I’m getting kind of sick of being told that god works in mysterious ways. Usually after some horrible tragedy that can’t otherwise be explained by the religious world-view. You know, it’s just something that gets on my nerves. Especially when, in one breath, I’m told that god works in mysterious ways and in the next, I’m told this person has an understanding of god based on reading a two thousand year old book. (Or five thousand, or fifteen hundred. Whatever)
So, let me turn this around a little bit. This is a little thought experiment. All hypothetical, you understand? It has to be since the first assumption necessary to make is completely baseless.
Assumption #1: God Exists
Obviously, this assumption is required for this little experiment, since he certainly can’t function in mysterious ways, let alone any kind of way, if he doesn’t exist. [EDIT] I'm defining god as a perfect entitity. This is a common (if not all-encompassing) belief among the faithful. Therefore, any characteristic of god must be a perfect example of that charcteristic.
The next assumption that I have to make is also a little iffy. There remains no evidence for it, even if number one is true, there are other possibilities, like the deist god. Even people who advocate this sort of god contradict themselves through that thing called religion. But, what can you do?
Assumption #2: God Works in Mysterious Ways
Duh. I don’t think I need to elaborate on that one.
The last assumption is the obvious one. If the others are true, then this one is. No ifs, ands or buts.
Assumption #3: People are Confused by the Mysterious Ways in which God Works
Obvious, no? If people were not confused then it could hardly be said that god was working in mysterious ways. That’s the whole element of mystery. I mean really.
Now, we are coming to the point of this little exercise.
1- God exists
2- He is mysterious
3- This confuses people
Now that I have taken up space repeating what I said a few inches higher up on the page, lets look at the consequences of these givens. If the characteristics of god are perfect, then he must be perfectly mystifying. So, what would be perfectly mystifying? What would be really confusing? What form of bewildering bafflement is worthy of that ultimate enigma? I’m tempted to say that not-existing would be it. That would really throw you off your tracks, now wouldn’t it? But, I’m not going to say that. That contradicts the first assumption.
So, other than that, what would it be? Well, I’d say that the first part of this would be religion. This god person has created all of these different and contradictory religions to worship him. They all claim to be correct. They fight over it. They all try to prove the others wrong. This tragi-comedy of religious wars would be worthy, on its own of some perplexing cosmic baffler we call god. That alone, I would consider worthy, but why not take it another step. If he was truly a real puzzler, he could go even father. Make them all wrong! I mean, why on Earth would he do that? Talk about puzzling. That is truly the ultimate comedy of errors.
It is all good through the premises.
Unfortunately you draw this conclusion:
"If the characteristics of god are perfect, then he must be perfectly mystifying."
This is not a valid conclusion. It is one possibility based on the premises. I am sure there are several more that others will show you, but here is mine.
God is perfect.
Man is not.
God has a vast universal presence.
Man peers out through blurry eyes in one direction for a few feet and misinterprets a good part of the fraction of the things in front of his face that he notices.
This makes the actions of the perfect God that controls all that puny man can see confusing to man because he is unaware of so much.
Man says "god works in mysterious ways."
God denier is sick of this phrase because it means he cannot pin faithful onto a God he can disprove.
OK so the mystery of the truth declines as the mystified learns more. If the mystified were able to learn all he would no longer be mystified. Humans are gaining knowledge, but not all of it. So in a way we are all wrong, and always will be.
I do like that finish, and really enjoyed the blog
I should of added that as a premise. That god is perfect. That is not what I say. That's what the faithful say. The Ontological argument. (Utter nonsence in my opinion, but some people seem to like it.)
As a matter of fact. I will edit my blog to define god. And I'm not tired of it because I cannot pin faithful onto a god I cannot disprove. I am sick of the phrase being used as a justification of a kind god doing or allowing horrible suffering in the world.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
You say that "God is perfect. Man is not."
Genesis 1:26-27,
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
If we were created in the image of "God" then shouldn't we be perfect like "God", especially after eating from the tree of knowledge and all. Either that or "God" isn't as "perfect" as everyone might think. After reading the bible, I would say that if the bible is truly "God Inspired", then "God" is definitely not "perfect".
I don't believe in the bible, but let’s just pretend that we all do for a minute or two. Ok, so "God" works in mysterious ways, right? Those ways are very confusing to us, correct? So, "God" and his ways are confusing and so are the things that we do. I mean, "God" does things that we don't understand and we fight over things (religion) that we don't understand. Sounds like a match made in...you fill in the blank.
I really hate when people don't give enough credit to mankind. You and many others say that "God" is perfect and man is "puny" and that man's eyes are "blurry" compared to "God's". Again, if we were created in his image, then that must mean that "God" is flawed, has blurry vision, puny, etc?
Just a thought.
Tabias-
Is not something I would want to eat
If it was a really good image it might look tempting, but even the best would 'fall short' of the original. Primarily because it would only have some of the qualities (generally visual) of the original. If I made an image of the pizza from bread sauce cheese and carefully placed the toppings as exactly like the original as I could................
I would have a copy, not an image.
God is the truth, or God is perfect are definitions, not characteristics being claimed. If you are talking about some God that is not defined this way as it appears that you are I are not even discussing the same concept. Since I have used this definition I avoid (refuse to) worship of imperfect things no matter how great they may be.
Man is capable of perfection in tiny pieces, and with plenty of help. The best example I can give is how the first few equations George Boole theorized have become a world wide Comunication/trade/education/entertainment/enlightenment and Calculation tool which is still evolving. Every other human trade or art shows the same evolution from primitive forward, but math and logic seem like the best example from my puny view. If you don't like to feel puny weak and ignorant you should probably think about smaller concepts than God perfection and the universe.
"I don't believe in the bible, but let’s just pretend that we all do for a minute or two. Ok, so "God" works in mysterious ways, right? Those ways are very confusing to us, correct? So, "God" and his ways are confusing and so are the things that we do. I mean, "God" does things that we don't understand and we fight over things (religion) that we don't understand."
The bible is an ancient text where some people preserved their teachings about God. If you are looking for a technical manual, or a history, or inspiration you will find a little here that reflect its human authors VIEW of God and their own special place relative to him. If you are looking for a reason to argue you will find it also. Understanding is something that improves with study. You generally have to work at it to improve your understanding. If you are looking for dispute with other people you will achieve your goal. Confusion is where everyone starts unless they do not consider complicated things.
"I don't believe in the bible"
You do believe it exists, they are lying all over. The authority and meaning is an awful lot more complex question. I don't know anyone that understands or follows all the things contained in it. The claim that it is somehow perfect is a separate claim of a subset of believers it is a separate argument from the context here.
"I really hate when people don't give enough credit to mankind."
Oh, how big and bad are we from an interstellar point of view?
I know the answer!
Man created religion.
Damn, I'm so smart.
Wow. That smart. :-)
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
I know. It's because my parents created me and taught me to be this way.
I also know that because man created religion, and man is not infallible, religion is also not infallible. Yay me!
Did your parents create you in their image......
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
No they just had sex.
And then nine months later, my Dad was picking raspberries and my Mom said... well, it's time to go to the hospital. She went into labor, it was messy, and that's how I came to be.
I'm seeking clarification on your point of view.
Do you believe that man created religion or did he also create God?
Some days I rather vaguely believe in some sort of God. Usually not. But I completely and unequivocally rejected all forms of religion long, long ago. In my mind there is a difference between the two. It is possible to believe in God without believing in religion.
In general, on my more normal days, I believe that God would not exist if man did not exist..
Mostly just religion.
I haven't made up my mind on a higher being or energy source quite yet. I definitely think that "God" as most people think of "Him" is a man-made creation. Humans are so awkward, why would anyone want to reproduce themselves in such a way?
As a premise the opposition just would have said it didn't apply to their God.
The debate rages endlessly.
I don't think there are many, if any, people on this site of an Abrahamic faith who would not claim that their god is perfect. Or who hasn't in the past.
"The debate rages endlessly."
Sounds good to me.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Then, I take it that you don't like the line in the movie, "Steel Magnolias" when one of the characters says, "The Lord works in mysterious ways"?
Read my blog!
Well, I haven't seen Steel Magnolias. However, I wouldn't necessarily dislike the line. I think that the play Les Miserables is one of the most powerful shows I have ever seen (except the crappy revival) and one of the most powerful lines is "Look down, look down, Sweet Jesus doesn't care." You don't have to think that something is true to appreciate it in an artistic sense.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Open your eyes, and try to find the answer
My eyes are never closed.
Except when I'm asleep, or blinking, or they hurt or are, for some other reason, closed.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
I have to admit, I was stumped by this experiment. My brain was not able to fully comprehend the POV. But I will say that I dont believe God to be very confusing or mystifying. As a matter of fact in MY life he has been pretty clear. I think our level of comprehension just isnt up to par with the big guys level of output.
So you're saying that it isn't confusing that an all powerful benevolent deity either allowed or caused hurricane Katrina?
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
When you talk dirty like that, it reminds me of the archbishop of Canterbury.
He tortured himself for months over what was God's message when he sent Hurricane Katrine.
*sigh*
Yeah. Well, when you're an Archbishop of Canterbury, there are just some things that you have to torture yourself over.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
it isnt confusing to me because i understand (from what i've learned from MY faith) why bad things happen and are allowed. when god created eden it was to be paradise, we were never to experience bad or evil, but because adam and eve sinned they brought those things upon us. so because of inherent sin we have to deal with the world and the problems of it. it isnt fair but we did it to ourselves
So, it is not at all confusing that an omnipotant, benevolent diety is punishing us for the sins of Adam and Eve? And, it is also not confusing that god created all of this evidence that contradicts that story?
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
You must have it all figured out then. Do you believe that God causes natural disasters? If so, then please explain why God does it. Is "he" mad at us? Is "he" just playing around because "he's" bored? What? Some say that Hurricane Katrina was God's wrath on our country, but for what? If a hurricane should've hit anywhere, it should've hit Washington D.C. not the Gulf Coast. Mysterious?
What say you?
Tabias-
If God is perfectly mystifiying, then how would man know that God was confusing him? Wouldn't the ultimate mystery, end all be all, most confusing thing possible, be for God to lie perfectly to us? He tells us such fantastic, believable lies and then knows that we'll be confused (He's confusing) and then watches the battles play out. No one is right. no one is wrong. And God, being perfectly humorous, laughs as He perfectly sits atop His perfect throne. God has the greatest sense of humor, you know.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
Another thought process:
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
I think so......
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
haha, I love the diagram
Everything is better with pictures. Seriously. You can't understand DNA without pictures. Most bibles are now deviod of pictures (another sign that god is mean and wants man to be in the dark). You cannot understand what I am saying unless I use pictures.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
That just goes even further to show that I'm right. My copy of the Torah does, in fact, have pictures in it.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
All hail YAWH!
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
Yeah, you better! Especially you- you blaspheming pastafarian!
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
That's what I said except for the fact that man knows, or suspects, that god works in mysterious ways. I think that that admission has to be made for a lot of the confusion to play itself out. Think about it. You have all of these people who 'know' that god works in mysterious ways, but think that they have it right. Isn't it just beautiful?
"God has the greatest sense of humor, you know." One might almost say that he has a perfect sense of humor.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Excuse me while I get in my daily does of blasphemy.
This is how it REALLY went with Katrina.
Man builds bad levy.
Experts realize this.
God tells some peeps, "Hey, dudes, your levy's gonna break, fix it."
Peeps tell people, experts tell people.
Stupid people ignore them.
Levy breaks.
People say, "WHY, GOD, WHY?" and "God works in mysterious ways."
God is all like, "Why are all of you looking at me?"
P.S.: the lesson was to learn how to build levies right
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"Your comment doesn't make sense. Whats this about Paris hilton? What are you talking about? You don't make sense." - alenka
My Blog.
LMAO I love that!
God didn't need to say anything: City below sea-level, in the middle of hurricane country...Hmm...It'll never flood.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
City below sea level- in bad shape. NEtherlands below sea level-fine. It must be that god is punishing them for smoking pot and letting homosexuals marry. He wants them to live longer, happier lives in their horrid swill pit.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Maybe God just likes dikes better?
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
Maybe.
....I apologize for what I'm about to type, but I can't help it.
I don't find that hard to believe. What guy doesn't? :-( Sorry. I just have to apologize again.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
As a straight woman, I am wholeheartedly offended.
; )
Sorry.. :-) I just couldn't help myself.....
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
You should be! That was an offensive comment!
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
...It's my warped sense of humor. That's what happens when you watch too much family guy. :-(
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
This was a very entertaining blog post!
I am a little confused though. In the very beginning, you show your annoyance with the phrase "god works in mysterious ways", yet you go on to prove it. Does this mean that even though you are sick of hearing the phrase, you still believe it to be true? Nothing wrong with that, but it seemed a little contradictory.
Actually, I'm an atheist, so it's hard for me to believe that that is true. I was saying with this blog that people who claim that god works in mysterious ways often claim to know at least something of what he was saying. And that, I think, is contradictory and hypocritical.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
I think the use of the phrase about God working in mysterious ways is particularly entertaining when it used to refer to God's healing power.
Some diseases have nearly a 100% cure rate. Other diseases have nearly a 100% non-cure rate. Many fall somewher in between with quite a few being on the dire end of things.
Whenever somebody gets well from one of these dire diseases God gets the credit and it is described as a miracle and often we hear about the power of prayer. But when the opposite happens and the worst comes to pass, they roll out the old standby: God works in mysterious ways.
Too my knowlege, nobody has ever been cured of an amputation. I know it happens with certain lower level animals but I have never heard of a human being growing a new leg. I bet that over the milleniums lots of very spiritually pure, good, deserving and god-fearing people have had amputations . And I bet they have prayed feverently and mightily. But to my knowledge God has never once stepped in and cured an amputee. I find that mysterious.
I LOVE IT!
You're joking right?
Well, in case you aren't...
You find it mysterious that something physically impossible has never happened! What? Human limbs can't grow back. We have not evolved that ability. The fact, therefore, that it never happened is not at all mysterious.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
To me it is a joke.
But if I had faith in an ALL POWERFUL God, it would be a mystery why God sometimes (not too often) used that awesome power to cure lung cancer but never in the course of human history did he see fit to use that infinite power to grow a new limb.
Infinite power is a LOT of power and a little thing like replacing a limb should not be much if you have the power to create the universe. Why does God sometimes answer the prayers of people who are ill but never answer the prayers of a person who wants a new limb?
It is a mystery that would cause me to question my faith.
Ah, I understand. That makes sense. The answer, of course, is that god works in mysterious ways. :-)
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Of course, why didn't I think of that answer. *smacks head*
I also work in mysterious ways, and have infinite powers because I am WOMAN.
Do you worship me now? Huh, do ya?
[Pats Katie on the top of her infinitely powerful head]
"Do you worship me now? Huh, do ya?"
Obviously.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, i fear no evil. 8-}
You better start fearing! X-([
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"It is a mystery that would cause me to question my faith."
How could any guess about faith that a person with none makes be anything but a joke?
There seem to be more than enough rationalizations that cause you to 'question' your faith.
God grew all of the limbs that have ever existed. The way he grew them is exactly as they are. They can manipulate physical objects, yet they can be damaged by those same objects. Amputated limbs growing back would also not convince you. You would just say that it evolved that way.
It would be equally valid to say that he should make it rain once each day just before dawn for optimum plant growth, and since he doesn't the 'mystery would make you question him.
The champions of rational belief seem more like people that just want to do whatever they feel like when you represent them.
I have no faith and I am definately a champion of a rational belief system.
But I do not believe that people should be able to: "that just want to do whatever they feel like when you represent them." That sentence is a little hard to decrypt but I think you are saying something along the lines of: "If it feels good, do it". I'm very much of a law and order and civil society type. I think society should have social mores and standards and that they should be enforced. I'm actually pretty comfortable with the standards that have eminated from the Judeo/Christian tradition.
While I don't have any faith, I envy those who do because rather than thinking about the quality and morality of their actions they can simply be guided by their religion. Even though I lack faith it does not mean that I don't try to be a good person. Because I don't have a religious faith to guide me, I have to rationally think about my behavior and decide about its impact on family, community, country and world. If you read my posts on other threads you might not agree that I am correct but you would almost have to agree that I put a lot of thought into my positions.
I'm sorry you took offense at my post. It was intended as a statement of my beliefs (and none of us knows the truth as a certainty) rather than an attack on your beliefs. As you stated, it is impossible for a person without faith to find faith as anything but funny. I started thinking about the amputee and many similar questions like "why does God allow war?" when I was about 5 years old and faith just never worked out for me because I never got a decent answer. But I don't mean to belittle your faith and you are free to enjoy it. I recognize that America was founded by Christians and that almost everything that is good about America eminates from Christian (particularly protestant) beliefs and I think America has gotten worse as we have slowly abandoned being guided by those beliefs. I don't think religion or faith is a bad thing and I'm glad you are free to enjoy yours.
Have a Merry Christmas!
I also have no faith in organized religion.
Mostly because I view organized religion as the easy way out, and people use it as a crutch so they don't have to think for themselves. It doesn't have to be this way; but over time it's become this way and people just get lulled into complacency and end up not questioning religious leaders to the point of ridiculousness.
"I'm sorry you took offense at my post."
Not so much the individual post as the thread.
Thousands of "why doesn't God..." questions are just as valid, and invalid. They all play to the presumption that God should work for man, and it is in fact the other way arround.
I am glad that you want to be rational. Accepting how little we know is the first step toward that. Which necessarilly means admitting that God and the natural laws of the universe are MYSTERIOUS.
Jesus said the most important commandment was "Love the lord your God with all your heart and all your might." The question is who is God? The most basic of definitions is that he is the creator and controller of the universe. In other words The Truth (exactly equal to all of the natural laws collectively). This is just a definition, and accepting any personality or volition to be present within the universal Truth is the step that requires faith. Prayer is then possible, and your personal experience from there might allow a tiny bit of faith to grow larger.
So semantically Jesus said 'love the truth.'
http://www.progressiveu.org/154720-love-the-truth
Even a secular perspective can get you that far. A leap of faith might be neccessary to trust that the truth is good, but hating or denying the truth is so wrong it should be obvious. I'm working on a more step-by-step expansion of this interpretation, but It isn't quite ready. I'll post it when it is.
It just seems so narrow minded to make fun of other peoples beliefs that I was feeling frustrated reading it. Secularism isn't so bad, as long as they don't lose the advanced morality that came from Christ and many others, which allows them the freedom to be secular. It has taken the Christians 2,000 years to begin to follow those teachings well enough to be as tollerent as we are today, and there is plenty of room for improvement.
You forget that we make fun of ourselves as well. What is life without a little bit of humor? Maybe you should try it sometime.
some gay jokes?
or a racist joke or two?
Some very funny humor is frustrating or even enraging to the target.
Fun to joke, not fun to be the butt of a joke. I like humor more than political correctness, and if enraged responces were the only result of that type humor I might even take the pro off-color joke side. As it is where racism and bigotry is encouraged, and the anger created could create violent action so I have to admit that such humor should be restrained in public forums.
Just tell your nigger joke to your white racist buddies and there is no harm. They are the ones that will laugh the hardest anyway.
I've got some things to say to you that wouldn't be appropriate for a family website.
But anyone that has read my blogs, and my comments, knows that I am neither racist nor homophobic. Unlike what the prominent manuscript your religion is based on.
Didn't anybody tell you, history implies that Jesus was black? Bet that makes you pretty angry, doesn't it? Did you forget that gays are supposed to be murdered, according to your God? Because my beliefs dictate they be treated with the same dignity and respect, and no one should be a slave (which the 10 commandments tend to disagree with).
Don't go there with your self-righteous bullshit, Bible Thumper.
"I am neither racist nor homophobic."
Just religiously bigoted then? Actually I don't think you are any of the three, the question was intended to show equivalence of these three types of ignorance and intollerence. I'm glad you were offended.
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"Didn't anybody tell you, history implies that Jesus was black?"
Does your browser show the profile picture I use? I think that semitic people of his era were among the most racially diverse on the planet due to the geography as a cross roads of three continents. It is also why they had such advanced ideas and science compared to more isolated areas.
---
"Did you forget that gays are supposed to be murdered, according to your God?"
Please tell me more about what I BELIEVE or I won't know. To quote some one "How dare you presume..."
---
"self-righteous"
Yes you are, but I forgive you. That post was like a gift. I could not have explained better why jokes ridiculing other people were so wrong without your help thank you.
To be fair, I do have a (really amazingly, really just awful and terrible) gay joke somewhere. It's not funny. I just couldn't help myself. The set up was perfect....
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't know who could have expected you to pass on it.
It was funny, and I didn't hear any objection from the wronged parties.
Well said. Still, I feel guilty. Puns are all I've got, basically, in the humor department. Sometimes they're too horrible to be unleashed on the world. Hard for me to tell, though. I guess it's good to know that at least one person found it funny....:-(
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Accepting how little we know does not at all necessarily mean admitting that God is mysterious. That is a logical leap that requires faith not reason.
I would accept the statement if it were rephrased:
Accepting how little we know is the first step toward that. Which necessarily means admitting that the Universe and the natural laws of the universe are MYSTERIOUS and that includes the possibility that there might be a God.
The realm of human knowledge is expanding rapidly. About 99% of all human knowledge was discovered in the last 100 years and the pace of discovery is if anything, quickening. Astrophysicists are learning amazing stuff and so are the quantum physicists. Amazingly, from my layman's understanding the two branches of physics are learning almost the same thing with Atoms and smaller particles in many ways behaving a lot like tiny universes and being reflective of what the people studying the universe are learning on a much larger scale. I have confidence that we are going to solve many of those mysteries in the coming years.
But the existence (or not) of God may always remain a mystery. I don't understand why he doesn't unequivocably reveal himself (herself).
Your rephrasing is perfectly acceptable to me.
Yes, we live in exciting times with regard to the advacement of knowledge. The possibilities are endless. Even replacement limbs for amputees doesn't seem too much to expect in the forseeable future.
Rational belief systems that include better morality would be nice as well. Jesus was an advancement on Judaism, Judaism was an advancement of polytheism, which advanced from elemental worship...... The understanding of man is evolving. Like evolution most mutations (new theories, or sects) fail. None of the mutations would survive without the evolved life it is hosted within. New BETTER philosophies may also benefit from a firm foundation.
People say "God works in mysterious ways" because we cannot completely understand why He does what he does or how he does it. God is to man as man is to dog. A dog cannot comprehend the idea that man can create things, whereas a dog cannot be creative. A dog is unable to grasp the fact that humans know more, are able to do more, and know more about the dogs life and future than the dog itself.
So, the only way that we (having dog minds compared to the Lord) can understand our Masters ways is if we ask Him oursevles. And the only way we can ask Him and get a response is if we are close to Him--if we seek His face and press in to His fullness.
Ah yes, the skeptics are all going to hell argument as I like to call it. In order to receive evidence for god's existence, I have to believe in god. Yet, in order for me to believe in god, I want evidence. See the problem. The three obvious conclusions. 1, god doesn't exist. 2, god doesn't care. 3, god wants all skeptical people to go to hell.
"A dog cannot comprehend the idea that man can create things, whereas a dog cannot be creative."
My dogs understand that I can create things, in a way. How do they know that? They can see me do it. I can't see god.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
Well, I am a Christian.
Have you ever read Blue Like Jazz? What you wrote about reminds me of a chapter in the book.
It's on how you can't be a believer without being a mystic. And that rational people miss out. It's on how people try to put everything down into science and math because humans are afraid to not know what they don't know. But God wants people to have fear because fear helps you have faith. And faith ultimately is trust. Trusting that God is out there and that if you just let go of your rationality, he'll show himself to you in personal ways that you can't explain to others.
Just some input on another side of your thoughts and opinions.
"Have you ever read Blue Like Jazz? What you wrote about reminds me of a chapter in the book."
Nope. And I probably won't for a while. I'm already wading through the quagmire of nonsense that is Lee Strobel's "The Case For Christ".
But I shall remember the name. (It's on my list after the Behe book and Mere Christianity)
"It's on how you can't be a believer without being a mystic."
Naturally. Not believing in the supernatural does put a crimp on my god worshiping! lol.
"And that rational people miss out."
Having been religious in the past, I'd suggest the author shouldn't generalize.
"It's on how people try to put everything down into science and math because humans are afraid to not know what they don't know."
I'd be happy to know that there was a benevolent figure watching over me who will welcome me to an eternity of paradise after my death. However, since that seems highly unlikely to me, I won't lose sleep over it.
"But God wants people to have fear because fear helps you have faith. And faith ultimately is trust. Trusting that God is out there and that if you just let go of your rationality, he'll show himself to you in personal ways that you can't explain to others."
This is what I call the "God wants skeptics to go to hell argument". Why? Because it tells us that in order to get evidence to believe in something, we must believe in it already. However, I am of the group of people who wants evidence prior to belief. Which is the problem. I could never honestly believe in a god without evidence.
"Just some input on another side of your thoughts and opinions."
Glad to have 'em.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
Donald Miller (the author of the book) does tend to generalize and categorize people a bit. He's also very blunt. But he does have some good points.
What religion were you affiliated with before?
and on the "God wants skeptics to go to hell argument". I don't view it in that way. I just think to God, being skeptical means you're afraid. Afraid of what? Afraid for yourself. And unwilling. Unwilling to step into something when you just want to have freedom. Freedom from what? Freedom from the confinements of christianity.
But Christianity, for me, isn't confining me. I feel like, I'm able to give up things through him. Prevent myself from indulging (drugs, alcohal, sex) because of my relationship with God. And I just know. That even though I'm contaminated by my human desires and sinful actions, that God still accepts me.There's just so many personal ways that God has shown himself to me.
Which is weird. Because I used to be a HUGE skeptic. And I would hate people telling me religious things. Like "God loves you. God forgives everyone. He wants you in heaven. blahblah." But eventually I felt like he was reaching out to me through people and experiences. Like he was prodding me or something.
I just had to be fully willing to take the first step.
And like, for me, I don't limit myself. I do keep my mind open to what other people believe. I "go with the flow" but have a secure foundation.
"What religion were you affiliated with before?"
Judaism.
"I just think to God, being skeptical means you're afraid. Afraid of what? Afraid for yourself. And unwilling. Unwilling to step into something when you just want to have freedom. Freedom from what? Freedom from the confinements of christianity."
I'm not afraid of god. If he exists, what would fear mean anyway. There are plenty of things I'm more afraid of than Christianity that I accept as true. Why? I have no reason to doubt the existence of bombs or scorpions (hate 'em) or criminals. God? I ain't seen nuffin o' him!
"Prevent myself from indulging (drugs, alcohal, sex) because of my relationship with God."
Drugs- dumb
Sex- while not neccesarily till marriage, certainly not something I believe in engaging in willy-nilly.
alcohol- Passover
"That even though I'm contaminated by my human desires and sinful actions, that God still accepts me."
I don't feel unaccepted. My peers (other people) accept me for all of my faults. That's good enough for me. I don't have a desire for the approval of some higher being.
"Like he was prodding me or something."
I shall consider myself unprodded
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
obviously very well thought out in what you believe in/don't believe in.
I don't have much else to say. I said that I have a secure foundation in what I believe in; you do too.
Thanks for the discussion!
p.s. I like your humor and sarcasm. They make me laugh.
"p.s. I like your humor and sarcasm. They make me laugh."
good to know. I've been known to offend.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
You should add to your list of books to read, "Letters from Earth," by the legendary Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens). In fact, you should move this up to your next book to read... because it totally rocks.
It was amazing. Satire and Sarcasm at its best.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
My Creative Writing
lol. I usually try and read a religious and non-religious book at the same time.
I'm also currently reading a collection of essays about the vacuity of ID theory. That's why I've got to read the Behe book soon.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I'm about to pick up The Obilisk Trilogy by Henry Miller. Then I've got three books on faith and how science proves faith to burn though.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
My Creative Writing
What's the Obelisk Trilogy?
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
A book. Actually, three books. :-)) It's basically sex on paper. And I'm not talking about pleasure, I'm talking about sex.
"I'm fucking you...so you'll stay fucked." "One cunt in a million." It goes on to be rather graphic...lol
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
My Creative Writing
I see...
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
Badass book, that took me awhile to wade through but when I did, I laughed for weeks when I thought about it.