Burning Flags

SmellyCat-13's picture
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For the opinions I’ve had and voiced, and for the statements I have made, I have been called many things. Among the things I have been called: unpatriotic and un-American. While this gets under my skin, as I’m sure it would almost anyone, the most upsetting incident was when I was told that if I didn’t agree with the government’s policies I, and others like me, need to just get out of the U.S.

Comments and attitudes like this are all too rampant in America, especially nowadays. It’s a real shame, because this country was built on principals which include letting every individual voice their opinions, even if they are misinformed, undereducated, or their oppinions are unfounded. I have been in the wrong a number of times – I will willingly admit that. But even if someone is the wrong, about anything, under no circumstances is such criticism necessary or even appropriate. America’s history has designed this country to be one of free-thinking and allowance of individual opinion, but this is not what I, and others like me, have encountered. Not only is it very hurtful to hear things like this, it also makes people very uncomfortable visiting places where they know they might be such criticized again – a friends house, for example, or even a site such a this.

Though it happened just over two years ago, that experience of being told to move if I didn’t agree with American policy still lingers in my mind. Usually it stays in the back, out of sight and out of thought, but still pops forward to the front on occasion, usually completely at random.

I was at a party one of my friends used to throw at the end of every school year, where we burned a fair portion of our left over homework and made a show of throwing the rest into a massive, green recycling bin. I honestly don’t know how we got onto the topic of politics, and I completely understand where the people in my company would disagree with me, but I still cannot understand why my friend’s mother would feel the need to tell me to leave America for my opinion.

Somehow, we had gotten onto the topic of an amendment that would make the burning of American flags illegal. Perhaps one of the guy who were there, friends of our hosts older brother, mentioned it and I, not being very heavily involved in the conversation between my friends and having taken an interest in this topic, got involved in that conversation. I said something along the lines of, “I don’t think that they should make it illegal to burn the flag – unless the flames somehow cause property damage, the people burning it aren’t hurting anyone, and they’re expressing their opinion about something in doing so.”

As should have been expected, this was met with fierce and very angry opposition. I really can’t say why I didn’t expect this then, but I didn’t. I certainty expect it now, and wont be surprised if I get some flaming comments on my opinion of this subject.

I tried to defend myself, and at the moment wasn’t entirely sure what to say. I wasn’t then and still am not used to be so viciously opposed, to the point that it feels like I am being verbally attacked. The conversation behind me, in which the rest of my friends were participating, grew quiet as my friend’s mother’s voice got louder and louder. It got even quieter as they realized that her every growing words were aimed at me, sitting in the grass beside the camp fire a couple of feet from her, suddenly seeming to tower in her lawn chair, shadowy against the setting sun.

Stumbling stupidly over my words, I really did try: “The flag is just a symbol for America, though. It’s not actually hurting America or American people…” She cut me off, saying that there is no excuse for burning the American flag. It is, after all, a symbol of our country, what it stands for, and our unity as a nation. Well…as far as that argument goes, I would like to say the following: we are not very unified anymore, now are we? But that’s an entirely different subject.

Once again, I tried to stress that it is just that: a symbol. It isn’t the World Trade Center and they aren’t killing many, many innocent people. They’re just burning a symbol, trying to express their dissatisfaction with what it represents and –

But that is immature, childish, and crude. It is inappropriate and should not be allowed, and if they disagree so much with American policies and ways of life, they should just get out of the country. For that matter, if I support them burning the flag, I should just go, too.

Deeply upset as I was, I tried to move away from her, to dive back into conversation with my friends, which had been started back up by one of the girls who didn’t want everyone staring at us as they were. She kept throwing her words after me, though, just not letting it go until I got up and went inside, my eyes stinging with embarrassment and shame at having been yelled at so viciously in front of all my friends, and not even by own mother. I left her and everyone else around the fire in the deepening darkness to cut off her loud voice, saying that I was thirsty, and did anyone else want some Sprite?

My friend came in a few moments later to find me lingering around the refrigerator, not having even gotten out a soda yet. I didn’t want to go back outside for fear of the yelling starting back up. “I’m sorry about my mom,” my friend told me. “When she gets started she doesn’t want to stop.”

“Yeah, I noticed.”

Unfortunately, I cannot locate all the research I had found previously on the amendment and I recall it taking almost a week to compile and verify all my research – if anyone reading this has any information on the amendment, please share it. I initially did the research after the argument happened, which I will recount in a moment, and I wrote an article on the amendment stating my opinion and reasoning for it. Unfortunately, I don’t seem to have a copy of that article any longer, either. Luckily for me, my opinion on the matter isn’t based in the wording of the amendment. What it is based on is the idea of symbolic speech.

Symbolic speech is expression through action rather than words. Symbolic speech, as an expression, should then be protected under the first amendment. This, anyway, is my line of thinking. I strongly believe this, and this is what I was trying to convey to my friend’s mom. This is also what earned me the stinging remark described above. It should be noted that I do not agree with burning flags, I do think that it is a childish way to express a thought or feeling that can very easily be depicted in art or described through writing and speeches, and I would never burn an American flag. I wouldn’t burn a flag not because I hold the flag to any significant value, because I do not. I just feel that my opinions are better expressed elsewhere and that burning a flag would be a waste of my time. But, that does not mean that I feel that anyone should restrict the people who want to express their feelings on “what America stands for” through the burning of flags should be punished for doing so. Like I said, it is a symbol and symbols are constantly employed to express something, whether it’s through the building of, depicting of, or destruction of said symbol. The flag, in my opinion, should be no different. My feelings on this are similar to my feelings of abortion: I do not think that is right and would never have an abortion myself, but it is not my place to tell another woman that she can’t have one.

Further more, differences of oppinion is what progress is based on. If everyone shared the same ideas, the same thoughts and views on everything, very little to no progress would ever be made. Even worse a scenario is a world where people did have differing thoughts and opions, and were to afraid to share them. In that world, society would forever remain stagnent. This is why it is vital to form your own opinions and express them, whether it be through a blog such as this, or even burning a flag to make your point. There is no reason to supress speech, symbolic or otherwise, because the opinion being expressed is in opposition with yours. In fact, there is every reason to do exactly the opposite and encourage free thinking and free expression.

Hopefully I have expressed everything that I wanted to express and I have expressed it well and in such a way that is understandable to others, not only myself.

In conclusion, I want to encourage anyone who has an opinion to express it, whether it fall in with the societal norm or not. Furthermore, everyone who has an opinion has the right to feel emotionally, mentally, and physically safe to express it. If someone disagrees, they, too, have the right to express that, and they should, but there is no need to try to hurt someone in doing so.

I just joined this site, honestly for the scholarship thing. However, I saw your blog with the title of burning the flag and it caught my attenion. I know several military personnel and retired military. Everytime people object to the burning of the flag they get a laugh out of it. People seem unaware that the only proper way to retire a flag is to burn it. So you have a really valid point and it isn't unamerican in the least.

SmellyCat-13's picture

Oh, wow - I knew that that's how you retired a flag, but that hadn't even crossed my mind. Huh. Thanks for reminding me!

Oh - by the by, I just joined for the scholarship, too. ;)

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

Blue, there is a difference between retiring the flag by buring as opposed to burining it out of hate. You have to be joking if you cannot distinguish between the two.

The irony of buring the American flag out of protest is too hilarious really. I have problems with our president but I should thank the flag and what it represents that I get to voice these opinions.
Burning the flag is unpatriotic.

SmellyCat-13's picture

Yes, and many people do thank the flag and what it represents. The point I was trying to get at in the blog is that some people do burn the flag as a form of protest, whether it be protesting what the flag actually symbolizes or perhaps trying to express that what the flag represents no longer exists, that it has been destroyed. As I said, I don't agree with burning the flag, either, but I wouldn't call it unpatriotic because it is a form of expression, and expression in and of itself is patriotic, since that is one of the big things that America was founded on. I also wouldn't call burning the flag unpatriotic because it then creates an environment in which people with opinions which may rub others the wrong way feel uncomfortable expressing those opinions because someone may verbally attack them in such a way as calling them un-American or unpatriotic.

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

What is the point of patriotism if it requires us to abhor the very principles in which that patriotism is supposed to be founded? As the Supreme Court stated in the decision of UNITED STATES v. EICHMAN, 496 U.S. 310 (1990)...

We are aware that desecration of the flag is deeply offensive to many... If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable... Punishing desecration of the flag dilutes the very freedom that makes this emblem so revered, and worth revering.

percivale

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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.

SmellyCat-13's picture

Oh...that is very interesting. Thank you for that link! I hadn't actually heard of this case before...

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Whenever I see someone burning an American Flag, I get a intense burning sensation in the pit of my stomach and have an urge to go over and stomp the $#!+ out of whomever is doing it. But, because I believe in what that Flag stands for, I don't do it. Only @$$#*!3$ burn flags, but in America, even @$$#*!3$ have rights.

percivale

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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.

SmellyCat-13's picture

Hm...well...that was kind of interesting. I don't have such a violent reaction to seeing people burning flags - I honestly don't have too much of a reaction, just kind of an eye-roll if anything.

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...with the fact that my father died in military service, when I was very young. It is completely irrational, I know.

percivale

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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.

SmellyCat-13's picture

I'm so sorry to hear that.

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

Yes, I see. The act of burning it represents extremism as it is and can easily rub people the wrong way. It represents hate and if that is playing the opressor's own game really.

SmellyCat-13's picture

Eh...I don't really think it represents extremism. The way it is so often portrayed would, of course, lead to such an association, so that connection makes sense, but it's not true for all cases, though it is for some.

Now, I'm not trying to be mean or anything...I'm just not entirely sure I understand your last sentance. I think the point you're getting at is that burning the flag is sinking to the level of the person and/or people/government that your are opposed to, but I just want to be sure before I reply. So, please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

chillbill's picture

Your friends mom had an opinion and expressed it. Even if she screamed that opinion at you it might have offended you less than burning a flag offends her.

"everyone who has an opinion has the right to feel emotionally, mentally, and physically safe to express it."

Not a chance. The right to express your opinion guarantees everyone elses right to disagree as well. That disagreement is almost sure to hurt someone emotionally and mentally. Do that strongly and to the wrong person and your physical saftey is going to find the first amendment a little too thin as well.

A fact is always better than an ideal

SmellyCat-13's picture

No, I do agree that she had every right to disagree with me and to express that opinion. My point is that I think people should so in a kinder fashion. If she hadn't yelled and been nasty about it, it wouldn't have even been an issue, honestly. I have a lot of friends who disagree with me over much more serious things than burning flags, but since they don't so viciously judge me and say things to such an extent as "if you don't like it then leave" it never becomes an issue. I've had many, many friendly conversations with people on such topics in which neither party is offended or hurt in any way because we remain civil about it, even if we're on completely opposite ends of the spectrum as far as our opinions on the matter go.

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

I just want to say this before I make any other comments. I have friends and family who have fought over in Iraq and some who are headed there. I've seen first hand the sacrifice they've made so we can even discuss this issue.

Let me pick my words carefully. I know that there is a far cry from the ceremonial retirement of the flag and the descecration of it. I never want to jump to a conclusion about another individual in this area. I care more about wanting to know why you are burning the flag than throwing around the concept of being unamerican and unpatriotic. Certainly I would perfer people not burn the flag my loved ones are fighting for and sacrificing for. However let's take the time to listen to the why and not jump down someone's throat.

SmellyCat-13's picture

Well, luckily the main point of the blog is actually taking time to listen to other people's arguments and discussing things civilly, so I'm glad that you want to do that. :) I concentrated on the subject of burning flags in this blog because in voicing my opinion on the subject I was met with one of the more hurtful comments I can really remember. It was really just something that bothered me, and still bothers me. Now...to be quite honest I'm really tired at the moment, so I'm trying really hard to make this make sense. I, personally, have never burned a flag and I don't know anyone who has. I don't really think it's a good way to express something, but it is a form of expression and I think that as such it falls under the definition of symbolic speech, which is protected by the first amendment. But really, the idea behind the blog was that people should not be called such things as unpatriotic and un-American for voicing an opinion that is in contrast with that of the general public. I really hope I am making sense...This was just an example of such a case that I was personally involved in, though it had nothing to do with actually lighting a flag on fire.

I hope I was able to explain well enough...if I'm unclear, please ask me to clarify the points that are...fuzzy.

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

I just want to say this before I make any other comments. I have friends and family who have fought over in Iraq and some who are headed there. I've seen first hand the sacrifice they've made so we can even discuss this issue.

Let me pick my words carefully. I know that there is a far cry from the ceremonial retirement of the flag and the descecration of it. I never want to jump to a conclusion about another individual in this area. I care more about wanting to know why you are burning the flag than throwing around the concept of being unamerican and unpatriotic. Certainly I would perfer people not burn the flag my loved ones are fighting for and sacrificing for. However let's take the time to listen to the why and not jump down someone's throat.

asmaw's picture

my own parents have PASSIONATELY told me to remain quite and not voice my opinions in front of people who I don't know very well and don't know me very well...they are actually more fearful because I am not a US citizen ( everyone in my family was able to get citizenship but since I am older than 18, i have to apply independently of my parents)
and regardless..because we are immigrants, my mom and dad...live in constant fear of what they should say and talk about or just remain quiet on, mostly their sentiments are just anti Bush but they don't even like talking about politics outside of home...

I don't tell my family about things I discuss in classes such as sociology (about race/immigration/ethnicity/gender and religion)
they think I should shut up for my own good and ALL i ever think is how sad that it is...I thought I left behind a country where free speech got you put in jail....but it seems that it is the same here (just not so outright, but subtly, i have seen that this is America too)

"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight

SmellyCat-13's picture

I am so sorry - that is terrible. I hope that you're able to voice things, even though your parents aren't comfortable doing so. Expression is such a vital thing to being human, it's a shame that there are so many people who aren't aloud to express themselves. I hope things are able to work themselves out and you and your parents are able to feel more comfortable speaking your minds.

If you don't mind my asking, where do you originally come from? And how is the citizenship thing going? I hope it's going well!

Peace
Tahni

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"Tell me - if no one ever hears what you say, then why don't you shout it?" -- Floater

asmaw's picture

I should apply for citizenship because i am eligible but there is money involved (about 400 dollars) and filling out about 10 pages :(

anyways....it's not that bad in pakistan but actually the political condition is HORRIBLE...well i blogged about it
http://www.progressiveu.org/201348-pakistan-my-own-biased-perspective
..we have too much going on over there these days and I am actually very upset about it all... I don't even listen to pakistani news anymore...ignorance really is bliss

"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight

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