16 Common Myths About Atheists
1. Atheists hate Christians and Christianity. No, we dont. Personally, I do hate the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion, the dishonesty of most religions, and the way that they encourage people not to think or question, and not to trust or use their minds. But I dont dislike someone just because of their religion.
2. Most atheists started out as Christians, and stopped believing because of some bad experience with other Christians. Or maybe we simply started to question, to wonder what happened when we applied the standards of logic, reason and burden of proof to religion, as we already did to everything in our lives. Or, perhaps, we were never believers at all. It happens, you know.
3. Atheists have no sense of morality, since morality comes from God. Ah, the old without fear of hell, there would be nothing to stop people from being bloodthirsty monsters argument. It may come as a surprise to most Christians, but there are reasons for being good other than fear of punishment - which isnt really a reason, anyway, and only shows Christians in a very bad light. Reasons like human empathy, genuine feelings for others, and, most importantly, rational principles. Behaving yourself just because daddy will spank you otherwise does not make you a nice child.
4. Atheists are a unified group, like a church. Are we? I must have missed the memo, then. :) If anything, Id say atheists are more diverse than Christians, because were less sheep-like, and dont accept things on faith, or from authority.
5. Atheists actually know, deep inside, that theres a God, as thats perfectly obvious; they are simply too proud and arrogant to admit the existence of something greater than themselves. Not exactly. You see, the existence of a god is only obvious if youve been brainwashed (either by others, or by your own irrationality) into believing it. We are truly convinced that theres no god, and are not in denial. Really. Im serious. :)
6. Atheists dont really know anything about Christianity. Again, it depends. Some certainly know more than others. However, religion is so ubiquitous that, like it or not, weve all had varying degrees of contact with it, with its teachings, and with believers. Besides, a lot of atheists are naturally curious. I, myself, have read the Christian Bible - more than once, in fact. Now, dear believer, ask yourself how many atheist books, magazines or essays you have read. Oh, I forgot, theyre all the work of Satan.
7. Atheists lives are cold and empty, as they cant feel the joy and love that comes only from God. Really? Id never call my life cold or empty - I have the joys of friendship, love, family, and doing the things I love to do. And, whats more, Im self-sufficient, unlike anyone who says I dont know how anyone could live without God in their lives - as many Christians do.
8. Atheists are depressive and nihilistic, since they believe theres nothing after death, and therefore theres no point to anything. On the contrary, we, unlike you, know how precious life is, because were aware that its our only one. And, this may come as a shock to you, but we can love our lives, we can feel the joy of being alive, because we dont believe that this is the devils world, or that this is just a test before the real thing. Life is precious, and its our own - not any gods.
9. Atheists are cold and uncaring. No, we are not. Having delusions doesnt make anyone more caring. And, again, we treat life as precious, and do what we can to improve it, both ours and that of our loved ones. On the other hand, many Christians believe life is suffering, and that theres nothing we can do about it.
10. Atheists are arrogant. What, because we dare to use our minds instead of asking who are we to know? No, were not.
11. Atheists want to forbid religious worship. Wrong. We just dont want to be harmed by it. Want to believe in God, Jesus, Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? Be my guest. Want to teach your kids to do the same? I feel sorry for them, but it will still take many years until people realize how crippling ones reason in childhood is like a bird crippling its offsprings wings. (*) Want to give all your money to a guy with a Lexus and a bad haircut? Fine. But dont try to save me, dont harass me in the street or at my home, dont get politicians to enact laws to give power to you, dont try to teach your religion in science classes by dishonestly giving it a new name and disguising it as science, and dont use my tax money to write your idiocies in public places. In short, do as you want, as long as you keep it to yourself - just like I dont go to your place trying to un-convert you.
12. Atheists are incapable of feeling awe at simple things, like a beautiful sunset, as they see everything in terms of cold science, instead of miracles. Ah, unweaving the rainbow - the idea that beauty and poetry only exist if we know little to nothing about how things work. But I ask you: does the fact that you know about astronomy, physics and light make the sunset any less beautiful? Was it beautiful only because it seemed magical - or an act of god - to you?
13. Atheists live their lives in constant fear of death. Few people actually want to die - those that do are either depressed and suicidal, or are Christians who believe that the world is evil, please, Lord Jesus, take me, and all that. A reasonable fear of death is perfectly natural. Also, we may believe that this life is it, which makes us treat it as precious, but, at least, we dont think that theres a chance of going to a place where you burn and are tortured for eternity
14. Most criminals are atheists (or, alternatively, the percentage of atheists among criminals is higher than among the general populace). Oddly enough, the opposite is true.
15. Atheists are stubborn and closed-minded. Not unless you define closed-minded like this. But, as Ebon said, Ask any believer what would convince him he was mistaken and persuade him to leave his religion and become an atheist, and if you get a response, it will almost invariably be, Nothing - I have faith in my god. Although such people may well exist, I personally have yet to meet a theist who would acknowledge even the possibility that his belief was in error. Many theists, by their own admission, structure their beliefs so that no evidence could possibly disprove them. Atheists, on the other hand, are easy to convince - all it requires is for God to show himself in some unfakeable way - say, for instance, by doing any of the many things he supposedly did in the Old Testament
16. Atheists make bad parents. Again, there are good and bad atheist parents, and good and bad Christian parents. Atheist parents, however, would never do what Abraham was about to do to his son Isaac (and Christians see Abrahams behavior as laudable!), because, to most atheists, our lives are our own. In fact, even if there was a God, it would not follow that our lives are his.
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loved it
especially #6-I know more about christianity than most christians do. I know just as much about catholisism, it is always fun to be able to say 'i dont believe in god' and when they start preaching to me-point out that they are wrong because i know more about their own religion than they do.
If you know so much about Christianity, then why do you classify the Catholic Church as something separate from Christianity? The Romach Catholic Church was the first Christian group that ever existed--all other Christian denominations came later.
They're also not necessarily wrong just because you "know more than they do". It's true--and sad--most people calling themselves Christians don't live a Christian life or know enough about the religion they say they follow, but their lack of knowledge does not automatically make you right.
--
~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
Points 6 and 10 are not myths. Few atheists know enough about Christianity to be able to provide a legit argument, and it is arrogant to assume having read the Bible immediately makes you an expert on Christianity.
There are a lot of laughable myths about Christians as well. I guess assumptions about The Other go both ways.
How can you say that is not a myth?
Show me some proof that atheists don't know enough about the bible/christianity.
An atheist who has made up his mind reads the Bible with a critical eye, condescendingly and all too eager to prove it wrong. Instead of trying to remain open-minded and see the points the Bible is trying to make, he is very selective, taking two different passages written in different contexts and cries joyfully, "Aha! See that? The Bible is contradicting itself!"
An even worse atheist thinks he can randomly quote the Bible to attack Christianity, but seriously. Can an atheist know more about the Bible than a true Christian (think one of the more intelligent Christians, not one of those lemmings)? If another atheist throws in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” (Matthew 7:12) in a gay marriages debate, I'll cry.
Furthermore, reading the Bible alone does not suddenly make you an expert on Christianity. You also need to live as a Christian to have a better understanding of it. Even serious Christians who have studied the Bible for a decade are wary about making such claims. How can you be so arrogant because you have read the Bible more than once? (Maybe twice? thrice?)
Now let's take a die-hard Bible literalist and shove him a paper on the evolution theory. Chances are he will reject it because the evolution theory is over his head. But explain to him how real scientists (and not one of those pro-evolution lemmings) view evolution. Explain to him the terms he doesn't understand (phenotype? mutation? phylogeny? what's that?). Take him to a lab and let him experience with genes. He may have a better understanding of science and can even become--gasp--a little more open-minded, but I sure hope he won't go around claiming he knows everything there is to know about science.
By what you wrote, I'm assuming you don't know too many Atheists. One of the biggest ongoing debates I've ever been in on an Atheist forum is "Did Jesus really exist?" Meaning, even those who don't believe in any god or goddess can't agree on Jesus.
If you take away god, what are you left with? Your left with what most would call philosophy. I personally didn't read the bible all the way though. I tried when I was 10 and I couldn't get past the parts where children were murdered. I guess because I could relate to the children. Even so, I was pushed to read and watch biblical movies. So if there is any religion I know most about, it's christianity.
However, what you're stating is another myth. To understand Atheism you'd have to first start out a knowledge thirsty believer (whatever god you believe in, it doesn't really matter). I started out with mythology, went on to other sects of Christianity, and it went on from there.
I have more to say but I have to go, so I'll have to come back to this. Either way, start educating yourself of things you don't understand. Especially before you spout off about them like you know what you're talking about.
~AtheistMommy
www.atheistmommydiary.blogspot.com
You mean, just like you need to educate yourself on Christianity before you spout off things against its God.
Ya know..that was entirely unnecesary.
First of all-this post was not ALL about christians. It was about atheists. Quit acting like christians are the center of the world.
YOU need to take your own advice. First of all-consider where an atheist comes from in their views. Second of all-realize that YOU do not know EVERYTHING about god, the bible, or the christian religion. And it is a fact-that not every atheist knows nothing about the bible or god or any of that other stupid crap. How do I know it is a fact? BECAUSE I KNOW ABOUT IT. As does my boyfriend.
OPEN
YOUR
MIND
Just an idea. Because ya know-the bible says to RESPECT ALL RELIGIONS.
Exactly what is it you would like to know about christianity?
~AtheistMommy
www.atheistmommydiary.blogspot.com
www.cafepress.com/ftlshop
You are quite biased and wrong in your accusations.
-Most atheists are not born into atheism (not around our age range yet). So YES we can read the bible without a critical eye. I have never fully read the bible-but I have read quite a bit of it, that is what comes of growing up in a catholic home. However-I do not believe any of it. And no-i'm not saying reading the bible makes you an expert on christianity-first of all-chritians are not the only ones that read the bible. Other religions do too.
I do not claim to know it all-but you-as a christian-accuse me of claiming that I do, because you cannot open your mind for a minute.
I have more arguments than I can count against a christian or a catholic because I know more of the bible than they do. And it isn't a face of "being an expert on christianity" it is a matter of being more knowledgable. They claim their lives to this book, yet most of the time don't know the half of what it says.
So based on my earlier reply, how did you figure out that I'm a Christian and I'm thoroughly biased because of that? Or did you just assume everyone who is not against Christianity must be a Christian?
I did not assume your last statement. You are attacking me for no reason here. Calm down a bit and open your mind.
I figured out you were a christian by the way you spoke. Claiming that all atheists know nothing about the bible and that they can't possibly understand the christian religion until they lived it. Certainly you wouldn't claim that you have to live it to know it without doing that yourself?
I love you.
Definitely a great piece.
Its interesting how in every points you some how find a way to put down christians.
As to #5
Romans 1
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made
When you read this post, you've got to keep in mind that most Atheists are ex-Christians. So if it appears as if Atheists are angry or have some kind of anger against Christianity in any way, that is the reason. If you'd like to know more about me, read my other post "Who Am I."
~AtheistMommy
www.atheistmommydiary.blogspot.com
I'm so confused, before I read this post it said there were 3 new comments. Once this page came up there was only one new reply.
I'm hoping you were trying to be funny. Most of this is pretty shallow logic. To be fair, we'll give it a thorough analysis:
1. Good. I also hate the atrocities committed in the name of religion.
2. So, when you started to question, how thorough of an analysis was it you made? Because when I had questions and did a thorough analysis (stretching over the past six years), I found the evidence for Christianity to be very solid (more on this later). Or are you one that never believed? Fair enough, though it is interesting. Modern science has fairly well demonstrated what Christian's have always claimed: that man is wired to naturally beleive in a deity.
3. What Christian's are you speaking of? The Christian who doesn't do bad out of fear of punishment is a fool. First, Christians are not supposed to avoid bad. They are to seek good. The difference is pretty significant. Second, Biblically, the motivation is not fear of punishment. Its a sense of obligation to serve and honor God after what He has done for the Christian. But you knew, that, right? You did read the Bible twice.
4. Granted, Atheists are not all a unified body. Though several such bodies exist (secular humanism being one). You keep talking about "taking things on faith." I think you misunderstand this (a lot of "Christians" do too, so don't feel too bad). Faith, in the New Testament, is not a blind belief in something you can't see. The Greek word means that you are completely convinced of something (usually by evidence) and that because of that it changes your perspectives. I don't advocate Christians simply accepting things because "that's just how it is." Christians should be intellectually inquisitive, like everyone. There are some things we won't understand, like some aspects of cosmology or chemisty are not completely understandable (or at least to the average person). But an effort should be made.
5. So again, how thorough was this analysis? As to the arrogance, most atheists I know are exceedingly arrogant. Don't want to make a generalization, but its been my experience that its true. For that matter, from your writing I'd call you arrogant (don't mean to be rude). So... was this a statement calling for an end to stereotypes in general or what?
6. I don't have an exact figure for how much atheist material I've studied, but alot. By studied, I don't mean just read. I mean actually analyzed. I've done my research. Good job on your part reading the Bible. Twice, eh? Better off than most Christians in this culture (the Church in America is in pathetic condition, I'll be the first to admit). But did you get anthing out of it? Cause I'm not seeing a lot of that coming out in your post here...
7. That's intersting. I can't argue much with your personal statement, assuming its true.
8. Assuming your total control over your life is the ultimate arrogance.
What Christians do you know who do not value life? I would seriously doubt the truthfullness of their faith. Life is the most precious gift of God to any Christian.
9. There is a lot of things in life we can't control. Yes, we do have to deal with that. To assume you don't is part of that ultimate arrogance I mentioned above. Delusions? What prompts comassion in a Christian is a desire to share the love given him. Someone giving their life for you is a tremendous gift of love. In response it deserves compassion given to others. I don't see where in that logic it excludes atheists from not having compassion. But I think a genuine Christian feels a stronger need to display it.
10. I've already discussed this. All I have to add is that you are making a faulty assumption by saying Christians do not use their minds.
11. How are you harmed by religious beliefs? Does the practice of religion when you're around increase your chances of being struck by lightning or something of the like? Don't be rediculous, I thought you were using your mind. And if a religious ceremony performed in front of you offends you to the point of causing harm, then you need to get a backbone. Or move to France, they don't seem to need them there. Now, I do agree with you in saying that religion and poltics should be kept separate. But you seem to be taking this to an extreme. Are we, in a free country that protects the right to practice religion, to be forbidden to carry out that practice in public? Are religious groups to be forbidden to assemble or meet outside of specially designated areas? Sounds to me like Stalinist Russia.
It also sounds to me like you were one of those guys who had a bad experience with Chrisitianity. Were you harrassed by some evangelist? I apolgize, they were out of line. Were you disturbed by a corrupt church leader? I despise them too. True Chrisitianity is not a path to wealth. Its a life of service to make life better for others.
12. I have a fairly extensive knowledge of physics and it does nothing to effect my appreciation for natural beauty. However, my appreciation adds another twist as appreciation for the creativity of my God. I also feel the natural world screams the message of His existence. You dismissed Inteligent Design as religion in disguise. You may be correct in your title. But that's a week argument. So what? The statistical evidence that supports ID is farily strong. While I agree with critics who say writing what we don't know off as divine is bad science, I think some of the specific arguments within ID are amazing. The natural world demonstrates an order and specificity that speaks of a designer.
13. Did you actually read the Bible twice? Cause it considers this life very precious. While there is the promise of a greater reward after death, the focus is here. Christians believe they are here for a reason, and their not going to meakly cry to be taken away. Not unless their convinced that reason has been accomplished.
14. First, define criminals. Second, note how many of them are madmen or otherwise not all there.
15. Ok, now is where I get the evidence I promised earlier. First, let me say Christians should be very open to examing their faith, and any you know who are afraid to do so are rather feeble.
The evidence for Christianity is amazing. The certerpiece of Chrisitianity, is, as you should know from your readings of the Bible, the death and resurrection of Christ. This event is better supported than any other in ancient history. The support ranges from the recorded reliability of the scriptures (over 20,000 copies of the New Testament texts exist to verify its recorded accuracy as opposed to the fewer than 50 that exist for almost every other significant ancient document), to the historical reliability (many, many outside confirmations, no archaelogical find has ever contradicted them), to the writings of the Church's enemies (which essentially confirm the empty tomb and contribute strontly to the evidence for the resurrection), etc. All this very strongly supports the centerpiece of Christianity, which in turn supports the rest of the religion (further supported by archaelogy and other ancient writings).
So, how thorough was your analysis? And if God did speak to you, would you really listen? Or would you try and explain it away? Because the fact is, he has demonstrated throughout history that He exists, the evidence is all readily available. And you still call Him a myth. I tend to think that even if a booming voice came out of the sky or a little geenie popped up on your knee you would call it something else. Something you ate, or some practical joke.
16. I can't really comment on the atheist parent thing. But, your last statement is interesting. As I said earlier, we cannot believe we have absolute control over our lives. This is obviously not true. So... if a God existed, and He was the creator of the world, and by consequence the source of our life, why would it not follow that He also does have that control? And if He holds such control, are these lives ours or His?
Overall, your logic seems a bit contradictory. You claim that you are an atheist by examination of the evidence. I don't see much evidence of that. You claim to have studied Christianity. But your arguments against it seem based on the experience you have had with others. My challenge would be to examine Christianity based on what the Bible teaches, not how supposed Christians live. Chances are, they're wrong. No Christian is pefect, and they shouldn't claim to be. So if you want to see true Christianity, look at its source, not is immitation. And don't just read. Study. Examine the actual meaning in the original languages in context of the original cultures, not the faulty English translations in context of today. I think you'll come away with a different perspective. I won't claim that you'll automatically become a Christian or be so amazed that you repent. That would be arrogance on my part. But I hope you will gain a respect for what Christianty truly is.
From your display, you're as arrogant as I am if not more.
That's the funny thing about Christianity, the rules are always changing because they are based on personal perception. The majority rules, right?
The only thing my post was about are the common myths spread around by people who know nothing about Atheism. Of course, I have to give them some kind of credit, there really isn't a book to read, nothing quite like the bible. Atheism doesn't differ from person to person because it's only about one thing, lack of belief in gods and goddesses, period. The rest of what an Atheist believes is up in the air.
However, just as I cannot speak for all Atheists, you are one of millions, billions even, and cannot represent more than a small percentage, therefore cannot speak for all Christians.
I'm glad so many good Christians have come to my blog to b*tch me out. It's refreshing to see the same type of behavior I've been talking about. Thank you for proving my points.
~AtheistMommy
www.atheistmommydiary.blogspot.com
Christianity a majority? Certainly not. In its old strongholds of Europe less than 1% of the population claims Biblical Christianity. In the US, where the "Christian Conservative" movement is a major political force, evangelical Christians are estimated at only 30%.
For a post about common mythis about Atheism you spend a great deal of time discussing the "flaws" of Christianity. If I misread your intent, I apologize. But if you are going to attack what I believe using biligerant and flawed logic don't expect me to stay silent. I did not try to seem arrogant. If you interpreted my occasional wisecracks as such, I apologize for them. My personality is such that I use a great deal of sarcasm.
Now, clarify this for me, because it seems contradictory: There is no difference between atheists because they have no standard beliefs? I accept the latter readily.
And true, I cannot speak for all Christians. Nor do I claim to. However, recognize that not all who claim Christianity are truly Christians. It seems ridiculous to claim a "religion" if you do not believe what it teaches. And therefore, those Christians who do not accept the Bible and its teachings I do not consider genuine. What struck me as I read your post was that the attacks you made on "Christianity" had nothing to do with the Christianity described in the Bible.
If you are attacking hypocrtical, pharisee-like "christians" then say so. I have no problem with attacks on that group. They are perhaps the only sect of humanity that angers me to a great degree. If you intended to attack true Christianity, however, do it responisbly. If you really read the Bible twice you should be very familiar with its teachings (that is, if you studied it, skimming in English teaches nothing). In that case, your attacks are rather unacceptable.
And yes, there are divisions in Biblical Christianity. Intellectual disputes are fine. But all these divisions agree on several core principles, most prominent among them being the importance of scripture and its teachings and the role of Christ.
If your examination has been thorough and you have become an atheist, I can do nothing. I pity you about as much as you pitty those sunday school children. But I cannot convince you if you are set in your position. However, if you position is based on personal biases based on faulty representations of Biblical Christianity then I beg you to look again.
"not all who claim Christianity are truly Christians". Once you weed out all the "Pharisees", what's left, 1-2 percent? Or less? Very few who claim Christianity are going to live up fully to the standard. Of course it depends on who defines the standard, doesn't it?
I'll keep this short and sweet:
As far as your #11 goes...'Yes', Christianity is harming today's society by our government preventing scientific advancements, forcing their beliefs and 'values' on me by the laws they pass, policing the world (because, of course, our fat asses are 'right'), and basically restricting our so-called 'freedom' here in America.
As far as your so-called 'evidence' in #15, once simple sentence: 'Winner writes history." The only reason Christianity is as widespread as it is, is because Christians were the historical 'winner' and had many missionaries (and survivors and books in hotels and hangings in Salem...) to spread their plague.
Thank you, good night.
I am strongly opposed to religion as a political force. It leads to corruption in both "church" and state. So, I hear your complaints about "Christian Conservatism," and I agree. I don't think, however, that religion staying out of politics means banning religion in public places.
As to your questions about the evidence:
You would find it interesting that the majority of the documentation for Christianity is dated from long before Christianity became a political force in Rome. Virtually all of the 20,000 Greek texts I spoke of are from before the 3rd Century AD, several hundred of them from within 100 years of the original writings in the area of 30-60AD. This is based on authentication by believers and non-believers alike. Further, most of the archaelogical finds supporting Chrisitanity have been made by non-Christians out to discredit the Bible.
Excellent post! I was preparing my own lengthy rebuttal until I realized you'd already said all the good bits : ) Well said.
--
~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
Dear Christian:
I have heard the message of salvation many times: we are all sinners, and we can have forgiveness and eternal life if we confess and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord. I have heard that there can be no morality outside of God's laws, and that no one can be truly good without being transformed by the Spirit. I have also heard that there is no peace, love, joy, or meaning without Christ. Christians feel that unbelievers are empty slaves to carnality and selfish pride, unable to grasp the truth, and must humble themselves before God's plan.
I have heard that the bible contains the "inspired word of God" -a message of ultimate importance- and that many scholars claim to have proven its uniqueness and reliability. Some Christians say that they have verified the truth by personal experience.
This is all very interesting. I want the best for my life. If there is an eternal paradise, I would hate to miss it; and I definitely would not want to roast in a literal hell. It would be unwise to ignore something like a god, especially one who takes interest in my life. I would ask a thousand questions of an all-knowing mind.
You and I breathe the air of the same planet, and truth should be the same for us both. The basic question which should be asked about any religion is: is it TRUE? If the basic claims of theism, sin, miracles, and revelation are true, then maybe your "good news" is truly good.
However, I am an unbeliever. It's not that I particularly want to doubt; it's just that I have no choice. I have examined your claims and I am not convinced that they are true. I may even wish them to be true (or I may not) -but I am not so naive to think that something can be true or false just because I desire it. There must be some reason, beyond wishful thinking.
I'm sure you agree. You certainly doubt that thunder is caused by the anger of Zeus, or that Allah is the one true god. Like myself, you see them as myths created to explain the unknown, to give life some kind of meaning, to enhance culture, or to empower the ruling caste. They are born in human imagination, and can be explained without reference to a supernatural world. There are many gods which Christians reject. I just believe in one less god than you do. The reasons that you might give for your atheism toward Roman gods are likely the same reasons I would give for not believing in Jesus.
You and I are alike. We have minds which perceive, analyze, integrate, and react. Our only difference in this regard is that you have judged (or assumed) the premises of your religion to be factual, while I have not. You would not want to commit yourself to an idea of which you were not convinced, would you?
You are welcome to try and convince me that Christianity is true, but you should know that I am not going to "just believe" by faith. I will demand substantiation. If you say that the bible is reliable, I will ask you to prove it. I may ask why the bible contains so many errors and contradictions. If you are not familiar with the findings of critical bible scholars with diverse points of view, I will view your conclusions with suspicion.
Neither will I believe because millions of others do. Truth is not determined by vote. If it were, the earth would still be flat.
I will ask if your conclusions are logical. If you want me to consider your beliefs, then be ready to tackle questions like these:
* Is there a higher judge of truth than reason?
* After centuries of bitter religious fighting, why is your mind suddenly blessed with the true way of thinking?
* What is morality, and is it possible without a deity?
* Is the violent history of the Church consistent with a message of love?
* What is a contradiction, and what would the bible have to say in order to be discrepant?
* Why did your god create evil? (Isaiah 45:7)
* Is there anything wrong with skepticism?
* Why should inner religious experience point to anything outside of the mind?
* Historians must assume natural regularity over time, so how can the bible be completely historical when it contains miracles, which violate nature?
* What is a god, exactly, and why do you think one exists?
What could be said about Christianity which, if true, would make it false? If you can't answer that question, then your conclusions may be based on something other than honesty. You can't expect me to respectfully listen to you if you are closed to full, honest inquiry-if you are unwilling to allow, theoretically, that you might be wrong. I am open-minded and willing to change my position, if warranted. Can you also be fair enough to follow the facts, wherever they lead?
Many unbelievers have carefully considered these questions, perhaps even more deeply than you have. And some of us were at one time just as religious as you are now. After honest examination, I am convinced that the bible is primitive mythology, that there is no evidence for a god, that Christians are not more moral or tolerant than atheists, and that religion has caused more harm than good. Why should my conclusions be less valid than yours?
You feel that the complexity of life demands a designer; but the mind of such a creature would be at least as complex as the rest of nature, requiring a designer itself, wouldn't it? If everything needs a cause, then there can be no first cause; and if you nonetheless assert a First Cause, I will ask how you know (assume) that there can be an uncaused cause. If a deity can be thought eternal, so can the universe. God-belief does not answer any question; it just replaces a mystery with a mystery: if god made anything, who made god?
If the mind of a god is the measure for morality, then there is no way to measure if god's actions are "good." The murderous, sexist, intolerant activities of the biblical deity and the presence of chaos, ugliness and pain in the universe portray your "supreme" god as supremely immoral, by my standards. I could invent a nicer god than that, and so could you.
If you have new concrete evidence or rational arguments, then I will be glad to hear them. But please don't waste my time preaching the same old sermons I have been hearing for years.
I am quite happy with life. I have purpose and peace of mind -I prefer goodwill over repentance. I don't want to die, but I accept death as natural. I sense no need to worship, confess, or apologize to anyone. I feel no guilt, and therefore no desire to be "saved" from anything: sin is a primitive idea, and salvation is religion's offer to solve a problem of its own making.
I happily admit I am a skeptic; and I am proud of the way I think. Although humans are not perfect, I respect the human mind and I am optimistic about our abilities to continue to solve life's problems, with reason and kindness.
I don't claim to have all the answers; but if you want me to hear your message than I will ask you to listen to mine.
1987, Dan Barker/ www.ffrf.org, Madison WI
I would be very interested to hear your message. You were a preacher, you say? What changed your position?
To answer some of your questions:
I will readily admit that Chrisitanity would be on very shaky ground if there were no evidence for the life of Christ. Taking Him out of the equation more or less destroys the rest of the religion.
I think an honest examination shows the opposite, however. I think the evidence for the life of Christ is astoudning, and this is the number one intellectual reason why I believe.
You raise an interesting issue over the first cause argument. Though I'm not completely convinced of the merits of this line of reasoning myself, I think your perspective on it is a bit faulty. Presumably the God of which we speak is transcendent of time and space, and therefore not subject to a cause. The laws of physics which create cause-effect chains in time and space were designed by this God. The limits placed on His creation are not necessarily also restraining Him.
As to a couple of your bullet points:
I won't claim to have the absolute true position. I will readily accept other positions. I see the strongest evidence for mine, but there is always room for intellectual dispute. I am opposed to religious violence but welcome a civil debate.
I would be interested to know what contradictions you are claiming exist. This is an argument I've seen often. 90% of people who make it can't name a single supposed contradiction. Of those who can, I haven't seen an actual contradiction yet, just faulty reading/interpretation. Keep in mind that the English doesn't do a great job representing the original.
I don't have any problem with skepticism. I myself was a skeptic. I think intellectual inquiry very beneficial to growth. For that very reason I am not very trusting of "inner religious experiences" when they are opposed by the outside evidence. For instance, Mormanism is completely denied by outside evidence. Morman's cling to their faith based on an "inner experience." I find this very suspect.
Your question about natural regularity strikes me as an argument set up to exclude opposition. By assuming natural regularity, you automatically exclude certain things (such as miracles). So asking about the hisoriocity of scripture using such a standard is essentially making the conclusion before you apply the test.
This is similar to why I dislike the propogated evolution theory. The theory essentially statest that evolution occurs in rapid sequence during periods of mass enviornmental change (the six mass extinctions, asteroid strike, etc). Such a conclusion means that no fossil record evidence for evolution will exists. Which is rather convenient because it excludes counterarguments because the theory can neither be confirmed or denied. Which seems to be like sloppy science.
This post is already getting very long, so I'll cut it off here because discussing your other questions will probably take an equally long post.
Miracles, my friend. I believe in miracles.
Like the way the we have enough veins, arteries, and tiny capillaries that, if put end to end, they would wrap arounf the entire Earth three times.
Or how when our eyes are formed, there are about a million little nerves on each eye and matching nerves attached to the brain. EVERY LAST ONE of those nerves must find there perfect match before we could ever see. Imagine having a million people enter from one side of a football stadium and another million from the other side, all holding a number on a piece of paper. Each of these people must find the person coming in from the other side that has the same number. If these nerves didn't attach perfectly -EVERY LAST ONE- we couldn't see.
Or how sometime before we are born, our eyelids are a single piece. Then MYSTERIOUSLY some sort of blade slices the eyelids PERFECTLY straight so that we can open our eyes.
Dear friend, we are fearfully and wonderfully made. With no God, it simply could not happen. Miracles.
Love,
Lauren
The fact that a Christian can form a complete sentence, what with their disdain for education and science.
That is one of the most ridiculous stereotypes I've ever heard. And people complain about how ATHEISTS are stereotyped and have certain stigmas and myths associated with them!! If you have something intelligent to say that supports your position, say it, don't waste people's time making vague, rude, pointless attacks that add no merit to an intelligent discussion.
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
wasting people's time, making vague, rude, pointless attacks that add no merit to an intelligent discussion. It's the rare respectful (usually liberal) Christian who voices a point of view actually worth my time and consideration. Most just spout Bible verses (automatic ignore/delete) or babble aimlessly, some send internet godspam as letters to the editor (which can be immediately debunked on Snopes).
What, so it's okay for you to do the same thing, as in your original comment that I responded to, but you're going to be all offended if someone does the same to you? And it's not just Christians, or Atheists, or any one group of people who do things like that. It's a people thing, not a "religious person" or "non religious" person thing. It's just you sound like a great hypocrite to me, spouting off about how awful Christians are when you turn around and pull the same stupid junk yourself.
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
then don't do the same damn thing and prove yourself a hypocrite. Don't pretend you're on the high road when you're driving the mud flats with everyone else.
All I did was point out you said the same kind of thing you accuse Christians of doing; that's not a claim that I'm some kind of perfect person, I was just pointing out the inherent contradiction in your arguments. If you have a legitimate argument against Christians, fine, say it; if I have a legitimate argument, I'll say it, and I did, in pointing out your double standard. How does that make me a hypocrite?
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
Rev, good to see you and the frau stirring things up and setting them straight. I haven't checked the FAVA group in ages; just took a quick look and I see the status quo hasn't changed. ;^)
BTW, did you ever notice Atheists usually provide attribution (as you have) for content written by others, but all the godspam LTEs (which are often debunkable on Snopes) never do?
The evidence for the life of a man named Jesus Christ is astounding. So what? The evidence for the life of a man named Michael Jackson is also astounding. What's at issue is not whether he existed but whether he was the son of "God" endowed with supernatural properties. It is impossible to prove such a thing. Of course, it is impossible to prove the obverse -- but really now, which seems more likely?
LOL! You've got a point. : )
~AtheistMommy
www.atheistmommydiary.blogspot.com
When I said evidence for the life of Christ, I did not mean merely evidence he existed. Surely that would be a flimsy basis for faith.
What I meant is the evidence for his claims as a deity are very stong. In particular, the evidence for Christ's resurrection is far stronger than that for the vast majority of historical events which we assume to be fact.
Equally interesting is the evidence for his fulfillment of the myriad of Old Testament profecies.
The combination makes a very stong case for deity.
I had to register just so I could respond to this posting.
First of all, if you are really interested in Dan Barker and why he became an atheist, you might want to read his book, "Losing Faith in Faith--From Preacher to Atheist." I've met Dan and heard him speak. He is an intelligent man and eloquently expresses himself in his book.
In an earlier posting, you said, "I think the evidence for the life of Christ is astoudning" [sic]. Then you write that "...the evidence for Christ's resurrection is far stronger than that for the vast majority of historical events which we assume to be fact." I would love to know what 'evidence' you have to support those claims. Since you sound so convinced I'm sure you aren't referring to the NT Gospel accounts which, as bible scholars agree, were written anonymously decades after the alleged events they describe. So please share with me the evidence you have.
Thank you.
Atheist Veteran
You mean I'm not the only one?
This good catholic girl supports you. I don't think everyone should believe the same thing and no ones soul needs saving<3 Tina
Because there is nothing I can do to change your mind, and you can believe anything that you want to, it's not going to change my mind or affect my life. But just talking about it and if we can ask each other questions that will allow us to further examine and confirm what our individual beliefs are, then it's all good. Thanks for this, because I'm going to refer this to one of my good friends, who is athetist himself, and I know that he'll enjoy it :)
Interesting, and partially true.
The only one that I was particularly shocked by was number 6. The Church's defense comes from being aware of what it is up against. I am sure to study these things. Many of my athiest or agnostic friends have actually studied to disprove Christianity but have OBVIOUSLY not made an effort to research the other side.
Other than that, I felt that you explanations were fairly common. I can't truly expect an athiest to understand Christian views.
One misconception about Christianity: True Christianity is a lifestyle. Mortal and immortal. Many people claim Christianity (especially in the States and ESPECIALLY in the South) but have no true understanding of God. Only those of us who have a real relationship with God are truly Christian and can be saved. Do not be misled and do not ask questions to those you know cannot answer. And don't waste your time with falsely claimed Christians.
So you know.
Love,
Lauren
Reading the Bible has made an Atheist of many a believer. I see you count yourself as one of the "true" Christians - as does every other. Yeah, right. And just how many Christians deign to study or understand the Atheist point of view? How many even bother to learn how to spell Atheist?
I agree with you on one point: Don't waste your time with falsely claimed Christians.
You're absolutely right with you comment about "true" Christians. Don't be too quick to judge me on that one though. No matter how cliche it may be. I'm so sorry I haven't won any spelling trophies recently...
I learn a lot about different religions (and non-religions, or whatever) from my dad, who has dedicated his life to religious studies. I feel like I grow constantly in my faith. I enjoy seeing subjects and articles like this here because it does make me ask questions. As I search for answers, I only grow closer to God.
It's amazing how, while simply claiming to disavow myths about atheists, you incorporate (largely unfounded) accusations against Christians, putting them down.
If you want to write a post that I, even as Christian, will read and take into acount, present your views fairly, without putting those who believe in religion down. If I was going to write a post about why Christianity is preferable to atheism, for example, I would do so in a way that would not paint atheists in a negative light--like the way your post constantly refers to Christians as 'illogical' 'sheep'.
I won't argue whether your points about why these are myths, not truths, about atheists have any validity--but your generalized, unfounded, unsupported attacks on Christianity and Christians are not valid, and if "all" you're doing is supporting the "true" atheist perspective, you can certainly do so without putting others down in the process. (And if you can't, then there's a good chance your perspective isn't all that well-founded after all.)
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
Although yes, some Atheists might not be entirely familiar with the bible, but one might say the same about some Christians. I liked this blog. I have seen similar material about people defending Atheism and I think-to each his/her own. One is entitled to believe whatever they please and if it happens to be that s/he believes in nothing of a higher power, than that's lovely. It is nice, however, to dispell some of the mythology surrounding a belief-structure. :]
♥, Dana
I'm an atheist for a number of reasons, but the primary one is this: Why would a god that is assumingly worth worshipping willing to allow people to kill other innocents in his name? That's a bit strange, isn't it?
As for christians themselves: I try to keep out of debates, because it always ends up with them calling me stupid. However, the few I've gotten into a few debates where the bible was used to justify a position (ie, gayness is wrong because of so and so text, etc), and generally those are the best. When argueing against gay marriage, they'll quote Levictus, who is this crazy guy that says other brilliant stuff like death should be wrought upon those who eat fats. Levictis is like the only guy that points to gayness being wrong or bad. However, if you'll notice, they don't follow the entire old testament - they'll say something about it being outdated. So why quote it? That's stumping time, where you are instantly called a heathen doomed to hell, etc etc.
So, tip: Don't argue with christians unless you have hours and hours of time to blow.
____
If a society is willing to give freedom for temporary security, they deserve neither.
Although there a number of things I could take issue with in your comment, what I'd like to point out is the BIG flaw in assuming God "allow"s people to do things. People have a little thing called Free Will. We wouldn't be human if some divine/supernatural/whatever controlled us, we'd be puppets. People can do what they want--they frequently do bad things in the name of good causes, even those that AREN'T religious in nature. It's a people-thing, not a God thing. Even if you don't believe in free will--still, it's a people thing. Everyone has a different definition of "good", everyone disagrees, and most people are flat out dishonest.
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
If "God" doesn't stop something, he allows it. It's that simple.
Only if you're saying God is the kind of omniscient, omnipresent Being who plays with human beings like puppets. Whereas the Christian version of God, people were made to be people--and people have the capacity for both good and evil. We CHOOSE to be good or evil. God made us this way, to have FREE WILL, to make those choices, because choices are part of what makes us human--He's not going to "control" us, to "stop" us doing something. He gave us the world to make what we would of it. So if you're argument is that God doesn't exist because there's evil in the world, that's completely illogical, because the existence of evil and the existence of God are not mutually exclusive. There's evil in the world because PEOPLE can be evil. This could also lead to an discussion about the influence of Satan, but that's a slightly different subject, and kind of pointless to bring up; if you don't believe in an all powerful GOOD being, I have to assume you don't believe in a supernatural EVIL being either.
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
If he can't or won't prevent evil.
It seems you have a different definition of God than the one I'm working from. Definitions are everything.
If you'd read my previous comment, you'd understand part of the whole God-thing is about having given people free will.
God isn't some totalitarian ruler bent on making everyone act the way He wants. That's how He's God.
--
~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
That's right, free will can save us from famine, disease, hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, tsunamis, and false believers flying planes into buildings. Sure.
Any "God" who doesn't spare its creations from unavoidable, unspeakable suffering and death either doesn't them love enough, revels in their misery, or is utterly impotent. In any case, that's not a "God" worthy of worship, only contempt.
Plenty of good stuff here. #2 is usually the one that bothers me most, both the atheists that are this way and the assumption that I am that way. Far too often I find atheists who HATE a god they claim does not exist because of some bad experience. Most atheists do come by their lack of faith through honest questioning and inquiry, but the emotional atheists can ruin the whole barrel of apples.
Res ipsa loquitur.
Memento mori, mahalo.
Atheists may despise the arrogance and actions of believers, but they do not hate that which does not exist. Why the hell can't some people get it through their thick skulls?
Really? If that's your personal viewpoint, more power to you, but personally most of the atheists I know do have a bit of a grudge against the God they claim doesn't exist.
I don't defend all "Christians" as good people, because that's a blanket argument that can't possible be true--maybe some people need to get it through their thick skulls that not all atheists are rational beings with good (or, in fact, ANY) reasons for what they do or say. There's good and bad, rational and irrational, people on both sides of the fence, and in defending one side or the other, that needs to be taken into account.
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
Methinks you should question them further as to what they truly despise. Might just be a matter of jumbled semantics and misunderstanding. Or maybe they're just trying to annoy you by directly attacking "god".
Atheists don't hate what they don't believe in. However, believers do. There are quite a few believers who become angry at their god and turn against him/her. And this doesn't make them Atheist since the definition is actually the lack of belief. These people who hate the imaginary friend actually believe in the imaginary friend and this is the soul reason they hate them.
I think if you can accuse Atheists of any kind of hate it would be aimed at what extreme belief does to people. Or has done to people. The force of Christianity on others, is another thing you could accuse Atheists of hating. I know I'm guilty of that. I especially don't like the fact that Christianity is often aimed at children.
There's is after all, a good reason why one must be taught to believe in god and are not born knowing.
I do however, agree that in every group there are "bad apples." My personal lack of faith came from growing up in a devout Christian home. It was enough to see what really goes on and live in the middle of it to understand that this is not right, not moral and not godly.
~AtheistMommy
www.atheistmommydiary.blogspot.com
Then many of the atheists I know aren't "real" atheists, because they definitely have a grudge against God, and at the same time say God doesn't exist.
As far as "accusing" goes--that's a bit strong of a word for what I was saying. I would also like to point out it's not just the atheists who hate the forcing of Christianity on people. (You might be interested in these two posts: http://progressiveu.org/160000-the-voice-of-reason-in-the-name-of-god and http://progressiveu.org/160000-the-voice-of-reason-yall-going-to-hell). I don't see why it's bad that Christianity is "aimed at children"; don't Christian families have the right to bring up their children to share their beliefs? However if you're referring to, again, evangelistic principles, well that's a separate argument, really, because it goes back to protecting one's own children from influences we see as bad, etc.
I'm glad you agree with my main point--but what bothers me is that people have certain bad experiences with Christianity and then assume all Christians are like that, and the Church is bad in and of itself. This is not the case. (So you see, it's not just atheists who get a bad rap thanks to "common myths"...) You had bad experiences with your faith; I've grown up Catholic and have stayed Catholic, and while I've seen that there are bad people associated with Christianity who do terrible things, the basic precepts of religion--the ones most denominations, even the most disparate--tend to agree on, are right and true, and most definitely Godly.
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
I don't really understand why you feel the need to explain that Atheists are not the only group with "common myths." That's an understatement and of course Christians are misunderstood by some. I try to stay away from absolutes, they tend to be wrong.
I also know that Atheists are not the only ones who hate the forcing of religion (no matter if its Christianity or not). I may be an Atheist but the fact remains I'm surrounded by believers. Liberal believers are just as angry about such things.
As far as children go, I was actually speaking of evangelistic. That Jesus camp is scary. Its one thing to teach your own children your personal beliefs (I'm not about to tell a fellow parent they can't do, so its not my place) its another thing to take these misconceptions and teach them as truths to children in order to spread hate for those type of people, in the name of any god. It breeds hate.
However, once, having been that child, there should be a rated R on all the biblical movies. People should take caution in showing their children or allowing their children to read about murder, incest, slavery and so on. The bible is no different. I was greatly taken back by the murder of the first born. Its been burned into my mind. Or the fact that a father was willing to kill his son for god. That's scary when you're five years old. It's a fact that between the ages of 0 to 10 the brain (not the child but the child's brain) cannot tell the difference between TV/movie trauma and real life trauma. The part of the brain that handles trauma during a real life situation is active when a child reads or watches trauma unfold in a story.
IMO, Parenting and child development should be a requirement in HS. Instead of sugar coating things, they should be taught the way they are. You want to stop unwanted teenage pregnancies and abortion? Start by teaching about reproduction and STDs. I think part of the problem is ignorance. However, I'm getting a bit off topic, sorry...
As far as you growing up Catholic and staying that denomination, some people do believe that we are not in control over what we believe. I don't know about you but having grown up in a religious home and always feeling like I didn't belong, that kind of makes sense. Those who have been deeply religious for years and then become Atheist haven't just become Atheist. It's a long process in which they had been (consciously or subconsciously) thinking about. It's an inner struggle with one's self because this means something horrible for each individual. It means you will lose a few loved ones over this. There are quite a few people who are willing to disown a daughter, niece, aunt, mother, grandmother, sister, and so on, over a god.
The thought makes me sick! But this is truly what it comes down to. You go with the flow and keep everyone happy or you live for yourself and risk losing those you love. I've personally lost 8 family members over my owning up to my Atheism.
I don't see it as very moral to disown a family member over something so pity as a god. But maybe that has more to do with my Atheism than anything, not sure. I know that my mother is a very family oriented woman and it may have been taught to me by nurture. But I guess I will never really know. She remains a believer but the thought of the family violence that happens in the bible and because of the bible sickens me, always has, and this may have been my main reason why I never took to the thought of an all loving, all knowing, all magical god.
Of course, reading about other cultures and their beliefs didn't help the case either. Once you know there are people who believe in other gods (maybe a few gods and some goddesses) its hard to go on believing that one god exists.
Of course, I could go on and on about this so maybe I should just write another thread about this. It seems this is the most popular thread I've written so far. Hardly anyone (compared to this thread) has read anything else I've posted.
~AtheistMommy
www.atheistmommydiary.blogspot.com
www.cafepress.com/ftlshop
First, I feel need to point it out because, in your post and the people commenting here, are all up in arms because atheists are so stereotpyed and such--but then you all go right on applying common myths to Christians as though they are facts! If that's not a hypocritical double standard, then what is?
As far as evangelicals go, well, to be frank they often unnerve me--but as far as Jesus camps go, isn't it the right of the parent to send their child there if they want? Yes, the're going to recruit for people to come, but if you want to shield your child from that, you can. But if a group of parents who share those kinds of beliefs want to set up a camp to send their children to where they know they'll be surrounded by others who think the same, why can't they do that? You're not being forced to participate; what harm does it do to you?
As for ratings and such on the Bible, or movies--it's true, the Bible has lots of things in it that are very adult-content. But life is like that, too. It's up to the PARENT to understand their child, reserve possibly disturbing concepts for when the child is ready to learn about them, and take the time to EXPLAIN things to their child. This is the same ridiculous argument some fundamentalist Christians use about why Harry Potter is evil and children shouldn't read it. OF COURSE a child's brain isn't as discerning as an adult, but it's the parent's job to TEACH them. And kids are a lot smarter at keeping fantasy and reality separate than many give them credit for. OF COURSE parents should take caution with books and movies--but they should do the same for real life!! The same as you shield a child from too much evil, trauma, or, if you're so inclined, sexual information, until they reach a certain age or developmental stage should be the same way you monitor what they're learning about religion, how they're learning it, and who from.
And then you actually contradict yourself, and say instead of sugar coating things we ought to teach them the way they are. Well, yes, I agree--but as it's appropriate for your child. Do you know every single Christian speaker that has come to my school to talk about abstinence has mentioned God only in the last five minutes or less of their speech, given those who don't want to hear the religious bit the opportunity to leave, and made it clear that the reason for abstinence isn't that God says it's wrong--unless you want to believe that--but because you want to keep yourself free of STDs and steer clear of teenage pregnancy? Education IS being tried. The only safe sex is no sex, and that's not just my opinion as a Catholic, but because I've seen the statistics, heard the evidence about how condoms fail, etc, and am making the choice to remain abstinate because of PRACTICALITY, not just religious religions.
As far as family members disowning you--that makes me sick as well. How utterly RIDICULOUS. If you REALLY love God, and your family, even if they decide your beliefs aren't for them, you STICK BY THEM, pray for them if you want, but let them be how they want and stay by them because as a Chrisitan and a family member that is what you ought to do. They can't truly love God if they don't love the ones God loves. The disowning of someone because they change religious beliefs is an outdated, immoral, terrible idea, and I wish someone could explain that to those people. However, I don't believe that "God issues" are petty; it's not a "petty" or "minor" matter. I can see family members being upset; but I think they should stick by you, and love you anyway. No matter what.
As far as the Bible goes, yes, terrible things are in there; but terrible things happen in life. Lots of the Bible is historical accounts. That's how life is. It tells history, proves a point, gives an example of bad things not to do, and then there are all the GOOD parts to make up for it. The Bible is a history account in more than one away. Besides many of the events being factual, it is, as an old friend, my now deceased former pastor, once told me, the Bible is comparable to a ladder, from start to finish, bottom rung to top rung. We begin wtih the basics. What kinds of commands and laws and morality people could understand, were willing to understand. From the "eye for an eye tooth for a tooth" to the enlightened philosophy of Jesus's "forgive seventy times seven". The Bible shows the growth of human morality.
I would resopnd to your last comment, about other gods and goddesses, but--this is already too long, and I touch on that in the other comment I left in response to another of your comments. : ) Sorry for the length.
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~I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.~
Religion is so complicated I am still too confused to get involved in any one. I think it'll take a lifetime for me to figure this one out.
It's strange that we don't seem to have any Muslims here to defend Allah. I'm sure Muslims would be more offended by atheists. Their own religion is based on the idea that Allah created humans for the sole purpose of worshipping him. If people don't worship Allah, the Muslims say, they aren't living the purpose of their life and probably shouldn't be alive. (This may be a little too simplistic of a summary but I think that's the gist o