Upon reading many arguments that use the bible as the source of their beliefs prompted me to think of a specific story in the bible that may prove that God is not as infallible as believed.
The story of Noah and his ark are told in the book of Genesis, chapters 6-9. For those of you who are not familiar with this story, it describes how God, disgusted with the behavior of the humans he has created, decides to wipe out their existence by flooding the earth, choosing to spare one man, his family, and a male/female pair of animals from every species, erasing the rest of all air breathing creatures from existence.
From the story thus far, I get the distinct impression that God possessed quite a bit of regret with his creation. Now if there was an all-powerful, all-knowing being who is able to see not only the entire past and present, but the future as well (many religious people I know tend to say that only God knows our futures), how could he not know how all of these humans would end up behaving? The story obviously portrays God with much more human-like qualities than the God-like qualities he supposedly owns.
In the end of the story, God even admits that he had made a mistake and vows never to destroy the earth in this manner again. So, again, I wonder why an infallible being would admit to making a mistake in the first place?
The entire story shows God as human, capable of error. Doesn’t this contradict the meaning of God? I thought only humans made mistakes, not supreme, all-knowing beings.
I am (obviously) not a very religious person, but, rather, a very skeptical one. I do admit that oftentimes the thought of a higher power provides comfort to me. I have no ideas or conceptions about this higher power, the qualities of the higher power, or anything else for that matter. Just that when times are tough, it’s nice to believe that when I talk to myself someone or something is listening to me. The purpose of this blog, however, has nothing to do with the existence of any God, but the bible and its use to support claims.
My point is, I do not see the validity of using the bible, an obviously fictional book, as a tool to support one’s views on topics such as marriage, procreation, abortion, or anything else, for that matter. It seems almost like using the movie Independence Day to prove the existence of life on other planets. I am not saying that everyone needs to change their opinion; just that evidence for arguments should be concrete. I’ll be willing to bet, like the whole “turn the other cheek” and “an eye for an eye” routine occurs quite often throughout the bible. For one lesson, I am sure that another exists that can be used to contradict the first. And, I can only speak for myself, but when I see someone put “the bible says” as the only support for their beliefs, I tend to dismiss their arguments right away. I pride myself in coming up with my own set of ethics based on my own experiences and conceptions of right and wrong. I enjoy determining the rightness or wrongness of my actions, not because I read somewhere that it’s right or wrong, but because I truly believe that the action is ethical or unethical.
I will admit that, being a Christian myself, the fact that you said the Bible was obviously fictional was kind of offensive to me. But, I'm not gonna get mad about that.
But I do not believe that God knows all that will happen. The general picture, maybe. He does have plans. But the future is not concrete. Every choice that every person makes each day shapes the future. It was a choice on Eve's part to listen to the serpent and disobey God's command. And it was a choice on Noah's part to obey God. God did not make us perfect, for He gave us the gift of free will. And it is our responsibility to use that gift wisely. If we do not do so, that does not mean that God has goofed up. That means that we have goofed up. This is what I believe. God has a plan, but the future is not concrete, and plans can be altered to fit what comes. And it really bothers me when people say that God sees the future and all that. It's like they're saying that they don't have to do anything, because God has it planned out, and whatever happens is happening regardless of anything they do.
Also, you're right about the contradictions in the Bible. But the situations have to be looked at individually. There is reason behind each that supports them and brings the contradicting stories together and unites them. I can't give any examples off the top of my head, because I'm not that much of a Bible person myself, drawing my faith from my experiences, but my pastor could point out a few...
Maybe I'll ask him about it next week...see what he has to say, see what I think, compare, etcetera...
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
I really don't mean to offend anyone, as I am only writing my own beliefs and opinions.
I WOULD however be interested in knowing what your pastor says.
The part of the story that drives me crazy is the end where God practically admits that he made a mistake and vows never to flood the earth again. I wouldn't mind knowing how a pastor would explain the human qualities attributed to God in the story.
Well, the Bible does say that God made mad in his own image. Perhaps that includes the ability to make mistakes? I'll talk to my pastor about it next chance I get, and get back to you with what he says. He actually has a lot of logical reaoning behind a lot of the Bible. More so than any other pastor I've known, that's for sure.
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
Perhaps that includes the ability to make mistakes?
If Yahweh could make mistakes, wouldn't that bring into question the infallibility of the Bible? The Bible is considered by the vast majority of Christians to be infallible because it was ultimately written by a perfect god (Yahweh). However, if Yahweh is not perfect, then he is not capable of creating a perfect anything, including a book.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
This is exactly how I take the story. If God is willing to admit he made a mistake by flooding the earth, what other "mistakes" could God have made throughout the bible.
I am not a biblical scholar by FAR, but this is the exact reason I can never accept any argument that uses "the bible says so" as its defense.
I never said that the Bible was perfect. Men wrote the Bible. We can all agree to that. But think about the time in which it was written. There would have been no purpose to simply making up stories. The Bible is a record of what people witnessed, and as such, it isn't perfect. But to say that it is entirely fictional for that reason is just as bad as taking it all as the absolute literal truth. Christians choose to believe that the events in the Bible really happened. But it needs to be kept in mind that it was written my man. There are inconsistensies, contradictions, and the like. I'll be one of the first to admit that.
But anyone who's read the Bible has to admit that it outlines a very good set of morals and values, and even if one doesn't believe it is true, they can still take somthing of value away from it.
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
I wouldn't exactly claim the Bible is completely fictional since through science we have found out that the wars and battles mentioned in the Bible did take place. If I am not mistaken, they have found evidence of a great flood that did once cover a big portion or all of the earth. But I may be wrong.
Who knows, maybe the Bible is in line with actual happenings but the authors just wrote it into a fictional way. Kind of like a movie "based on a true story" with some bends here and there in the storyline.
I am not overtly religious but I do believe a Deity created the universe. Whether the Deity plays a role in our current lives is beyond my knowledge.
"Far and away the best prize life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." - Theodore Roosevelt
I would agree that the bible isn't entirely fictional. It is at least rooted in some small grain of truths. Some of the events described did happen in some way. Many did not. None that have any flavor of the miraculous, including the flood, have been backed up by any outside evidence.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Quite a bit of fictional literature contains many aspects of reality. For example, if a book takes place during World War II, the war did, in fact, occur, but the characters in the book did not.
Many things mentioned in the Bible have been proven to take place, like the parting of the Red Sea could have been during the low tide. Just because there was a flood does not make God talking to Noah fact. The logic just doesn't flow that way.
I like your example of using fictional literature as opposed to my movie example. It explains it more vividly.
Just had to point that out. :)
"Far and away the best prize life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." - Theodore Roosevelt
God, as portrayed in the old testament (at least), is not described as a perfect entity. Yaweh admits (and seems proud of) his own flaws. Interestingly, there is also a very polytheistic flavor to the old testament, as if the Hebrew god wasn't the only god, just the best one. (Best=Most Powerful)
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Wow. I've never heard any polytheistic aspects of the old testament. I wonder if there are any "unwritten chapters" of the bible where God associates with some of the other gods....I think I am going to research that next.
Perhaps my own conceptions of God=perfection comes from my own upbringing. I have often been told that "no one is perfect except for God." I can only speak for my own experiences and education, but I LOVE to hear other takes and explanations.
It's not so much that Christianity is polytheist, but that the way things are worded implies that the Old Gods also existed.
The first one or two of the 10 Commandments (there's actually a few different variations of the 10 Commandments and when put all together, there ends up being like 12, partially depending on how some of them are grouped), for example, state:
1. I am your God.
2. You shall have no other gods before me.
This would imply the existence of other gods besides Yahweh. I believe there are other references, but I'm not well versed in the Old Testament as a whole and in regards to these references. As far as I know, Yahweh is never depicted associating with any other god, not even in the Apocryphal texts. That doesn't mean such works never existed, but considering they would have been considered blasphemous, they were more than likely destroyed.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
Who's to say who is right?
Anyway, when I was in a Lutheran school, they taught us that the "no other gods before me" bit referred to idols, or to anything that might come before God, like money. There were tons of idols worshiped all over the region, and while Moses was receiving the ten commandments, the people built an idol and began worshiping it.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
That is what I was taught as well - that putting too much stock in earthly things, money is a great example, would be an example of worshiping a "false" god.
It's such a shame that the bible was picked through and so many other books and chapters were destroyed. I would be very interested to know what teachings early Christians felt were not worthy of being referred to as "God's word."
The Apocryphal texts would be a good place for you to start, then. Those are the books that we know of that didn't make it into the Bible. In all, I think there are a good 30 or so.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
As dragonwolf said, the first commandment implies polytheism. So does the episode with the Egyptian priests. They can call on their gods to perform miracles, but the miracles of Moses are stronger.
As for the lack of perfection, that is very contradictory in the OT. (as I said, I'm not that familiar with the NT) Certainly, most people believe god to be perfect despite episodes in the OT that reveal god's lack of perfection. It is not uncommon to pick and choose what parts to read literally and what parts to ignore or call symbolic.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
I think it is that reason precisely that drives me crazy when people use the Bible as evidence for an argument. In one breath, stories are taken as fact and in the next the stories are symbolic. In my opinion (I stress opinion because I know many others disagree) the bible is either literal or symbolic, you can't pick and choose which are literal or symbolic just out of convenience to support actions or beliefs.
And I think that's the perfect word for it, and I wish I would have thought of it last night when I was writing this - convenience. I just think it makes a lazy argument.
If you're interesting in the Old Testament primarily, then reading some of the Kabbalistic interpretations of things could be mighty interesting. They're based on Judaism, they just kinda go... off on some interesting tangents.
~C
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Cool. Thanks! I have been looking up Apocryphal texts as well. There's just something fascinating about old stories; they seem to paint a better picture of the past than simply memorizing facts and figures.
I don't believe the entire bible is fictional but everyone might want to think about this for a minute. An example telephone. Normally at the end of telephone the story passed on is nothing like it sounded or things are added. It is the same with stories that have been passed down. I'm not saying it is wrong, but I am a firm believer that the bible has many fallacy aspects. Even in psychology people who have given eyewitness accounts have been wrong alot of the time. They picture what they think they saw, sometimes it is correct sometimes it is wrong.
In my belief I think people should focus more on worshipping who they worship rather than the bible. This is just an opinion. This may sound far out and many people may ridicule me or be offended, but I believe god is an alien. All an alien is is a foreign being not of this world or intelligence. This would make total sense to me. I swear I am not crazy, but this is a theory that actually seems like a good one.
http://www.progressiveu.org/032913-lupus-uncureable-wait-what
Love comments? I do too!
Actually, I think "alien" is a great way to describe a higher power. I've never heard anyone describe God like that and I really think it's quite creative! At least that way, God doesn't have to be given such humanistic qualities, but rather qualities unfamiliar to humans.
If one would to put a bit more effort in “trying” to upon up his/her sixth sense, frontal lobe or third eye, things between fiction and reality might shift to an understanding there is no such thing as Mr. Right in the sky.
One would also understand time travel is possible, cause without the physical body one can access past and future, although future travel is mostly limited to few individuals while it is mostly not a choice they make for themselves to engage in doing so.
Wondering in the past is mostly down one’s own ancestral blue print while future travel is mostly a situation in which one’s mind joins a host, meaning, the one future (mind) you take place in might in many situations be possibly yourself. The experiences of past and future travel are not to be compared, no need to say,
Experiences like these go way beyond our daily so called “real” realities.
More and more amongst us go through these experiences, but still for now it is one big taboo, cause to many look into the wrong direction (god TV) while all is to be found within, it’s the fear brought upon using our brain which is causing lack of self-awareness to arise from one’s own core.
That core which is light of that source we all share as one,
All form of submission pushes one away from this truth!
The problem all god’s are dealing with now, is scientific knowledge and evolution itself, therefore the egg which has been created around many people’s brains is starting to burst.
How hard some will try to keep you dumb, the light from within is stronger because it holds nothing to be described in terms of power!
Peaking deep into a mirror, what does one see but his physical body, nothing!
To understand the concept of a hologram might freak one out, but then again, there is no reason to fear what is to be found within.
People are scared of real reality, because from childhood on, they have been thought a fake one to believe in, one which they can’t seem to let go of, it’s exactly that fake which brings doubt and confusion build and created around one’s fears!
http://www.loveearth.com/uk/film/
It is scary to try to comprehend something so - how should I put it - abstract, invisible, beyond reality. Sometimes I think that it is fear that drives one toward religion. It's far more terrifying to believe that this is it, that once we die, we're dead maggot food. Religion serves many purposes. One is to scare everyone in to doing good all the time. The thought of suffering in an eternal afterlife is truly terrifying. Another is to believe that we are not walking through this world entirely alone. It's sort of comforting to believe that there is always an invisible being watching out for us, listening to us, carrying us through tough times. Religion can also be a great emotional crutch. Religion can also be an answer to why bad things happen - "all in God's hands" so to speak.
Sometimes I envy those that still have undying faith in things science disproves. I'm not sure why, I do, but perhaps it the strength of their faith and beliefs. Other times I think they are fools.
What drives one to religion is the lack of identity, simply because it is being taken away from the moment you are born, self-realization is the only way to wake up from this entanglement.
Self-realization is to be found in the brain, if one cares to use it in order to question own emotion, one is set on a path to free himself and to get in touch with the real.
Purposes of religion are the very same reasons for all the trauma they bring inside of our lives we live in doubt and fear of knowing what will hit us next!
There is nothing much to comprehend, as I speak now, in time to come you might notice more individuals like myself to claim the very same things to be. Whether you will pay attention to the possibility of it to be something to reach for, you will figure out for yourself.
It is never too late to catch a wave! One might think having missed the train, but it isn’t necessarily so!
The funny thing is that it is the only true reality around, I do understand your reasoning upon all you brought up.
The good part is that there is nothing to fear about trying to tap into the real reality, the only obstacle one will have to face is his oneself!
In order to get in touch with real, one needs to “let go” of the fake real!
It is beyond everything one might think of, but it is in no way abstract nor invisible, the fact is one tapping into the real will see much more, even with eyes shut!
When we die we leave our physical body, we join back the source, there is no such thing as punishment, trauma or hell to be found or awaite us at the source!
There is no such thing as dying, we are and (almost) always will stay eternal, to lose a physical body is necessary because we use it as a tool to enjoy our life in experience and creation. Unfortunately we abuse our bodies, therefore we don’t reach the full potential of what (our body) is meant to provide us with.
The most amazing freedom one can enjoy, is to be found within!
:-)
http://www.loveearth.com/uk/film/