Since I have become an active member of the progressive community, approximately two weeks ago, I have been overwhelmed by the amount of discussion that takes place on abortion. Having read extensively this weekend on surveys that attempt to measure national sentiments of popular opinion towards abortion, I realized that there were many parallels between the surveys I read about for class and the blogs I have read about abortion. Many blogs declare absolutely that abortion is fine or that abortion is should be illegal. However, few take into account the multitude of conditions that surround abortion. Like the surveys I read about, these blogs incite the opinions of individuals who feel strongly pro choice or strongly pro life, but leave little room for those of us who do not believe that abortion is ABSOLUTELY right or wrong.
Therefore, I propose the following survey question that was widely used and proved to provide the most accurate depiction of American public opinion on abortion. If you like, please answer the questions. I want to see if those of us who seemed polarized on other debates about abortion, really have more in common than we think, but this commonality is being blurred by some of us thinking primarily of rape situations where as others of us think primarily of just not wanting to have a child, when the word abortion is brought up.
Survey done by the National Opinion Research Center
"Please tell me whether or not you think it should be possible for a pregnant woman to obtain a legal abortion if
1. The woman’s health is seriously endangered?
2. She became pregnant as a result of rape?
3. There is a strong chance of serious defect in the baby?
4. The family has low income and cannot afford any more children?
5. She is not married and does not want to marry the man?
6. She is married and does not want any more children?"
I took this excerpt from a book called “The New American Democracy” by Morris P. Fiorina, Paul E. Peterson, Bertram Johnson, and William G. Mayer, page 134.
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
1- yes
2- yes
3- yes
4-yes
5-yes
6-yes
Where to draw the line? Late term abortion with exemption to the first one.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
A woman should have the right in all of the above cases.
T.k.
Both you and Kiota agreed that a woman should have the option available to her in all situations. However, do you agree only with some types of abortion procedures, or do you think all of them are acceptable as well (I am thinking back into the 1990s with the partial-birth abortion media coverage)?
What were the results of that survey?
"Please tell me whether or not you think it should be possible for a pregnant woman to obtain a legal abortion if
1. The woman’s health is seriously endangered? Y
2. She became pregnant as a result of rape? Y
3. There is a strong chance of serious defect in the baby? Y
4. The family has low income and cannot afford any more children? Y
5. She is not married and does not want to marry the man? Y
6. She is married and does not want any more children? Y
I am curious to hear your opinion regarding the role of the male in the decision process of having an abortion.
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No. Would a woman be forced to marry someone if she has a baby. If she has the money to care for a child herself, she doesn't have to get married.
6. No. I really don't think not wanting more children is a good reason to have an abortion. if you can take care of the baby, weren't raped, have no health risks and can give the child a good life, what's the problem. That just seems selfish and unreasonable.
“I hope the departure is joyful and I hope never to return.” - Frida Kahlo
Pubic hair is natural
Survey done by the National Opinion Research Center
"Please tell me whether or not you think it should be possible for a pregnant woman to obtain a legal abortion if
1. The woman’s health is seriously endangered? Yes
2. She became pregnant as a result of rape? Yes
3. There is a strong chance of serious defect in the baby? Yes
4. The family has low income and cannot afford any more children? Yes
5. She is not married and does not want to marry the man? No.
6. She is married and does not want any more children? No.
For the same reasons as _Meke -- they're not good enough reasons to just have an abortion.
----
"No matter what he does, every person on earth plays a central role in the history of the world. And normally he doesn't know it." -- The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.
1. The woman’s health is seriously endangered? YES
2. She became pregnant as a result of rape? YES
3. There is a strong chance of serious defect in the baby? YES
4. The family has low income and cannot afford any more children? NO*
*An abortion is, in my opinion, a consideration only when matters of health and/or a woman's consent ar present. In the first three cases, the condition of the woman's life or the baby's was considered, and therefore abortion is legitimate. However, if a women engages in intercourse and becomes pregnant, and decides to have an abortion because she will not be able to acquire money to support the baby, then give the baby up for adoption so the woman is not financially pressed and the baby will have a home/life. Do not use finance as an excuse to have an abortion.
5. She is not married and does not want to marry the man? NO*
*Unless the condom broke and she wasn't careful enough to pay attention, she shouldn't seek an abortion unless it threatens her/the baby's health. If she does not want to marry the man and is single, she would do better to have the baby and give it up for adoption, despite the [apparent] embarrassment of carrying a child without a spouse.
6. She is married and does not want any more children? NO
*SEE QUESTION 4
I think that my views would be most similar to yours in answering the questions. I think that my religious views would prevent me from being an advocate of abortion in many circumstances, and I think that if I were pregnant and did not want to be, I think or I would at least hope that my first instinct would be to have the baby and if needed give it up for adoption, but I do not think that my personal views should have an effect on the freedom of other women. My views should determine my behavior and other individuals do have the right to do what they want to with their own bodies. However, I do think that some reasons for having an abortion are more legitimate than others. I would have answered the questions that same as you did.
1.---> 6 I don't know
I'm one of those few people who has a decisive stance on the act but not the actor. I personally am pro-life. That encompasses not only embryoes, but criminals, soldiers, and everyone in between. But that also means I don't believe in disrupting the quality of life of a woman who has chosen to get an abortion. I guess when it comes right down to it, I hold certain truths to be evident that may not apply to others. In terms of rape, I think its more psychologically traumatic in the long run for a woman to undergo the procedure than to give birth. On low income and such, it all depends on how the situation is handled (putting up a child for adoption is free) I don't quite understand the baby defect argument, maybe because I've been surrounded by people with special needs my entire life (my uncle has autism and my sister was born with t-fistula)
For more on the subject, I suggest anyone interested take a look at the book Freakonomics, which suggests that abortion lowers crime rates
Just for the general record, just because someone says a woman should be allowed to have an abortion in a certain case, doesn't mean that they are saying the person SHOULD have the abortion. There is a huge difference between the two, and those of us who are Pro-choice believe that, in the end, it's up to the mother, and no one else. It is her body that will be nurturing the fetus for 8-9 months, and she is the one that will have to face all the consequences of the pregnancy.
With that being said, I'd say yes to all of them. I'd like to add a few more comments to a few of them, though.
3. There is a strong chance of serious defect in the baby?
On this one, I'm very cautious about saying yes, just because there are so many different ways you could consider 'defect'. Do I think the a child who will have AB blood, or brown hair, or blue eyes should be aborted? Hell no. Someone with klinefelter's syndrome? Maybe. Someone with down syndrome?
... Someone missing, say, half the brain? more likely to say yeah. But many, many physical problems (like a tumor, or a missing palette, or something of that nature) can be fixed.
4. The family has low income and cannot afford any more children?
To whoever above said adoption is free, I just want to say one thing. Prenatal care is not. Especially in this country. Also, the child is affected hugely by the nutrition of the mother during pregnancy, so if you're missing things in your diet when your pregnant, the child will suffer later in life. So while I don't think it should be a leap to abortion, I think it should be available as an option.
5. She is not married and does not want to marry the man?
See, this one is worded weirdly. It says nothing about her ability or want to raise the child, merely that she doesn't want to marry the father. If she cannot afford it on her own and doesn't love the man, and doesn't have the support needed to raise a child, I could understand. But just saying she's not married and doesn't want to marry the man tells me nothing.
~C
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Number three also troubles me a bit. I understand that there are conditions in which it would be better for the child not to suffer, but I feel that there are also conditions where it could be a major inconvenience to the parents or in some people just don't want to have a child that they know from birth won't be perfect. However, I feel like the option of abortion can be abused and that a woman can have regret. Do you think that stricter enforcement of abortion by a case by case basis (maybe using some of the conditions that the survey proposed) would prevent this regret or abuse of the option? Abortion does carry a strong emotional impact, as do other alternatives such as having the child or giving the child up for adoption.
I do agree that it is the woman's body and ultimately it is her decision, despite the conditions that surround it. However, do you think that the male involved should have say in whether or not the female get an abortion, because it would technically be his child as well?
First, I want to thank you for being civil. I've gotten into a lot of debates about abortion where people feel so strongly about what they believe that they won't listen to anyone else.
I think that if the child could be born without incredible harm to itself or the mother (I say incredible because birth itself poses a death risk, even though we rarely see it with modern medicine), abortion should be the absolute last option. It carries with it huge emotional and physical consequences that I do think need to be emphasized more to those seeking abortion.
Now, that doesn't mean I think people should be showing gruesome pictures of aborted fetuses, and raving about how the mother is going to go to hell and so on and so forth. Rather, I think, women (and their partner, if there will be a partner) who want to undergo the procedure should have to go through some degree of counseling, and be explained all the risks that go with the medical procedure, as well as alternatives. We do this for other surgeries (well, maybe not the extensive counseling... that depends on the type of surgery)... why not abortion?
As for the decision of the father... I'm torn. On one hand, if a woman is raped, and ends up pregnant (however unlikely that is), and then has the baby, the rapist has rights to it. That is completely wrong. Should, then, the rapist have a say in whether or not the mother can have an abortion? In a similar vein... I'd say a number of women who have abortions do so because the father won't support them, or themselves pressure the women to have the procedure. Would they have gotten the abortion on their own? Maybe. Maybe not. On the other hand, there are those fathers who will support the woman and want the child to be born. I think, though, that the best way to influence a woman to have her not get an abortion is to support her, and so while I don't have statistics to back it up, I think those women who will be supported by the father get fewer abortions in the long run.
So, to sum that last paragraph up, I think the mother should have the ultimate decision, even though it would be the father's child as well.
~C
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To whoever above said adoption is free, I just want to say one thing. Prenatal care is not.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Some numbers to back up what mvenus is saying here:
On a good health insurance plan:
$50 copay OB/GYN visits, per visit (at least once a month, if there are complications, or the mother is considered "high risk", that can be as often as once a week); total - at least $500
$45 per refill of Rx prenatal vitamins with Omega Fatty Acids (one month supply); total - at least $450
$450 for overnight stay at hospital for delivery
$150 for ambulance ride if no one is able to drive the mother
So, just in basic doctor visits, you're looking at at least $2000. That doesn't even include ultrasound fees (some insurances don't cover all of an ultrasound, or don't cover any ultrasounds other than the 18-week one), blood tests, diabetes tests (for gestational diabetes), longer stays at the hospital, nursery care, or extra money for food because of nutritional changes (the numbers are from my own pregnancy, when ended in a miscarriage at 19 weeks).
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Wow! I admire your research.
In addition to financial costs, adoption also carried with it emotional effects. I feel that some mothers may later regret their decision to give their child up for adoption.
Research shows that women who gives their children up for adoption typically suffer far more emotional trauma than those who abort. :)
Yes to all, except the fifth question is silly (I agree with _Meke) because a woman doesn't have to marry just because she gets pregnant. I should hope we are living in a more enlightened world now.
Although I question whether I would ever choose an abortion for myself, I strongly support the rights of women to have control over their own bodies.
I agree that the fifth question is weird. But I think that the reason why it may have been worded that way is because the same survey question has been asked for over the last 50 years and I think that in the earlier 1900s it was more unacceptable by society to have a child out of wedlock. Also, I think it may also have to do with the belief that some people condone premartial sex and I guess having a child before marriage would make it a little more obvious and thus the shunning by society thing. I don't agree with it, I am just trying to clarify.
It's crazy that they haven't updated their survey in 50 years. Cultures change; you'd think an organization focused on cultural issues would realize this.
Thanks for the clarification. : )
I think the reason why they did not change the question happened for two reasons (at least that I can think of). I think that it is easier for them to show the progression of these views over time. The book that I got the survey question from had a chart that showed the overall trend in public opinion. There is a lot with how wording a survey question can affect the outcome of the survey and I think that for the most part, these questions that the organization had come up with avoids a great deal of bias that plagues many other surveys on abortion by swaying the participant to chose on answer over the other. So I think that once they found a good thing, maybe they just thought they should stick with it. Also, because I think that since the survey targeted American public opinion as a whole, they may have left this question in there for those "old school" or elderly individuals.
1. The woman’s health is seriously endangered? yes
2. She became pregnant as a result of rape? yes
3. There is a strong chance of serious defect in the baby? yes
4. The family has low income and cannot afford any more children? yes
5. She is not married and does not want to marry the man? yes
6. She is married and does not want any more children?" yes
This has to be the most civil discussion of this topic I have ever seen! Kudos to you all, and to you too, fencer07, for setting the tone. I am impressed and heartened!
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
"This has to be the most civil discussion of this topic I have ever seen!"
Well, I'll have to fix that!!!! lol
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
123 yes
456 no
if a mother was not the victim of rape, or the birth does not pose an IMMINENT risk to baby or mother, she has to accept responsibility.
SEX WAS CREATED FOR PROCREATION
IF YOU DONT WANT A BABY DONT HAVE SEX.
AND CONDOMS ONLY WORK 99% OF THE TIME.
So a married woman in her late 30's with three kids already should just... give up sex until menopause, cause she doesn't want any more kids?
~C
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why is it only her responsibility? Shouldn't the responsibility be mutual between a husband and a wife or a mother and the children's father?
What about those who were victims of coercion?
70% of girls who had sex before the age of 16 say they did not want to have sex. Rather, they were manipulated or pressured into it by their boyfriend, peers, etc.
What about someone who will suffer emotional trauma from being pregnant or giving birth?
What about married couples who cannot afford any more children? Should they stop having sex? Sex is not only meant for reproduction. It also helps strengthen bonds between couples, release tensions, etc.
yes to all of the above. i took an incredible biomedical ethics class and the professor was amazing - he played devil's advocate often and showed that there can be no absolute answer in any case.
would you say then that there are circumstances within each category where you may not agree with abortion being used, or do you think that it is a woman's decision and no one else has the right to make that decision for her?
i believe it is ultimately the woman's decision. i don't think that people who debate the morality of abortion or want to set rules for if and when it is permissible to get an abortion should be able to dictate a woman's future.
I agree. I often find it hard to debate the issue of abortion, because I think that my personal decisions in each of the above conditions may differ from what others would do. Although I do not think that I would be emotionally capable of getting an abortion, God forbid that I may ever need to, but I do not think that just because I would chose to keep a child means that others should be forced to do so as well.
What do you feel is the father's role though? So many people comment that it is a woman's right to have an abortion, but isn't the baby his as well?
I try not to let what my own personal choice would be affect my opinion on other choices. Personally for a long time I thought I could never get an abortion... then I had a pregnancy scare from a man I never, ever wanted to think of again, from an encounter I prefer to pretend never happened. And I know that if I had been pregnant... first stop: abortion clinic.
And hell no, the father has no rights to what is affecting MY BODY. He should be required to pay for part of whatever option I choose, since he was also responsible for it.
then I had a pregnancy scare from a man I never, ever wanted to think of again, from an encounter I prefer to pretend never happened.
Who's fault was that? Sounds like you made a bad decision which led to your downfall. That has nothing to do with abortion and everything to do with choosing the right person to have sex with. Enough said.
+mspin
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/weezyf
1. yes
2. yes
3. yes
4. no
5. no
6. no
I believe that only under certain circumstances should abortion should be legal. If a woman just simply doesn't want to have a child she simply shouldn't have sex. If a family can't afford it they should put the child up for adoption.
~If you don't support our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them.~