Here goes the first post here. First of all I'd like, before I go into my seemingly anti-fundamentalist musings, to say that I do consider myself a Christian. I'm not exactly a "Bible-Thumper", but my relationship with God is important to me. However, besides my endless issues with the Church, I have recently begun to ponder another issue.
I was raised, as most Christians are, to believe that sex outside of marriage is immoral. I have held to this belief for many, many years. Even though I have had slip-ups, I have always still believed that non-marital sex was in violation of God's will. But I have begun to wonder- is it? There are plenty of Biblical passages regarding marriage and divorce, I have not found any that specifically address the concept of sex outside of marriage. There are passages that rebuke prostitution and adultery, but they don't speak of two people in love (or maybe not for that matter) that have sex that are not married.
Naturally, being a man I enjoy sex. I have yet to find a woman that I have felt like marrying. I hope to at some point, but is it all that immoral to explore the sexual universe until then?
I know. This sounds a lot like the serpent in the garden, "Did God really say- " Yet this doesn't seem as cut and dry. In fact, many principles in the Bible aren't as cut and dry as most fundamentalist Christians believe. God says "Thou shalt not kill", but in other places initiates war. I hold to the passage of Ecclesiastes that speaks of "a time for everything." I think there is a time for sex for sex's sake and a time for monogomous commitment. It's not quite like it was thousands of years ago before we had condoms and birth control pills. If a person is sexually responsible, why shouldn't they do it?
If a person is responsible and safe, I don't feel like there's any reason why they shouldn't have sex. I definitely don't think its immoral to have sex outside of marriage. Some people never find someone they want to marry. Other people commit themselves to one person, but never marry them.
Common sense is as rare as genius. ~Emerson
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Well, we Christians aren't really supposed to get divorced either. So, really, if you don't explore your options before getting married, you could just be stuck with a life time of bad sex.
Seriously, though, I don't find anything immoral about premarital sex. Just be responsible about it. :-)
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The bible and religion has never been and will never be cut and dry. The bible preachs "thou shall not kill" but what does Daivd one of bible heros do? He kills Goliath. Think about the great bible kinds like Solomon. In the bible it said he had hundreds of wives, and even more concubines. If he was sleeping with his concubines, isnt that sex outside of marriage?
If both people are responcible, then sex outside marriage is not something that we should be condemned for. In our common time, we consiter it best to wait for marriage. We look down on people who are married by 18 or even 20. So if we're waiting long for marriage, thats a long time to wait for sex.
As humans we are sexual creatures. To deny that would be lying. People need an outlet of all they desire rots them. Why do you thing there has been so many problems with our priests. We have to remember their only human. Living chaste lives, expecially in our society, is not healthy for many.
So dont feel bad. I doubt you'll feel gods rath for following you heart.
Sex before marriage, willingly, was considered adultery. See Deuteronomy 22... it talks about a virgin lying with a man when she's betrothed in the city, and outside the city. The rationale is that if she's in the city, she should have cried out, and since she didn't, she's a willing participant.
Of course, this isn't exactly like what you're talking about, I just wanted to throw it out there, especially since I just read it.
~C
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"Betrothed" is the same thing as engaged, which inherently is adultery, which I covered in my original post.
If you read the passages, you'd also find that if she weren't betrothed, she would have to marry the man she had sex with.
But thanks for the definition...
~C
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I heard in a discussion that the technical definition of adultary is sex with a person you're not married to, and adultery is condemned in the ten commandments.
Like what you've read? Well, then here's more:
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/tricia0711
Everywhere in the Bible that the word "fornication" is used it is referring to sex outside of marriage that isn't specifically adultery. So, there's plenty in there about it.
Oddly enough, my teenage son and I were discussing this a couple of weeks ago. I told him that God wasn't against pleasure, but he was against anything that would turn into a consuming obsession that pulled us away from him. I also told my son that one of the reasons why God would be against pre-marital sex was that once you've created a memory with such intense emotional ties it's nearly impossible to erase it, so in the end there's going to be times when you'll be with your wife but be remembering the time you were with "Betty". According to several passages in The Bible this constitues adultery.
There's nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home.--Nikki Sixx
I believe it is fine for other people to do as they please. But my own personal belief is it should be someone special that you care about and love. This is just what my mother taught me...
Of course it does not always work out that way, but for me sex is only meaningful if you care for the person. For guys it is different alot of the time. Speaking from a women's point of view I would rather limit the numbers..but this is coming from someone who has only been with one person for 3 years.
I would not worry about it though your a guy do what you want to do. waiting until marriage sometimes is overrated and not always possiable. I do not think God will punish you for this anyway. I sometimes believe the bible has flaws about certain things. I question it quite I bit. But I believe in God and that is all that matters. :)
Like I said before do as you please... just be safe! :)
http://www.progressiveu.org/032913-lupus-uncureable-wait-what
Love comments? I do too!
I beklieve that sex before marriage is wrong, and punishable. The bible is pretty clear about it, as was mentioned earlier- fornication refers to sex before marriage. I know I'm old fashioned; and one of the most conservative people on the site; but that is what I believe and you were asking for opinions.
Punishable how? Just curious.
~C
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To those who will get angry by what I am about to say, don't jump on me. I know I have different views than most people on this site; but I believe that sex before marriage is both punishable in this life and in the next. In this life it is damaging to your spirit. You've broken one of God's laws; and just like when you steal, or murder, you are numbing yourself to recieving further revelation from God. The more often you break our Heavenly Father's laws, the harder it becomes to distinguish right and wrong. In the next life; it is up to Christ, our advocate with the father to decide our punishment from God. I'm not so arrogant to think I know what those specific punishments will be; other than not reaching your fullest potential in the next life. Let me end all of this by saying that I also believe completely in the power of repentance. We can repent of our sins and free ourselves from them. Please, all of those people that judge the religious, leave me alone, I know you think I have "blind faith". I know I don't. I have prayed and recieved confirmation for every single thing I believe and I don't care whether that's good enough for you or not. It's good enough for me. People preach acceptance but then they try to crucify those with conservative ideals, and I really don't want to start one of those long fights I often see on the site. I respect that many believe differently than me and I expect the same from others.
...then why would any of the rest of us be concered with your point of view? The answer of course is because you are actually advocating for some type of non-specific "punishment" that would be inflicted on the rest of us "in this life." If your opinion was limited just to yourself, or even just to those who share your religious beliefs, I wouldn't have any serious issue with what you said. But since you are implying that even the two-thirds of the world that isn't christian should be punished in accordance with YOUR religious beliefs, I have to say that comments seems (philosophically) out-of-line, especially when you compare someone who has sex outside of marriage to murderers and thieves. Murder and theft are inherently characterized by a lack of consent by the victim. Thus, it is reasonable to say that those who commit murder and theft should be punished. If you hang around for very long here at ProU, you will likely find that comparisons tend to fall short in discussions with the non-christian members of this site, who tend to require something a bit more substantial and objective than "god says so" in a counter-point.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Actually, blackout, I think she's just really sharing her beliefs. She wouldn't have gone into specifics if I hadn't asked her, and her idea of punishment isn't a physical punishment, and thus cannot be enacted on anyone. It seems she thinks more along the lines that people who have sex before marriage ultimately punish themselves, whether through guilt or losing their moral compass. She can believe that all she wants; that doesn't make it true for everyone.
~C
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I have been around the site for a while and frankly I've noticed your bigoted comments towards Christians. Thanks to mvenus, she was exactly right. I expounded because I was asked to, and as she said; the punishment I believe in is the punishment of losing yourself to sin. I think you just want to pick a fight and therefore I am officially done with this particular conversation. You preach tolerance...but only if you agree with it. I presented my views as opinions; firm opinions yes, but still opinions, I did not attack those who believe otherwise (until you attacked me) and I bet you would be a lot happier if you tried to do the same thing. One of the most gratifying things I have ever experienced is to be able to not only coexist, but develop friendships with those who are different from me; this includes atheists, wicken, jewish, and those Christians who don't believe my particular sect of Christianity is Christian. As long as we respect each others differences and focus on our similarities we can overcome those hot-button topics -notice I didn't say avoid them, but overcome them - by being able to discuss with respect rather than completely discount anothers views. If you would like to discuss this topic without judging me and telling me what I am "actually" trying to say; I would be happy to re-enter the conversation.
I suggest that it is not.
I have been around the site for a while and frankly I've noticed your bigoted comments towards Christians.
Unless you can be more specific, I can only respond by observing that the "bigoted comments towards Christians" of which you accuse me are usually nothing more than my application of the same standards of reason and evidence to the positions of chirstians that anyone else would be expected to abide by were the topic of discussion anything other than christian theology.
Thanks to mvenus, she was exactly right. I expounded because I was asked to, and as she said; the punishment I believe in is the punishment of losing yourself to sin. I think you just want to pick a fight and therefore I am officially done with this particular conversation.
That's interesting, because you obviously expected that your comments would be perceived as provocative. This is apparent because you perfaced your comment with, "To those who will get angry by what I am about to say..."
You preach tolerance...but only if you agree with it.
Actually, I'm extremely tolerant of those who live in accordance with their own beliefs but who ALSO leave everyone else alone to do the same. Some people--namely those who have a less developed passion for reasoned debate--confuse the application of the standards of rational arguments to their arguments as "intolerance." It is not.
I presented my views as opinions; firm opinions yes, but still opinions, I did not attack those who believe otherwise (until you attacked me) and I bet you would be a lot happier if you tried to do the same thing. One of the most gratifying things I have ever experienced is to be able to not only coexist, but develop friendships with those who are different from me; this includes atheists, wicken, jewish, and those Christians who don't believe my particular sect of Christianity is Christian. As long as we respect each others differences and focus on our similarities we can overcome those hot-button topics -notice I didn't say avoid them, but overcome them - by being able to discuss with respect rather than completely discount anothers views.
Horseapples. Comparing people to murderers and thieves doesn't seem very "respectful" to me. Nor does suggesting that those who don't share your dogmatic views of sex are unable to "distinguish right and wrong." Comments like this are dismissive and insulting, and discount the views of others in stark hypocrisy of your complaint, above. I also am very skeptical that you take these tactics with your "friends," or if you do I doubt that your "friends" take kindly to your judgments.
If you would like to discuss this topic without judging me and telling me what I am "actually" trying to say; I would be happy to re-enter the conversation.
If you would like to discuss this topic further, I would suggest that you provide a rational defense of your position. Specifically, what is your evidence that people who violate the religious tenets of christianity (and especially the two-thirds of the world that is NOT christian) are increasingly unable to "distinguish right and wrong." It would also be helpful if you provided SOME kind of evidence that would seriously suggest that the entire basis for your beliefs about sex resulting in punishment, i.e. your belief in spirits and a "next life." I am especially interested in your claim that, "I have prayed and recieved confirmation for every single thing I believe..." This is a common anti-intellectual dodge used by christians to avoid having to provide a rational defense of their beliefs, and unless you can defend this statement, I see no reason to treat your comments with any more respect than we would someone who claims that their beliefs are beamed into their heads by lizard people from another dimension.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Party of Fear vs. Party of Hate
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the ProU community.
Even though I have had slip-ups, I have always still believed that non-marital sex was in violation of God's will...If a person is sexually responsible, why shouldn't they do it?
The problem you're facing is grounded in the fact that you are judging yourself against an arbitrary code of "morality" that is dogmatically associated with the beliefs of a particular religion. If you're asking for a way to justify having sex outside of traditional christian marriage while still adhereing to a moral code that is informed by christian theology, you're pretty much out of luck. Theological codes are based on the (albeit irrational) presumption of an outside authority that tells you what is or is not a "moral" action. This of course presents a problem in cases like this, when the dogma doesn't necessarily make sense to a modern adult who isn't living in a war-like, nomadic, bronze-age desert clan.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Party of Fear vs. Party of Hate
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the ProU community.
Naturally, being a man I enjoy sex.
Pretty sure women do too.
Anyways, I hope you find a solution that makes sense to you. Examine the issue from all sides, talk to your friends about it. If you are really ok with sex, don't let anyone else infect your joy with guilt. On the other hand if sex really bothers you then you may be better off abstaining for now.