I'm sure some will agree and some will hate on me for this, that's fine, everyone has their opinion.
I remember when I lived in California there were so many illegal immigrants, it was ridiculous and that was 3 years ago. I'm sure it's increased dramatically since then. I had an interview at a company, I'm not going to say the name, but they wouldn't hire me because I didn't know Spanish! I'm sorry but I beleive that if you are going to come to the USA and live here you need to speak English. We should't have to learn Spanish just because there are so many illegal immigrants as well as non English speaking people here. Now I am hearing about jobs even paying more if you know Spanish.. I just think it's wrong for them to come here and expect us to know their language when we were here first. just my personal opinion.
As far as the illegal immigrants working under the table, that's ridiculous too. It is cutting down on jobs for the Americans. Go back to Mexico and come to the US the right way. Get a job here the right way and pay taxes just like we do!
OK so I wrote part 2 to this, please read it before posting any further comments to this blog, thanks.
i totally agree. and honestly if someone disagrees with you then they have never been in touch with them... they stare too
they do... thanks :)
Hi.
I am an illegal immigrant. Spanish is my mother tongue and I love every minute I speak it; for me, it is the finest language in the world and a God-given gift, and incredible cultural patrimony that even the humblest Mexican laborer has over, say, any English-only speaking person.
That's only so you know where I came from. Now to your posting.
I agree with much of what you said. If people invaded my country and created a demographic situation in which my cultural heritage suddenly found itself in disadvantage, I would be upset too. If it is of any consolation to you, this has been happening since the beginning of humanity. If it is of any further consolation to you, English-speaking people (American and otherwise) were and are overwhelmingly on the enculturating (invading, winning) side.
It seems to me your frustration comes from putting 3 subjects in the same bag:
- anger at illegal immigration
- lack of assimilation
- work discrimination
You are right to be upset against illegal immigration. As an undocumented worker myself, I wish your country's immigration laws were a little less Kafkian, but I have no real grounds to complain. I have to give this one to you.
Cultural change is a flux. You can legislate all you want, make life harder for people of other cultural extractions (including language), regulate migratory flux, design cultural policies, etc. But if people in California want to speak Spanish, they will. There is nothing inherent, say, in the chemical composition of the Californian soil that dictates that English will be the last language ever spoken there.
You are not totally correct in linking this ti the illegal immigration problem. If you are from California you must know that parts of SoCal (Chula Vista, San Ysidro) are practically Mexico in terms of language, but their population is almost 100% American. (For some reason, we mojados prefer to jump directly to L.A. :) )
That said, unfortunately for me, studies show that Spanish tends to disappear at the 3rd generation born here, pretty much like any other language in the past. I wish it were not so, but evidence shows otherwise.
Incidentally, I also believe people have the right not to assimilate, culturally. As long as I pay my taxes and function in society in general, let me speak whatever language I want!
The last point is your feeling work-discriminated.
Independently of all of the above, and all matters of training and ability to perform the job being equal, a business owner has the right to chose a bilingual candidate over you if he perceives that doing that will give him a competitive edge. There is nothing more American than that.
Let me briefly answer your final remark regarding "going back to Mexico, paying taxes and coming the right way". Shocking as it might be to you, most illegal immigrants do pay taxes. As for coming the "right way", there is no "right way" left.
The number of legal unskilled job visas opened every year is 5000 (yes, five thousand), a ridiculous number considering the country's economic needs. As for skilled workers, they have to work about 8 years under an "indentured" (i.e. semi-slave) regime and pay exorbitant fees to his employer in order to gain his good will. Both systems invite corruption and shortcuts. It is no excuse for making a mockery of it, but believe me, the system is broken. There is a bunch of people making money from the faulty statu quo (the immigration lawyers, the hospitality industries, the single-issue/hot-button fringe politicians, the IT industry), and very few of them are Mexican.
I hope you don't perceive that I am trying to split hairs or deny my part of responsibility in the situation that frustrates you. If I saw myself in disadvantage in my own country in relation to a foreign national on any given issue, I would be furious too about my perceived lack of leverage. Hopefully now you have a somewhat bigger picture.
Good luck.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
Are too intelligent to still not be legal I know it's hard but it's not impossible. And yes you do have the right to speak whatever language you choose but in business dealings and social dealings with Americans I am quite sure you speak english as it is only appropriate to do so.
Love is Supreme,
L. Archelle
L.Archelle,
Thanks, but my degree of intelligence is irrelevant . Under the current Kafkian system, my current options, aside from waiting a change in the law, are packing my stuff and leave (with a ten-year ban from returning to the US).
As for English ... Of course I am not trying to impose my language to anyone in particular. Instead, I was expressing what I believe is my right not to culturally assimilate.
Mongo
I disagree with you and I've been in touch with them.
If you think everyone should learn English just because "you" were here first, then by that same logic, we should all learn Native American!
I agree with you about learning English. Here in the U.S. English is the dominant language, but to use the "I'm here first!" train of thought is childish.
The companies who are looking for multi-lingual employees are only trying to reach new customers. It's not like people come in here and demand you speak their language.
And you're right, you don't have to learn Spanish, but it sure helps. And as for the people who do not speak English (not necessarily illegal), I'm sure they would learn it when they can. However, they have other higher priorities they need to focus on, like family.
About illegal immigrants getting paid under the table. They don't pay taxes because they can't get a social security number, not that some of them haven't tried. Also, do you understand why they want to earn money here in the first place? Back home, it sucks. Jobs are scarce to the point where sometimes you worry about lack of food. They don't come here illegally just to tick you off, they risk their lives to cross the desert to feed their families. If it was so easy to get into the U.S. through the normal and legal way, then why on earth would they risk death by heat and dehydration? I'm not saying one side of the argument is right or wrong, I'm just asking for a little understanding as to the reason why they would risk so much.
"They don't come here illegally just to tick you off, they risk their lives to cross the desert to feed their families."
Personally I would not dream of having a child that I was not in a situation to feed, clothe and shelter. I'd think darn hard before I had a child that I could not afford to give a college education. I view bringing a child into this harsh world a matter of enormous responsibility.
I'm sick of hearing this argument about feeding their families. Most young Mexican parents grew up surrounded by poverty and an economy that was totally devoid of economic opportunity. I understand that the Mexican government refuses to educate their population so as a result they are mainly ignorant. But how much intelligence does it take for a prospective parent to look around at their surroundings, conclude that they can barely afford to feed themselves and to decide not to bring another life into this world that they have no ability to feed? Are they humans who can make a responsible decision or rodents who can't?
I used to feel a lot of sympathy for the third world poor. But most of their problems are self inflicted. This has been going on for generations and they are making no effort to improve their own lot. Instead they poop out kids that they can't afford and which become charity cases for the rest of us. My sympathy has evolved into disgust and contempt.
The old right-wing mantra: the poor are poor because they have too many children.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
I just think they should figure out how they are going to feed them before they concieve them.
The earth is going to add 80 million people next year and the year after that and the year after that ad infinitum. Almost all of these new people will be born in the third world.
We currently accept about a million immigrants legally and perhaps another million come illegally. We could increase the number of immigrants we acceot into America 10-fold and it will not make a dent in the misery that third world reproductive habits are inflicting on third world people. The only thing that would be accomplished is that we would create a demographic inevitability that will destroy America for our own children. Even at current immigration levels we are on track for having a China like population by the end of this century. Is that what we want to leave for our kids?
We could start getting our own population stabilized and addressing this blogger's social problem by requiring all prospective immigrants to be fluent in English before they are allowed to immigrate.
ALL PROBLEMS get harder to solve as our population spirals ever upwards.
Your search for imaginary problems is getting a little boring ...
Are you sure you are against big families or illegal immigration, or it is just that you have a lot of time in your hands and are looking for perceived threats to your lifestyle?
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
Your feigned bored dismissal of arguments you can't refute is pretty weak as a debating tactic.
You have no concerns about an America with 1 billion people?
Do you think the USA will be a better place?
And incidentally, there is nothing imaginary about it. Here is a little movie that everybody should watch that makes it very clear that we are well down the path of an irreversable demographic reality.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265
Oh noooooo... I was wondering when that video would come up.
You seem decently intelligent, how can you suppress your critical thinking so much as to buy ANY of the conclusions on that piece of garbage?
Do me a favor. Google for "mexico birth rates".
But wait, first give me a couple of minutes to call my minions and Google just to alter the results according to my perverse plans ...
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
You criticize the movie without identifying a single one of the facts it contains or a single conclusion that you believe is erroneous
What don't you agree with?
- That immigration is driving USA population growth?
- That our current levels of immigration have caused our population to grow massively over what them would have been as a result of native fertility and that current levels of immigration will cause our population to more than double (almost triple) within the next century?
- That immigration now will lead to further growth later
- That environmental problems will be increasingly hard to solve as we add people?
- That our quality of life will be substantially impacted?
What is it that you think is inaccurate in that movie? Or is it just that you can't think of a good way to refute its frightening truth.
And by the way, birth rate is a meaningless statistic when considering population statistics because it does not take into account deaths. You are apparently in over your head with demographics. The Mexican Fertility Rate is about 2.39 which is 10% above replacement level. Considering that Mexico cannot create jobs or otherwise support its existing population that is not at all good. Of course that number would be much higher if so many young Mexican women were not here in the USA illegally and having their babies here rather than there. I don't believe in Human history there is a single example of a nation that has exported so many of its people due to an inability to support them. Mexico makes the Irish look like pikers. It is really kind of sad and shameful.
There is a name for those "babies from Mexican mothers in the US": American citizens.
That bothers you, doesn't it? Work with Mr Tancredo on it, he will have a solution agreeable to you. No wait, you are a Thompson man, never mind.
Dude, we really are under attack by those rabbit-breeding Mexicans! Lock your door, walk with your ass against the wall ...
I'll try to take you seriously for a moment (it is becoming increasingly difficult).
I agree with that. You need fresh blood to pay for your Social Security.
-
Not necessarily. It will depend on the rate of vegetative growth, death and fertility rate.
-
Broadly yes, with the reservation stated above.
There is no direct relation. Assuming that the major cause of pollution is poverty, it all depends on the US economy's capacity to accommodate its population.
Yours, for sure. All that brown people speaking a language you don't understand, must be terrible. The US in general? No, I don't think so.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
But I still think its BS that American's are required in some places to know Spanish just to get a damn job. I understand it is a better life in the US as well but that doesn't make it right for you to come over here and take over in some ways. I know there is a process to go through to be here legally too, I also know it takes a long time but just because you lack the patients or the skills required to go through that process doesn't mean you have the right to come here illegally either.
What kind of job was it?
What area did t serve?
Was speaking Spanish a nice-to-have or part of the job description?
just frustrated because of a few things that to you, have made life a bit more difficult or competitive..i don't agree with you that you shouldn't have to learn spanish...it's not because of the illegal immigrants that you have to learn it, there are a lot of legal immigrants who don't know english well, but their kids do....and it's not like they don't make an effort, it just gets REALLY hard to learn a language as one grows older, anyways, don't be so narrow minded on this yet, do a bit more research and understand this issue more before you come to a decision on how you feel about spanish and non-english speaking immigrants
"Things have a life of their own. It's just a matter of waking up their souls."
--Gabriel García Márquez
http://www.progressiveu.org/231615-this-is-a-muslim-girls-plight
Ruby.Collins:
It's not the patience or skills to wait in line. It's the luxury of waiting in line. If you have to cross a potentially lethal desert just to get a cheap job in the U.S., patience and skills are not the issue. They are desperate to survive and waiting may kill them. Why else would they risk their lives?
I can also understand the frustration of having to learn a language for a job, but a language is a skill. It's the same thing as a job description requiring the use of computers. You don't blame the computer manufacturers do you? The language skill is something attractive to employers, it's not like illegal immigrants demand you know their language.
It's not about what rights a person has. Sure, no one has the right to come in here illegally, it's technically true. But as a human being, surely you can understand why and where they are running away from? There are places outside where there is little hope.
I'm not someone who welcomes everyone, but I am someone who tries to understand another person's motivation and desperation in extreme situations.
Where spanish speaking people( legal or not) have demanded that a person learn spanish. I have also heard of several situations in which bi-lingual hispanics have chosen to speak spanish in a work environment and been reprimanded. If you come into a country you need to make every effort to speak the dominant language and the only reason why they want bi-lingual workers is because they want spanish money. This is yet another issue in the united states that has more to do with money and not what's neccessarily best for anyone in the situation.
Love is Supreme,
L. Archelle
L.Archelle,
What does "Speak Spanish money" mean?
In any case, I believe you are mixing 2 issues here: First, that if you come to the USA you are supposed to speak English, which is only common sense; and then, your idea that you should become totally aculturated and lose your Spanish heritage, with which I totally disagree.
If hearing bilingual people speaking Spanish among themselves bothers you so much, learn some Spanish yourself, it opens your mind remarkably.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
Was at a Grocery Store!!!!!!! HAHA... Come on now.. No it was not in the description to know Spanish..
Alright, your frustration over not getting a supermarket job because you didn't know spanish is broadcasted loud and clear.
However, if you want someone to blame, why not the supermarket? They didn't give you the full description of who they want to work until after you got rejected.
I think you misplaced your anger. There is a Chinatown around here and I'm sure they expect you to know Chinese. I doubt the number of Chinese illegal immigrants even rivals the number of Hispanic illegal immigrants in America, but I don't go blaming the Chinese illegal immigrants. America is a hot pot, whether the people are in it are legal or not. There will be pockets all over the U.S. where one language, other than English, will dominate.
This might be a tangent, but I'd like to say it. You don't need English to be an American.
Love is Supreme,
L. Archelle
the word that stands out to me whenever I hear the phrase illegal immigrant is ILLEGAL! Illegal is illegal and there is no way to justify it. Become a citizen the right way like all other migrants or go home to poverty. I think the only right an illegal should have is the right to become a Us citizen.
Love is Supreme,
L. Archelle
Yes, illegal is illegal. That's not the point.
My whole point in this entire debate has been the human factor.
I understand the legal system is in place to keep order, however there are instances when I believe that the law must take a back seat when confronted with human life. I am not saying to disregard the rules, but to treat situations such as these with caution and empathy before going around saying, "You're bad, case closed."
People, please understand that it's not a choice between easily becoming a citizen or staying in poverty. It is not easy to become a citizen in this country. In some instances, impossible. Yes, everyone, I said impossible! And in those moments, if you have a choice between risking your life by coming in here illegally and making money for survival and your family's survival or staying in poverty and dying, which would you choose? If it was so simple, believe me, the number of illegal immigrants would drastically decrease. I say most because there really are illegal immigrants out there intent on doing harm, unlike the majority which are just trying to live.
There is no easy solution to this. I believe you can not ignore the laws, but you can not ignore people either.
"I failed my way to success." -Thomas Edison
Could you please publish the list of laws that poor people are not required to obey?
In the third world it may be a cultural belief that poor people don't have to obey the law but in America we have our own native born people and we pretty much insist that they obey our laws. They don't always obey them but we pretty consistently punish them when they don't.
I've traveled in Mexico fairly extensively and even in the worst ghettos there are not people dying of starvation on any significant scale. I am also very well read on this subject and I don't believe I have ever read an article about starvation in Mexico. .Perhaps there is some malnutrition but this is not a matter of survival as you imply.
On the contrary, I have read several studies which suggest that most illegal immigrants have jobs in Mexico and leave them for better paying jobs in America. This is not a case of survival but rather a case of breaking our laws for economic advancement.
Now there are countries around the world where people really do die of mass starvation. Because our country is overwhelmed with low skilled illegal immigrants from Mexico, our ability to help these considerably more desparate people is greatly lessoned. But Mexican's who are on average wealthier than 5 of the 6 billion people on earth selfishly believe they should enjoy special privledges just because we happen to share a border.
Mexicans cutting in line from all that poor people in the world that also want to enter the US=dimwitted attempt to push anti-undocumented views from a supposed leftist perspective.
You don't even deserve an answer.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
Humor me!
Explain why the relatively mild poverty of Mexicans compared to most people living in the third world should give them priority in the US immigration system?
I was not the one that advanced the disingenuous argument that illegal immigration from Mexico was a matter of survival and avoiding starvation.
Call it "historical reparation".
After all, having subtracted 40% of their territory under questionable pretenses should give them some sort of priority, right?
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
But history hasn't usually worked that way.
It was kind of rotten of us to take the half of Mexico with all the paved roads.
I did not mean to imply that there are laws poor people are exempted. I actually said not to ignore laws.
I never implied that in third world countries, people learn that breaking laws is ok.
I also did not mean to imply that Mexico is the only one which contributes to the illegal immigration issue. Just because you are well read does not mean you know all sides.
Let me point out one thing again: If these people just simply want economic advancement, then they must have a pretty good reason for it because they are risking their lives to cross a potentially lethal desert. Most people in their right minds won't go to those lengths just so they could get a little more cash unless they actually desperately need it. Just because they have jobs before doesn't mean that it was enough to pay for basic needs. And besides, studies do not necessarily reflect all of reality, but a sample.
Are you implying that if you're in a worse country than Mexico, it's ok? I'm not saying that one person has anymore right to break in according to their situation. And I don't think that Mexicans selfishly believe that they should gain more just because they are right next to us. I think they just want to get out of their desperate situation. It has nothing to do with where they are in the world relative to us.
Studies and numbers will only get you so far. I read them too. However I also know people from both sides, so I get more of an in-depth understanding. I see the human element.
"I failed my way to success." -Thomas Edison
As an illegal immigrant myself, I can help you see that phrase under a new light.
Did you purchase things on the Internet last year?
Then, of course you immediately wrote a check to the state you live for 10% the amount in concept of sales and use tax.
What? You didn't?
Then, my dear, you engaged in "willful tax evasion", which is a felony.
Staying in the country unauthorized is a civil offense.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
For which the penalty is deportation and can also include fines and jail. And after the first deportation, illegal re-entry becomes a felony.
And if you are here working illegally using either a stolen or a make-believe Social Security number it is a felony. And if your are working under the table you are violating our employment laws which in some cases is a felony and you are also committing felony tax evasion.
Illegal is illegal and most ilegals are committing felony crimes along with their initial civil offense. They are serial criminals.
You have a bad habit of justifying your bad behavior with the bad behavior of others. It is irrelevant to the discussion as to whether or not somebody payed sales tax on an internet purchase. One crime does NOT and can never justify another crime.
So you and I agree that it is a civil offense and righteous people should shut their traps.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
If you will agree to self deport yourself and get right with the law.
Send me those check stubs of yours (showing me that you haven't evaded sales and use taxes), and I'll take the 1st plane.
And don't be conservative!
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
jackbenimble,
I just attended the Morlok council (or, as some of you prefer to call us, "Mexicans") and took your breeding concerns to the elders.
They told me your fears are unfounded: we can't breed too quickly, otherwise we would deplete the American resource.
I don't hold much sway in the council, but if you give your zip code I can ask them not to surface in your area that often.
It is all I can do, sorry ...
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
Hey Mongo,
edited to remove the bogus stuff I accidently posted.
Jack
Thanks for not using that fake link as ammunition.
I would have reacted immediately, but your removing it at least tells me that you do some fact checking.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
Mongo, while I would have used that article to beat illegal aliens like a step-child if it had been true, I won't smear you or anyone else with lies. It is just too easy using the truth. Most of the facts and most of the rational arguments fall on my side of this debate. I have no need to resort to spreading lies and as soon as I realized that is what I had done I deleted it. I post on numerous forums across the internet as jackbenimble and I value my reputation. I could of course drag out John Leee Malvo who was a for real illegal alien terrorsist but that is old news and as a black Jamaican he barely fits the mold of being Hispanic.
Since you said something nice, I'll admit that I actually kind of admire you. Despite having almost no facts, laws or rational arguments that land on your side of the discussion, you manage to put up a spirited debate using the few emotional arguments at your disposal (along with some cheap rhetorical tricks). It is almost convincing and probably works with liberals who think feelings are more important than thoughts. When you are finally deported I hope you study law in Mexico and use all the practice you have had here to help out the illegal aliens from Central America that get caught in Mexico. You could probably make a good living that way and they need help because the Mexican government treats them pretty badly. I don't have much concern about you because an intelligent person who is fluently bi-lingual has pretty good prospects in Mexico. Bueno Suerte!
Isn't that called "argumentum ad hominem", attacking the person when you run out of gas?
Buddy, you didn't understand the gist of it: I am not going anywhere.
Keep perusing that Constitution book of yours enough, and you will probably be able to reinterpret it so that a national ID is instituted, and birthright citizenship abolished, and due process to people in the street that look Latin overlooked.
Until that doesn't happen, my friend, I am here to stay.
You insist with the tired argument citing the harshness of Mexican immigration laws. I have to admit I am no expert in the subject. I do know two things that are pretty much common knowledge on that subject:
1) The US encourages Mexico's restrictionist approach towards Central America, in order to reduce the numbers of centroamericans that want to enter the US via Mexico. It is kind of hypocrite of you to complain about the Mexicans doing your dirty work. But then again, you have been doing that forever.
2) Once Mexico had a much lax immigration law, and gave generous land grants an even tax exemptions to people who wanted to settle on the then district of Coahuila-Texas. In return, Mexico just asked an oath of allegiance, and learning Spanish. We know how it all ended.
As an American, you should wash your mouth with soap before saying a word about whatever immigration policy Mexico sees fit nowadays.
Grammar parenthesis:
-all those words of Greek origin (problema, teorema, anatema, dilema, etc) are masculine despite ending in an "-a".
-"Suerte" is feminine, hence "buena suerte".
-The construction "No+ a noun' to indicate absence doesn't exist in Spanish, I would recommend using the impersonal "hay(=there is), as in "no hay problema".
I am just getting warmed up. Let me check what other little "letter-of-the-law-I-don't-owe-anything-to-anyone-social-darwinist-I-am" material you posted lately.
See you soon.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
The irony of that comment is lost to my vegetable-picking brain. Please explain.
Mongo
www.itsnofun.com
Yes like you said, every one has their own opinions; one of the great things about living in this country.
I've been in contact with many immigrants, but I cannot say that they were illegals. I believe that knowing other languages should be rewarded in certain jobs. If a company serves English and Spanish speaking customers, it is reasonable to want to hire employees that will be able to help their customers.
There are ignorant opinions and well informed opinions; I give you props for doing research on the topic, afterwards. Unfortunately you seem to have had bad experiences living in California; I hope that bitterness goes away some day.