No lie! This is a response to son_of_disaster's recent blog, Nothing Can't Exist Because There is Always Something in the Nothingness. You could also say it's the "sequel" to Dancing On God's Grave. I felt that some clarification and a blog to really bring all the ideas together could be used. In this, I will be tackling all of the things listed in the title! In case you missed the gigantic title, they are: Creationism! Evolution! God! Nothingness! Da Big Bang! Da Big Crunch! And... More (maybe)! Now then, on with the show. (Beware: huge.)
Let's Get Everything Straight
As for the creation of the great wide universe, there are two main beliefs. They are Creationism and The Big Bang.
WAIT! HOLD UP! There seems to be a frequently mistaken belief amongst people who do not believe in evolution (or those who do, but have been misinformed)--evolution is not a belief about the creation of the universe. All clear? Okay? If you want to know, "then what is it?!", I'll tell you in a little bit.
Creationism is the strict belief that God created the world, as is, with no evolution or eventually development, progression, or regression over time. According to Wikipedia, the classic creation date of the universe, established by James Ussher in 1654, is 4004 BC. Now, to set one thing straight: creationism just doesn't work. Period--it doesn't work. It's scientifically wrong. The earth is obviously much older than 4004 BC, as well as has fossils and living examples (read: every living creature existing right now) of transitional states in between living creatures, which is one of the arguments used in Creationism. While evolution is not a creationist belief, it seems to be linked very closely to the Big Bang in the mind of many people.
The Big Bang is the belief that the world was created by a gargantuan, huge-mongous (and I daresay I must use the adjective xboxhueg) amount of pressure and temperature on matter in an extremely dense point. Then, it all exploded! I'm assuming there was a really big and really loud bang. Anyway, this ties in neatly with the belief in evolution and spontaneous generation (the creation of life purely by chance). The Big Bang is potentially the most largely-accepted explanation of the creation of the universe in the world, and seems to make the most sense since the universe is expanding from a seeming central point (but somebody has yet to pinpoint exactly where).
So, That's All Fine and Well, But...
With these two, and one pretty much rendered invalid, and evolution pretty much proven--many of the God-believing folks may be disgruntled (though, I hope that the belief in the world being created in 4004 BC is becoming less prominent--it's just plain wrong). Of course, they've still got some things going for them. There's also a good amount of religious folks who believe that God caused the Big Bang and used it as a tool for creating the universe, as well as created evolution. Whether you picture the "lazy god" or the "intelligent design god", it doesn't matter--all we're arguing here is God V.S. Science in terms of creation.
Right now, though, let's rule out miracles and acts of divine creation, since the modern world don't swing that way (as much). There's still a problem with the Big Bang theory, though. That's the issue of: what happened before the Big Bang?
Tackling Nothingness
Now, we can assume one thing for sure: before the Big Bang, the laws of physics were still intact. They would have to be, right? We can also assume (I tip my hat to son_of_disaster, here--it would be a top hat if I were wearing one) that nothingness is completely invalid. The law of conservation of energy says that energy (that is, in any form, matter, heat, speed, etc.) cannot be created or destroyed, but can change forms.
What is nothingness, though? It's a tacky subject. The nothingness I am talking about is the absolute void, absolute nothing. It's the absence of anything. By definition (heh), it is impossible to perceive nothingness in any way, and it cannot move or be moved because that would give it a gaseous/liquid property (perhaps even solid, "blocks of nothingness")--which defies the definition of nothing. So, nothing can move it around--and nothing can move into it, because then it would become something. It would not bounce off either, because it's impossible for an object to bounce off of nothing. The only philosophically (and potentially physically, which is impossible anyway) sound interaction would be for something to fade into it, and simply disappear. Spooky, huh? But, the law of conservation of energy says that this just isn't possible.
This concept also brings us to a conclusion that God cannot exist within "nothingness" and create something out of it, because philosophically, nothing is simply that. Nothing. God would have to exist as a non-locational entity, or entirely on another plane of existence, or both, to create the world (if God were to manifest itself as any matter or energy currently known to man. More on this later).
This, of course, does not rule out any possibility of divine creation, at all--because God is omnipotent. Not that I'm rooting for any specific side, but I'm just saying, hope is not lost.
The Universe Before the Universe Was Made
So, with all this, we have revealed to ourselves (with some chagrin for some of us) a fact with a great many implications: the universe existed, in fact, before the Big Bang. This leads us to ask: What happened before that? What made all the matter in the universe condense into one tiny ball? We also might ask: how was the universe before the universe was made made? Then, if we're not satisfied by that answer--we may just simply go into an infinite loop. Then again, maybe that's how it works.
We know this much so far: Classic creationism is nix. Nothingness is non-existent, and invalid as a physical reality. Energy cannot be destroyed or created, only changed. The universe was not created with the Big Bang--rather, the pieces of the universe (all the matter in the universe, surmisably) was drawn into one single point--somehow.
Now, we have no clue where these pieces were in the first place. One would assume that they were not in that state in the first place--rather, they somehow got to that point. Somehow, somehow, somehow. But the question is begged, when were those created? Actually, I think that because of our law of conservation of energy, it may be possible that they were never created.
Comprehending Eternity and Infinity
Your first reaction might be: "Never created? What? But I'm alive right now! Everything is here!" Of course, I don't mean it that way. They exist, sure--but I mean they were never created, since the act of creation implies a certain time. I'm saying that they had always existed, both ways, into the past and into the future.
Infinity and eternity are two concepts that the human mind is simply incapable of fully comprehending. They are frequent topics in Hindu, Zen, Tao, Buddhist, and even many day-to-day eastern everyday lifestyle beliefs. There is no other way to put it as such: the universe either existed since ever and will exist for eternity, or the universe was spontaneously created whole (there's that nifty law going into work). By? Well, my guess is as good as yours.
Time was and always will be a concept created by humans, unfortunately, and we seem to have much trouble grasping anything beyond that.
If we are to assume that there existed something before the Big Bang, that something existed forever. Going by the law of entropy, this means that the universe had an infinite amount of time to decompose into who-knows-what--but most definitely not a super-condensed super-hot ball of matter. Except, of course, for the Big Crunch theory.
The Big Crunch
As I stated earlier, the universe is constantly expanding. In fact, for some reason, scientists have found that the universe is actually increasing in speed of expansion, as opposed to what they expected--a decrease in expansion speed. There exists a theory called the Big Crunch (what does the word crunch make you think of?).
Now, if a star is big enough, it will eventually run out of fuel, be unable to support its own weight, then collapse on itself. The gravity of it will become so strong that it turns into a black hole--and this only happens if the star is about 50 to 100 times the mass of our sun. If this happens, it will form a black hole and begin to suck everything around it into it. It's pretty much impossible to escape from a black hole.
The Big Crunch theory is the hypothesis that when enough stars go black hole, they begin to suck each other together, until they form one gigantic-mega-huge black hole. Black holes have an insane amount of pressure--perhaps, enough, to cause a Big Bang all over again. The Big Crunch theory can either be a view that insists that the universe will end as a ball crunched into one--or a view that insists the universe will end, then start over again via a brand spanking new Big Bang. This is actually large view in eastern belief systems, particularly Hinduism.
This is one viewpoint that seems most plausible to me. Of course, there's always a bunch of other ideas like the Big Freeze, the Big Rip, the Big Bounce, and many others. There's also Armageddon, so don't take my word for it.
We Still Have Questions!
Doubtless, we must wonder--what is outside of the universe? First, the universe has been recorded as a perfect sphere, anywhere from 13.7 to 180 billion light years to the visible edge of the universe (however, Wikipedia officiously opinions that 93 billion light years is the correct date, leaving the 13.7-180 billion bit as part of a statement about inaccuracies--tread carefully).
At the same time, there is also supposably no edge to the universe, nor is the universe actually expanding "into" anything--it's simply like a balloon, and everything seems to be expanding because everything is moving away from each other faster and faster. It also has to do with the curved space-time continuum. Apparently, if you look in any direction into the Universe far enough, you'll see the same thing. If only we had the time to do that!
Anyhow, we're jumping straight into metaphysics now. If there indeed exists something physically "outside" the universe, it would probably be simply, "emptiness". Not nothingness, but emptiness.
Eastern Emptiness Exasperates Eager Interns
Okay, so that title was a stretch, but that's not important.
An eastern belief that seems to underly all of the major beliefs (Taoism, Zen, Hinduism, and Buddhism--let me know if I missed any) there is a belief in "emptiness" and "potential", out of which all things arrive, and manifest. This field of emptiness underlies everything in existence, and perhaps extends even past the universe for infinity and eternity and on. This is interesting when compared to subatomic physics in quantum physics, because when subatomic particles change into other ones, or break apart or form again--they do not actually "change". Rather, they disappear--and then reappear--nearly instantaneously.
This emptiness is supposably the end all, is-is, infinite and eternal one-ness out of which everything is manifested (the relation of this funky wording needs to be carefully compared to the law of conservation of energy). It goes by many names, such as the Unmanifest and Potential, or whatever it is our strange translations call it these days. This is really the only idea I have for anything beyond the universe--if there is anything beyond the universe. If you want to know more about this concept, I suggest you read up.
In Conclusion
I should hope you weren't reading this blog seriously hoping for an answer to how the universe started--since nobody knows for sure. However, I hope this was able to shed some light on the matter and brought some new thought into a rather exasperatingly unknown topic (and still, how little we know). Feel free to leave your personal opinions and ideas about it, or questions, clarifications, corrections... all that jazz. Happy seeking, folks. :)




Wow, great blog man. Answered any and everything that was put forth by people in the Nothingness discussion. I have nothing further to say but that I agree with almost everything you put forth. Great job.
This makes me want to read... Xenocide and Children of the Mind again.
Of course, we could always just be nothing ourselves, all of this just some figment of someone's imagination. Very complicated imagination, but hey... you never know.
~C
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Owwwww..... my brain. That was the most amazingly revolting (in a good way) rant on science and metaphysics that I have ever read/stared blankly at.
I think that the current consensus is that there is not going to be anay big crunch and that the Universe will be expanding forever.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Nah.
It's my opinion that the Universe is like a big yo-yo. There's evidence that the expansion is slowing. I think that it's constantly expanding and contracting based on gravity and perhaps some forces we aren't aware of yet. As the Universe expands outwards, it only makes sense that it will pull itself back as the matter is attract back to itself and eventually overpowers the original force propelling it outward (the Big Bang).
Well, I'm no physicist.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
My one thing is that you didn't actually present evidence that creation is scientifically wrong. You stated vague reasons that I'd be interested in hearing more on. From the very beginning, you discount it with very little explanation but do not discount any other theories you mention. Now, I realize that because I'm a Christian I may be taking personal offense at what you said, but I don't truly believe that you presented enough evidence to discount creationism. I personally can't just take what someone says and believe it's true. Some people might think I'm lying when I say that because of my religion, but it's true. Of all the theories I've encountered, creation makes the most logical sense to me.
Ah, you're right, my apologies. Myself, I actually believe in divine creation--just that I don't know exactly when (nor do I think it would be measurable, at all). However, the belief that the world was created specifically, in 4004 BC, is just impossible.
First, there's radiometric dating, or radioactive dating. It's based around the premise that certain radioactive elements or compounds (not entirely sure) decay at a exponentially decreasing rate called a "half-life", which, as the name suggests, is half its total mass will decay away. Based on this, they can measure the radioactivity of certain stones, and radioactive dating shows that the earth is 4.55 billion years old (give or take one percent). Of course, this is the only date of creationism I know, so, if you have something that could fit, go for it.
A good deal of other dates are here, too. Who knows what other creation dates you could find all over the world wide web?
As for the transitional fossils bit, it seems a common belief that there are no transitional fossils showing the in-betweens of every animal--which simply isn't true. Every living thing is a living example of a transitional creature, since evolution takes place slowly--ever so slowly, in fact. However, you can see the effects of evolution simply through selective breeding or just random breeding with animals of small lifespans. I recall a study was done that actually managed to increase a fruit fly's lifespan by a major amount through selective breeding.
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"Your comment doesn't make sense. Whats this about Paris hilton? What are you talking about? You don't make sense." - alenka
My Blog.
Thanks for the info. What you say makes sense.
One question... what the heck is xboxhueg?!
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"In the Land of Memory, the time is always Now.
In the Kingdom of Ago, the clocks tick... but their hands never move.
There is an Unfound Door
(O Lost)
and memory is the key which opens it." -King
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HAHA, it's actually a purposeful mispelling of "xboxhuge", which makes fun of the insane size of the original Xbox (see this picture, courtesy of Maddox). The mispelling is used to emphasize just how hueg it is.
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"Your comment doesn't make sense. Whats this about Paris hilton? What are you talking about? You don't make sense." - alenka
My Blog.
I've heard of the Big Crunch theory, and I find it to be fairly plausible..and it also scares the qooq out of me...
Anyway, I've never heard anything about the universe having an 'edge'. Of course, there is no way of knowing at this point in time, but what do you meant by emptiness? Just pure darkness with no stars or planets? Why would the universe have an edge?
http://www.progressiveu.org/090204-dont-miss-this-chance
I feel like some topics on progressiveU have been overblogged. There is just so much on this topic, that I want to see something new.
DISCLAIMER: I am not being rude. I'm stating my opinion. No personal attacks are meant. Please give some leniency on how you take my words. imagine me saying them with a smile. ^__^
This is something new, I've yet to see a blog in this entire contest like Scyze's or the one I wrote on Nothingness.
I agree with son_of_disaster.
This is an awesome topic, and I'd like to see more of it.
My question to everyone is, "Who says philosophical, metaphysical, logic, science, etc can't be progressive?"
Not me... but I'd guess that truebeliever would argue that these things are not progressive towards the Lord.
I agree. We should only discuss my religion, that of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and why she is Pink, representative of her mood at the creation of the Universe.
She clearly supports homosexuality, because of her effeminate colouring.
No, we should only discuss my religion, that of our Father RaMen. Bow down before him, for he will end the world soon.
I will consume your God, and then proceed to consummate my relationship with The Invisible Pink Unicorn by doing her Horniness' will and performing the desirable acts upon you.
Hey, hey, hey, now... this sounds nice. I want in on some of this, okay?
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"Your comment doesn't make sense. Whats this about Paris hilton? What are you talking about? You don't make sense." - alenka
My Blog.
Her Horniness blesses all those who choose to enter into the light and realize that the Invisible Pink Unicorn is the One True Entity of Energy.
: )
Your Unicorn is WEAK!!!! We must ALL worship the Meek Dog!!!!
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
She will stab your dog with her Horn and then stomp him with her sharp and fabulous pink hooves.
And the best part is the Meek Dog can't even see Her Invisibleness coming.
The almighty Meek Dog will smell her approach and then she will disarm your little Unicorn with her cuteness before setting her minion, the horrible Timid, upon your sad little horse mutant.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Silly you.
The Invisible Pink Unicorn has no smell.
Everything has a smell to the mighty Meek Dog. The very existence of your Unicorn exudes an odor detectable by the awesome nose of the Meekness.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
It doesn't matter.
Her hooves are sharper and the Meek Dog's teeth, and She will Destroy all those who Refuse to Bow to her Horniness.
But the great Meek Dog is horn proof. Nothing that sees her can resist her cuteness. Your IPU will be totally disarmed. Even as the minions of the Mighty Meek tear her to shreds, the Invisible Pink Unicorn will be admiring the cuteness of the Meek Dog.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
lmao.
This conversation is getting out of hand.
Agreed. ror
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
You and I are on the same wave length. My belief is that everything that is was or ever will happen or exist is all happening and existing and happening at exactly the same time. Therefore, there is no before or after. And time is nonexistent. When I die, whatever death means, I want my body put into a rocket and propelled into space in one direction. Maybe I'll hit a wall and be brought back my life at a different point.
Who wants boring ideas like creationism when there are infinite possibilities?
My Motto
This post is an excellent overview of how the universe came to be. I am Christian, but I do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible version of creationism- that would be crazy.
As you mention, evidence obviously points to the fact that fossils and other species existed before our time- long before our time. This discounts the theory of creationism as viewed literally from the Bible.
Your insight into this subject is truly brilliant. I appreciate your heavily detailed and supported claims.
This is very simmilar with the arguments that I started few days ago on:
Please feel free to read.
http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum/showthread.php?p=42277#post42277
Yet still they are making a big fuss about my theory that is not compatible with Einsteins they are not so open minded, actually, how much intelligent those with Ph.D . they are still dumb comparing to Universe.
And pushing something that is declared and final to them, it's like making Universe final. I really beleive that the Universe is infinite, and at the same time representing itself to be finite, for and everything to exist. And yes Universe is constantly changing, It takes time for that. Some things are changing slowly and some are changing fastly, but still 1 second is still 1 second. ANd yet 1 second can be be a milisecond, still we made seconds and time by our earths rotation.
I argued with them also on the speed of light. This is the only the part of the whole questioning of them. To quote myself from the statements i had.
"You confirmed that is true if I and alien living on different and distant planets to each other, seeing the reaction that happened at point 1, at point 12. Due to the speed of light. If you want mathematics involved with this you really do not need complex math. Earth will be defined as point Z, I will not take Alien planet in this calculation because it is at the same distance as Z from the reaction (reaction - will call that Y). I will call Alien planet X for further calculation.
If Y occured at certain point of time that would be 1, Z would see Y in 10 seconds/years....etc. So lets take 10 seconds. The distance between Z and Y is 3 million km. A simple math.
Lets include X in this calculation. If Y shifted towards Z making it further to X, lets say 7 seconds to 13 seconds ratio in favour to Z, then Z would see Y much faster than X.
On these experiments, info about Y is given to X and Z from source is more than a second.
If Y is much closer than 300000km, take 1km for example, the information of Y doesn't take seconds not even 1 second, it takes a fraction of a second.
You see the red in quote?
So if information travels faster than c would make information received before sent. That is a paradox created by human. If some information exceeds c it would only be recieved faster throughout the space. Take less time.
Reverting back to X/Y/Z.
If X and Z are at the same distance from Y, and Y is providing info about Y's reaction faster than speed of light, then it wouldn't take 10seconds it would take less.
And you can say that I'm wrong, but this is more simplier explanation to all of this:
This experiment requires 2 balls that are growing by 1mm in 1 second, space and you as an observer.
Put one of those balls in a spacecraft and other standing in space. You move away to see the both start and the end of experiment all together.
Final destination of spacecraft and experiment is 10 lightseconds away, that is 3milion kilometers away.
Spacecraft from the start to the end will travel at the speed of light. No acceleration or deceleration.
At the end of experiment the ball in spacecraft will be larger by 10mm because 10 seconds have passed, and that goes for the ball that is doing nothing, it grew by 10mm. Going any faster the experiment will end at 9 seconds thus making both balls grow 9mm.
So do you see that aging has nothing to do with with the space and speed that is going through it. It only has to do with the time."
What do you think of my statement putted onto "genius" forum, that again they deny this?