they're meant to show your appreciation to something you've already come to find.
I've heard on more than one occasion that some people attending certain religious ceremonies are moved to tears due to the sheer beauty of the ceremony. And none of those were referring to a marriage or a funeral.
Religion can also help people cope in some ways. By following certain rituals surrounding someone's death, it makes it easier to mourn and move on. While not all people need this sort of comfort, others do, and that's where religion comes in.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
I agree with you. Religion does serve an important social role. It strives to encourage people to follow basic moral behavior, like not murdering people.
It provides people who wouldn't have support otherwise with a network of people who would generally provide support.
Churches do take up social causes in the world, and do help on a global level, sometimes.
It offers safe haven for people who have nowhere else to turn.
For some, it is their core community, and it keeps them connected with others.
It's not all bad, it just isn't all good either.
Just like people.
I guess that's my point, I think that church and religion are more about people than they are about God. And they serve people before they serve God.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Please use the reply link at the bottom of the comment to reply to it. Thanks.
Again, I partially agree with you. Allow me to give a more specific example. In Judaism, when an immediate family member (father, mother, daughter, son, wife/husband) dies, you are required to say a very specific prayer every day for like... 11 months, I think. Then you are required to say it every year on that person's death anniversary. But, the prayer makes absolutely no reference to the deceased or the mourners. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." and continues in much that vein. Basically, the prayer is meant to reaffirm your belief in G-d despite the bad thing that happened.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
I'm still trying to get what you mean. Yes, prayers and rituals help people to cope, and they help people to feel connected to one another. They can be beautiful. I have been to several different kinds of churches and participated in prayers and rituals of different faiths. I am usually moved, and I do usually feel uplifted.
I just don't see how your reply is a disagreement.
What I am really talking about is not a criticism of the value of such things. It is more about the tendency of churches, "religion" specifically as an action, rather than a noun, and individuals who are faithful followers of these, to want to claim exclusive access to God. It is this quality of some religions that I object to, and which I think serves to ultimately distance people from God.
To clarify even further, not all religions do this, for example Buddhism, and Taoism. Which is probably why I am most inspired by them.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
You made the claim that 'religion' is good in the social sense, in that it helps people come together, etc. But that it brings them further away from god in that sense. I was arguing that some of the rituals and traditions of specific religions do the opposite. They aren't intended to help people come together socially, they're intended to bring people closer to god, even in face of adversity.
If I'm understanding you correctly now, you're against the Christian (and Muslim) concept that you have to be a believer of their faith in order to have that relationship with god. If that's really what you're saying, then I agree with you. There are many paths to seeking this relationship, and not all of them fit everyone.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
I'm sorry, but this is very weird.
I must stop (and start) here and thank you, mvenus929.
I cued in to your meaning at the end of your last reply (which is posted after this reply).
I was impressed with the fact that you referenced God as "G-d".
I am familiar with the Torah because I was raised as a Christian.
The Torah (the Core text of Judaism) is also recognized by Christians as the "Pentateuch". That is, it is the first 5 books of the Christian "Bible" that provide the premise for human creation and existence.
After reading this post by mvenous929, I accidentally hit on a personal epiphany.
By mvenous929 signing off in support G-d, she triggered a deep rooted memory.
I remember that in the Old Testament, it is explained that one cannot utter the Name of God because it is too Holy and powerful.
Similarly, one (just like Moses and the Burning Bush) cannot look openly upon God, because the brightness is blinding and annihilating.
Humans are not meant or designed to have the capacity to know God. We are meant and designed to embody a physical incarnation of an aspect of our origin.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Wow, as I read this I began to immediately disagree. However, there were some intresting points in this article. Like how you said God doesn't limit himself in churches only. I totally agree to that part.
But, as far as religion being a perscribed system of rituals, laws, and rules I firmly disagree. Rituals are not necessary, they only exsist to create a special atmosphere to one's worship. Yes, religions do include laws and rules. Everything includes laws and rules. Schools, offices, libraries, restaraunts, and even homes!
No matter what one's faith is, religion is a special devotion from the heart that majestically creates a strong connection from human to God. (Using the term God in the same context as in the passage.) Religion draws one near their Savior. Religion is nothing more than a ladder that one constantly climbs to reach their God. Basically a connection piece. So therefore, religion doesn't drive one away God, it connects one to God.
"Sometimes your greatest hindrance can be the very eyes your looking through" -S.Chinn
I noticed you gave God a gender when you said "Like how you said God doesn't limit himself in churches only."
Just wanted to point out how you limit God there. I personally believe that God is probably omnisexual.
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
Like ourselves :-)
...is that we can interpret them in differen ways. Superman, Supergirl, Batman, Batwoman, Hulk, She-Hulk, God, Goddess...etc.
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
but I haven't seen anyone else come up with an "omnisexual" one before :)
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
I kind of agree with her original posting due to the state of affairs of the country. If your religion is not true there will be failure as the USA. Failure is not just about money, although it is failing there too, it is also about social values, behavior, and morals. We can talk about Muslims’ but, they don’t have the social problems we have, the bad behavior of kids, kids having babies, getting robbed, the shooting. All of this is due to this country major belief. It was sweet up front, but in the end it has turned bitter. Guess who is mostly responsible . . . the preacher man. See RACISM DOESN'T EXIST! http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/52843-racism It covers the cause of the issue you have posted well.
Let love be you mentor!
Well I actually for the most part agree...ok I totally agree. I watched this one whacked out woman on trading spouse the other night and she went psycho because there was a woman she traded families with who believed in god but was not a christian. I could not help, but to laugh because she seriously went nuts saying that the holy spirit was driven out of her and everything.
I have always found religion to be a way to make a person conform. This is just my opinion and belief. And I am some what skeptical of the bible, but I believe in god. Another question I have often wondered is why must religions fight over who is right and who is wrong it just seems stupid to me. A person should respect someone's belief and keep it that way. I also hate when people push their religion on me saying "You need god in your life" or "You need to go to church." God is not going to help with my family issues, he can not fix them, it is up to me to deal with it the best I can.
As sad as it is I have seen many corrupt churches, some of the people are more screwed up than people who don't go to church. My mom's best friend used to be a minister and had to get out of it because he just couldn't handle it. I am not saying all churches are corrupt. Often I am hesitant to respond to religious type posts because people always attack everything I say.
But I am going to anyway. I am mostly neutral on just about every subject, I have opinions, but I try to stay neutral so I can see both perspectives. For example I can understand why people don't believe in God, and it is useless to try to persuade someone to believe it. I can also see why some people like their religions. Although I may not agree that does not mean that will ever stand in my way of agreeing on aspects of their believes and looking at a person differently. Good blog I liked it.
I wrote a blog a while back about this subject I think it is titled Being Narrow minded is a one way street. I do agree with the first comment you recieved religion has helped alot of people and moved them to tears. Religion itself though has never helped me.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am voting for Lewis Black.
DrifterDani~
that El Shaddai, one of the terms for G-d in the Hebrew Bible literally means "many breasted one!" I find this incredibly exciting!
http://www.goodnewsinc.net/v4gn/shaddai.html
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
Although the principals and practices of thought are in themselves age old, the realities that have been presented inside this blog "are" while based on the author’s (Turtlesuds) own personal experience.
I believe it’s her sincere wish that all you reading will faithfully take up the benefit of what you have read, into your daily life, while more important come to realize, the true happiness of the deeper awareness of your spiritual nature ;-)
It is really important in our quest for God, to understand where and how to find Him. In our daily lives we call upon God, we pray to Him and perform rituals in trying to reach Him. We go to the temple or church thinking that He is there. We go speak to him, imaging that He is listening to us. But is He really there? Sometimes we spend hours reading holy books, memorizing every verse with the hope that in doing so, we will reach the heart of God and feel Him.
But still our lives remain empty and joyless. We read and expound philosophy, yet we lack peace and love in our lives. We still lack the awareness of Him. So where is He really? Is He in the temple? Is He in the ritual or in the prayer? Is He in the philosophy or the holy book we memorize? Where is God? Where is this God that we pray to everyday?
First of all, any idea you have of God, is not God, it’s an idea! Isn’t it? If you imagine God and try to create in your mind a picture of Him, what are you doing? You are creating a concept of him. When you mold an image of God out of clay or marble, would you say that it is He, or is it a symbol of him? When you read book about God, what makes the book holy? Can you find Him in the Book? Can you take a magnifying glass and look at the print and find Him? The book speak about Him, but He is not the book.
This is a very important point. A label is not the object nor is a map the territory.
In our search for God we have to understand that the ideas we have of Him are not Him. The labels and symbols that we make of Him, are not Him. That is why we can pray and pray and read and read and still not feel Him. We have to learn to find Him beyond the ritual, beyond memorizing the book and beyond the images we hold in the mind.
These symbols are just devices that we have fashioned for ourselves, in order to communicate with Him. These engage the mind in activity. But God lies beyond the mind.
The Upanishads say that God cannot be known by the mind. He created the mind and so it is finite compared to Him. How then can the mind know Him in fullness? So in our search for God we have to go beyond the thinking mind. We have to take the mind on an inward journey to the very source from which it springs. When the mind becomes absolutely still we will experience the presence of God within and realize our own divinity.
Sorry to disappoint you all, but it is needed to trick you all for the better of all...
Kisses!
I wanted to share with you before, that dialoguing with my mother on facebook has been really interesting. I posted all of my religious studies blogs from here to there, and tagged her so she could read this and other ideas of mine. She is the one who told me about El Shaddai, which is such a monumental discovery for me because it was her own religious hypocrisy that drove me away from religion, and onto my own journey, that has brought me back to my Source, I believe, and now I am conversing with her openly, challenging everything she ever taught me, and it goes well, and she hasn't judged any of it negatively, yet....this is more healing than talking about our pasts, our pain, etc. I feel like this is the beginning of my being able to become a whole Woman, and to embrace my own physical self. Its interesting how these little things I wrote for a class serve a higher purpose, for me and others. Thank you so much for your support of me through this journey, and I am not just talking about this one comment you made. You've been a major part of this process for me, it was your encouragement all along that kept me going....
http://progressiveu.org/blog/52301-scrapbooking-never-ending-story#comme...
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
A tremendous amount of emotion is making its way towards both you and your mother, embrace it as much you can, it will make it more easy to deal with the deeper issues later on, I still need to read all which you have written, I await my right vibe in doing so, but I will soon!
xxx
I believe it is the same for everyone, even those who profess atheism, because even atheists have a concept of God that they reject.
The only "concept of god" that most atheists have are the ones that are presented to us by others who are trying to sell us their own brand of religious snake oil. Don't forget that atheism is a lack of belief. It does not require an image of an imaginary deity to occur. In fact, the evidence strongly suggests that every man, woman and child on the began their lives as a atheist and only developed a "concept of god" after they were taught that concept, or in rare cases invented it on their own after experiencing something that they lacked the skill to otherwise explain.
It is common for theists to project their own flawed thought processes onto atheists, because it makes it easier for them to discount the arguments of atheism if those arguments can be circled back around to a "religious" origin. It is a attempt to create an intellectual equivalency between theism and atheism which is neither accurate nor justified.
For the sake of argument, I will simply say that the word God here in this blog can be replaced with any number of words or ideas...
It doesn't really matter which particular word you choose. Based on the context of your further usage of the term "god" throughout your blog, you seem to be implying that the object has an independent existence from human beings and that it possesses at least some form of intelligence or awareness. These assumptions are, of course, completely unsupported by the extant evidence and are thus irrational. The irrational basis of the kind of generic belief in a "god" which you profess is exactly the same as the irrational basis of all the world's religions.
Your box may seem "bigger" and less dogmatic, but really it isn't. For example, you stated that religion's have "stories, laws, rules, and rituals." You are telling us a story about your religion in this very blog. You described to use the "laws" and "rules" of your religion and criticized other religions for not doing it the same way that you do. You even mentioned further down in your blog that you find the "ritual" of prayer to be uplifting.
The only REAL difference between your expressions of belief and the expressions of the major world's religions is the scope of your sect's membership. Your personal brand of religion might be less aggressive and more tolerant than most, but your expressions are still very much religious in nature.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I'm so glad you made your way over here, and thank you for your comment :) I am being completely sincere, because you see, I love you dearly, and you don't know it, but you have been a HUGE influence on me in this little journey of mine, and from you I have gleaned deeper insight into myself, and I have been able to sharpen my pen so that I can articulate things better, improving communication and whatnot. I have immense respect for you, and do not wish to change you or your beliefs in any way. In fact, I would prefer to know that you will always be an atheist, and have never prayed for your conversion because we need people like you to ground our civilization. We need to tear down the Lies that have been preached from the pulpits over the course of human history. They are Evil, and they are responsible for most of the pain in this world, so I share your mission, and my "religion," if you will, the one that i am writing with my Life, seeks to destroy hypocrisy. My "religion" doesn't require a belief in God.
You have said before, "Why god? Why not be good for goodness' sake?" Well, I will attempt to explain "Why god?" for myself.
You said:
"The only "concept of god" that most atheists have are the ones that are presented to us by others who are trying to sell us their own brand of religious snake oil. Don't forget that atheism is a lack of belief. It does not require an image of an imaginary deity to occur."
i agree, but most often the "image" of God that is drawn up in the church, the one of the man in the sky judging us all, is a fallacy, and it must be destroyed, because it causes people to Hate. That is the god that I assume most atheists reject, and I don't blame them. However, i have always believed in God, from as far back as I can remember.
No one had to tell me, my parents weren't all that religious in the beginning. I begged to go to church. So, we went to church and stuck me in the nursery. I was devious, and tricked the staff into letting me out to go to the bathroom, and I would AWOL. i would go to the sanctuary and crawl under the pews until I found my mother's shoes. I didn't want the childrens' Bible stories.
Quite possibly my favorite book (a hefty thing to say in light of Dostoevsky) "Mister God this is Anna" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_God,_This_Is_Anna for all intents and purposes serves as my own personal Bible.
It is a true story about a 19 year old man who finds a five year old wandering the streets, battered and beaten, barely clothed. He takes her home to his mother, and they live together until she dies at 7 years old. Anna never tells her story about her first 5 years, so its hard to say if she was ever "taught" about Mister God. In one chapter Fynn's mother takes her to church, and she hates it and never goes again. She says that Mister God doesn't live there, and in fact he probably hates it that people think he does.
The following is from wiki...
"At five years Anna knew absolutely the purpose of being, knew the meaning of love and was a personal friend and helper of Mister God. At six Anna was a theologian, mathematician, philosopher, poet and gardener. If you asked her a question you would always get an answer—in due course. On some occasions the answer would be delayed for weeks or months; but eventually, in her own good time, the answer would come: direct, simple and much to the point."
Anna lives her life complete, she is involved with everything. The gist of the book is the philosophy of a child who has the wisdom to comprehend more than what would be expected of her. "She never made eight years, she died by an accident. She died with a grin on her beautiful face. She died saying, 'I bet Mister God lets me into heaven for this', and I bet he did too." (quoted from chapter one of the book.)
The ending of the book describes Anna's death, and Fynn's bitterness about it. He visits Anna's grave and sees it to be a riot of flowers. At that moment he lets go of his angst against God. The answer he realizes is 'Anna is in my middle'.
This particular reference is to a conversation between Anna and Fynn. God is part of everybody and everybody is part of God. Fynn walks away from her graveyard enlightened.
While this book focuses a lot on the importance of religion and "Mister God" in Anna's life, this book is really about faith. Mister God, This Is Anna is a book about seeing beauty in things that may not identify as "beautiful" and about the absolute and pure faith Anna bestows to Mister God. Although the story is set in a Christian milieu, the themes that are discussed are not uniquely Christian."
_____________________________________________________________________
For me, and my story, I have always felt like Anna, even before I ever knew her. I saw God in the dirt, in the stars, in my blood, in animals, in rocks, in the Ocean, everywhere. I went to church thinking I would be brought closer to God. Instead, I was molested by one of the deacons, my step father, and so were my brothers. My mother became quite fanatical, had us all living in fear, fear of the Devil, fear of the World, fear of the Flesh, fear of Money (you know the symbols on money are "new age" and Evil, don't you?) She knew what was happening to us though, and tried to hide it. She beat my brother with a leather sandal, giving him 100 swats for having a homosexual spirit after she caught him masturbating with another little boy. So I learned that the Evil was in the church, in the Lies, in her, and all those who pretend to speak for God. It wasn't in sex, and it wasn't in the world, it wasn't the devil, and it wasn't my flesh.
I rebelled against my church and have been an outcast ever since. My own parents to this day (my father and step mother) fear me because of all the Evil I brought into their home, with my incense, and crystals, Tarot cards, and Satanic Bible. Their own pastor refused to marry me because they were convinced I was Evil, even though I put all that stuff in storage long ago.
Now that I am dialoguing with my mother, and challenging her Lies, by challenging the assumed sexuality of God, or that Jesus is the Only way and that all people who have never heard of him or declared him as their own personal savior, by having her read about Buddha, challenging her idea that Christianity is the religion that most respects women, etc. by doing all of that, I have been able to reach her in a way I have never been able to in the past. When i go over my Life and how it has played out, how many near death experiences I have had, some because of her, and including my own suicide attempt, and I think about my life and what I am going to do, i think that God has an important position in my life, and that I have an important purpose to serve in this Life. it isn't something I need for you or anyone else to acknowledge. But you see, if I was like you, and atheist, and closed to any discussion, I couldn't/ wouldn't be having these discussion with my mother. i would still be evil in her eyes, and communication would break down. She would still be trying to save my poor damned soul by telling me how I was born a whore.
So you see, brother blackout, my religion is about destruction, and Life, and I was reminded of Jesus the other day, that he was a rebel of his own family's church, that he usually spoke outdoors, and was most likely homeless, and never had a church, and I identify with him. I think he was a pretty cool guy, but what happened was that the Roman Empire made a religion out of Jesus, built bricks around it, making it a church, and filled it up with gold and ornaments, and used the sword to convert people. i seriously doubt that is what Jesus had in mind, and if he is still around somewhere, i am sure he is totally disgusted with what people have done in his name. If he isn't around somewhere, if I am totally wrong and there is no God, well, then my message is still important, because the Lies have got to stop, humanity depends on it. Love is all that matters, and we must learn to love each other. So long as you have Love, you are saved, in my "religion." and the only Hell is what we create right here on earth, and honestly, i can't imagine a place in the universe as terrible as right here, and there is nothing to fear but ourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skuHHOA6394&feature=related
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
i agree, but most often the "image" of God that is drawn up in the church, the one of the man in the sky judging us all, is a fallacy, and it must be destroyed, because it causes people to Hate.
I don't think you are giving atheists enough credit, if you think that this kind of cartoonish charicature is what causes us to reject the assertions of religion. Instead, most atheists reject these assertions because there is no actual, objecitve evidence that would compel us to accept them. While much nicer than some, your assertions are (intellectually) no better.
No one had to tell me, my parents weren't all that religious in the beginning. I begged to go to church.
Adults often have spotty memories of their early childhoods. There is a significant body research which has shown that the one overwhelming factor which determines the religious propensities of children is the presence of a respected authority figure that instructs the child to believe. It doesn't mean that you have to be rapped on the knuckles twelve times a day by an angry nun for if you don't master your latin verses. The influence can be as subtle as a parent saying casually, "yes, I believe in 'god'."
The statistics show an overwhelming tendency for the children of christian parents grow up to be christians, and the children of muslim parents grow up to be muslim, the children of Buddhists grow up to be Buddhists. In your case, you say that your parents "weren't all that religious in the beginning," which of course implies that they had some sort of belief. And now we have you, who has grown up and now doesn't seem to be "all that religious," though you do still have some beliefs in that regard. that seems to fit the model pretty well.
Anna never tells her story about her first 5 years, so its hard to say if she was ever "taught" about Mister God.
A lot can happen in five years. But it is a reasonable certainty that if Anna knew the term "god" that it was taught to her by someone. Another interesting body of research in to the nature of religion belief comes from studies of children who have been lost or abandoned in the wild, but who managed to survive. These "feral children" have no concept of religion, or often even of language. Of course, "often" is something of a misnomer, as these incidents are (fortunately) very rare in a raw sense.
I went to church thinking I would be brought closer to God. Instead...So I learned that the Evil was in the church, in the Lies, in her, and all those who pretend to speak for God.
I am sorry for your troubles. Having a negative experience at church has led many people to question their respective faiths. In that regard, I am typical. But as sad and personally signifcant as all of that pain may be, it isn't really relevant to the question at hand. There are people in churches who are truly monstrous. But the same is true for people who never set foot in a church. There are also good people in churches (*gasp* I know there are a few people here at ProU who probably just passed out from the shock of seeing me write that.). And, there are good people who could not care any less about churches or "god."
But, what makes one an atheist (as opposed to a rebellious theist) is a respect for reason and logic, and a tendency to be skeptical of ANY assertion, religous or otherwise, which is not supported by actual, objective evidence. An intellectually sound atheist does not "reject" the ideas of religion and "god(s)." Rather, an intellectually sound atheists says, "In light of the lack of evidence, I see no reason to believe in your hypothesis. If you can show me some evidence at a later day, I will be happy to reconsider my opinion."
If he isn't around somewhere, if I am totally wrong and there is no God, well, then my message is still important, because the Lies have got to stop, humanity depends on it.
You say that "the Lies have got to stop" and that "humanity depends on it." I agree. However, if you ARE totally wrong, aren't you just telling a different lie? I don't doubt that many of the lies told by modern religons are motivated by a desire to do good. But a lie is a lie, and when people stop questioning the truth of their beliefs (and this includes atheists), they become prone to dogma, which in turn leads to many of the "evils" which we see in the monolithic religious sects.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
blackout said:
"But, what makes one an atheist (as opposed to a rebellious theist) is a respect for reason and logic, and a tendency to be skeptical of ANY assertion, religous or otherwise, which is not supported by actual, objective evidence. An intellectually sound atheist does not "reject" the ideas of religion and "god(s)." Rather, an intellectually sound atheists says, "In light of the lack of evidence, I see no reason to believe in your hypothesis. If you can show me some evidence at a later day, I will be happy to reconsider my opinion."
And you are probably right about children being "taught" about God, I just can't remember when I was first "taught" until I went to church.
In addition to what I have already shared about my personal life story, I have had experiences that cannot be explained by science. I have seen and felt things that can only be considered "supernatural." Of course someone like yourself would probably call those things manifestations of psychosis, so I won't share them here. I only mention it to say that while I understand that others, like yourself, have not had any evidence presented to suggest that your position is not accurate. This is one of the reasons why I do not seek to convert anyone. I cannot ask others to accept my beliefs when they have not been given the same information.
Also, unlike most outspoken Christians, I do not balk at science. I always hold my beliefs subject to science, meaning if there ever is evidence to suggest that I am wrong, I will not ignore it for the sake of my faith.
blackout asks:
"You say that "the Lies have got to stop" and that "humanity depends on it." I agree. However, if you ARE totally wrong, aren't you just telling a different lie? I don't doubt that many of the lies told by modern religons are motivated by a desire to do good. But a lie is a lie, and when people stop questioning the truth of their beliefs (and this includes atheists), they become prone to dogma, which in turn leads to many of the "evils" which we see in the monolithic religious sects."
If I am totally wrong, am I really guilty of lying? I am not saying that I am right, I am explaining my theory, and the evidence that I have to support it. My evidence is not empirical, nor can it be tested scientifically, yet, nor can my "supernatural" experiences be replicated, so I am fully aware of how weak my position is. Still, I have faith, and I have no reason to doubt it, because so far, scientific evidence that is available to us is very, very limited, considering the apparent infinity of the universe. I am not telling anyone to accept my theory as fact, i am just trying to open up conversations, and encouraging people to ask questions, to open their minds.
Lies hurt people, faith doesn't. Hate hurts people. Open interfaith dialogue does not hurt people, and in fact is the key to ending war, in my humble opinion. So, if you really think that my ideas are harmful, I ask you to consider the effects that they have on the world around me. Judge me by my fruits...
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
Unfortunately, religious experiences of the sort to which I suspect you are referring rarely take place in a controlled environment where they can be examined by neutral observers. I would suspect, however, that there is nothing in your experience that could not be explained relatively easily and in a much less incredible manner than I have come to expect from those who try to defend the origins of such experiences as being "supernatural." That doesn't mean that you are psychotic. In fact, humans are prone to all manner of error which does not rise to the level of psychosis. Any magician worth his or her salt can demonstrate how easy it is to confound even the most stable and intelligent of observers. What is important here is the willingness to examine those experiences in a skeptical and critical fashion, rather than just accepting them as true because the illusion is more comforting than the hard realities of our existence.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I know, this is where you are disheartened, I your pupil, whether you care to admit it or not, disappoint you. I am terribly stubborn. A pain in the ass i know, but at least I am a little more creative than the rest, right? At least you get say new things when you dialogue with me. I like to think you do enjoy this just a little bit? Why am I so fucking stubborn? i have been asking myself this question in other areas of my life as well...Because I know! because i know, and i know i know, and i know i cannot make anyone else know except by being the best person I can be, in the spirit of Ayn Rand, celebrate myself and my power, and because like Anna, I still can think like a child. I know, I am stuck in my childhood, like most of us, and i see the demons at work, Hate, Anger, all the wars between gods and goddesses over the entire history of time, and they are all here, right inside of me and you and everyone, because i see the energy at work, and i know that what we all do to and with each other MATTERS, that none of us are separate, and we have to start acting like it. if i hurt you, hate you, want to change you, want to punish you for not being to my taste of liking and i am saying that this is what God wants me to do, then call me a *liar,* and shout if from the rooftop. call them all out, all the liars, lets not let them dictate our freedom, our laws, our government, because they are liars, and if they weren't they would be treating them just like they should be treated, with love, because they would *know* that what i do to you is brought right back to me, i create my world, my destiny. i decide the future for many. thinking ahead seven generations, always, loving my planet, hoping it survives, hoping my species doesn't become extinct. if i act in my own best interest, and the best interest of my children, and everyone else does too, maybe we can have some fucking peace on the God-damned planet. and then i could sleep at night instead of dreaming up all of the delusional garble for blackout's entertainment.
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
...and maybe just a little dramatic, but it avoids the issue. I don't think you are a bad person. In fact, quite the opposite is true. The only thing that disappoints me is that you seem to be blind to your own worth and need some imaginary construct in order to feel connected to the world around you.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Do you ever feel like you're experiencing something real?
Do you realize that Turtlesuds understands she is living in an abundant universe, but what about you?
Maybe, just like the many amongst us all, can't figure out how to reach or attract it to or upon you?
Maybe too many like yourself are caught inside that limitation, pulling one another down over a better question or answer!
And remember, the really cool part... And when you do, you just might want to come back and answer some of these above questions with an open whatever!
You might capture something which needs no proving, some things just are!
But, if you don't, that’s okay, we already understand what limitation represents.
Don't delay your good!
When I interract with the world around me, yes...that feels real to me. When I am engrossed in the phantasms of my imagination, that is also "real" in the sense that my brain is real and has the ability to think and imagine. So, it really isn't a question of "Are these experiences real?" so much as "Are these experiences imaginary?"
I have met many fine folks who claim to have access to special knowledges and abilities that fall well outside the "normal" realm of the physical world in which we all live. To date, however, those claims have in every case proved to be empty. I am sure that many people like to think that they aren't just as limited as rest of the human race, but I've yet to meet even one who could prove it by doing something that would actually suggest that their claims of suprenatural experience are anything more than wishful thinking.
One of my atheist friends once got into a very interesting argument with one of my pagan friends. The pagan friend kept going on and on about her "magic" and how it made her "powerful" and that she could use it to influence events in the "real world." My atheist friend picked up a rock and asked the pagan friend, "do you think your 'magic' could stop me from hitting you with this rock?" Of course, my pagan friend didn't want to test her theory with this experiment, and she got more than a little angry when my atheist friend decided to test it, anway. (Don't worry...he didn't throw the rock all that hard.) It may seem a little silly, and even childish, but it illustrates the point rather well, I think.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Nothing ever be the same again, I know.
...that doesn't even make sense.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Blue or rather red? None is fine too
that I suspect that blackout's world is probably pretty lackluster. Respectable, honest, and solid, but dull. I could be totally wrong, I know nothing about his day to day experience.
My world is crazy and chaotic, but its great fun when i'm with people i love, and its pretty entertaining, even when things are not going well.
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
...but I think I have a rather exciting life, personally, and I think you might be confusing an unwillingness to put up with bullshit (no offense) with a lack of imagination. I find great joy in observing and contemplating the world around me. I have a great husband, excellent friends, and a loving family. I work a little too much, but other than that I think I live a pretty fulfilling life. It seems to me that "crazy and chaotic" people are probably wasting a lot of time by trying to fill their lives which what culminates in a dilute series of experiences, rather than diving deeply and thoroughly savoring every moment. But, that's just me...
TTFN,
Blackout
P.S.
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
but I will respectfully decline on the invitation to kiss your ass:).
blackout said:
"It seems to me that "crazy and chaotic" people are probably wasting a lot of time by trying to fill their lives which what culminates in a dilute series of experiences, rather than diving deeply and thoroughly savoring every moment."
You may be right, and i am sure this happens quite a bit, but i do not accept this assessment of yours as valid in regards to myself, obviously you do not know me, and obviously you are not acquainted with my acute insight into myself, which i have displayed on this site in many of my blogs. "dilute series of experiences?" seriously, i have to stop now because i am ROFL,,,if only i could call my life that.
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
I can accept this hypothesis, and even consider it. In fact, I will start to test it. In fact, since i have had these realizations in the past few days, I can see how your theory is equally valid, and quite possibly, equally true or maybe even the whole Truth...
blackout said, and I am actually very touched by this, because I feel the Truth in it:
"The only thing that disappoints me is that you seem to be blind to your own worth and need some imaginary construct in order to feel connected to the world around you."
Yes, being blind to my own worth is a huge theme in my life, and i am barely to waking up to it. Reading Ayn Rand is just as inspiring and eye opening as anything else i have talked about...seeing what i can do, what i could do all along, what i have not done, refused to do because i accepted my limitations and weaknesses, because i believed the lies people told me about myself, or imagined that they told me....yes, you are dead on here. and the fact that it disappoints you touches me,
it is the fact that this is true of most people, that most children are growing up in the lie that disappoints me, and i intend to change this, to fight as hard as i can to change the system. its funny too, because reading about Dagny Taggart in Atlas Shrugged, and how much resistance she had to deal with, the common ignorance and willing stupidity of humans around her, who tried to destroy her, and her bravery at making it her will, her intention to follow through, all of this is exactly what I am doing in my life right now, fighting resistance, and telling the truth. if people don't want to hear it, fine, I will make my own business, my own company, that will run efficiently and effectively, that won't let my clients slip through the cracks of this seriously fucked up court dependency system, that i am going to catch some of those kids that are falling through the cracks, and i am going to treat them right, with dignity, and respect, and listen to them, and stop making decisions for them without asking them for their input, and i am going to show those around me that it can be better, we can do it better, we don't have to keep hurting ourselves, we can effectively care the orphans and widows and the elderly, without crippling the system and the taxpayers,, that is my intention.
so even when i step out my fairy tale internal reality, i still see something incredible in my experience, and i know that i have to do it before any of you can really know or take me seriously, i have to create something, make it real, and bring it out of the fairy tale world into the concrete world, materialize it, and still, i am amazed at the beauty of this process, and if there is no such God as i am referring to, well, it makes no difference whatsoever, because still by living in Love and by realizing my own worth and power, i will have done something incredible, and original, and might quite possibly make the world better. so i am perfectly happy with this alternate ending for my story, the one where God isnt there, and all i have is myself, and the people on the planet and love. I choose to hang onto my fantasies though, they inspire me and drive me that much further, and maybe that is only because i need them, because i still don't see my full worth. that's okay isn't it? a suitable substitute, so long as i get the job done, right?
and yes, it is a bit *dramatic,* it was for your entertainment, as I said. i have to work extra hard to debate with you, my friend.
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
...you should do what makes you happy. You just have to decide where Truth lies in the order of your values. If it isn't very high on the list, then no worries. You can be as creative and imaginative with your perception of reality as you want to be. If it floats near the top, however, that's a different story...
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
to always examine my life, far more closely than anyone else.
http://progressiveu.org/blog/52301-scrapbooking-never-ending-story#comme...
and again I say, Judge me by my fruits.
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
I took a silly little fb quiz called "what kind of debater are you?"
my results were: "none"
"You don't have the analytical mindset necessary to be a successful debater. You might speak well, but your organization and argumentation is crap. However, there is a place for you, the wonderful world of... individual events. (AHEM GO BACK TO SPEECH AND DRAMA POSER)."
thought you'd appreciate that :). I think its true in regards to anything "spiritual" i write about, and I think i am decent writer. So what you call "lies" might in fact be my own "stories" and what you call truth (fact) I make into fiction by using my imagination to bring a sense of deep significance to the Great Human Drama.
I am a story teller, not a liar, and I would appreciate if you could see the difference and stop accusing me of something that I am not guilty of. Liars don't show their weaknesses, they don't present the counter argument, they don't want people to see the truth and do everything they can to keep people distracted from the truth. that is why they are so terrible, because they work very hard at suppressing truth. This is not what i do, and in fact is the behavior i that i consistently question.
for your sake, i will give you the sensible and logical alternative for my belief system. Perhaps i am hypomanic, sort of a milder form of bipolar. mental illness does run in my family, i believe my mother is bipolar, but she has never been diagnosed. i have definite cycles, where i spend months depressed. not so much hopeless and helpless, but down, and withdrawn, with little energy, and then there are periods where i am more "manic," where i don't sleep as much, i can't stop thinking, and i make connections all over the place. this reflects in my writing too, i can be tangential and hyperverbal. The point is i see connections where others dont.
However, I don't see this as a disability, i have never been treated for it and wouldn't want to. Like most people with bipolar, i enjoy my mania, it makes life extremely interesting and stimulating. I think its just that i simply "feel" things very deeply, and i have extreme reactions to things. i have learned to tame my behavior to "appear" normal, and no longer fit and rage like i did as an adolescent, but i have always had a very active imagination.
the most important part of my message, which is reflected in everything i write, is the connection between action and consequence. My imagination makes me see a deeper connection than most people. aside from that, i really don't mind if people reject everything i say.
does this mean i am crazy? well, perhaps, but i don't think so because i measure "craziness" by the amount of dysfunction one has in one's life. if I am being a good person, creating good things and enjoying my life, than the fruits of my faith are good.
also, i am capable of being "logical" outside of these discussions regarding faith, and a crazy person doesn't know how to be logical. so, you are free to make up your own mind, and i don't mind one bit if you choose to believe this explanation for why i am so convinced of my faith. and as you like to say, let my readers decide the merit of my words and ideas. you are a unique one, and not everyone shares your opinions. many are scared to even try to dialogue with you, because the fear of having their faith dissected to a mere fairy tale intimidates them, and you with your consistency of logic, have a habit of doing that to us "believers." thing is, I am not scared, because i acknowledge the logical fallacies, and they don't negate me, they just challenge me, often to look deeper, and to only find my faith that much more enriched.
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-xVoQXvohA
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
QUOTE: An intellectually sound atheist does not "reject" the ideas of religion and "god(s)." Rather, an intellectually sound atheists says, "In light of the lack of evidence, I see no reason to believe in your hypothesis. If you can show me some evidence at a later day, I will be happy to reconsider my opinion."
The logic: There is a God or we are predestined as in some program. As careless as human kinds are, we should have blown the world up by accident if not one of these.
Let love be you mentor!
Your comment doesn't make any sense.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Marriage in the Bible
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I left out a word.
We are not always aware of the hide danger. But, we survive.
We have traveled many uncharted territories. But, we survive.
We have played games with others emotions. But, we survive.
A program has a predicable ending, because it is a program.
Consider the Matrix or is it God the reason we survive?
Let love be you mentor!
You still aren't making any sense. Perhaps you might try responding for a change with a coherent, on-topic response?
TTFN,
Blackout
---
Marriage in the Bible
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
we're more careful than you might think.
I can relate to your connections with God at an early age. I can remember a connection around four or five. I was neglected as a child. I did not get toys for the holidays. It didn’t bother me until I was a lot older. It was then I look back and wondered why I was neglected. Now I understand it was because I am a child of God I was neglected. I know these are the same reasons most children are neglected or abused. I have seen parents mistreat their children who are God like. If you have evil parents they will keep you down if you are God like. They have contributed to many of the social problems we may have in life. One of them being a lack of confidences. My confidences came when I left home. As a child, I often found money. God’s way of taking care of my being neglected.
I can relate to you seeing things or your experiences. I won $10,000 on cash-three-lottery once and spent it all on vacation. I saw the numbers in the measurement of a football field in a dream. It also told me how many times to play on the three numbers. I dreamed three numbers again but, told others so they could be win too. This does not work. The last time, on the first day, I played $20. I did not win. But, the number came through, not in the order I played them. I played $20 the next day. The number came in a different order again. The next two days I was going to box the numbers but forgot to play. The 4th day the numbers came in the order I initiatively played them. I think I was being greed playing $20. If I had played less, 5, I would have won.
I have been places in my dreams. One place I went the year was 13069 and MLK was killed in 13040? When I woke up, I calculated that time and his death and our time and his death. And it came out 29 years in each case. I was conscious in this dream so I started working on getting the lotto numbers. As the person was looking for the newspaper to get the results, the vision of this started fading out. Each time I tried something like this it fades out. It will not allow me to get those numbers. It is just not part of my destiny to win all that money. It not really about the money I just like to see can it be done.
You may have heard the world will be destroyed by fire next time. I think this is true because I have had two dreams, years apart, of everything looking like charcoal, burned. It was the same dream each time. I did not see what caused it, just the end results. I had another dream way back in 1988 about what I think was judgement. I have posted it at http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/53011-jah-7-day-day-judgment.
I have found there is really no way you can prove this to others. When you reveal what, you have seen of the future it doesn’t come true. I saw the destruction of New Orleans in 2007 by water. I told everyone I knew. New Orleans is still there. I dreamed about Katrina back in 1989. In the dream I saw moving snapshots. One of the super dome, one of water running over the sidewalk, and one of people getting on a bus. I had no idea as to why this was taking place. Rita hit Beaumont, TX and I saw this eight days before it happens, but I did not realize I had until after the hurricane hit and I was looking for a generator. It was then it came to me I was doing the same thing in the dream. It was at this moment I was able to think back on the dream I had of Katrina and realized what the snapshots were all about. I did not see the hurricane (Rita), just the after mass with the trees all over the place.
About all those different religions, today not many of them are about praising God. This is revealed in the state of affairs of the country. NO matter what anyone may tell you. Judgement is close. Embrace the laws of God http://www.jah7.org/laws.htm
Let love be you mentor!
i wish i could be so "lucky" with money, but it is my role to work hard for everything, so its okay...
still, i believe that these experiences are coming from an outside source, its the same process by which most discoveries are made, i believe this is a lot of what occurred with Isaac Newton, for instance, and how he discovered so many things...
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
" i believe this is a lot of what occurred with Isaac Newton, for instance, and how he discovered so many things..."
Not just him but all those who came up with theories and laws. The dream I posted, a few years after having it, the movie, ID4 was released. It contained some similarities. I think me and the writer had the same dream.
Let love be you mentor!
Don't bother.....x
in reply to one of my replies to blackout below, but the site has most recent posts moving to the top now, so I wanted to clarify for our readers that wombels *is not* telling me not to bother in reply to original blog.
and wombels, i know why you say this. you are always looking out for me, and i appreciate it. your comments of affirmation that you leave me here and there do so much for me, and keep me going, when most of the world is silent. I need them. Not all the time, one takes me pretty far, so don't feel pressure, but i need that kind of support, that only you know how to give.
I *do* bother with blackout because he is my friend. I do not see his criticisms or questions as threatening. he is doing something very important. It is important to the world because he is drawing a very clear line of what can be considered universally True and what are things that cannot be *relied* on as true because they lack concrete substantiation. That is important because society has to function. When we squabble about God and religion in this world, people tend to pretty cocky and think they are supposed to be like God's task force that has to police the world. This is a dangerous social phenomenon, and it is one I am determined to challenge in my life. So, blackout is my number one ally in this aim.
The disagreements he and I have are progressive. He challenges me to a standard of logic and reasoning, which I ultimately reject in favor of intuition and insight. This is a psychological difference between use. It is one of the things measured in the Myer's Briggs personality test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator. that is the core reason blackout and I are forever in disagreement, I have a different lens through which i am observing the world.
All of us have our own points of view, and no two are ever alike at the same time. the world we observe is also ever changing, and new truths are being discovered daily. that is because people continue to question what is and try to see what can be. That is what my faith is centered on. I do not claim to have any answers regarding the reality of God, all I *know* for a fact, and *can prove* is that living in love is the best answer to *all* of the suffering in the world. I happen to find spiritual meaning in this.
blackout would find enjoyment and a sense of satisfaction at living a responsible and ethical life. what is different is our experience and the amount of pleasure vs. pain he and i are capable of feeling. this is primarily a difference in our personalities, and our brain chemistry. my reactions to stimuli of any kind are hyper reactive. blackout is probably pretty much "balanced,* or closer to the norm. these are things that neither of us have much control over. therefore, no amount of good logic and reason will ever erase the significance that I see behind everything.
as for the discussion itself, well it has been very good for me, and i have created some scraps in it that will one day find themselves into my Scrapbooking, so I love it. I don't if it does blackout any good at all, but he gets to do what he does best, which is to bring scrutiny that seeks integrity, and so I see no harm done whatsoever. and hopefully, our readers will find themselves asking themselves their own questions.
thanks for the support though :)x
"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard
Any idea you have of God, is not God, it’s an idea!