Christianity pisses me off. It doesn't make sense. It's a religious of fear. Believe in me, OR ELSE.
Well, you know what?
I want to believe.
It's very lonely. I want to believe there is a god who loves me and wants the best for me and will take me to a nice place when I die.
I want to believe. Desperately want to believe.
But I don't believe. It's not something I can control. Are you going to send me to hell because of something I CAN'T CONTROL??
Imagine you're told that Zeus is the one true god and you will be send to hell if you don't believe in him. Do you believe that Zeus exists? Probably not. Is someone telling you that Zeus exists going to change that? Probably not. Is ANYTHING going to change that? Probably not. You can TRY to believe he exists, but how can you make yourself believe something?
That's the main problem I have with Christianity - that you're supposed to believe. I can't. I can't force myself to believe in something I don't think exists. You can tell me that the world is flat. I can WANT to believe the world is flat, because it's a comforting notion, since gravity is freaky. But that doesn't mean I'll be able to believe that the world is flat.
Gods are even more complicated. Okay, suppose somehow, through logic and reasoning, I convince myself that a god exists. Not just a higher power - a GOD, who watches over every individual human.
There are thousands of gods. Millions. How do I know which one is the real one? Muslims tell me their god is the real one. Christians tell me the Muslims are wrong, THEIR god is the real one. Wiccans say there isn't even a god - there's a GODDESS. Various tribes and sects and cults tell me that there's a totally different god and everyone else is wrong.
Now how the hell am I supposed to know?
Maybe I have a dream. Get a sign. But they're not clear enough. I need a loud and clear heavenly voice to tell me: Hello. I'm the Christian God. I sent my son to die for the sins of your ancestors. I exist. I am not the god of the Jews or the Muslims or the Pagans. I am the Christian God of the Protestant sect.
And then to somehow convince me that it's not a hallucination... which is another problem. How do I know the prophecy, the dream, the voice - isn't a hallucination?
Okay. But let's say somehow I'm convinced that a god exists. The Christian god. An angel comes down and tells me so. Something like that.
So I believe he EXISTS. But that doesn't mean I'm going to worship him. I have to go over the entire bible, OT and NT, and decide if I like this god.
And if I don't, I'm not going to worship him. That would be false worshipping, if I don't believe that what this god stands for is good.
And I will never worship the Christian god, because I believe the Christian god is evil. Evil because he sends and has sent countless innocent people to eternal damnation. Babies who weren't baptized. Little kids too young to believe. People who'd never heard of him. People who couldn't make themselves believe. People who believed the wrong god. GOOD people.
I believe I am a good person.
I don't think I deserve to go to hell for not agreeing with a god, but doing everything I can to be a good person.
I think that god is evil. I think a god who would send good people to hell, yet allow murderers and rapists and child molesters into heaven, provided they believed in him, is evil.
Yes, this god can forgive murderers and rapists and child molesters. I can accept that. I can accept that a man can rape his daughter, and years later hate himself for it, regret it terribly, want to die because of this horrible thing he did. Perhaps he should be forgiven.
But Christianity says he can rape her until the day he dies. As long as he believes that Jesus is forgiving each sin.
Another problem with Christianity is that it is a religion of fear.
Believe in me - OR ELSE.
If I knew this god would exist, I would be terrified not to worship. I would worship out of fear. Because I'd be terrified to be sent to hell. I wouldn't worship because I loved the god. I wouldn't worship out of my free will. I'd worship because I'd be afraid.
What happens if I don't believe, and don't worship, or worship the wrong god - and then I die and go to the judgement place and OOPS!! Sorry Jesus, I see you really do exist now.
And Jesus says, well, too bad. You're going to hell, even though you believe in me now.
This is not a god I like, this god of fear.
You know what god I would like?
A god who doesn't have a hell. Not the stereotypical, hot hell. If you're a bad person when you die, you can relive all the evil you did - from the victim's side. Maybe you'll truly repent then. And if you do - go on into heaven. If you don't, you can keep going through psychological torture. Maybe be reborn as something else. Or if you're truly evil through and through, blink out because your soul really sucks.
When you die, you're welcomed into the arms of this god. This god tells you that he loves you like a child. That you ARE his child. And here is the heaven where all god's children go. Where you will always be happy. It doesn't matter if you believed or not. It only matters if your soul was good.
That's what I'd like.
I pray, you know.
"God/goddess/gods/higher-power: please forgive me/love me/comfort me/save me. I'm not sure you exist, but if you do, could you do this for me? Thanks."
Just in case.
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I agree in a lot of what you're saying. I think one of the things that makes life bearable is believing in something, anything, even if it isn't God or any sort of religion. It's just finding a cause worthy of believing in that I find to be the hard part...
"What was never given utterance eventually becomes too nebulous to recall."
~ Jane Smiley
The funny thing with worshippers is that they all pretend to believe, while they are in fact afraid of the realities this believing implies. They actually don’t want to believe to much, because it brings them even more fear!
If good would present itself and come knocking at the door, how many believers would happily open the door?
The things that makes life bearable is common sense, it even makes one’s life enjoyable, since it is not filled with guild but understanding of who you are.
To use your brain and realize what you want and don’t want, brings all the identity you need in order to allow you to be ok with whatever choice you make.
Be cool, be ok, be yourself is quite easy while extremely bearable and meaningful.
To be meaningful is the purpose of our life, that’s why each of us individuals have access to these colors of life that allow us to fill out our lives in our personal way and vision.
All the rest is a hallucination of self-inflicted fear that keeps us in shackles…
First off, I greatly respect your right to post your opinion
Also, you are a very eloquent and passionate writer.
But I also think maybe you've had a bad experience with Christianity in the past. I was raised to believe that God (or whomever is chilling up there) doesn't really base it all so much on exactly what denomination you practice or what exactly you believe, but on how much love you spread in your time on earth.
I will give you that some of the Christian sects are straight up terroizing organizations.
But some aren't, and I don't know if it's entirely fair to group them all together.
Good luck with your spiritual quarry
I respect your post, but I agree with hugogirl46's comment. There is so much variation among Christians, that it is hard to generalize them all together. Also, as a Catholic I believe that God is all forgiving as long as you are sorry and that He is also understanding and recognizes that as we are humans, we are apt to sin. Although you do point out some points, I feel that in my education and experience with the Catholic Church, no one has ever stressed "fearing God" as an incentive to believe or threatened us with Hell. I was given a choice to believe and I accepted that choice.
Hm. Most Catholics I met actually do seem to believe the "You'll burn in hell if you don't believe" bit.
My point is that you said "most," not "all" and you should not make such a sweeping generalization about a whole, when your experiences have only proven it to be that some believe it. Also, I consider myself one that believes not in "fire and brimstone" but instead that God is all loving.
The sweeping generalization made in my post was simply to make my point clearer. I was referring to the fire and brimstone type of person, I know that (thankfully) many Christians are not like that in the least, and I'm very glad for that. :)
I get called on my use of literary conceit, too.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
A majority of Catholics don't even follow what they preach. And majority believe that you have to go to Purgatory before you are sent to Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is the place where you stay while little old women pray for the forgiveness of your sins.
as long as you are sorry, as long will you walk around with guild… :-(
Actually, I have not. :) And I do recognize that many Christians don't believe that stuff. This was aimed more to the ones who do, or think that such beliefs are okay.
I mean, there are all those statues and the Iliad and the Odyssey, and the temples, and there really IS a Mount Olympus! So why can't you accept Zeus as the one true god?
There must be something wrong with you.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
We all know that Zeus is not the one true God. His Noodly Goodness is the only One and he has created these false Gods as a test of our faith! The heathens of the past will be punished in the Hell of Skunked Beer and Strippers with VD.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
My Creative Writing
Can we get a "blowing chunks" smiley?
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
So we have a deity worshiping and spreading the faith of another deity. Very interesting.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
How many times do I have to tell you, the FSM is a lie. The one true god is my dog!
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
They are spelled kinda the same...
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Exactly. God is dog backwards.
And, as we all know, the Meek will inherit the Earth.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
Ahem. The One True Goddess is Google.
I just googled "the one true goddess" in hope that this would reveal some mind-blowing epiphany. I mean, if the one true goddess is google, then I googled "the one true goddess," you've got to think some magic might happen. It didn't.
Looks like I'm still agnostic.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Try googling "The Church of Google." Google is a just and fair and TRUTHFUL Goddess - if people do not yet realize she is the One True One, she will not pretend that they do.
and by seeking it is ahead of many contemporaries. SEO optimization vendors do strive hard to prevent too much fairness, though they may be false prophets.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
Umm I respect people who question the faith that I love so much. The reason I say that is I relate to you in certain ways. I always have believed in Jesus and God but never really understood the concept of heaven and hell till I started asking questions.Questions are good it gives you knowledge and never let anyone make you feel bad because you have questions.My questions would be like what if you were blind, deaf, couldnt talk and things like that then what would happen when you die. I would ask about children too and other faiths.
I feel like it would be a good idea if you maybe went to a church to talk to a minister and ask him to explain things to you. To comment on a few things you said, children and babies dont go to hell in the Bible it says they go to heaven because they did no wrong nor did they know. So if a two year old dies it go to heaven. You dont start being judged by God until your way older . ( If Im not mistaken its your teen years like maybe twelve I can ask though but I do know children dont go to hell). Also God doesnt base whether or not you go to Heaven or hell on how good of a person you were. Every church I have been to basically say the same thing when it comes to this situation which is you must ask Jesus and God to be you personal Lord and Savior and to live in your heart for the rest of your days.
Also I feel like maybe you have been fed the wrong things about Jesus and God. You know how you feel that we were taught to be believers I feel that maybe you were taught to not be one. You really should get some books on Christianity and maybe even read a Bible. You may be surprised of what you find out. He doesnt send people to hell people send themselves. Do you believe that there is a Satan? I really hope that my comment is not offensive because normally I wouldnt comment on situations like this but I feel like you want to believe you just have so many questions and maybe you even fear God so much that it scares you sometimes. Seriously find someone to talk to about this and make sure its a person who really knows what they are talking about. All pastors wasnt called by God and just cause they stand in pulpit dont mean nothing.
I pray that you are able to find the answers you so desparately want and I pray you find something to believe in. Dont get me wrong I dont go to church every Sunday nor do I read my Bible often. I dont want you to think that I was judging you either because I cant judge only He can. Im not like some Christians I dont get angry when I read things like this. I feel as if maybe you have had a bad experience with Christians judging you and making you feel like you are just evil cause you have questions. I will check back every so often to see if you have any questions I dont mind answering them plus my cousin is a minister so what I dont know I can ask him. Trust me I dont know everything about the Bible no one does they all just think they do!!!! God will do whatever you need Him to do. Just try Him and see.
Much Love from your new Christian friend,
Me
Oh yeah the God you want is the one I got cause once you accept him when you die he will accept you with open arms. You are his child whether you believe or not He loves you sooooooooooooooooooooooo much!!!! Always remember He loves you no matter what you do!! He is not evil and dont be afraid of Him He will never hurt you! Do you wanna know something really funny? At the end of your blog you basically prayed the salvation prayer minus the goddess and all the other people.
Smile Jesus loves you!
I was raised in a sect of Evangelical Lutherans who believed in predestination, so yes, some babies, children, and aborted fetuses went to hell, because God knew their hearts would have rejected him later in life. We don't know WHICH ones, of course. Only God knows that. And this sect also taught that they are the one true religion, all others be damned. Since there are only a few thousand members, looks like most of y'all have missed the boat.
See why people can be so skeptical of religion? The stakes are too high for choosing the wrong one.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
First of all - I'm glad there are Christians like you! I think everyone should question their faith on a regular basis. It's foolish to blindly believe in something if you don't totally understand it. Assuming God exists, he created us with intelligent brains, why would he give us the ability to wonder and question if we were not MEANT to? Great people in the bible - like Abraham - CONSTANTLY questioned God and asked for reasons. Blind faith is dangerous.
What you don't understand, I think, is that many Christians sects are VERY different from yours. I have been told by Christians that yes, babies and children go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus. Even you are basically saying that teenagers and adults go to hell for not believing. You are saying that my little 13-year-old sister is going to hell. She is a beautiful little girl who loves theatre and wants a career in helping people. She was raised Jewish and so naturally thinks the idea of Jesus is just weird. You're saying that if, heaven forbid, she died tomorrow, she would go to hell, because she doesn't believe in Jesus.
You are saying that I'm going to hell. I'm an eighteen-year-old girl. I have a family who I love, who loves me. I'm in college studying to be a social worker. I volunteer about 30 hours a week with peer counseling. This summer I'm going to Cambodia to volunteer with kids there. My goal in live is to help as many people as possible through social service and through raising awareness of them via writing and photography. I don't believe in Jesus because I see no reason to, I think he's just another mythical god, no more likely than Zeus (as I said). You're saying that if I dropped dead tonight, I'd go to hell.
Your God indeed sounds lovely, but the problem is that he is still a cruel, sadistic god who, according to you, at least, throws people like me and my little sister (and my other little sister, and my brothers, and my parents, etc) to hell. x.x
"It's very lonely. I want to believe there is a god who loves me and wants the best for me and will take me to a nice place when I die."
Well, if it's any consolation, your family and friends are here (wherever that is) for you.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
Sadly, I really suck socially. XD
Well, the digitally.
lol
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I guess different religions different beliefs because mines say that they go to heaven.
Much Love
Excellent. I definitely don't think all Christians are like the ones I talked about in my post. :)
The first step is wanting to believe, now, just believe. This would require an act of faith on your part. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (Hebrews 11:1)
No one deserves to go to hell, It is not God's will, and God doesn't send people to hell. We have our own will apart from God's. We have a choice to line our will up with his, resulting in a fulfilled life (and eternal life). We also have a choice to live according to our own will, resulting in an unfulfilled life inspired by the adversary, the devil.
It is God's will for all men to be saved.
That's what get's me about posts like this, people are always asking how can God send people to hell? ( He doesn't, the devil does.)
-Amanda-
Yeah, but when you have an omnipotent deity, he can stop people from going to hell. He chooses not to. It amounts to the same thing.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
The only way he can is through someone choosing salvation, through faith in Him. God can't work outside of your faith. When people choose not to live by faith, God can do nothing.
-Amanda-
Um. He's Omnipotent!
He can do whatever the hell he wants to.
I'm sorry, no merciful deity would let people go to hell for skepticism or incorrect faith. And no merciful deity would allowanyone to go to hell forever.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I really wish you could hear everything that I've heard for the past year in church. There is so much to explain, and I can't quite find the words to try to get people to understand the truth, but I'll try...
well, here goes.
God created man, man having his own will. When Adam and Eve were tempted by satan they fell into sin. They disobeyed God, from then on, they were turned over to the devil. The fall of man turned the earth over to satan. God is not able to work in the earth with out our faith. Mary, through her faith and trust in God, was able to become supernaturally pregnant. She gave birth to Jesus, who was destined to fix the mistake of Adam and Eve by dying, and then raising so that we can live through him. (Death through Adam, Life through Christ.) We were born into a world run by satan, (the world's system) but through our faith "that if we confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved." (Romans 10:9)
Now you are part of the kingdom of God (a spiritual, not a natural, system). Our faith is not in worldy, natural things, it is in spiritual, unseen things.
*takes a deep breath*
-Amanda-
Um, Satan was created by God. And God knew perfectly well what would happen. God CAN "work" outside the "limits" of Christianity - God knows everything and can do anything, no?
There is only one Satan, we all know about him, he hides in our wallets to make sure it all goes to God, when Satan isn’t in your wallet, God isn’t to happy while it shows around the misery you live….
What?
Lol, nice, very nice Wombels.
Kiota doesn’t like long comments, lol, I hope it made some sense, haha
lol, just write a long blog, I don't think Kiota will go nazi on you like Nick does. I got it though, it was good, haha.
What I forgot to mention-which is vitally important- is that God created the earth for mankind, He gave them dominion*. Being a covenant God, he cannot work in the earth without our faith. He keeps his promises, therefore, He can't intervene without our participation with him via faith (trust).
*Genesis 1:26
-Amanda-
But he does nothing to try and show people the correct faith. He a)has a ton of different religions and b) has evidence all around that blatantly contradicts the bible. Showing himself and saying what the correct religion is isn't a violation of free will. He could do that and therefore help more people get to heaven. But, for whatever reason, he does not.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
a) there is one religion, people made up the others...and yes I'm suggesting that it's Christianity.
b) what evidence?
It is a Christian's 'job' to show the glory of God through their own life, being salt and light in the earth, influencing others.
-Amanda-
a) Yes, but there is absolutely no reason to believe Christianity over any other religion as truth. And, even if there was, what sect?
b) the fossil record, the age of the earth, a round earth, heliocentricity...
Yes, but being a good person is not unique to Christians. So living a good life doesn't really prove much of anything.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
He's an omnipotent god.
He can do whatever he wants to do.
Even if, for whatever reason, he can't work without faith, he can reveal himself! Then people will believe in him and not go to hell.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"He can do whatever he wants to do."
Exactly right. He doesn't have to do it YOUR way. The only constraint on a perfect Gods' behavior is that everthing he does is perfect. So, just assume that God does everything perfectly. That way you will understand his/her motives more clearly.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
You're soooo going to need to offer proof that he's perfect to make that argument.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
My Creative Writing
You start somewhere. Logic cannot exist without any axiom or postulate. While you may not accept that definition to me it is better than the circular one with God and the Bible chasing each others tail.
Here is a more thorough list, though I'm open to aditions. ;-)
God = Truth
Truth = Reality
Truth = Perfection
God = Perfection
Imperfection <> Truth
Heaven or Paradise = Loving the Truth with all you might, Soul, and Heart.
Sin or Evil = Lies, Hate, Fantacising your own unreal false Truth.
That is the gist. All of that can also be found within what Jesus taught, though He did a better job of it than I. How can an all Powerful, All Good, Universe creating God be anything else?
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
But since his creation cannot fathom the perfection...that would make him imperfect in our minds. It's like considering the number infinity. We perceive ∞ as the largest number in existence. YET, when we consider the number ∞ + 1, we we just consider it to be ∞. Therein lies the problem. We should perceive God as ∞ while he is, in reality ∞+1.
As I've said before, anything is possible. In an infinite universe with an infinite number of possibilities, anything can happen, so I won't outright deny God (often). However, I could care less about him, so I doubt he focuses any attention to me, should he exist.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
My Creative Writing
Infinity is a good example. It is a concept in much the same way that a monotheistic Creator or God is. I have faith in both concepts, but can prove neither.
Our universe may, or may not be infinite. Certainly we would be unable to picture infinity even if we could see it, since it it takes time (just one of our limiting factors) to see each component of infinity, and we don't have forever, or even if we do we'll never get there.
The result is what we see in every one of these debates. Most people on both sides try to reason about the creator of infinity as though he/she were finite and understandable.
"All wisdom involves paradox."
Lao Tze
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
I can't assume that god does anything perfectly until I am presented with evidence that shows me it more likely that a god exists than a Universe with no god.
And, yes, if an omnipotent god exists, he doesn't have to do it my way.
However, if he sends non-believers to hell, but will not take steps to convince many of them, then a person cannot say that this is a kind god.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
If you insist on certain properties in a God it is not hard to eventually come to conclude that the properties you insisted upon contradict themselves. Is that evidence of there being no God? Hardly.
---
"if an omnipotent god exists, he doesn't have to do it my way."
Good place to start. This is Gods world, if you differ in any regard from an omnipotent force only one of you is wrong...
---
"I can't assume that god does anything perfectly until I am presented with evidence that shows me it more likely that a god exists than a Universe with no god."
So when you discuss God you always have an out. That being that you can insist on another ridiculous property. Why is it inapropriate to define your terms to facilitate discussion of like concepts?
---
"if he sends non-believers to hell, but will not take steps to convince many of them, then a person cannot say that this is a kind god."
2 assumptions:
-sends non-believers to hell.
Why insist on that? First of all the religions that propose a hell are quite inclusive and place believers there as well. The most common ticket is evil, or sin. Many monotheistic faiths do not have this concept. Among these is the Hebrew faith until just a short time before Jesus was born.
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellStats/hell.htm
-will not take steps to convince many of them
I'm not sure who you are talking about here. No Jehovas' Witness where you're from? Prothletizing seems more than sufficient from my perspective, even in the furthest corners of the earth they seem to be doing it. On a broader note the ability to see reality, and choose to be good rather than evil, is availiable to all.
1 conclusion
-a person cannot say that this is a kind god.
Obviously a person can say what they wish, true or not. In fact you do not have to even be consistent or rational. It seems that speaking correctly may even be impossible without definitions. Which is what I refered to in my coment.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
This is a logical fallacy. There is no logical burden of proof on the argument that there is no "god."
This is a logical fallacy. Before you can rationally assert that "this is 'god's' world," you must first establish that the being you refer to as "god" actually exists. You are begging the question of "god's" existence.
Why? Because doing so would be a logical fallacy (begging the question, again). One cannot logically assign properties to an unknown quantity.
This is a logical fallacy (on both sides). There is no actual, objective evidence that would permit a rational mind to conclude that the place called "hell" exists. This begs the question of "hell's" existed, as well as the existence of a "god" that would send you there after you die.
This entire line of reasoning is pointless, until SOMEONE on the pro-theist side comes up with some actual, objective evidence to support their currently baseless hypothesis concering the existence of "god." Now, granted, there can be an interesting thought exercise found in this kind of speculative syllogism, but ultimately any conclusions that rely upon the unporved premise of "god exists" are logically unsound.
percivale
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
"There is no logical burden of proof"
Correct. Nothing MUST be proven, but if you are discussing...
---
"if you differ in any regard from an omnipotent force only one of you is wrong..."
The single word 'God' is the only thing that you can reasonably object to here. So leave it out, and disagree with reality, or the truth all you wish.
---
"This entire line of reasoning is pointless, until SOMEONE on the pro-theist side comes up with some actual, objective evidence to support their currently baseless hypothesis concering the existence of "god." Now, granted, there can be an interesting thought exercise found in this kind of speculative syllogism, but ultimately any conclusions that rely upon the unporved premise of "god exists" are logically unsound."
I agree in many ways with the rest of your post, but here the assertion, which is just a definition, is "God is Perfect" not "God exists" the simple question of existence is itself meaningless unless you know what you are looking for. Thus as I pointed out if you can continually redefine the properties of the sought after God there is no way to prove his existence, or even agree on what does or doesn't exist.
Do you agree that a Truth exists? If so, could you agree that that Truth is perfect?
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
The truth may or may not be perfect. Define what you mean by perfect first.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Eventually this leads back to the subject of this Blog, but with more than one person discussing, and the skinny boxes The cause of clarity is better served continuing there.
http://www.progressiveu.org/023149-reality-right
Please come and disect my feeble logic there.
Truth is a demure lady, much too ladylike to knock you on your head and drag you to her cave. She is there, but people must want her, and seek her out.
William F. Buckley, Jr.
If you discussion is to be considered logical, then there is a burden of proof...but it lies with the claim that "god" exists. To attempt to shift the burden onto the negative position (which is a common theological tactic) is a logical fallacy.
Trying to play semantics and redefine the terms under consideration is just a mind game. You may call your "omnipotent force" whatever you wish...but the actual, objective evidence for your position remains the same (and thus utterly lacking).
And yet your attempts at definition remain logically flawed. Saying that "god is perfect" is no different than saying "superman is strong" or "big foot is hairy." Attempting to "define" non-real (or at best, unknown) quantities is an inherently illogical enterprise. Before you can logically suggest that "god is perfect," you must first establish that "god exists." That you have not done, and thus your position remains flawed.
I agree that some things are true, and some things are false. However, the use of the capitalized "Truth" implies something entirely more speculative than I think to which any rational person can logically ascribe. "Perfection" however is a subjective and often arbitrary point-of-view, and not something that can be objectively measured.
The bottom line is simple. Either you can prove--objectively and empirically--that "god" exists, OR every conclusion that you reach based on the premise on "god's" existence is logically flawed.
percivale
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
"there is a burden of proof...but it lies with the claim that "god" exists."
OK, Step by step.
---
"Trying to play semantics and redefine the terms under consideration is just a mind game."
You have that backwards. The mind game is trying to prove something without first defining what you seek to prove.
---
"You may call your "omnipotent force" whatever you wish."
True, for the first step you can use reality, or the Truth.
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Do you agree that a Truth exists?
"I agree that some things are true, and some things are false. However, the use of the capitalized "Truth" implies something entirely more speculative than I think to which any rational person can logically ascribe."
Your answer here is very vague. I'll restate my question for clarification:
Is the world in which we live exactly as it really is independant of our understanding, or observational perspective?
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The next question is dependant on your view of the first, but here is the definition of perfect i intended:
Perfect = exactly as it should be.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
...a basic lack of exposure to rational (and specifically logical) argumentation.
Defining what you seek to prove is a "hypothesis." Your argument, however, is a classic example of begging the question, i.e. "circular logic." Just inventing a hypothesis is not the same as providing evidence that your hypothesis is correct. In this particular case, you are engaging in a truly basic logical fallacy, i.e. you are trying to play with the premise of your hypothesis in order to steer it towards an already determined (by you) conclusion. In rational discourse, one does not seek to "define" an object whose existence is in question, rather one attempts to discover that object, and if it exists you subsequently observe its properties.
In order to determine the "truth," you need evidence. Your argument has none...nada, zilch, zip, not even one objectively demonstrable fact that actually supports your conclusion.
As was your question...
That's a question that has plagued philosophers since the dawn of recorded history. My answer would be that it depends what you mean when you say, "reality" (from our previous discussions, I know that you tend to rely on a self-invented dictionary). My personal opinion is that that we still have a lot of "reality" to investigate before we can be sure, but the evidence we have suggests to me that yes, "reality" is what it is regardless of our personal perspectives and interpretations. That is not to say, of course, that those perspectives and interpretations are irrelevant...after all, "reality" could just be one big trick of the senses.
Your definition reveals the subjective (and again, circular) nature of your argument. When you say that...
...you reveal that your idea of "perfect" is a projected, subjective judgment. And, it is a judgment that relies upon an outside inteligence, i.e. an entity that possessed motivation and intention to have actively "created" reality. This again (and again, and again, and again) is begging the question of the conclusion you wish to reach concerning the existence of "god."
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
LOL! The best part of the joke is that I agree.
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"the evidence we have suggests to me that yes, "reality" is what it is regardless of our personal perspectives and interpretations. That is not to say, of course, that those perspectives and interpretations are irrelevant...after all, "reality" could just be one big trick of the senses."
Good, our perspective, including any misunderstandings each of us has, is not irrelevant, but is only a part of reality, and does not change reality except by our actions. Even though reality may be a 'trick of the sences' and thus our perception completely wrong those sences exist in some underlying reality that is, as it is, and no other way.
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"When you say that...
'Perfect = exactly as it should be.'
...you reveal that your idea of "perfect" is a projected, subjective judgment."
No dead wrong, saying that reality is NOT as it should be is a subjective statement. Saying that things are exactly right as they are, while leaving out any statement pretending to know how that is, is objective. Being objective requires that you accept things as they are, while judging reality to be less than perfect is always a subjective judgement.
Truth is a demure lady, much too ladylike to knock you on your head and drag you to her cave. She is there, but people must want her, and seek her out.
William F. Buckley, Jr.
No dead wrong, saying that reality is NOT as it should be is a subjective statement. Saying that things are exactly right as they are, while leaving out any statement pretending to know how that is, is objective. Being objective requires that you accept things as they are, while judging reality to be less than perfect is always a subjective judgement.
Unfortunately for your argument, that wasn't my argument. To me, reality is what it is...and I don't need to inject any subjective notion of how it "should" or "should not" be in order to observe it. "Should"--in either direction--implies that there is an intelligence behind things that is making value-judgments while setting the "rules" of the universe in place. It is a fairly subtle use of circular logic, but it is begging the question nonetheless.
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
" "Should"--in either direction--implies that there is an intelligence behind things that is making value-judgments while setting the "rules" of the universe in place."
I think that would only be true if SHOULDN'T had equal validity. Which it doesn't.
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"To me, reality is what it is..."
I'm glad we agree so far. To Shun skinny boxes I am continuing on this thread:
http://www.progressiveu.org/023149-reality-right
Truth is a demure lady, much too ladylike to knock you on your head and drag you to her cave. She is there, but people must want her, and seek her out.
William F. Buckley, Jr.
...in order to give yourself something to rebutt. "Should" and "shouldn't" are equally valid in this discussion...which is to say that neither is valid at all. "Shoud" and "shouldn't" imply a value judgements made on the front end of your circular argument. Neither of these terms is objective or logical when used in this context, since you cannot provide us with the necessary evidence that would suggest that your premise, i.e. the entity that would have had to make such judgements, is actually true.
You are grasping at straws, my friend...
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
"You are grasping at straws, my friend..."
Hmmm, I would say narrowing an impossibly broad subject of discussion. I am not trying to prove matters of faith, just compare apples to apples.
""Should" and "shouldn't" are equally valid in this discussion...which is to say that neither is valid at all."
The 'should' in this instance is acceptance 'as is' while 'shouldn't' implies a better option. Thus the burden would fall to the 'shouldn't' as it claims the existence of something better than what is.
Truth is a demure lady, much too ladylike to knock you on your head and drag you to her cave. She is there, but people must want her, and seek her out.
William F. Buckley, Jr.
*is laughing hysterically at the skinny boxes*
...these boxes have become laughably skinny. So, I will reply below...
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I was talking about hell as something within the theology, pointing out that many people do ascribe sending people to hell to the Christian god.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
so do you believe in God?
1) I apologize if this is a mispelled mess. My glasses are broken and I can't really see. Why am I typing now? Why not.
2) I don't insist on any properties. But a lot of other people do insist on the properties I am ascribing to the theoretical being. The god described by the vast majority of the Christian religion is not a god that would have my respect.
3) I have no idea what you are talking about here. My terms are, show me the deity. I am willing to discuss god, but until provided with evidence supporting his existence, whether it be physical or logical or whaever, all of the convesations we may have would merely be theoretical. Which is fine with me. I enjoy it.
3) I don't insist on it. But one musn't deny that alarge portion of Christians do insist that I am hell-bound unless I am saved. That is the god in question in this blog.
4) lol. If Jehova's Witnesses are the best god can or will do, then he isn't trying very hard. Taking steps means doing something that will convince people who want more than biblical evidnce.Doing something like revealing himself. Or performing a rather obvious miracle.
5) Obviously, I'm not talking about just any ol' GOD here. The blog iis talking about the Christian god, typically represented by the traits I was talking about.
"Don't Blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
"If Jehova's Witnesses are the best god can or will do, then he isn't trying very hard."
THEY are trying hard at least. LOL.
When very limited beings investigate vast things they boggle at details, and often miss the broader aspects. JW are just one way of looking at the Universe. Budhists, Jews, Christians, Deists, Jesus, Mohamed, and all devotees of same and all of the conflicting opinions collectively are still contained on a tiny planet circling a minor star in a small galaxy way off in a corner of Gods creation.
The question of hell may be very important to those afraid to go, but to a universe creator it may just be a side effect needed for a much more important aspect to work properly. I find it more productive to discuss things I know as opposed to ones I don't. I agree with you that neither of us knows anything about hell, except by rumor.
The love of the truth gives each of us every part of what we need to survive. That is a greater love than any other. The truth loves you. Do you love the truth?
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
"THEY are trying hard at least. LOL. "
lol
I don't love every truth. I don't love the truth that I'll probably be in debt after college. Or that people I know and love will die. I do, however, believe in truth as the only way to achieve the best life available. It is, love it or hate it. I suppose that I love the idea of truth, that we must always pursure it. Individual truths, however, I do not.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
is the fact that over 90% of the WORLD believe in some sort of devine being serve as enough for you? a real question.
and also over 70% of the WORLDS population believe in the same God (Lord, Yaweh, Allah)
"is the fact that over 90% of the WORLD believe in some sort of devine being serve as enough for you?"
No. If the amount of people who held a belief made it right, then the Earth used to be flat and at the center of the Universe with the Sun and Stars and planets revolving around it.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
I love how Christians blame everything on the devil.
~C
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I like how the Christian god is so stupid he can't even think of a good way to keep people from going to hell and deliberately chooses a method that would certainly keep billions of people (who simply did not hear of Jesus) away from heaven. O.o
Totally with you... it's ultimately what turned me away from Christianity, among a bunch of other, smaller things.
~C
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Btw, slightly OT, but since you're a Big Important Person here I figured I could ask you - at some point during this scholarship, are the leading bloggers going to be posted, or at least the leading number of points? Otherwise, isn't us knowing the point system kinda useless? Also, I know that I (and I'm sure many others) kind of start losing motivation after a couple weeks if we don't know that we're succeeding as far as getting the scholarship.
Yeah.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
What Jsaj said... bluntly. :)
We're not even a month in yet... be patient.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Want the highest rated list to change? RATE those blogs, then!
lol
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I'm not a big Christian...maybe a little Quaker, for the peace loving part, but definitely agnostic. Still, this comment has bothered me for a while. I don't know if calling someone's God stupid is the way to have a productive discussion. I was put off by it, and I don't have any faith to protect, so I can imagine it might have been quite hurtful to some of the Christian readers.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I apologize for that, I should've been clearer. I absolutely did NOT mean all Christians. And I suppose I shouldn't say God is stupid, because if he/she/it/they exist, they're obviously infinitely more intelligent than I. Scratch that last post, it was written in sleep-deprived frustration.
Been there, for sure.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
That Fooseball is the DEVIL! Ben Franklin didn't invent electricity, I DID! And allegators are 'onry cause of them madula oblongata.
Nicholas Aden
Self-Promotion
My Creative Writing
rofl
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
O-o-o-k, M-m-ama.
Enough already with the comments... clearly my icon says it all.
FSM and meek dog are inferior to the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
.. I'm a determined agnostic who doesn't support any organized religion. It is my personal experience/belief that the very nature of organized religion spawns feelings of exclusion and hatred, very similar to racism, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of somebody telling children what they should believe.
We should all be free to explore our spirituality without causing undue suffering on the parts of others. Maybe at some time in the future organized religions will get it together and stop the violence and drama... but until then I will continue to dislike them (not their followers/members).
We should all be free to explore our spirituality
Do you believe though that organized religion can serve as a guide line for one to search their spirituality and that organized religion can offer an option to those who are searching?
I agree with you however that religion to a point has created hatred and has created more barriers that it has dissolved (which is ironic considering what many religions instruct about an all-loving God). However, I feel like it is many of the believers themselves to create this mentality. I do not think that all sects and all religions endorse an "us vs. them" mentality.
Obviously I do not believe this... which is why I don't support organized religion. But how else would people learn their "options" except by having them forced down their throat as a young child?
I think that although a religion may not overtly have an "us vs. them" mentality, the very nature of exclusion, "You are not a Buddhist like me... You are not a Jew like me... You are not a Christian like me... and therefore do not share my basic beliefs about life." results in social calamity and inequity. It is definitely the believers that create this mentality... all religions are anthropogenic, so who else?