Ok, so, I just got back from seeing Bill Maher's movie, "Religulous." If you haven't seen this movie yet, you need to. It brings up so many interesting points and counter-points. I obviously don't know about anybody reading this right now, but I, myself, am not a religious person. I find it to be pointless and I think most, if not all "holy texts" are books filled with lies made by men desperate for power. Did I also mention that I think most religions are run by crooks who swindle hard working people out of their money so they don't have to have a real job? Anyways, so this movie was basically tailor made for people like me. However, I believe if you are a person of faith you NEED to see this movie if only to open the lines of intellectual debate among the different religions and non-religions. Interesting fact: 16% of Americans claim to be atheist/agnostic. We have to open the lines of communication, people, and this is a great way to start.
One of the more interesting points that I saw tonight is the comparison of Jesus, lord and savior of Christianity, and Horus, falcon headed deity from Egypt. For those interested, here's a link to a site detailing, in depth, the similarities between the two: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm As I watched the film and looked through the tables on the website it seems to me that Christianity just cut and pasted Horus onto Jesus. Really, if that's the case, why should I believe anything written past the fall of the Egyptian dynasty?
I realize that this is most likely going to be very inflammatory, but I would love to have some discussion on this. Please, post any and all reasonable and intellectual comments and lets get a dialogue going.
Ok, so, I just got back from seeing Bill Maher's movie, "Religulous." If you haven't seen this movie yet, you need to. It brings up so many interesting points and counter-points. It also brings up Bill Maher's biased opinion. People have tried to disprove Jesus Christ for centuries; so far no argument poised to me could possibly convince me that Jesus Christ is not real. He is a living breathing God.
I obviously don't know about anybody reading this right now, but I, myself, am not a religious person. I find it to be pointless and I think most, if not all "holy texts" are books filled with lies made by men desperate for power. The Gospels were written by men who lived in poverty, who loved and cared for their fellow man. I am not a religious person either but I am a follower of Jesus Christ.
One of the more interesting points that I saw tonight is the comparison of Jesus, lord and savior of Christianity, and Horus, falcon headed deity from Egypt. For those interested, here's a link to a site detailing, in depth, the similarities between the two: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm As I watched the film and looked through the tables on the website it seems to me that Christianity just cut and pasted Horus onto Jesus. Really, if that's the case, why should I believe anything written past the fall of the Egyptian dynasty? I have read about Horus, what I read was mere words on a interesting myth and he has nothing in common with Jesus Christ . Jesus impacts lives, changes lives, loves everyone. Jesus was born of a virgin birth, the Son of God, lived on earth as God man, had 12 disciples, was beaten with a cat of nine tails, nailed to cross and crucified, died and rose again 3 days. He took on the Sins of the entire world on the cross so we can have the free gift of salvation. He died for our sins mine and yours, because he loves us. There is hope in Jesus Christ. If you want to know the truth the real truth read the Gospels in the New Testament. If you are interested in facts, then read the bible. How can you give a truly informed decision based on a movie? Bill Maher does not have a degree in religion he just has an opinion based on other opinions. After you the bible and then form an opinion, your blog will have credibility.
I realize that this is most likely going to be very inflammatory, but I would love to have some discussion on this. Please, post any and all reasonable and intellectual comments and lets get a dialogue going.
I am not inflamed just sad, I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, he is real Horus is dead just a legend people do not worship him across the globe. Jesus Christ loves you and offers you the free gift of salvation. He died and rose again so that you may have life.
That's awesome that you have that kind of faith, I don't, but that's my deal. What I really am interested in is if you went to the link posted and if you did what do you make of the obvious similarities between Horus and Jesus. In theological terms, Horus did come quite a bit before Jesus. I'm just curious on people's opinions about religion in general, and about the Horus/Jesus relationship.
Encyclopedias normally have facts rather than opinions. But hey I will make deal with you; I will look at your website about Horus, if you look up Jesus in the Bible New testament. After all, I think that is only fair, all you have to do is read and plus you will be well informed to answer responses to your blog.
Did Bill Maher happen to mention that the Jews were salves in Egypt for centuries prior to Jesus’ birth and the Old Testament Prophets prophesied about Jesus the Messiah even while in Egypt? So could Horus be an influence of the Jews slaves who inhabited the land Egypt and spoke of the Messiah?
I hope you read all my responses. I replied after each of your statements. I am new to this site and forgot to put [/quote] before I replied to each statement.
Man you have to read the Bible. That website is a stretch, I will have to reread the story of Horus, my memory fails me on this, I can't remember enough details to argue wheather the information is correct about Horus on this website.
I can tell you one thing the information about Jesus definitely has a bias spin and is twisted to make this comparison. Some statements are just not true. Still Jesus was prophesied about in the Bible as far back as Genesis which is the beginning, so I would think the Jews influenced the Egyptians rather than vice versa. Joseph brought the Jews to Egypt and they served them as salves for 400 hundred years. Now Joseph has similarities to Jesus and he saved Egypt from a great famine. So that could also mean Horus is a representation of Joseph to honor all he did to save Egypt.
There are a lot of misleading statements in that website. Do your own research you will see stark differences. I will not be able to convince you, you need to read it yourself.
I lived in the Middle East, Europe and Japan. I have been expoused to various cultures and religions. Jesus is the way the truth and the life, I found my answer I don't need to look any longer. If you want me to break down each comparison to Jesus on that website with the Bible I can do that or if you have specific question I can answer that.
this what wikipedia says about Horus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
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I know I forgot to mention this earlier, but while I did say that I'm not a religious person, that doesn't mean I've never studied religion. I've read the bible, I've been to numerous churches of differing faiths; catholic, protestant, jehovah's witness, etc. I've studied the older religions, like the Greek/Roman and older Mesopotamian religions. I've done my homework, so to speak. I just really find this to be one of the most interesting topics that one can partake in and I love to hear everyone's opinions on the matter.
I think is quite believable that the Horus/Jesus relation is possible. There are so many similarities between the principles of one religion copied and pasted on another. I believe the most popular example of this is the Romans use of Greek and Egyptian Gods with different names. For this to happen again it quite possible.
I look forward to seeing this movie, and I'm also seeing Bill Mahar do stand up in a few weeks!
Do you mind specifically telling me which Bible verses caused you to see an actual Horus/Jesus link. I like to consider myself a fact finder and use legit resourses rather the internet or Hollywood to form my opinions.
I am sure Egypt was desperate to create their own god to counter the mission and impact Jesus Christ has on the world. I mean really Horus is just another dead false god, if you asked every America you find over the course of a month, who is Horus and who is Jesus is 1 out of a 1000 might know who Horus is, everyone knows who Jesus Christ is, hands down. No one is passionate about Horus, not like they are about Jesus Christ. As far as Jesus goes, those who oppose Him and those who believe in Him are very passionate about their beliefs. No one cares about Horus, except some standup comic and Jesus haters who passionately hate Jesus Maher’s has said as much on his TV show more than once. So in a nutshell who cares about Horus no one of any importance, Maher’s is just a hater.
First, calm down. No need to get all worked up over a little religion discussion.
"I am sure Egypt was desperate to create their own god to counter the mission and impact Jesus Christ has on the world."
As for that, the Egyptian religion was around long before the thought of Jesus Christ was even in anyone's brain. In case you didn't know, there were quite a few religions before Christianity. I don't particularly care about Horus, either, I just find it interesting to see the similarities between "another dead false god" and the one that so many people put soooo much faith into. For example: Both were born by virgins, both of whom were named Mary/Meri. Both were of royal decent and born in a manger. Both births were announced by an angel and both were heralded by a star, bringing three wise men and three solar deities respectfully. Both were baptized at 30 and afterwards both John the Baptist and Anup the Baptiser were beheaded.
Tha's just a few of many similarities. I've left the website in my original post if you want to look at the site I found.
I am calm - but passionate, I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, rather than a religion. Religion was created by man for those who refuse to accept Gods grace and want to do things on their own terms. Who are the first people on the road to hell in the Bible? The cowardly. That is the people weak of mind, and lack the courage to stand up to world and believe in Jesus Christ. It is the easy way out to believe Bill Maher and the other Hollywood elite. Socially acceptable ideology
So 1st lets establish this. You in your own words said you read the bible. So you must know Jesus has been around since the beginning of time during creation. Gen. 1:26 Let *US* make man" Us meaning the Trinity - The Father (God), Son(Jesus) and Holy Ghost (the Spirit of God) Then - "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created Him. Jesus came to earth as a God Man (man was created in God’s Image- not a eagle headed thing-a-magig) to live among us, but that was not when the Son of God came into existence, but for Him to save us he had to come down to earth as God Man to stop the blood sacrifices of the Jewish religion for Sin. BTW the Jewish religion which is the 1st religion since the creation of man and the foundation for Christianity. Jesus was the sacrifice for our sins because man could not keep to the laws of the Old Testament Jewish religion. Romans 3:23 We all Sin and fall short of the Glory of God. God is a just God can’t ignore Sin, but God is Holy and loves us and gave His son to save us.John 3:16 . Jesus came to earth to sacrifice Himself to save us, don’t you see- He took on our Sin, all the sin of man, all the sin of the world so whomsoever believeth can be saved and have everlasting life. John 6:47. and 1John 5:13
That we can have freedom of religion, all religion. What a gift of love All men are flawed because of Adam and Eves disobedience to God they introduced Sin into the world. Horus all I have to say about him is Matthew 24:24. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. So yes I get passionate when people spread these lies. The bible text is thousands of years old and anticipated this kind of stuff way back then. This was not written just this year on some website.
As to the website it neither confirmed nor denied Horus mothe was a virgin, they could only assume. I also reference the encyclopedia on Horus and I gave you link to that and that website and if you read both websites, there is a stark difference between the Horus on each website. I tend to favor the online encyclopedia since it was stating facts and not putting a spin on the fact to make a case between Jesus and Horus.
I think it's funny that you think an online encyclopedia is an unbiased source of information.
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The website I provided at the beginning provides all the source material that they used at the bottom of the page, so I tend to believe that site more than some online encylopedia. Also, you say that Jesus has been around since the "creation". Well, that's if you believe in creationism, which I don't. Big Bang theory and evolution for me, please. Much more scientific data to back that up. Also, in case you haven't noticed, lately it's much more socially acceptable to be faithful to Jesus than to have no religion at all. That's what's won the last two elections if I remember correctly. So, if anything I'm in the minority and being bullied by the majority.
And I hope that you don't think I'm trying to sway anyone from believing what they will. As I've said I just find this topic very interesting and actually fun to talk about.
I love talking about God every chance I get and Love head to head debates they are a ton of fun. I have really enjoyed talking with you on this blog. Please do not mistake my passion as me trying to bully you. One thing I know for sure, Jesus would never force Himself on anyone. He offers all, the free gift salvation, your choice. He loves you and wants to offer you a personal relationship with Him and eternal life with Him, but God offers it to you for free, He gave you free will to decide for yourself.
Sure many so called Christians have abused even to the point of corruption the power that Jesus Christ has on the real Christian. I can discern the charlatans from the true believers because the true believers love their neighbors as themselves and serve them. With the exception of few be careful who you watch on TV most are charlatans. I only watch Charles Stanley, Adrian Rogers, Tony Evans and other men of that character.
Point taken in regards to the online encyclopedia and I agree with point for the majority of the sites on the web, including the website referenced on Horus. I read about Horus before in college I was Christian at that time as well, did not even notice it any similarities at that time, but I was not looking for any, do not have that text book any longer.
Great that you brought up the Big Bang theory and the theory evolution, the key word here is theory which means unproven. So please do not try to push that off as facts. Scientists are disproving this on a daily basis. I also have a great website that disputes these theories and with your great mind I know you would love to research it and get other views. I can tell you are the type of person who must be well informed. So here it is http://www.answersingenesis.org there is audio and lots videos and yes scientific backup.
God did not really focus much about creation but He did let us know He created us and the universe. There is no way the Bible could go into every detail and answer every question because then it would lose focus on its true purpose as a guide for live our lives by.
From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible is filled with God's words. The Holy Spirit oversaw the writing of His message to be sure it was relevant, reliable, and without error.
The Scriptures contain the Lord's complete revelation about His character, kingdom, and plan of salvation. Consider the variety and importance of the topics covered in this timeless book: the creation of our world; the fall of man; the presence and power of sin; the penalty owed for transgression; future judgment; Satan's program; our need for a Savior; His offer of forgiveness; the redemption of mankind; the history of faith; and wisdom for living. Questions about life's meaning, man's purpose, the source of evil, and life after death are also answered.
All sections of the Word are valuable and interconnected. For example, the gospels tell about redemption, while the Old Testament contains prophecies about the Messiah who would come to save us. John 1:29 proclaimed that Jesus was the Lamb of God, who would take away our sins; Leviticus and Numbers help us understand this concept through descriptions of the sacrificial system. The first book of the Bible teaches us that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6). And in the New Testament, we learn that everyone's salvation is by faith alone, and not through works (Eph. 2:8-9).
God gave us the Bible so we might know Him personally, be adopted into His family, and bring glory to His name. Make it your goal to become more familiar with the most important book ever written.
I know because I have a personal relationship with Jesus it easier for me to accept more thingson faith but God has proven His love to me over and over. No one has ever loved me like Jesus has.
Prophecies about Jesus Christ abound in the Old Testament. However, the men who wrote down God's message didn't always understand its full meaning. Events needed to unfold and further knowledge had to be provided before more complete significance could be grasped. In fact, Jesus Himself said that there was more to be known but the disciples were not ready for it (John 16:12).
# Let's look at some Old Testament truths about the Messiah that were understood more clearly later on--namely, that He was . . . Preexistent. Micah 5:2 prophesied that One coming from Bethlehem would have origins in eternity past. John 7:42 says that Jesus came "from Bethlehem . . . where David was," while Colossians 1:16 names Him as Creator.
# Divine. When speaking to Moses, God identified Himself as "I am" (Ex. 3:14). Jesus declared that He Himself was the one spoken of as "I am" (John 8:58).
# Our Suffering Servant. Hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus, Isaiah described the Messiah's agony and death (53:3-8). But the nation of Israel wasn't anticipating the Anointed One to be a substitute who would pay their sin-debt. They were looking instead for the promised king of Isaiah 9:6. The purpose of Jesus' first coming wasn't to lead the government, but to serve and give His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28).
He suffered and died to do just that.
The Holy Spirit illuminates divine truth for believers who rely on His help as they study the Word. Ask for His insights whenever you read the Bible.
There is historical evidence behind the existence of Mohammad, who recognized Jesus, and the Quran recognizes Jesus (Eesa) as well. Many men have been born on this planet who have worked to save human kind. The two aforementioned are recognized as direct prophets of God, working for the salvation of human beings.
Institutionalized religion, like most other things in our civilization has fallen into the wrong hands and has been corrupted to its core. It has been used for political and economic agendas and has been the cause of many deaths.
I am a Muslim. I understand my religion through the eyes of God. I see it as God would have seen it, trying to shepherd lost men into the path of God (which we still have not found). So I do not take it literally, but try to get the message that God is sending through these holy books. I think it it pretty unlikely that Adam was the first man. However, he may be a significant man in terms of our civilization. I believe men evolved out of their ancestors who were also the ancestors of monkeys.
I will post a blog entry on this.
To quote a great Man of God and follower of Jesus Christ - Dr. Tony Evans "Be real careful in believing the *Theory* of Evolution, it can make a monkey out of you. www.tonyevans.org
I believe we were all created by a loving God, with a plan for lives. That we all have a purpose in Gods plan.
I lived in Saudi Arabia for three years; I experienced the Ramadan and witnessed some of the Hajj.
BTW in keeping with this blog, the Quran does not acknowledge Horus.
I just thought I would quote the Quran here...
Muslims respect and revere Jesus (SAW) and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as 'Jesus', but always adds the phrase 'upon him be peace'. The Quran confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Quran is entitled 'Mary'), and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation. The Quran describes the Annunciation as follows:
'Behold!' the Angel said, 'God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and shall be of the righteous.' She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: 'Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He says to it, "Be!" and it is.' (Quran, 3.42-7)
Jesus (SAW) was born miraculously through the same power which had brought Adam (SAW) into being without a father:
Truly, the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then said to him, 'Be!' and he was. (3.59) During his prophetic mission Jesus (SAW) performed many miracles. The Quran tells us that he said:
'I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God's leave.' (3.49)
Neither Muhammad (SAW) nor Jesus (SAW) came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in One God, brought by earlier prophets, but to confirm and renew it. In the Quran Jesus (SAW) is reported as saying that he came:
'To attest the law which was before me. And to make lawful to you paff of what was forbidden you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey Me.' (3:5O)
The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said:
'Whoever believes there is no god but God, alone without partner, that Muhammad (SAW) is His messenger, that Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, His word breathed into Mary and a spirit emanating from Him, and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into Heaven.' (Hadith from Bukhari)
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For the record - these quotes do not represent my beliefs. I believe in the Trinity - Father -Son - Holy Ghost. That Jesus is God the Son and that he is the way the truth and the life and the only way to the Father is through Him. He was crucified for our sins and rose again to give us the free gift of salvation. That once you believe (truly) you cannot be snatched from His hands. You cannot earn your salvation or lose it, Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross, He was the sacrifice for us on the cross because he loved us that much, and he provided a way. I have freedom in Jesus Christ.
If you want life at its best then believe in God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ
He let His Son die for us so that we can spend eternal life with Him, that is how much God loves us. You only have to Accept, Believe and Confess Jesus Christ to be saved.
Institutionalized Religion - That is why I am just a follower of Jesus Christ, I love Him and I have a personal relationship with Him and He speaks to my heart everyday through prayer and reading His word. I am not perfect, I can only aspire to be like Him one day and I have a long way to go, a long, long way to go. But my heart aches for Jesus and breaks for those who are lost. Jesus is my Sheppard.
Is that the same thing?
Please read my blog, "Religious Intolerance Is Everywhere":
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/50436-religious-intolerance-everywhere
"Consistency is not a human trait" - Maude, from Harold and Maude
I too just saw Religulous and did some research on its contents since i hate taking someone else's word for it. (I like to check references, what can I say?) One of the reasons I came to this blog was the information from the movie regarding Jesus and "man-god saviors of humanity" in other cultures. After reading through your post, I reviewed both the website you mentioned and googled Horus. Over a three day period I did some extensive checking regarding the references listed in the web address you provided and have these observations:
1) some degree of bias effects either side of the argument; those arguing in favor of plagiarism in the story of Christ, and those opposed. But the majority of bias I find is on the side of the Christians, (especially w/in your post.) I found the original web-address (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm) fairly even-handed, admitting appropriately where there was some room for error (2 out of 36 comparisons.)
2) What many of your posting bloggers seem to miss is the Christian story and its relevant details comes 1200 years after the Egyptian one. Any prophecies regarding Christ in the Old Testament do not mention these 34 (possibly 36 comparisons.) For example, John the Baptist and his subsequent beheading is not mentioned in the old testament. The sermon on the mount was not prophesied. Death by crucifixion with two thieves at his side is not prophesied. Women witnessing his resurrection is not prophesied. Saying the prophesies of Christ in the old testament gave rise to the Egyptian myth of Horus is a fallacy. It's therefore *highly unlikely* Egyptians copied from the Christ story; consequently It's highly likely the story of Christ is a copy of the Egyptian myth of Horus.
* I use the words 'highly likely' when most people would say impossible. In other words, we can verify the date of writing in the Egyptian book of the Dead and it clearly came 1200 years before Christ or any comparable details in the story of Christ. Is it possible the opposite is true? There's a similar chance every atom in your body will spontaneously quantum tunnel to the moon and you'll die of asphyxiation at the end of this paragraph. Are you still here?
3) Many people quote the bible but fail to have studied the whole thing. I have. I'm no scholar but I've counted some 450 morally unacceptable events/commandments/teachings in the bible including murder of innocents, lifelong rape, slavery and torture. (that's a different post, no?) I find the contemporary story of Christ a plagiarism and a lie. My study of the Jewish carpenter reveals some great moral teachings from a man who was willing to die for his cause, but does not reveal the 'only son of god.'
Requests for references will gladly be met, but be warned, its a long list.
You left a fascinating post. Thanks for sharing how you found ProU, I hope you find reason to play some more.
I am very intrigued by your conclusion, and would love to see a list of references. Also, I would love to read that blog on unacceptable events, commandments and teachings.
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