Skeptical Bible Study: Daniel is a forgery -- Conclusion

Darwins Beagle's picture
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This is my final installment in the evaluation of the book of Daniel. I will leave links to the other parts at the end of this blog.

Was Daniel really written in the 6th Century BCE? Daniel is presented as the author. He is portrayed as a major official in the administration of Nebuchadrezzar, Belshazzar, and Darius the Mede. He is also portrayed as being important during the time of Cyrus. However, even though we have numerous Babylonian records, there is no mention of anyone that is comparable to Daniel as being a high ranking member.

Furthermore, there are numerous historical errors in Daniel. In Chapter 1 Daniel gives a date for his incarceration in Nebuchadrezzar's court that is in disagreement with historical evidence. He also miscalls Nebuchadrezzar "King" when at that time he was a prince. In Chapter 4 Daniel gives an account of Nebuchadrezzar losing his mind for a period of time in which he lives, sleeps and eats in the field with the cattle. No such episode is recorded in history. In Chapter 5 Daniel refers to Belshazzar as king and Nebuchadrezzar's son even though Belshazzar was never king and was not related to Nebuchadrezzar at all. Also in Chapter 5 Daniel says that Belshazzar is killed in a violent action when Darius the Mede conquers Babylon. But it was Cyrus, a Persian, who conquered Babylon and he did so bloodlessly. There was no historical Darius the Mede.

If an historical Daniel existed, then these gross historical mistakes made by Daniel must have been intentional. But why? There is no motive for this. It would only serve to make his prophecies be ridiculed. If on the other hand, the mistakes are unintentional, Daniel was written by someone with a poor knowledge of the history of the 6th Century BCE era.

However, whoever wrote it had an excellent knowledge of the history of the area from the time of Alexander to that Antiochus IV. Note how the King of the North/King of the South prophecy fits in perfect chronological order with the actual events during that time. Is it reasonable to believe that a 6th century author would be so wrong about his own history, but so right about the history that is to come 300 to 400 years later? Or is it more reasonable to assume that the reason the author of the story knew the history of that time so much better is because that is the time he wrote it? Then, why was it that the prophecy suddenly started making wrong predictions again sometime between 165 and 164BCE? Was it that even though there is no logical break in the story, this actually refers to events that have not yet happened. Or could it be that the author was actually making guesses that failed to pan out about what would happen in the near future?

Does it make sense that events which are never seen in modern times – supernaturally transmitted information in dreams and by visions, people being magically saved from fiery furnaces and lions’ dens, people being supernaturally driven crazy for being too prideful, and supernatural writing of messages on a wall – actually happened in a more superstitious culture? Or perhaps, these are legends that may have been passed down and were adapted to convince the faithful of the rightfulness of holding onto their faith during a period of severe prosecution? Does it make sense that Daniel would be given prophecies of end times that are to take place several thousand years later? Especially, considering that the archangel Gabriel said to keep them secret until the end-times and they were only kept secret apparently 300 to 400 years. For that matter, does it make sense that Daniel was given prophecies of end times that were to come true in 300 to 400 years? Or is it more likely that someone writing 300 to 400 years later would make use of the his knowledge of history to add validity to his “prophecies” and give hope to people of his own time that were suffering terrible persecution that he was sure his god would soon deliver them from?

Thus either Daniel was written by a 6th century BCE prophet who wrote horribly of the history of his own times, or it was a forgery written by a 2nd century BCE pious Jew who along with his people was suffering terrible persecution under the rule of Antiochus IV. For me the answer is obvious – it was written by a 2nd century BCE Jew -, but each reader must make up her own mind.

Implications of Daniel being a forgery

If Daniel is a forgery as most scholars who are not extreme bible-believers think, what does that mean for the bible? There is a school of thought it means nothing. God could have inspired a 2nd century BCE pious Jew as well as a 6th century BCE prophet. But it is hard to see why God would have inspired a 2nd century BCE Jew to write so inaccurately about the history of the 6th century BCE. This doesn’t make the writing more believable. It doesn’t set an example of good morals. All it does is give a person a reason to not believe. I do not think that is the intention God would have in mind.

Another school of thought says it means very little. If one part of the bible is faked, it doesn’t mean that all of it would be. However, it does put all the rest of the bible open to doubt. If one part is wrong and many people were fooled for many years, then other parts could be wrong as well. Indeed, Daniel is not the only suspected forgery. The book of Isaiah is thought to have been written by at least two and probably three different people, hundreds of years apart. The first five books of Moses are not thought to be written by Moses. Psalms is not written by David. The Song of Solomon is not written by Solomon. Virtually every book of the bible has places in it that are thought to have changes (interpolations) from the original transcripts. How does one determine which parts of the bible are divinely inspired and which are not? There is no standardization anymore, everything becomes subject to individual interpretation (which is not so far off from what is actually taking place amongst many Christian sects).

A final school of thought is that it means quite a bit. The prophecies in Daniel have been used as evidence for the existence of God by extreme bible-believers for a long time. Many very imaginative scenarios have been and are still being made to fit the end-time prophecies with events of more modern times. Claims are made that Daniel accurately predicted Persian rule of Babylon, Alexander the Great, the Maccabean uprising, the ministry and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and the rule of the Roman Empire. Some extreme bible-believers have even staked their faith on Daniel. Josh McDowell, one of the most prominent of the extreme bible-believer apologists, noting the references to Daniel’s prophecies in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14, and Jesus’ own references to himself as the “Son of Man” (which McDowell feels is an obvious reference to Daniel’s prophecies) says, “Now if Christ were mistaken about the Book of Daniel, then He must also have been mistaken about his own identity. And if this be so, it follows that the Christian faith may be called into question. At stake is the very trustworthiness of Christ’s statements concerning our own faith and salvation through Him”.

Of course, McDowell doesn’t end up questioning his faith, instead he and other extreme bible-believers ends up affirming Daniel. They do so at the price of making up a siege of Jerusalem in 605 BCE when every historical indication is that there never was one. They do so at the price of credulously believing as fact stories that God would supernaturally help Daniel and three of his friends while at the same time letting a whole nation go into slavery for several generations. They do so by believing that when Belshazzar is referred to as Nebuchadrezzar’s son, Daniel really meant one of several successors to Nebuchadrezzar. They do so by believing that when Belshazzar is called king, Daniel really meant co-regent along with Nabonidus.

Extreme bible-believers affirm the inerrancy of the bible by allowing Darius the Mede, to be someone other than Darius and someone other than a Mede. They affirm the inerrancy of the bible by making up a Medo-Persian empire that never existed in fact. They affirm the inerrancy of the bible by claiming that this Medo-Persian empire was inferior to that Babylon, even though the Persian part of that empire would have been three times as large and lasted twice as long. They affirm the inerrancy of the bible by claiming that when the bible says that the very night King Belshazzar was violently killed in Babylon and Darius the Mede took over is actually the same day that Cyrus’s troops peacefully marched into the city with their swords sheathed.

They say that Darius the Mede could have had a father named Xerxes, even though the Xerxes referred to elsewhere in the bible came many years later and was the son of Darius. They say that when Daniel says there will be four Persian kings, he is only referring to the most important four of the actual nine Persian kings and they disagree as to which of the nine Persian kings are the main four.

In short, ironically these very people who say that God is responsible for every word and every punctuation mark in the bible and that the bible is meant to be taken literally, hold this belief by insisting that the bible means very different things than what it actually says.

What bible-believers never seem to be able to face up to is the fact that if Daniel is a forgery then the most likely explanation is that Yahweh, the god of the bible, does not exist. Since Yahweh is not supposed to cause confusion and is all-powerful and he loves us and has a message for us, he should have wanted that message to be clear and he should have had the power to make it so. There should be no forgeries in his canon. There should be no errors in his canon. Historically, we should be confirming, not casting doubt on the bible. Scientifically, we should be confirming, not outright contradicting the bible. Morally, we should see the best and most logical behavior on the part of God, not example after example of capriciousness, vindictiveness, unfairness, and maliciousness that need special pleadings and denials even worse than what is done by extreme bible-believers concerning Daniel to explain away.

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Links to the other blogs in this series:

http://www.progressiveu.org/144926-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-is-a-for...

http://www.progressiveu.org/115341-daniel-is-a-forgery-chapter-1-daniel-...

http://www.progressiveu.org/131001-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-and-nebu...

http://www.progressiveu.org/114050-skeptical-bible-study-shadrach-mescha...

http://www.progressiveu.org/083011-skeptical-bible-study-chapter-4-danie...

http://www.progressiveu.org/155209-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chapter-...

http://www.progressiveu.org/170336-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chapter-...

http://www.progressiveu.org/132214-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chapter-...

http://www.progressiveu.org/150906-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chapter-...

http://www.progressiveu.org/103755-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chap-9-t...

http://www.progressiveu.org/230114-skeptical-bible-study-daniel-chaps-10...

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trophy's picture

Is this part of the apocrapha? I thought htey were all storeis like the myths that talked about Zeus and Hermes and all them

"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool."
Lord Chesterfield

"The doors of wisdom are never shut."
Benjamin Franklin

Darwins Beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

No, Daniel is part of the Hebrew bible aka the Old Testament among Christians.

Cheers,

Darwin's Beagle

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

kiz8lynn's picture

What sources have you considered in coming to this conclusion? I would be interested to hear more about your background of study in this area and what implications you draw from your ideas.

You make quite a few statements like "the Psalms were not written by David, Song of Solomon was not written by Solomon" as if that is common knowledge. I think that if you are going to argue such a broad rebuttal, perhaps with the idea to question the authority of the Bible, that's fine, but it's hard to take it seriously when you have so few sources, and the only sources you use are secondary or less formal.

Also, your language is very antagonizing. Using the term "Extreme- Bible believing people" repeatedly in reference for (I assume) Christians who believe in the authority of scripture is going to make a large portion of your potential audience (a person believing in the authority of scripture is not an uncommon position to hold in the U.S.). Are there any specific authors or articles you are referring to? that material would be of interest, but what you have written here, seems generalized and for the most to me.

Your article takes the tone of an a cynical person with a biased agenda when it doesn't have to... I don't really buy what you're saying but I think it's an interesting discourse. I am not trying to shut you down, rather, I'd like to hear your ideas with a better argument.

Darwins Beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

(1) There are a lot of claims that extreme bible believers make. The traditional attributions of authorship is one of them that cannot be substantiated. Both Psalm and Song of Solomon have references to the exilic period, 400+ years after David and Solomon.

(2) I defined the terms "extreme bible-believers" and "extreme bible-doubters" in the opening post of this series. Extreme bible-believers are those that believe every word of the bible is divinely inspired and literally true. Extreme bible-doubters believe nothing in the bible is divinely inspired. I am an extreme bible-doubter.

(3) The bulk of my historical information is derives from the Anchor Bible. This is an encylopedia-like compendium of the bible with essays on the history of the time. I do not own this and it isn't on line. It was not easy get access to it when I first gathered information for this post several years ago. Here is a list of some links that I used as well, in fact it was these that directed me to the Anchor Bible:

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1996/4/4danie96.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1998/4/984bad.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1998/5/985good.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1998/2/982dan.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/3/013front.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/4/014dan.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/1/001dan.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1993/3/3myth93.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/bernard_katz/critic.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/2/012front.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/6/006dan.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1998/6/986lions.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/indef/4d.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1999/2/992dan.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/5/015dan.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1998/6/986front.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1999/4/994know.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/1/011dan.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2001/3/013dan.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2002/4/024gold.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1999/3/993straw.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gerald_larue/otll/chap29.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/2/002what.html

http://www.tektonics.org/af/danieldefense.html

http://www.bible-infonet.org/FF/articles/apologetics/108_04_10.htm

That should do for now.

Cheers,

Darwin's Beagle

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

smarterthantheaveragebear's picture

Did you see the review of this reference "The Anchor Bible" that you are talking about:

"
4 of 23 people found the following review helpful:
Let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die- the Apostle Paul, November 13, 2003
By Richard (Callahan, FL United States) - See all my reviews
I am shocked at modern scholarly commentary. First the dating was amazing, dating this book to be from around the time of 180 B.C., some three hundred to four hundred years later than previous believed. Then I quickly realized why, for the prophecies to be true in Daniel 11, one must have faith and realize how awesome and perfect and holy the Bible is for history to be predicted so precisely, or one can simply say the propecies were written after, making void the gorgeous genius of the Author and Savior Jesus Christ. Also there are many more things shocking about the edition, saying that the Son of Man written about wasn't referring to the Lord Jesus Christ at all. What? My question is summed up in the opening title. If you believe that the Bible is just some loose collection of historical annotations by pious man, then why bother reading it? If this book is not the infallible and Holy and Perfect Word of the One and Only God Almighty then why waste the energy? If the truth isn't the truth then I want nothing to do with it; I'll quit all things to do with the faith and and spend every waking minute finding earthly pleasure and committing crimes. Why not? As Paul said, if we believe these things in vain, we are most to be pitied above all men. It's crazy to follow a religion you don't believe in, but if you do believe, Aristotle's law of contradiction applies; i.e., the Word of God cannot not be the Word of God, and if it is the Word of God, then it must be treated as such, and to question every prophecy, dumb-down and pragmatize every allegory and mysterious thing, to give some scientific explanation for anything awe-inspiring, is to assert that a finite man knows more about the book then the One and Only God knows, the very One who created trees, ink, the universe, Daniel the man, Daniel the book, heaven, and hell. Jesus the Saviour said call no one on earth father, for one is your father (God), no one on earth leader, for one is your leader (Jesus), and no one your teacher, for one is your teacher (the Holy Spirit, and the Three are One). John said in 1 John that the annointing you received (i.e., the Holy Spirit) causes you to have need to be taught by no one. Forget scholarship, commentary, priests, pastors, popes, and the like, buy an interlinear copy of the Greek New Testament (such as George Berry's with strong's numbering and two Greek dictionaries in the back), have faith that Jesus wrote every word, and be taught from the great and Eternal Spirit of Truth and Love and Knowledge and Wisdom; for you are to answer to Him on the day of Judgment, and not to earthly scribes. The Pope claims to be infallible [also note in the book of Matthew at the ordaining of the first pope, i.e., Jesus calling Peter the Rock and giving him the keys of the kingdom(if you believe that to be the interpretation), that a few verses later He called Him Satan- Matt. 16:23, showing that even if there was such a thing as a Pope, we wouldn't be infallible], but the Bible isn't? As Paul said, they wish to shut you out, so that you will seek them. Do not seek them, seek Jesus, "for whoever cofesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead, shall be saved" (Romans 10:9). And again, "everyone, whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Joel 3:5). I love you all very much in Jesus; sincerely, a concerned brother -Col. 1:9

This is the Amazon customer review for the Anchor Bible on Daniel.

"Put your faith completely in Jesus Christ, not in any man or any movement."
~ Robert L. Sumner

Darwins Beagle's picture

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