This is part one of a document I will hopefully eventually be submitting for "prior learning" college credit. Comments are greatly appreciated!
Until I was twelve, I didn’t know what the word “lesbian” meant. My mother enlightened me when a new girl joined my sixth-grade class. “Be extra-nice to her,” she told me. “She got bullied a lot in the past because her mother’s a lesbian.”
“What’s a lesbian?” I asked.
“It’s a woman who likes other women instead of men,” my mother explained.
I didn’t think much of it at the time. I lived in a very conservative, religious town in the West Bank of Israel, and I hardly knew any boys because contact between unmarried boys and girls was frowned upon, so it didn’t seem strange to me that a girl would rather live with another girl than with a boy. This was partially due to my mother being an American, more liberal and modern than the other women in the community, and thus more accepting of GLBT people.
At thirteen, I was the youngest and smallest in the small, religious, all-girls high school I attended. I was shy and depressed, the classic loner.
The sex education in my school didn’t mention homosexuality at all. As was typical for such schools, the only sex education was in the twelfth grade, when girls were taught about the Jewish laws of “family purity”, in preparation for their expected future as good Jewish mothers.
This is not to say though, that we were brainwashed or received a second-rate education because we were female. School ran six days as a week, four of which ended at five pm. As well as studying bible and Talmud - the latter once forbidden to women - we also learned English, computers, biology, physics, and more.
In the one year I attended high school, I developed my first crush on a girl. Her name was Galya. She was seventeen years old, a junior, and the most beautiful creature I had ever seen. She had long, thick, red hair, and she always wore the most incredible dresses, as if she was about to go to a wonderful celebration. She was kind and sweet and easily the most popular girl at school - and the most popular among the soldiers that guarded it, most of whom were boys only a couple years older than her. She had a beautiful voice and an amazing smile. Occasionally that smile was directed at me, and when it was, I felt as though I was floating on a little cloud of happiness the rest of the day.
At thirteen my crush was childish and innocent - I didn’t recognize it as a crush at the time. I only knew that I worshipped the ground that girl walked on. A year later though, after having the concept of homosexuality re-explained to me and after a few more crushes on girls - including another redhead who said she’d kiss me on Sylvester but never did - I realized that I might very well be lesbian myself.
Once I began identifying, at least to myself, as lesbian, the hate and discrimination against GLBT hit me hard, and I began to realize how deeply it affected other GLBT kids, even in my own community.
One day, at the one sole GLBT center in Jerusalem, I ran into a neighbor of mine. Not just any neighbor - this boy had been my “boyfriend” when I was nine. His father was an upstanding man in the community who sold religious texts, his mother was my former homeroom teacher, and his uncle ran the farm/petting zoo where I volunteered.
My childhood sweetheart was called Seph, and he was gay. He was slender and shy and constantly anxious, shrinking into himself as though he was trying to become invisible - trying to hide himself, his true identity, his secret.
He was not out to his family, of course. His mother, a somewhat more liberal woman than most, would perhaps accept him - she had eight other children, after all, she would not lack for grandchildren just because one son turned out gay. His father, however, would be devastated and likely exile Seph from his family - possibly even sit shiva as if his son had died. This was not because he was a cruel man, but because he was deeply religious and couldn’t, at least by Seph’s reckoning, reconcile his beliefs with his son’s homosexuality.
So Seph stayed silent. I haven’t seen him in several years. He would be nineteen now, probably in the army, probably still silent. Losing one’s family is a steep price for coming out of the metaphorical closet. Too steep, for many.
My own family did not ostracize me. I came out first to my thirteen-year-old brother, sobbing into his shoulder - he patted me on the back and told me it was okay. My mother said she would love me matter what. My father silently disapproved, but accepted me, even if it was with some reluctance.
Others around me, though, like Seph, were not so fortunate. Aside from Seph, I knew of no GLBT kids in our town. Most were probably in the closet, because in my town, if you were gay and out, everyone knew. The mother of that new sixth-grade girl was, as far as I know, the only openly lesbian woman in town, and everyone knew of her - not because she donated thousands to the local school (which eventually began to turn down her donations because of her sexual orientation), not because she was a wonderful judo instructor, not because she was cool and funny, but because she was lesbian. If someone was giving instructions to someplace near her, they’d say something like, “Go past Te’ena street down Gefen, pass the lesbian house and turn left…”
Once I tried coming out to some girls outside my family and the GLBT group in Jerusalem. I told two of my former classmates (I dropped out of high school when I was fourteen, due to severe depression), and they, knowing a little of my past, concluded that I must be gay because of what had happened to me. They were kind, but their stance was clear: I was sick and should seek treatment to make me straight.
Many others did not even receive this meager sympathy. During the time I spent in the GLBT center, I met dozens of kids who were homeless because their families threw them out after discovering their sexual orientation and others still who suffered abuse at home for the same reason. The “kindest” families tried to get their gay, bisexual, or transgender sons and daughters committed to psychiatric institutions to “fix” them. The children of the latter group faced particular difficulty, as often they did have psychiatric disorders such as depression and PTSD as a result of the discrimination and abuse they faced. I soon discovered that much of the GLBT community suffers in one way or another from these issues. As a result, I began volunteering as a peer counselor online, to youth with all sorts of problems and issues, but primarily, at first, with GLBT youth.
If you enjoyed this post, please give it a high rating! :)
:dances:
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
Yeah, I gave you a five (rating whore) :)X
I can't even imagine how difficult that must have been. Back when I was gay (briefly explained in my deconstructing sexuality posts), I thought it was the end of the world when my fuckboy (we weren't going out or anything) and I were caught by his mother.
She freaked the fuck out. My parents were cool with it, much to my surprise.
For a while after, I decided I was bisexual. One of my friends outed me. I didn't receive much castigation besides "do you think he's hot?" It was more annoying than anything.
Eventually, I came to realize that I was 'straight' but still queer (I actually have a crush on this cute SDS boy whom I'll probably never see again...I think he's straight...plus, I have a girlfriend whom I love very much). I don't really give much creedence to the notion of hetero/homo binaries (or even trinaries if you want to throw bisexual in there).
Um...I don't know what my point was there.
--Mike
Check out the Topic of the Week
http://www.progressiveu.org/weeklytopic
Thanks :D
And labels are silly. I dunno if I'm lesbian now and I couldn't really care less. :D
Why do you think it is that many closet men find themselves hitting on and/or liking straight men?
What is it that drives a man to obtain the unobtainable?
The sheer glory?
...probably because straight men make up the majority of the male population, thus statistically gay men are more likely to crush on them than other gay men? :p
I thought this was a very well-written essay, and was quite enjoyable to read. I liked your style and point of view very much.
Thank you! (psst, ratings!)
For, like, two weeks two summers ago. I want to hear more! When's part 2?
Also, one typo I saw (I am so not that critical, but you asked): You typed "identify" instead of "identity" in the section about Seph.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Uh, part two hasn't been written yet. :p it's less personal though. It'll be like... "I discovered that GLBT youth suffer from such and such issues" and a bunch of studies and stuff, mostly more about my experience as a peer counselor.
Typos are so annoying. *fixes*
"trying to hide himself, his true identity, his secret."
That part? Cuz, it says identity there.
That's because I fixed it when I promoted your blog to the front page.
: )
...I just saw that! I grinned so hugely, that totally made my day. :D
I thought I was crazy.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Well... nobody argues that... but you're not crazy because of this particular incident.
:)X
8-}
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
See? I'm not always angry. Sometimes I even have a sense of humor.
/::)
Word. XD
i rated you very well! i really enjoyed this. I know you said you were submitting this for a college class, so i wanted to point out the only spelling error i found.
"Other around me, though, like Seph..." it should be others. I put it in context so you could find it.
REALLY WELL DONE :D
-dåh
"to be the worst of any downfall, you have to be unable to get back up."
Thank you :D And, will fix that!
You have a fascinating story that you've told beautifully in clear and elegant writing. Well done!
"What was never given utterance eventually becomes too nebulous to recall."
~ Jane Smiley
Thank you :)
I definetly give you five.
To come out in the open the way you did had to have been hard. Several of my friends are gay or lesbian. I have learned to accept them for who they are. Many just like you have a story. I am so interested to hear more about you and your life. Although I have been straight all my life I still get persecuted for having lesbian and gay friends. The thing I learned is to just stand on my feet and take care of my friends. They are my world and I don't know where I would be without them. I hope your life has worked out well for you and that you have a happy ending.
Thank you for standing up for your friends! Allies are so important.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Everyone has a story.
Thank you. :)
I really enjoyed reading your post. When you grow up, you learn so many new things about the world, and about how you feel and react to things around you. I know growing up, I had a lot of lightbulb moments. None of mine had to do with being gay but I appreciate how you introduced your internal struggle. It was very poetic, in a way.
Thank you. :)
:dances: If you post part two soon I will make you cookies : ) Please please please. I want more.
...special cookies? O: *cough*
I have to actually write the thing first. Plus I don't think it's quite as interesting anyway (it is to me, otherwise I wouldn't write it, but it's less personal and more about psychological stuffs). But expect it within the next week (at most).
I am not Im just opinionated. I dont judge your sexuality nor do I agree. I feel like the families of gays and lesbians shouldnt stop loving them even if they dont agree. Also I believe that homosexuality is taught. The lady that you were talking about I think what they did to her was so rude. I was taught that even if you dont agree with someone preferences you dont make them feel as if they are less than you. I was taught to love all mankind. And them not accepting her money was retarded because even she was straight a gay person probably already touched the money she was donating.lol Bet no one thought about that.
Just cause you think another girl is pretty doesnt mean you are lesbian. I think many females are pretty but I just dont want them. The only reason I said that is because you said that you had a crush on a junior girl, but perhaps you just wished you looked like that. I know I have been there before. Wishing I looked like another person. The paragraph about Gayla was very interesting because you explained this girl to the point where I could almost see her.lol Maybe you just wanted to be her friend Im not sure, because this paragraph only made me believe that either you wanted to be her friend or maybe have her popularity. I didnt get lesbian from it.
Lesbian or straight no one should make you feel like you are less than them!!! Its just plain wrong. My dads side of the family has a lot of gays and even though I dont agree I dont hate them either. I love them no matter what.
Much Love
Why do you think it's a choice? Why would I choose to be discriminated against?
I am quite sure I am lesbian. :)
I am sorry, I don't agree with homosexuality and I do think that it, like anything else, can be overcome. You can hate me all you want, but please know that I do not hate you or even think any less of you because you like girls. I believe in my heart that lesbian thoughts are a sin, just like thoughts of stealing or lying is a sin, and that any sin can be forgiven because Christ died for all of them. I also believe that all things are possible in God (Christ) because He strengthens people; so it is possible to 'stop' being a lesbian and instead honor God with your thoughts and actions. That is, you don't have to commit that sin anymore, because God can help you through it. I'm not talking smack, either, because I know people who have done this; asked God to forgive their homosexuality, and turned away from it. And it has worked for them! One of these friends, Tim, is married now, to a woman, and he hasn't had a homosexual thought for about eleven years. The others all now have significant others of the opposite sex. It is possible. You should think about it.
Please don't judge me; I'm not naive or upright or even very religious. I am Christian, and when I choose to believe something (the Bible), it is because I am truly convinced that it is the veritable truth, and I believe all of it. I'm just sharing some of those Biblical truths with you, if that's alright.
Why would anyone choose to be gay or lesbian? Every day, kids and teenagers are brutally murdered for being gay or lesbian, do you think they CHOSE to be that way? Chose to be persecuted by everyone around them?
I believe that plenty of homosexuals choose to be that way and I would be offended if I were gay and you told me it was because I was forced to love the person I love. When you have strong feelings for someone of the same sex, ones that would make you CHOOSE to be with them for the rest of your life, it is more than just hormones.
Even though I'm not homosexual I know that my friend has tried both women and men and he chooses to be gay. To say you are preordained by some meager cells that compiled to make your body to either love a man or a woman is blasphemy to the idea of love itself. In fact I'm gonna make a blog post about this, thank you for the inspiration.
locke
Um, it is preordained. Can you choose to be gay, for instance? Can you see men as attractive? You're not "forced" to love the person you love... but you don't wake up one day and think, "Oh, I think I'll fall in love with this person." It just happens, you can't control your feelings. Neither can you control what gender you find attractive.
Maybe the reason your friend 'chose' men was because he was, in fact, gay.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
please, read my post again. I didn't say that being of the homosexual gender is a choice, not once. In the Bible, it says that all humans are sinners. All people have been opened up to sin, because that's how we roll. And all sin is on the same level, no matter if you are snatching a candy bar from the store, committing murder, or dating someone from the sex as you. Furthermore, all sin can be forgiven and overcome. If you logically put two and two together, you come up with this: homosexuality is a sin, and it can be forigven and stopped. That's all I'm saying.
have a blessed day!
So god has made people who are naturally attracted, sexually and romantically, to people of the same sex and that, if they allow themselves to enter into a romantic relationship with a person, that they will be being sinful and that, therefore, the only way to live lives that will lead to heaven is to avoid love. Is that what you're saying?
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
No, in the bible, Paul says that all humans are sinners. Paul also is the only one who mentions homosexuality (besides leviticus). Paul also never knew Jesus during his lifetime...
--Mike
Check out the Topic of the Week
http://www.progressiveu.org/weeklytopic
As I recall, the translation is iffy on that one.
Even if it's not, that's a former rabbi. Why wouldn't he keep those beliefs?
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
Galatians.
He wasn't a former rabbi, he killed Jews before he had his "vision".
--Mike
Check out the Topic of the Week
http://www.progressiveu.org/weeklytopic
Ah.
Close enough to some rabbis I've heard. lol
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"One of these friends, Tim, is married now, to a woman, and he hasn't had a homosexual thought for about eleven years."
How do you know he hasn't had a homosexual thought in 11 years? Have you read his mind? Or, perhaps, it's because he wanted to be accepted or because of his religious beliefs that he's gone way to the back of the closet?
One last thing. Try and be gay. When it works, you can tell people that it's a choice.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
no, you're right, I don't have any logical way of knowing his thoughts. However, I do know him as a person, and he does not lie. He is one of those people who just doesn't. So when he tells me that he hasn't had a homosexual thought or desire in eleven years, I believe him. Also, we are good enough friends that he doesn't have to worry about being accepted by me; it is a given fact. It is very brash and brazen of you to judge our friendship and his honesty when you, in fact, don't know either of us.
and i never said its a choice!
have a blessed day!
"and he does not lie. He is one of those people who just doesn't."
Perhaps he's convinced himself...
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but the whole "homosexuality is a choice" thing gets on my nerves. And it's BS.
whoa, whoa!!!! you can't quote something i didn't say. if you read my post, I never said that "homosexuality is a choice." I didn't say it because I don't belive it. Sometimes, people have a compulsive problem with sinning, like a cleptomanic. It is a chronic thing, a type of sin that just doesn't go away on its own. And do you think those people chose to be cleptos? No. They didn't. Just like homosexual people didn't choose to be homosexual. It is, biblically, a sin, and all sin can be overcome, and that is all that I was trying to say.
P.S. I am a very tolerant person; I happen to have quite a few openly homosexual friends. I share my beliefs with them, and niether of us call each other B.S. If you profess to tolerate homosexuals, then why can't you tolerate my beliefs? please don't ever, ever call anyone or anything B.S. It is just so immature.
have a blessed day!
"Also I believe that homosexuality is taught." That sentence is in the same line as the "homosexuality is a a choice" attitude, which I PUT IN QUOTATIONS BECAUSE IT IS AN ATTITUDE AND THE WORDS CANNOT BE SEPARATED AND MAKE SENSE. Would you prefer if I went:
homosexuality-is-a-choice
Would that make my intent more clear? I KNOW you never said those exact words. I was calling the attitude you expressed that, not saying that you used those words. My apology for the misunderstanding.
"P.S. I am a very tolerant person;" If you WERE tolerant, you wouldn't think it was a sin.
"If you profess to tolerate homosexuals, then why can't you tolerate my beliefs? please don't ever, ever call anyone or anything B.S. It is just so immature." Oh, my apologies for telling you that it is bullshit to think that homosexuality is a choice. I wasn't calling YOU "bullshit." I was calling the attitude I was talking about "bullshit." And, I'm not TOLERANT of homosexuals. I AM DATING A GIRL. I am bi. I am PART OF THAT COMMUNITY, thank you very much for picking up on that. It means a lot that you think I would open my mouth about something I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT...like some people...
wait, I never said that "Also I believe homosexuality is a choice," either. I think you may be replying to the wrong person. oh well. and I didn't say that I personally think homosexuality is a sin. That is what the Bible states, and since it is a book that I follow closely, I believe it.
and I am tolerant of homosexuals; many of my friends roll that way and I love them just the same as when they were 'still in the closet.' oh and if you were trying to simply keep the 'homosexuality is a choice' attitude in quotes, you could have used these type of singular quotes, so that then there would have been no confusion.
have a blessed day!
THE QUOTE I USED WAS "Also I believe homosexuality is taught" NOT "is a choice."
If you look back at your post, it's in the first paragraph.
"and I didn't say that I personally think homosexuality is a sin. That is what the Bible states, and since it is a book that I follow closely, I believe it."
Well...If you hadn't said it before, now you have. Thank you, and good night.
Wait, taught? Please explain how I might have been "taught" homosexuality.
She's saying someone else said that.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Michelleshell said that, and I'd like to know what she meant, as well.
It is a choice just like I choose to be straight. When I think a man is cute it is my choice if I want to date him or not. So if I think a female is pretty it is my choice if I approach her or not. Yes you can change your ways and not make those choices. Everything is up to you. Regardless of what most homosexuals think. You all are not really discriminated against. Now days society makes it okay to be homosexual. Television has channels just for gays. You all can adopt. You can do everything I can do so no people are not discriminating against you. I was taught it is wrong. So thats what I believe. I went to school with openly gay people and no I didnt act any different towards them. Maybe in sixties or something you would have been killed but now people are so accepting of gays.
I had many friends who were and some still are gay. No I dont agree nor do I think you are born with it.
Much Love
Look up Matthew Shepard. Then tell me people are so accepting of gays.
And there's a huge difference between thinking someone is cute or pretty and being attracted to them and loving them and wanting to spend the rest of your life with them. I think a ton of girls are pretty. That mean I want to jump into the sack with them? No. I think some guys are cute, but that doesn't mean I could form a relationship with all of them, or even love them.
And even though you might bitch me out too for saying it, please use the reply link at the bottom of a comment to respond to it. Thanks.
~C
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I didnt realize you meant the link at the bottom of the comment I just thought you meant the comment box at the bottom. I will be looking up that person. I am sorry if you feel that I come off insensitive to the people who do lose their lives. I feel it is wrong regardless of someones sexuality to be killed. If this person Matthew was someone close to you I am sorry for the loss and pray you all have peace in your hearts.
No, I do not think you insensitive, merely ignorant of the extreme discrimination. I give you one name to help remove that ignorance so it does not become willful ignorance (which is when it becomes bad). Matthew is but one example of how our society is still a long way from accepting GBTL individuals.
I did not personally know him. I only heard a great deal about him from the movie made about him, the Laramie Project.
~C
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Dont ever call me ignorant. I never call anyone ignorant on here for their beliefs and I expect that same respect.I dont know how many times I have to say that I know some are ostracized I know you are not gay but you have some friends that are. So do I. At the same time I have my beliefs and you have yours my friends know how I feel about the situation but they know I'll always be there. Like I said to someone else on here I have never personally seen this discrimination and also said I am sure it does happen but not all of them are discriminated against.
Being ignorant isn't a bad thing... It just means that you don't know much about a certain subject.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I didn't call you ignorant, I said you were ignorant of the situation, which you are... you didn't know about it, so I told you. I didn't say you were ignorant because of your beliefs... merely that you didn't know about the situation elsewhere. You said gays are readily accepted in our society, which is false, even if that has been your experience.
People can't know everything about everything, and as such, ignorance is not a bad thing. It is only once someone gives you information and you CHOOSE to ignore it that it becomes bad.
~C
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"It is a choice just like I choose to be straight. When I think a man is cute it is my choice if I want to date him or not. So if I think a female is pretty it is my choice if I approach her or not. Yes you can change your ways and not make those choices."
Oh, REALLY? People CHOOSE to fall in love with someone? Since when was "blind love" thrown out the window? Love doesn't GIVE you a choice.
Trust me, if I'd had a CHOICE in the matter, I would NOT have fallen for my girlfriend. IT JUST HAPPENED.
"Maybe in sixties or something you would have been killed but now people are so accepting of gays."
WRONG. I guarantee you, the only reason there aren't more hate crimes commited by homophobes in the U.S.A. is that the laws are now against them.
We're not really discriminated against?? Did you even READ my post?
Oh, and by the way, EVERY SINGLE DAY gay people are ortracized, abused, and brutally murdered. That's in the USA, too. My friend just came out to her parents and her mom wants to kick her out to the streets. I know a dozen kids off the top of my head who were made homeless after they told their parents they were gay. No, we can't all adopt. We can't marry. We can't go to school without being bullied. We can't hold hand on the streets without risking being beaten up or murdered. We can't live a normal life without people discrminating against us. We can't have our friends or even our family. Etc, etc.
Do you CHOOSE to think a guy is cute? O.o If so, try CHOOSING to think a girl is cute, just to see what it's like. Do you CHOOSE to be attracted to guys? Do you CHOOSE to fall in love with guys? Yes, I can choose to never approach girls, never date girls, never marry a girl. But I'll still be gay, so what's the choice there?
I say poop because I am working on my langauge.LOL Im getting better.Yay Me!
I know that there are some truly evil people out there who hate gays so much they want take them out. And yes it is wrong for people to kill you for that or make you feel like you are nothing. Is it wrong for Christians to hate you and say they are Christian? Yes it is.Is it wrong for them to dislike your lifestyle? No we have an opinion too and our beliefs matter just like you feel yours do. I know some of you are killed and abused but some are not. I was taught to love you no matter what but never to conform to your ways. That just means I dont dislike you the person I just dont agree what you stand for. Just like you dont dislike me as a person (I hope you don't) but neither do you agree with my beliefs.
Like I said before I went to a school with openly gay people and this abuse you speak of never happened where I was then and even where I am now.It was almost like they were excepted. Did I love their lifestyle? NO! But I still loved them. You say that it is not a choice. Well I believe it is. When you get feelings for a person it is your choice to act on them. Either you can go with the flow and approach that person or you can walk the other way. I was trying to think of an example and I finally came up with one. Have you ever been so angry with someone that you wanted to kill them? You know that killing them is wrong and you will end up in prison but the feeling is still there. You think it over and you decide against it. Because it is wrong. You made a choice to choose the right path. That is what I mean about homosexuality. When I say it is a choice I mean you can either be with another woman or can be with a man.
Yeah I know that SOME parents threaten to put their children out for being gay. Yes I understand that some people have died because they are gay. I see gays everywhere like the mall, movies and restaurants and no one said or did anything harmful to them. Now maybe where I live they just learned not to pay it any attention. Which I find that hard to believe considering I live in Alabama. The abuse and negativity is not happening as OFTEN as it use to. You cant expect the entire world to agree with your lifestyle. No matter how much I wish everyone on this blog agreed with me I know most of you won't and guess what thats okay. But seriously if being gays preordained then being a murder, rapist and thief is preordained too. Nope the murderer didnt choose to kill those people when he was born it was put on him. The rapist didn't choose to touch that little girl when he was born it was put on him. Do you get what I am saying? We all make choices some good some bad. Just like they could have decided not to rob that bank or kill. You can choose your path.
If and when you go to college you are going to choose a major. You may have been born with the talent of singing or whatever but you wasn't born with the desire for it. That desire grew on you. The more and more you pay attention to it and feed into it the stronger the feeling becomes.I dont dislike you nor do I want to hurt you. That is not what I am about. I just hope you take my comments as serious as I take yours. I also apologize for any Christian person you may have met that made you feel like you were beneath them. Its not fair for us to judge you just like it is unfair for us to get judged and if you feel as if I am hurting you in any way please let me know! I leave the judging to God. I just feel like I have the right to give my opinion and beliefs the same way you do. Thankyou for letting me share my beliefs with you because you don't have to.
Much Love
I think you are missing the point. You speak of actions, others are speaking of feelings.
You cannot control whether or not you are attracted to someone. Try it... it doesn't work. Likewise, you cannot control whether or not you fall in love with someone, or feel desire for them, or any of these other things. That is what makes a person gay or straight. Not whether or not they marry a person of the opposite sex... whether or not they are ATTRACTED to and LOVE members of the opposite/same sex.
Of course, society saying 'it's wrong' or 'it's sinful' to love or feel attraction towards a certain person is like saying it's wrong or sinful to be deaf. Society has tried to make these people act more like 'the hearings', but over time, they have come to celebrate who they are. GBLT are just in that transition stage now.
~C
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...I JUST REPLIED TO THAT YOU BEAT ME AGAIN. D:
Except, in this particular case my reply was BETTER. So there.
You keep missing my point. I am starting to feel as if maybe I should just back off and let you only have one way of looking at things. because you all want me to understand how YOU feel and be sympathetic to YOUR feelings but whenever I comment I get knocked down for my beliefs or having an OPINION! Its not fair because you want me to understand how you feel but you can care less about how I feel.I have never been gay I dont know how hard it may be to try to be normal. Yes like I said before SOME gays are bullied. In high school there was so many gays and people rarely acted differently towards them. I payed attention.The gay girls still had both male and female friends including myself. I mean I aint club with them but I didnt throw them to the side when I found out they were gay. Maybe the world you live in is really harsh. You were right about one thing in my opinion you cant help how you feel towards someone but its still up to you on what you do about it.
Now I have seen gay girls and guys get into fights because when the straight person tells them they arent gay the gay person wont back off. They start saying things that make the straight person mad and then when they fight and the gay person gets hurt you all call out foul. No its not foul they should have left them alone after they told them they werent interested.
Stop making it like all gays are ostracized because not all are. Some parents are so accepting of it and some may not accept it but they still are there for their child. Some freinds dont change either. Yes I know in other countries they do kill and no its no fair because My God and most of their God say "He who is without sin cast the first stone." So dont worry these people who are killing gays will get theirs. Not all male hairdressers are gay. My hair salon I go to got three and only one is gay. So no we dont all expect you to do jobs like that. See everytime I comment I say SOME but I realized everytime you comment you are putting all of us in one category. Some of us like myself are trying to hear you out and be there for you but some of you wont let us. Because you prejudge us (Christians) just like you think all of us prejudge you!! I dont know your heart just like you dont know mine but I wish the best for all of the GLBT on this page.
Much Love
That was mine, so let me clarify. I was in no way saying that all hairdressers are gay. My point was that those are examples of roles people have become accustomed to seeing GLBT people play. Tons of homophobes are very comfortable having a gay hairdresser or seeing a gay fashion designer on TV, because those stereotypical roles fit their idea of us. My point was that is not acceptance, that is simply categorizing.
Also, that second to last statement was not referring to you. I'm not calling you a homophobe, and I do, in fact, appreciate your efforts to understand the perspectives presented to you here. It must be difficult to step into a conversation in which you are the minority opinion. It must feel kind of like our lives feel, like you are always under attack.
That said, I don't think anyone here is trying to tear you down. I think they are trying to share a perspective with you that is foreign to you. It can be difficult to hear and accept that the world is not always as you perceive it. If you are sensing any animosity, I would suggest that it is perhaps a result of our having to defend ourselves against years of abuse at the hands of Christians. Again, this is not saying you were being abusive. I'm just saying that many of us have been horribly abused by Christians in our pasts, and that all of those Christians claimed to be looking out for our best interests. This makes us defensive whenever someone breaks out the Christianity as proof of our immorality. (Nevermind the fact that many of us are Christians ourselves, and have very different understandings of the Bible).
I hope you can see a little bit of our point of view here. The majority cannot speak for the minority's experience. They have no authority to do so and no understanding of the reality of our existence. It is true of any majority/minority relationship.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I know so many of you have been abused but I coming from my perspective where I never saw any of that. Do you get my drift? Yeah it does feel like an attack but at the same time I just feel like no one is paying attention. I know many gay people and I am friends with them regardless.They know how I feel but at the same time I dont belittle them. I know there are so many mean and cruel Christians out there. I know that some can hurt you because even though I am not gay some have hurt me. I go to a church who yeah says it is wrong but they would also welcome you with open arms. Its not fair that they make you feel bad. When I say no one seems to pay attention I just mean that I keep apologizing for what has been done to you all but everyone seems to only see disagreeance instead of seeing that on some things I agree with you!
In college you meet alot of people and guess what I have lived with a lesbian before. I knew she didnt want me and neither did I assume that. I still partied at our apartment with her and her friends.We still were able to get along. So thats what I mean by not all of us are trying to hurt you some of us just want to understand.
I will say this if they were looking out for your best interest they would have prayed with you and told you how much they loved you and even though they dont agree they wouldnt have kicked you aside.They also wouldnt keep bringing the situation up because my friends dont have to deal with that when it comes down to me and my beliefs. I say it to them once and after that its over.
Much love
It seems other posters have already said nearly everything I wanted to say, but I would like to repeat and stress this point:
It's wonderful that you're accepting of gay people. And it's wonderful that people at your school seem to be, too. However, as I (and others) have pointed out, this is quite rare. I have NEVER heard of a school like yours, where gay people are accepted and not abused.... and I've worked as a peer counselor for GLBT youth for years, and talked at length to GLBT youth from all over the world and from every corner of the US. Also, you cannot possibly know if the gay people in your school really are discriminated against or not! Though there doesn't seem to be outright abuse of gay people at your school (from what you can tell, though... I doubt you could see everything that goes on, all the time), they could still be discriminated and otracized in more subtle, quiet ways that you wouldn't see. Also, even if your school somehow IS that perfect, how do you know how they're treated at home?
Again... I've talked to GLBT youth for years, I can't even put an approximate number to them, could be anywhere from two hundred to two thousand... and I have never, EVER met one (nor an adult who identifies as GLBT, either) who was not discriminated against and abused to the point where it seriously affected their life and well-being.
Dude, I'm not gay, despite what some people on this site will claim. I am very much a woman, and very much in love with my boyfriend. Why do you automatically assume that because I agree with the lesbians and gay men on this site that I must be gay myself? Futhermore, I used to be Christian, and the vast majority of my friends are Christian.
I'm fully aware that not all gays are ostracized, but MANY are, and LARGELY because Christianity and Islam and Judaism reject it. Yes, there are some churches and other places of worship that do accept it, and I'm thrilled about that. My examples were NOT in other countries. They were people here in AMERICA killing gays. You cannot say that people are accepting when there is still HUGE amounts of discrimination against that group of people. It's like saying blacks were accepted after slavery was abolished, because the 14th (?) amendment made them equal, but then you look at what was happening in society before the civil rights movement, and it clearly wasn't the case. It's like saying deaf people were universally accepted into American culture when they were forced to learn how to speak and lipread up until the mid-1970's, and only then did they start earning a place in culture themselves. And yet, you'll still have people dying to get cochlear implants for their children, because they don't want to have to deal with a deaf child.
And I said nothing about hairdressers. I say nothing about theater people. I don't claim that all men in fashion are gay. Some just have amazing talent and style sense.
~C
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"Now I have seen gay girls and guys get into fights because when the straight person tells them they arent gay the gay person wont back off."
And I know straight people who won't back off when people they're attracted to aren't, for what ever reason, interested.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I know that straight people do to. I made my point which is when that happens Some gay people call foul.
It happens with everybody. No one denies it. It's a non point. It's like saying (if this was a race issue for example) that I've seen some Asian people who are assholes. Great. I'm sure there are many Asian people who are assholes, but since it isn't something particularly unique to the race, it's a pointless observation.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
I think you're misunderstanding what homosexuality is. Homosexuality is NOT having sex with the same gender. It's being attracted to/falling in love with the same gender. Yes, I can choose to date a man or a woman... but I cannot choose if I will be attracted to one or the other, it just happens. And it's always women. So I have a choice: I can choose to lie to a man and tell him I love him and force myself to act like I enjoy being with him and live my entire life a lie, all my life never be in love. Or I can find love and build a family with another woman.
If gay people were really treated well at your school (which I seriously doubt. Would they tell you if they were secretly being bullied? Did you watch them all the time? Did you know how they were treated at home?), your school is the exception. Go look up some statistics on gay and lesbian youth. The majority are bullied. The majority are discriminated against, even by their own family. Many are depressed because of the abuse they suffer. Many are thrown out of their homes, or receive threats that they'll be thrown out. In most countries in the world, being gay is considered a terrible thing, and in many, many places, you can legally be murdered, even tortured to death, for being gay or lesbian. It is NOT the norm for GLBT people to be treated well.
I'm guessing you meant "accepted" here. If that is indeed what you meant, then I respond that "almost like" acceptance is not enough, not equal, not fair. It's "almost like" separate but equal and the Jim Crow laws.
If you meant what you said, that it is almost like they were excepted, then I say, yes, it is EXACTLY like we are excepted. Every day. Everyone is entitled to get married, EXCEPT gays and lesbians. Everyone has the right to be safe in their schools, EXCEPT gays and lesbians, and especially EXCEPT the transgendered. We are excepted from many of the rights heterosexuals have on a daily basis.
We are accepted only on a very limited basis, as hairdressers, fashion designers, P.E. teachers (and even there we take a bunch of flack), and either comic foils or tragic characters who always die at the end of the movie.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Stories like that ALWAYS make me cry, because every time I read a story about discrimination, car accidents, and all the other tragedies we have no control over, I think that could be me.
Anyway, very well written.
Ah...I would give you a great big hug for this blog...but...Computers kinda get in the way of such things. lol
I like gays. They are kinda like hippies, always at peace and never want harm. Gays are always fun because their so nice, when lesbians are hot it bothers me though haha. But i watched a movie called "Bible Camp". It pissed me off. These religious people would protest gays and call them names and all that. You dont see gay people protesting or degrading straights. All people should clutch fists together and hold hands once and awhile.
Yeah, you only get upset about hot lesbians because you're jealous. Lol.
It seems to me that Bible Camp shows a lot of what really does happen in the real world--high school especially.
The only straight people I have problems with are the ones with major issues (racists, sexists, homophobes, etc.).
And even with those close-minded people, the key to changing them is to realize that they aren't (usually) bad people or deliberately malicious, they're just ignorant, and if you gently educate them in a non-aggressive, friendly way, they will likely change their discriminatory/hateful POV.
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Please see my recent blog post, "Genocide and Student Activism": http://www.progressiveu.org/041447-genocide-and-student-activism
I don't know what world you're living in , because "gentle education" DOES NOT WORK on Bible Belt hicks.
Nor, sadly, does beating them over the head with their own bibles. Gentle and FIRM education (starting as young as possible and beginning at first by not contradicting their major beliefs) is more effective though.
The only way to change the BIble Belt Bible Beaters is for their parents and their churches to suddenly decide to read the ENTIRE Bible and teach love, rather than hate. Let's face it, that's not going to happen anytime soon.
And, yeah, I'm speaking from experience here. I have a few Christian friends, and we talk about religion all the time. They don't try to change me, but we give each other things to think about. Then, along comes Billy Bob Baptist with the message that my friends are going to Hell because they are tolerant. Billy Bob Baptist won't listen to his momma or his daddy, but Preacher Man says "Burn in Hell," and so does Billy Bob.
Get the picture? Because this is what I see and hear every day. I TRY to have civil conversations with these people, but they shut their ears and minds as soon as they find out that I'm not a Christian.
Sorry to hear you've had such bad experiences, but even extremely conservative religious people are still just people who are capable of changing their minds on any number of things and probably have many times in their life. The key is to do it extremely slowly. For instance, if I can convince a radical Christian that the bible only forbids gay anal sex.... that might not FEEL like a huge step forward (or backwards) for him/her, but it means I basically got my chisel into the crack. :p
The only people with that power around here are the ones who believe exactly what the Bible Beaters believe, so it's pretty much impossible for that sort of progress with them in my area. Even trying to change them slowly won't work when they close their minds to you because you aren't a carbon copy of their beliefs.
Though of course not ALL gays are like that, it does seem like many gay people are more peacful than straight people. Perhaps it's due to being more in touch with both their feminine and masculine sides, and also knowing what it's like to be abused and degraded?
:idk: you story is slightly inspirational, i know that sounds odd but i mean. i am straight but i have several very close fried in positions like yours. it upsets me tto see how cruel the world can be based on who they choose to care about, i just dopnt think its right. at least you can help others who need you, i think thats kind of amazing. i wish you and the people you help the best and hope maybe things will be different.
Very intriguing essay. I love personal essays. :)
It's like your readers can picture themselves being in your shoes, but it's almost impossible to imagine such extreme discriminations living in a rigorously conservative society.
When I read about Seph, the likelihood of his family sitting shiva for him, and other GLBT members' castigation reminded me of this book entitled "The Color of Water" by James McBride. It's not on the subject of sexual orientation, but it does include the widespread discrimination of minorities in America in the early 20th century. The book is a compilation James' account as well as his mother's. His mother, Ruth, is a Jewish woman who had a sexually abusive father, a polio-stricken mother, a brother who died during World War II and a younger sister who needed her to keep the family together. In the beginning of the book, her family sat shiva for her because she ran off to marry a African-American minister.
Ahaha...sorry. That kinda spoiled the story, but it's quite an interesting book to read. Her personal story evokes a similar appeal for empathy. Thought I should note that. :)
Anyway, I'd love to read more about this. After reading your comments, I'd still be interested to read a Part 2 even if it's not as personal. I bet the research for the psychological effects on these youth will be just as intriguing. :)
Also, kudos to your essay's promotion to the front page. :D
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". . . it is error upon error, clout upon clout, and our best virtue has for its occasion a superfluous and evitable wretchedness. Our life is frittered away by detail."
-from "Walden" by Henry Thoreau
Thanks :) I think my grandparents have that book, it sounds fascinating!
I was lucky enough to grow up in a church that did not believe that being gay was a sin. I think my parents might have started going there because they knew I was going to be gay. Many of the people at my church had previously been members of churches that did believe that being gay is a sin. Now, these were some of the most Christian-acting people I have ever had the privilege to meet, with no hatred in their heart. One woman was married to a pastor for many years before she finally admitted to herself-- and him-- that she was gay. Now, I do not think she did this to be sinful and selfish, and I think that her knowledge of what the bible says was pretty comprehensive. She said she prayed every night that she would change-- for fifty years! She says she wasn't happy until she was fifty. Another girl, who was 14, had been disowned by her family and was living on different peoples' couches. She had been sent to one of those conversion programs, which had been not only ineffective, but greatly damaging to her developing sense of self-hood.
I have studied the bible, too. But in order to be the best and strongest person I can be, I have to live my life. You end making up these elaborate lies to the people you love when you can't be openly gay. Regardless of whether or not it is a choice (I don't think it is, and there used to be a time when I wished with every fiber of my being that it was a choice), being gay takes a lot of courage. I think it takes a lot of integrity for people to be honest with themselves and the people in their lives who may never fully accept them.
Great comment. :)
I really enjoyed reading this. Your writing is amazing. Im 17 years old and am Bisexual. And even at my age i still can not tell my parents or even my brothers but i seem to trust many of my friends. I feel as though i would be shunned for telling my family such a thing but now i understand the worst of it. I have a lesbian friend who has a lesbian mother so it was much easier for her. All of my gay and lesbian friends have had no problem with telling their friends and family of what they are and I have tried so many times to tell my family. I now see what hardships there are for the GLBT group.