Alright you jesus freaks, let's hear what you have to say. If you weren't to read from the four gospels within the bible then what would you know about Jesus? Is it possible that Jesus is figment of our imagination? At one time people once believed that a god on a chariot was responsible for moving the sun across the sky. Others believed that Poseidon ruled the sea. And some believed in the stories of a bird-headed god who reigned in Egypt. Is Jesus' story any different than these? Where are the remains of Jesus? How do we know that he even existed?
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We dont. But I cant seem to convince anyone of that. They are all so self righteous and throughly predictable with their defenses however.
"self righteous and throughly predictable"
Yep, some here sure are...
I have a friend who has a theory that the bible is a work of fiction that we have just put way too much though into. But then again, what's wrong with a little blind faith?
Blind faith leads to war. Don't believe me? Go back and look at the Crusades. Go back and look at all the times Jews have been massacred, or other people have been wiped out because "God said so". There's nothing wrong with faith, but blind faith prevents thinking, and therefore allows such horrible things such as President George W. Bush to happen... twice.
Aren't semantics funny? If the Crusades happened in this century, they would have been called terrorist acts.
Ahh, progress :)
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"Dream as though you'll live forever, but live as though there's no tomorrow" --James Dean
http://www.progressiveu.org/user/fanaile-drupal-org
Every now and then I get tired of sensationalist people like you who think they are brilliant for challenging God and/or Jesus. This is your lucky day, I have given myself twenty minutes to refute you.
There are secular records of the existence of a man named Jesus, particularly by temporally relevant Roman historians. Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus all come to mind. These were of course people of Roman paganism, far before Christianity was accepted by the Roman Emperor.
Asserting that Jesus never existed is puerile - the vast majority of secular scholars today acknowledge his existence.
What I'm sure you want to challenge is Jesus' divinity. (and if you still want to challenge his existence then I don't think we're going to get anywhere).
The answer to that of course, is no written record could ever prove an individuals divinity. Skepticism destroys any possibility of that, and I am fine with that. The protestant tradition has taken hold of this and traditionally proclaimed that man was saved sola fide, or by faith alone.
In response to what I feel is a burning desire to call out inconsistencies in biblical text, or for the masses to criticize Christianity, I must ask that you investigate The Confession of 1967. It is a portion of the Presbyterian Constitution that addresses how modern reformed Christians view the Bible - essentially as a book written by man, inspired by God that should be read in historical context.
Anyways, my twenty minutes are up - sorry, I went to the bathroom halfway through eating up some of my refutation time.
I recommend getting more educated on the subject you so desire to rant about.
I love to surf and thought of this person while reading your comment....
someone who may be an intellectual equal to you...
http://www.myspace.com/derfunkenstein
When you compare the events mentioned in the bible to events that actually occured, historians agree that very little was recorded that agrees with the bible despite their severity. One example would be the slayings of Herod. Far too little is written about our supposed "savior".
The so called secular recordings that you are refering to, carry an ominous suspicion of being forged by early christian followers. In fact, you mention 'Josephus'; he has been credited by many for claiming that Jesus was the messiah even though a later CHRISTIAN writer who studied such scriptures, Origen, pointed out that Josephus didn't believe Jesus was the messiah.
You can believe what you want to believe. I personally find it hard to rely so heavily on such shakey data. We know the Roman Catholic Church tampered with artifacts and other scriptures relentlessly. Their prosecution still lives on. Why is a witch always portrayed as an evil person? We can think early christians for that one.
This whole new "loose faith" thing is quite hilarious to me. It's like "this book might not be true, but we won't let go of it quite yet". Who's to blame? Our parents. We shouldn't force feed 'faith' as if it were knowledge to children. Then after hearing of Jesus' role in existence for many years, you tell them "oh, but you have a choice to believe in it or not". Racism works the same way. If you tell your son that black people are good for nothing for years and years (during his cognitive growth), it's going to be hard for him to think otherwise when he grows older.
Homosexuality is a sin? We're going to make same sex marriages illegal because it's written that homosexuality is a sin? What happened to "love your neighbor as you love yourself"?
Sorry. Different topic.
Where are Jesus' remains?
while some of the records have admittedly been tampered with, most historians secular and Christian believe that the part tampered with is the addition, in a different writing style, that Jesus was messiah in josephus' texts. However, Jesus existence is not disputed. This of course, is what your asinine blog posting was about, insinuating Jesus never existed and asserting that no records existed indicating that he ever existed outside of the gospels. That was what my response was about. I won't bother with the rest - I'll just write about it in my blog in upcoming days, you can check it out if you so please. You'll also probably notice my article in defense of gay marriage, at least with regard to the state.
I was discrediting your source of Josephus as proof of Jesus' existence. If his allleged writings are contrary to what he was believed to have originally stated, then he isn't a very reliable source.
I'm not saying it's impossible for Jesus to have existed. All I'm saying is that we don't really know all that much about Jesus, or if even existed. For having such a terrifying past, the church of Jesus Christ can't even prove that Jesus existed, let alone can they prove he was the messiah.
? his "alleged writings" have never been accused of being completely false - rather, that discussion of his divination was added. Nevertheless, there are credible records that the secular portion of his writing, discussing a man named Jesus who those who many followed as a leader, were not tampered with. Moreover, tacitus and pliny, other historians, also have similar records.
and I believe I already addressed the second paragraph.
My point is that the so called "evidence" of Jesus' existence is scarce at best. Not very promising for the "son of god". Mythology has been passed down as historical recordings before. Just because someone wrote about the story of Jesus 2000 years ago, doesn't mean that the story is non fiction.
Almost everyone agrees that Jesus Christ existed. So now it's the whole "God" thing that is up for question. First of all, you can't say...well, if the Bible didn't exist, would Jesus exist. Because the Bible does exist. That's like saying, would you believe in evolution if fossils didn't exist? They do exist so we can't really know what we would or wouldn't believe if they didn't.
Now, I'm absolutely sure that Jesus Christ is God and that He existed. I am also positive that we can get to Heaven through Him. He is the son of God. People ask for tangible proof. That obviously doesn't exist. But there isn't "tangible" proof for many things in this world. Is there tangible proof that Oswald shot Kennedy? No. Is there tangible proof as to how evolution occurred? No. The same goes for Jesus Christ. I have enough proof to satisfy my beliefs. He has performed so many miracles that I have witnessed and heard about.
I don't need "tangible" proof. God even says that blessed are those who have seen and believed, but those who have not seen and still believed are even more blessed. We need to believe in Him not only because of witnessing miracles, but because we know He is with us always, guiding us through life.
Jesus does exist. And no, I'm not just saying He "did" exist because everyone knows that. But He DOES exist and is with us in ever moment of our lives. And He will come again.
But how do we know the bible is correct?
How do you know Heaven and God exist? (And don't give me the usual the bible said so.)
There is tangible proof of evolution. In addition, more things have tangible proof than not.
How do you know that these miracles happened because of him and only him? Any modern day examples that can be independently verified?
I believe God exists because of the numerous things He has done for me and helped me through in my life thus far. He is with us every moment, performing miracles every second. And since I believe that he exists, I also believe that He created the Bible, so it is the truth. I know He didn't literally write the Bible, but He told the writers what to put.
If there's tangible proof of evolution, why isn't is considered a fact?
Because miracles aren't always just coincidences. Stigmata isn't usually just a matter of a person intentionally cutting themself. Transubstantiation happens at every Mass. How can anyone have a plausible explanation for the change of bread & wine into body & blood other than God? The visionaries who witness the Blessed VIrgin Mary every single day. The Holy wells that have healed sick people when they drink from them. The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, Italy. The miracles of Medjugorje. Nobody can tell me that these things are coincidences and whatnot.
What things has he done for you? How do you know it was him?
How do you know he told the writers what to put? (and don't tell me the writers say so)
Evolution is a fact, it is just some people refuse to believe so.
According to Wikipedia, "no case of stigmata is known to have occurred before the thirteenth century, when the crucified Jesus became a standard icon of Christianity in the west." Why?
With transubstantiation, how come the appearance doesn't change with the substance?
Visionaries? I can look at a picture and remember how it looked every day. Does that make me a visionary?
How do you know that it was the holy wells and only the holy wells that healed the sick people?
The Eucharistic Miracle is the same as transubstantiation. You don't need to repeat yourself.
How do we know that it is actually the Virgin Mary that appeared at Medjugorje?
He has answered my prayers. He has helped me get through tremendous struggles. He performs the miracle of the Eucharist for me and every other Catholic at every Mass.
I believe he told the writers what to put. I already said that. Since I believe in God, I believe He told them what to write and I believe that they did their duty to their fullest potential.
Evolution is not a fact. Scientists don't withhold facts from the public because "some people refuse to believe" them.
Is Wikipedia the best source? There is a priest currently alive who has stigmata. Padre Pio had stigmata. He was born in 1887 and died in 1968. http://www.ewtn.com/padrepio/man/biography.htm
There area also weeping statues all over the world.
Why would appearance have to change? So you'll believe? Blessed are those who DON'T see and still believe. And how willing would people be to eat bloody, human flesh, or to drink blood that looks like and tastes like blood. Yes, it would be the body and blood of our savior, but still, I bet many people would be too freaked out to actually consume it. And every once in a while, the appearance changes too. (I mention this again at the bottom of this comment)
A visionary is a person who has Mary appear to them every single day. There are many of these visionaries in Medjugorje and I know of soem from Dublin.
Because some of the healings occurred at that moment. For example, a priest I know went to the holy water, drank it, and literally spit out his brain tumor. Is there any other way that can happen then by God?
No it isn't. I'm referring to a specific Eucharistic miracle. In the Miracle of Lanciano, Italy, the bread literally turned into flesh. So the appearance can change too, and not just substance.
We can't know that is was her since we weren't there. That's where I have to believe.
His answer to your prayers may have been just coincidence.
How do we know that the Eucharist actually happens?
You believe the writers were told what to write by the same being. What evidence leads you to this conclusion?
Evolution is actually both a fact and a theory.
How do we know that Pio's stigmata was not self-inflicted and appeared because of God?
Weeping statues?
Yes, I would believe if the appearance changed. Or I would believe if someone who has tasted blood and body ate the bread and drank the wine recently and said it tasted like blood and body. But you siad that it tastes like flesh and blood. How do you know this without tasting it? Fools are those who blindly believe and do not verify.
How do we know that these visionaries are not hallucinating?
Spit out a brain tumor? I would need more evidence to believe that. When something is too good to be true, it probably is.
How come the bread turned into flesh only once?
"How do we know that the Eucharist actually happens?"
-Because it's been proven. Also, every once in a while it changes appearance too. And the rest is a matter of faith and believing without seeing, like I mentioned previously.
"How do we know that Pio's stigmata was not self-inflicted and appeared because of God?"
-So all the people with stigmata did it themself? I just do not believe that. And there has thus far been to evidence to prove that he has doing it himself. And he was very embarrassed of his wounds...always wearing gloves of some sort when he went out in public. They also caused him great pain.
"Weeping statues?"
-Yes...statues that have blood that seeps through them. This has happened with statues of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary.
That would be a ton of people who are hallucinating...and all seeing the same Mary. And all getting advice from her to bring to the rest of the world.
Well I obviously don't have evidence for the brain tumor incident. I just know it happened.
It didn't turn into flesh only once. It happens every once in a while. But the Miracle of Lanciano is just a really famous instance. It has happened on numerous other occasions.
How has the Eucharist been proven that every time this happens, the bread and wine changes?
Stigmata still doesn't make any sense to me and I don't believe in stuff I don't understand. And you still haven't told me why stigmata has not happened before Jesus. And why is it so rare? Are the people who get stigmata more religious than everyone else?
Statues with blood that seep through them? Unless they have blood in them, I do not see how this could happen.
You know something happened without evidence and believe it? You might as well accuse someone of being a sex offender without a shred of evidence to prove this person was a sex offender.
Supposedly the people who "suffer" (that's how they put it) stigmata are extremely religious; and the church has only recognized something like 3 cases of it. The rest the Vatican and the church have deemed as hoaxes.
Basically, it's supposed to be a severe case of psychosematic - they believe so much that they begin suffering the way they believe Jesus did.
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"Dream as though you'll live forever, but live as though there's no tomorrow" --James Dean
http://www.progressiveu.org/user/fanaile-drupal-org
It can't be proven every time because it is all consumed...not sent to labs to be tested. But in the past it has tested as a human being, even having a blood type. Now, how does this happen? Do you think that since it isn't tested every time that it doesn't actually change every time? That's ridiculous....of course they aren't going to go prove it every time. It's Jesus Himself, which is why the Catholic church is so adamant about revering the Eucharist and not consuming it on a full stomach, or with gum in your mouth. They also don't let you walk away with it. And they are cafreful to pick up any dropped pieces. Why? Because we don't want Jesus on the floor to get trampled on.
You know, there's a type of religion similar to Wicca and they actually pay Catholics to sneak the Eucharist to them. This means that they are acknowledging Jesus' presence. Then they do disgusting things to Him, such as urinating on the Eucharist, etc. But they never use the host from Protestant churches. Why? Because the Catohlic Church is the only one in which Jesus is present in the Eucharist in body, blood, soul, and divinity.
Why would stigmata happend before Him? What it is is His wounds. Before He died on the cross, that couldn't have happened because even He hadn't gone through the crucifixion yet. Why is it rare? Well, I know I wouldn't want stigmata. I wouldn't want my hands and feet bleeding incessantly. You could also ask why the weeping statues and visionaries are rare. That's just how God works. Like I've said so many times...we need to believe without seeing...but sometimes God probably knows someone who just needs to see for themself, so He performs a miracle such as this.
" Unless they have blood in them, I do not see how this could happen."
-Exaclty. It's a miracle. If God can turn bread into flesh, heal the blind, cure the lepors, etc, then why can't He make a statue bleed?
What religion are you speaking of here? "there's a type of religion similar to Wicca and they actually pay Catholics to sneak the Eucharist to them". I've never heard of any such thing, but if it is true - it doesn't sound anything closely related to Wicca at all, muchless similar to Wicca.
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"Dream as though you'll live forever, but live as though there's no tomorrow" --James Dean
http://www.progressiveu.org/user/fanaile-drupal-org
Peppermintfrost, please explain to me why there is no evidence of Jesus ever walking the earth other than the bible (not that the bible IS proof); explain to me why dinosaurs walked roamed the earth more than 50 million years before the first homo sapiens (which contradicts the bible); explain to me who created god; explain to me why god punishes us for sin he already knew we were going to commit; explain to me why you trust sexist dogma.
What seperates christianity from other religions? Would you kill for your religion? Muslim extremists do; in fact, they are more devoted to their faith than you are to your religion. Hindu scriptures predate any other religious doctrine; so, if anyone knows how existence came to be, it makes sense they would be the most accurate.
Blind faith gets us nowhere.
IS there proof that Mary walked the earth? Or the apostles?
Most people agree that He lived and walked the earth. Few people doubt that. What's doubted is whether or not He is the son of God.
No it doesn't contradict the Bible. And that's completely possible that dinosaurs were around first. I still believe in evolution, but I think God created the first animals, who later evolved into other forms.
Nobody created God. He's infinite. He always has been and always will be. It's hare for us humans to comprehend that, but He is just an infinite being with no beginning or end.
I don't believe it's sexist at all.
God has to punish us if we use our free will to commit a sin. He can't just stop us from sinning. Then what would the point of life on earth be? We'd all just go straight to Heaven. But it is only the worthy who can reach Heaven.
Christianity: Monotheistic, believes Jesus is the savior, the Holy Bible etc. Catholicism specifically believes in the Pope, saints, Virgin Mary, etc.
I wouldn't kill for my religion because that's hypocritical. "Thou shall not kill." Murder gets us nowhere. Though I would die for my religion.
It isn't blind. I am constantly reassured that it's correct.
I don't care what other people think about Jesus' history. I'm interested on how someone like you, who is willing to die for Jesus, can prove that he exists.
The bible says all land creatures were created a the same time, including humans. Humans, as adam is discribed in the bible, didn't come into existence until a couple hundred thousand years ago. What was the point of humans to evole? We roam around as primative beings for thousands of years until god decides we should start worshipping him?
So god is something that came from nothing? I thought the whole criticism of evolution was that something (the universe) can't come from nothing? What's god's role in existence?
We've debated this; I don't see where we have settled. If I remember correctly... God is only refered to as a masculine. God only had one child, a man. Men may kill their wife if she deviates from worshipping 'the god of Israel' but not the other way around. It was Eve, not Adam, who was seduced by the snake. How many female apostles were there? Men shall rule over their wife as Jesus rules over the church. How can you say the bible isn't at all sexist?
Our brains are like a computer in which they operate like a series of on and off switches. If someone we like, greets us, we are automatically put in a good mood. We have set traits. The decisions we make in life are based on our learned behavior (past experiences) and inherited traits from our parents. Free will is an incomprehensible word because it is impossible. We can't do whatever we want. There is a reason for every single choice we make. We cannot make a decision without our brain, and every single brain relies on some sort of previous setting (prejudice), one might say. Yes, we can reason. But our reasoning is restricted and controlled by our past-down traits. If anyone knows how we choose and what we will choose, it's your so called god. God allows us to constantly choose wrongly without interference even though he knows what we'll do, and knows we won't/can't change.
Why is heaven our goal? If I was a fundamentalist christian, and was worthy of heaven, I would dread death. In the same place with no purpose or goal would seem like hell.
Yes, the ten commandments said 'Thou shalt not kill'. But, in the bible, it gets a little hypocritical. It says to stone homosexual men, it says to kill spiritists, it says to kill anyone who tries to convert you to another religion. It says to kill non-judeochristians if they inhabit Jerusalem. Which should you trust? The ten commandments or the bible?
Would you call Muslims blind? How about Jews, Or Taoists? Or even the ever-so fundamentalist Brahmin monks?
"How can you say the bible isn't at all sexist?"
-There's many women in the Bible. The church is Christ's bride, therefore feminine. The Blessed Virgin Mary is by no means looked down upon.
No goal? It's eternal happiness. In Heaven, you're constantly in a state of ecstacy. You feel no humanly pain, sorrow, anger, etc. Every moment is a jouy-filled occasion. Dread death? Why? Once you die, you'll be united with you savior.
We don't agree about this either, but the Bible isn't always literal. And usually when a person is killed in the Bible it's in the Old Testament. Once Jesus came, he taught to love your enemies as yourself.
No, I don't call them blind. Many religions have relatively the same beliefs: to live a good, upright, and moral like so that one day we can reach Heaven, Nirvana, etc. Yes, they have their differences, but all religions have at least some things in common.
So only two feminine religious symbols? And how many male symbols?
Do you have any evidence besides the bible that heaven is a real place? And do you know for sure if you are going to heaven? How do you know that you will be united with someone? And if you want eternal happiness, why don't you go there now? Which parts of the bible are literal and which ones don't matter? So if Jesus says to love your enemies as yourself, then why all this talk of armageddon in the Left Behind series where the non-believers are left to feel his or Satan's wrath while all the believers go to heaven? I know its fiction and classified as such but many people have bumper stickers alluding to the series as if it was real.
"And do you know for sure if you are going to heaven?"
-Nobody can know 100% if they're going to Heaven. It all depends on what I do in my life...whether i live a moral life, or fall into sin.
How can I go there now? I can't just go walk into Heaven. It doesn't work like that. I can't kill myself so I can get there because suicide is a sin, which would make it harder to get to Heaven.
Just because we love our enemies does not mean that our enemies can reach Heaven.
So basically you are part of a deal where you don't know the other party. You live a moral life and then you go to heaven. Correct? So how do you know that the person on the other end will keep his end of the bargain? And so one sin means that you have not lived a moral life and are going straight to hell?
I was refering to the Left Behind series in which many people seem to be believing. In it, religious people all go to heaven all at once because Jesus saved them and the non-religious people feel wrath.
Because of my faith in Him. Thus far He has always kept up His bargain and been with me every minute of my life. I know He won't let me down.
No, one sin does not mean that. We can't know how God will judge us. What I do know is that if our souls aren't in a state of grace, we will not go straight to Heaven. That said, it doesn't necessarily mean we aren't going to Hell. There's also Purgatory. A place for the souls who aren't pure enough to get to Heaven, but aren't so bad that they deserve to go to Hell. In Purgatory, you stay there until your sould is clean enough for Heaven, and then you get to Heaven. Because Heaven is a place for only the perfect souls, so many people will stop in purgatory in their way there.
Also, God is merciful. Just because you didn't get to confess a sin before dying doesn't mean you'll go to Hell. He understands our deepest thoughts. If we were truly sorry for our sin, He knows that. Likewise, if we go to Confession, but really aren't sorry about our sin at all, He will know that too.
Well no, I don't believe that can happen. just being "Saved" does not mean that you'll make it to Heaven. You can fully believe in God, yet still screw up.
Been with you every minute of your life? How are we supposed to know this? You might as well believe in the existence Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as far as I am concerned.
Oh there's a third place? Is that all of them? Perfect souls? What is perfect and in a state of grace? (If one is trying to attain a goal, one should know everything about this goal, right?)
Any statistics on the number of people in each place?
How do you know god is merciful? How do you know he understands our deepest thoughts?
Any statistics on the number of people who screw up while believing in god?
"You might as well believe in the existence Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as far as I am concerned."
-Have the Easter Bunny & Santa performed miracles? Not that I'm aware of.
Being in a state of grace means that your soul is free from any and all sin.
"Any statistics on the number of people in each place?"
-Yea. God just sends me a little list every week of how many people are where. Is that really necessary?
Because He not only acknowledges those thoughts, but also answers them.
Everyone screws up...what I meant is that some people screw up really badly in the heat of the moment. They might not necessarily make it to Heaven.
So much trust lies within 2000 year-old rotting papyrus.
You don't understand. My faith doesn't lie solely in the Bible. I have seen God working in my life and the lives of some of my friends and family members.
How do you know it was God working in your life and not something else? Some people are quick to jump to conclusions even though the accuracy of them can be questionable sometimes.
I do not think that people can claim something to be true without any proof. Maybe the idea of god helped them, but not god itself, because it does not exist. Believing something to be true when it is not can have effects on people which can wrongly be attributed to something or someone that does not exist.
First of all, I wasn't as strong and devout a believer as I am today. At points in my life, I was skeptical about God's existence. That said, a few years ago my mom made me go to a retreat with my youth group called the Steubenville East Conference. I didn't want to go. I wanted to go hang out with my friends. But it changed my entire life and changed my relationship with God. It was basically thousands of teens worshipping Him. It was absolutely amazing. During adoration, so many people were falling down and resting in the Spirit. Others were sobbing. And some were crying. No English words can even do this instance justice. Since then, God has been my number 1.
Now I said before that he has helped my throughout my entire life. When I was about 12 years old, I didn't notice that. I went to church because that's what I had to do. Now I realize how He was, in fact, with me through everything. So right now you don't realize He's with you, but hopefully one day, you'll look back and realize how much He actually blessed your life.
He has let me rest in the Spirit. He has let me witness miracles. The Eucharistic miracles. The Medjugorje miracles. Healing. A saint who died hundreds of years ago, yet has still not rotted out or anything. The Miraculous Medal and it's effects. So many miracles. Those things are all proof for me.
So you started believing in god because of peer pressure? That is what it sounds like.
Anyone can convince themselves to believe in anything. If you want to rest, you will rest and you will find anything to justify your actions, whether true or false. It is all in the mind.
So you have witnessed the Medjugorje miracles? Didn't that happen some place in Europe?
People don't rot out if they are handled by an undertaker. Preservation of dead people has been practiced as far back as the Egyptians.
No I always believed in His existence. I just didn't believe in just how magnificent He actually is. And no, it isn't peer pressure. It wasn't like I just believed because everyone else was. me and my best friend were set on being stubborn the whole weekend. But once it was over we desired God in such a depper way and realized His importance.
I've gone to Healing Masses and been so stubborn saying in my head, "I will not fall, I will not fall." But then the priest comes around and I can feel my feet getting shaky until I finally fall.
No I have never gone to Medjugorje personally. But I have spoken to people who have gone there and been healed, people who are visionaries there, etc. And one visionary has a book that is essentialy written my Mary. What you do is pray to Mary, then open a random page of the book, and it fits your circumstance perfectly. For example, the otther day I was writing a post about Mary and the paragraph of the book mentioned writing about her and evangelizing by written word. It fit my exact circumstance perfect. And this happens every time I open the book.
But this saint had nothing done to her when she died. She was not embalmed or anything, yet she is in perfect form.
Peer pressure can work in subconscious ways. If everyone was as stubborn as you, would you have walked away with the same feelings?
I thought you said you saw the miracles. Fitting a circumstance perfectly does not tell anything about whether it is accurate. People can twist what they see in order to make themselves see only what they want to see and nothing more.
How do you know she had nothing done to her? Did she die in a time where dead bodies were just left out in the open?
Yes, I would have walked away with the same feelings because it wasn't the people around me who deepened my faith...it was my God.
I did see miracles. The Eucharistic miracle every time I go to Mass. A woman who eats nothing but the body & blood of Christ (no water, vitamins, etc), and is healthier than ever before. Etc.
Because I'm not as cynical as you. How do you ever believe anything if everything I say, you try to say is false. It's a miracle. She's left the same way she was when she died.
We do not know for sure whether the people around you affected your actions.
People can live off of wine and bread alone, so the woman does not count as a miracle.
I say something is false only because I see it that way, regardless of who said it. So if everything you say is false, than I will say it is false.
"People can live off of wine and bread alone, so the woman does not count as a miracle."
-Oh really? I wasn't aware that a person could live a healthy life on only one small sip of wine and one tiny piece of the Eucharist every day. It's not like she can eat all the bread and wine she wants. And it isn't the bread and wine...it's the body and blood of Christ, which is why she's so healthy. No doctors know why she's healthy. You need other vitamins and minerals. No, you can't just live off of that and remain healthy unless it's a miracle.
People can claim anything that can be communicated. How do we know that she only had one sip of wine and a tiny piece of bread? People can eat all the food they can get their hands on if they want to. We should not jump to conclusions without verifying facts.
Maybe he did exist. But maybe he saw things that we now know as hallucinations. Medical anomalies did not just start existing because they were discovered, they were around from before then. For more information on hallucinations, go to http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003258.htm
Or maybe he tried to explain his world with what little he knew. The problem is, we know a lot more now than what he knew back then.
Or maybe he did not exist as the savior people claim him to be. Maybe he was just someone trying to find a reason to rebel against an empire he did not like. There are many examples of how religion can be used to exert control over people, for good and bad.
But this question hasn't been answered: Where are Jesus's remains? Most people will probably say he just defied gravity and disappeared, all while being dead. But nobody can defy gravity. The people who 'discovered' this did not think about how someone, probably a Roman, could have gone in, taken the body, and burned it so there would be no remains left. Sounds harsh, but there is no evidence that I know of that refutes this.
Well, can you prove that Alexander the Great ever existed? Or Julius Caesar?
--Mike
Yes. Julius Caesar and Alexander both were authors and kept records of their wars. Jesus didn't write anything.
I'm still not willing to die for Julius' and Alexander's wills and beliefs, or even devote my life to believing that they existed.
"I'm still not willing to die for Julius' and Alexander's wills and beliefs, or even devote my life to believing that they existed."
I'm not just devoting my life to Jesus Christ because of His beliefs. He is God. His beliefs are the only true believes in the world. He is the only Way, Truth, and Life. With Him, absolutely anything is possible. You can't say the same for any other human being.
I believe that if I drop a book outside, it will fall to the ground. This is because of gravity. I do not think that Jesus believed in gravity, so is gravity false? I am also typing this entry on my computer on Friday June 16. That was the truth. Jesus did not say this is true. Does that mean I am lying? Anything is possible? Sounds like wishful thinking.
"is because of gravity. I do not think that Jesus believed in gravity, so is gravity false?"
-Do you know He didn't believe in gravity? Because I never heard about that.
Jesus never could have said every little thing that's true. That would be unrealistic and unnecessary. What He did do, was provide an outline for how we should live our lives in a moral way. He showed us the way so that we can follow Him.
With Jesus, yes, absolutely anything is possible.
Do you know if he did believe in gravity?
You said "His beliefs are the only true believes in the world."
Therefore, you implied that any other beliefs such as the belief in gravity would be false in the eyes of Jesus.
Anything is not possible. Some impossible tasks (as of today):
-Shaking God's (if there is one in the first place) hand
-Getting the dead to talk back to you like living people talk to you
-Immortality for dead people
-Traveling faster than the speed of light
-Breaking into every home in the world with malicious intent
-Shooting death rays from your eyes
-Etc.
okay so this one isn't supposed to be in here...sorry, i hit the wrong button before i started typing my comment.....i don't know how to delete comments, or even if you can.....
well there have been things discovered, mainly in Iraq, that are part of the bible....like the location of Babyl, a city/state in the bible, or Noah's Ark, and things like that....and they found the shroud that Jesus' body was buried in......
Babylon existed as the capital of the Babylonians. Just because a book mentions a place that exists doesn't mean everything else is true.
Unless you are talking about a Wisconsin Dells water park, Noah's Ark has not been found.
The actual shroud has not been found, but forty shrouds have been presented. Just do a google search on "Jesus shroud".
I believe the noah's ark thing was inconclusive... I saw it on TLC it was fallen trees or something
And ancient babylon is mostly Baghdad and the surronding areas... I guess it took a genius to find where it was...
I don't see any point in debating religion. No one belief is right and no one belief can be proved. We're all just trying to live the best lives we can.
You just said no one belief is right meaning that they all are wrong, or wrong in one aspect. Sounds like you see a point afterall.
There is proven evidence that the bible goes hand in hand with history. One example is the Arc. Researchers have found the type of wood the bible says it was made out of , in the location where it says Noah landed. So there is physical evidence, like i told you and spiritual evidence where prayers have been answered. Evidence is everywhere.