I have noticed that many people are misonformed about the Catholic faith's honor of Mary. Some other Christian denominations think we worship her, like we worship Jesus. That is not the case. Jesus is our one and only God, and yes, we worship Him. As for Mary, we believe that she is a VERY important person. We honor her. She is absolutely amazing. She has given me so many graces.
Our Blessed Mother is one of my reasons why I'm so proud to be a Catholic. We acknowledge Mary so fully, unlike many other Christian religions. Why pray to and honor Mary? She is the only human being who ever lived without sin. Jeses never sinned. Likewise, never did the Virgin Mary. Also, God chose her to be the mother of His son. What a huge affirmation of Mary. He chose Mary to deliver the Lord, Jesus Christ. So how can any Christian not honor her?
Mary is a great intercession for our prayers. When God wanted to put Jesus on earth, He put Him here through Mary. Likewise, when we pray, prayers to Mary can make it to Jesus. Yet, He hears all of our prayers anyway, but she has great intercession. Here's an analogy I heard from a nun: There's a king who takes apples as taxes from the citizens in his land. A poor man comes with just one apple since that's all he can afford. So the queen takes the apple to serve it for the king. Before she passes it onto the kind she cuts it up and finds a worm in the apple. She then discards the worm and gives the clean apple to the king. This is the same type of connection between Mary and Jesus. When we pray to Mary, she cleans up our prayers, and makes them perfect, before she sends them on to Jesus.
On March 8, 1989 Mary said to a visionary, "Loving me doesn't detract from loving My Son, it adds to the beauty of your soul."
There is a book called All Through Mary which is a compilation of things that the Blessed Mother said to a visionary throughout 1989. This is the only book that Mary has ever acknowledged herself. Regarding the book, Mary has said, "I promise to take at the hour of death with My Angels that soul who, with love and devotion, reads this diary and honors my image and scapular and especially takes into their heart my message of June 16th, 1989." "Pray for poor Sinners."
Another thing: the Miraculous Medal. This is Mary's medal. Those who wear it around their necks are protected by Mary herself. Also, her scapula. Those who wear it will get their last rites before they die, so that they can make it to Heaven. I am so proud to be a Catholic and have the opportunity to honor my blessed mother, Mary. I just hope more people can come to find and honor her.
We have so many beautiful prayers to Mary:
Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee
Hail Holy Queen: Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy. Our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us. And after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus. Oh clement, oh loving, oh sweet Virgin Mary, pray for us, oh holy mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Hail Mary: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou, among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen.
Another one of Mary's gifts: The Rosary. We Catholics are so fortunate to pray the rosary. So much can be accomplished through it. The Rosary is such a magnificent prayer to our mother. And with it, all things are possible.
I know that Mary hears me. With the book I mentioned before, you simply say a prayer to Mary, open the book, and read her message for you. And it is dead on every time. This morning I was upset about family problems and whatnot, so I opened the book and it said, "All will be well," along with a paragraph which further calmed me. Just now as I was typing this post I prayed to Mary to make sure that this post was okay to be typing and that I did her justice with it. When I opened the book, it said, "...Only throught the Rosary will you make me happy and keep Satan from the door of your heart. I am always thinking of new ways to show you that My love is real and that I do let you hear and write down My messages of mercy..."
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Of course those darn other Christian denominations like to stick it out and keep insisting that the Bible doesn't mention anything about having to honor Mary whatsoever.
They mean, just like the Bible doesn't mention anything about the Holy Trinity.
Let me add in my two cents here just real fast.
I think it's beautiful that you have such a firm faith in someone who was obviously very much beloved of God. Cudos.
I have also never oppressed Catholics or said degrading things to them or the Catholic faith, or at least I have tried not to. Though I will admit, in defending my own I may have broken that rule. If I ever have, may I be forgiven.
I HAVE however been called a "pagan," a "heathen," been laughed at for my denomination and mocked because of the structure of my church, and have been told repeatedly that my soul will taste nought but the eternal burning of Satan's flames because I call it a "service" instead of a "mass" and because my church is run by a presbytery and not the Pope.
See, right across from my school was a HUGE catholic congregation and the only Presbyterian church was on the other side of town--that and the Catholics were usually the only ones who cared about religion anyway. The Protestants were mostly agnostic at best. Therefore I was made, perhaps not on purpose, to feel like an outsider because nearly ALL of my friends and classmates were Catholics. Therefore, I got pretty used to having to defend my denomination and it honestly surprised me to hear the stories of Catholics elsewhere who had the same experience reversed.
I say this not to insence, but only to remind Catholics that you are not the only denomination being oppressed or mocked by the others. In fact, members of your Church are in fact guilty of these very crimes. I'm Presbyterian, which is a mainstream denomination as far as I know, and just as legitimate as the other denominations--Catholicism included of course.
That's true. Many Catholics don't follow Jesus' example. Instead, they bash other religions, just as other religions sometimes bash Catholics. The Christian faith need to be more unified...we shouldn't all always be fighting against each other.
Be more unified? It's just impossible. All of the denominations have slightly different beliefs, and since it's a matter of going to Hell or Heaven (for eternity), no one is willing to compromise their beliefs. We'll never get along with each other.
I know, but I wish it didn't have to be that way. That isn't God's will. He wants the Christians to unite and worship Him as one. Instead, people keep forming their own sects with tiny changes.
I believe in her.
When I took world religions class, I found out about a theory that the "worship" of Mother Mary continues the ancient tradition of the [worshipping the] sacred feminine. Part of the theory is that the Catholic Church introduced her in order to revitalize Catholicism and draw more people into it or retain them.
But that does not explain the miracles or the sightings of her around the world. Interestingly, wherever she appears, she is clothed in the native costumes of that area.
Of course she is clothed in the native costume of the area in which she appears, why shouldn't she? There are many who say that Mary is the Goddess in human form - a viewpoint which in some ways has merit, but which I am not altogether sure I believe.
nicely done
Don't listen to those groups. Same groups that hate homosexuals or not? People should stop putting their noses into other religions and bashing them. (Of course, unless the religions harm them in a way)
I believe that an individual can be catholic and a christian or not. I also believe that protestants can be christians or not. I work with some wonderful christian catholics.
There is wrong information about the virgin mary. She was a godly woman and heard God's voice. The information about Mary being sinless,is not correct teaching, it says in the Bible that there is only one who is blameless ( sinless). That one is Jesus. That is why he attoned for our sins, no one else was, is or ever will be good enough. Jesus says, " I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me."
I am not judging your salvation. I am pointing out that only the Jesus and the Holy Spirit can intercede for us to the Father.
Honoring someone like Mary is admirable. She was a very special woman that God hand picked, but that does not put her into the category of perfect. Only God is perfect and since Jesus is God the Son, he is perfect.
Here is something else to ponder if Mary was perfect then why did she not comprehend the reason Christ had to die and why did she not know he would be ressurected from the dead?
I would be interested to know where in the Bible, scripture and verse, it says the Mary was without sin?
We don't need anyone cleaning up our prayers, God knows our heart. We don't have to have things perfect to come before God.
If God has something to say to us he will do it through the Holy Spirit. Putting our eyes on Mary is tantamount to idol worship. Satan would love nothing more than to have us praying to someone, something other than Jesus. The Bible says that Satan can come as an Angel of light. He can take on the form of whatever will distract us from Christ.
Again I do not mean to judge your heart. That is only something God can do. I am not saying that your relationship with God is without merit. We are all deceived in some way or another and that is why God's Mercy triumphs over his judgment.
Just be careful.
"There is wrong information about the virgin mary. She was a godly woman and heard God's voice. The information about Mary being sinless,is not correct teaching, it says in the Bible that there is only one who is blameless ( sinless). That one is Jesus. That is why he attoned for our sins, no one else was, is or ever will be good enough. Jesus says, " I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me." "
-We Catholics believe that Mary, as well as Jesus, never sinned. Pope Pious IX proclaimed, "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almightly God and by the virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin." And that's what we believe.
"I am not judging your salvation. I am pointing out that only the Jesus and the Holy Spirit can intercede for us to the Father. "
-And the saints, angels, and Mary can intercede our prayers to Jesus Christ.
"Here is something else to ponder if Mary was perfect then why did she not comprehend the reason Christ had to die and why did she not know he would be ressurected from the dead?"
-Because she's just a human. She realized that Christ had to die, but it's obviously extremely difficult to watch your son get tortured and ultimately crucified.
We believe that she had no stain of sin. The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in CHrist with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless beofre him in love." By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
"If God has something to say to us he will do it through the Holy Spirit. Putting our eyes on Mary is tantamount to idol worship. "
-Our honor of Mary is not to be confused with worship. We do not worship her; we honor her. And with that honor, we can pray to her. Just like we pray to the saints. We do not worship them; we honor them. There's a huge difference.
I thought the blogs were written to spark conversations. If she doesn't want comments then why write the blogs. Sounds to me as though who are hating people. I don't hate homosexuals. I personally am not bashing any religion.
Actually, sometimes blogs were written simply to inform.
SORRY DARLING, BUT WE DON'T KNOW IF MARY NEVER SINNED. IF THAT IS SO, THEN SHE DIDN'T NEED JESUS SAVING GRACE, IN SPITE OF SCRIPTURE TELLING US NO ONE IS WORTHY, NO NOT ONE!!
THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION BASED ON THE MARIAN TRADITIONS OF MEDIAVAL THEOLOGIANS.
I'M CATHOLIC MYSELF BUT CONSIDER SUCH EXAGERATIONS NOT ONLY EMBARRASING TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN, BUT DANGEROUS AS WELL.
Meanwhile, you're an embrasment to, uh, human beings.
Mary was born without sin (original). You're right, she did not need Jesus's saving grace. God gave her grace upon her conception, hence, the Immaculate Conception.
You are absoultely right we need to unite on the one point that is essential for all believers in Christ. He came born of the virgin mary, was crucified for the sins of the world and then rose from the dead on the 3rd day. God will deal with us on errors of our ways and again God looks at the heart. He above all, know's everything that dwells within our heart.
I think that a great deal of Protestant anger and misunderstanding about Mary's role in the Catholic Church is due to the fact that, for many centuries, *some* Catholics (yes, even Popes) have taken their honor of Mary WAY too far, and ascribed to Mary honors that she, as a human being, does not deserve. However, to clear up some issues about REAL Catholic teaching concerning Mary, I think that there are many many points in common with our Protestant brothers and sisters, and in the ways that THEY appraoch the ideas of honoring people and of intercession in prayer.
1. Mary is a human being, not a divine being. It is official Catholic teaching that Mary was indeed in need of the "salvation" or "redemption" that was brought about by the death *and* resurrection of her Son, Jesus. Her own salvation depended upon it. However, Catholics believe, (as the Bible teaches), that God "knows" every human being from the moment of their conception: "I knew you from the womb, when I formed you" from the Psalms.
I think a big problem is that a lot of Protestants have this idea that, when God was ready to send Jesus into the world, he looked down one day "at random" and said: "Okay. Let's see who might be a decent mother. Hmmm. Her? Maybe. Or wait...she's a good candidate. Then again, this other one looks pretty worthy, too."
In this sense, I think a lot of our Protestant brothers and sisters think that God "picked" Mary on a whim, as if she were a petrie dish, or an incubator. But Scripture tells us that God does not operate that way. He knows the past, present, and future destiny of all human beings, and he has a plan for each one of them "from their conception." God gave Mary a ministry, basically. He knew Mary "from the womb" as well, and he *prepared* her for the unbelievable challenge of welcoming the Word, welcoming "Salvation" (Jesus) into the world through her consent.
Catholics believe that God (knowing all) knew that his Son would achieve human redemption through his cross and resurrection. One of the benefits of this redemption would be that humans might be free from the veil of sin, "Just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." Ephesians 1.4.
Catholics believe that Mary, like every other human Christian, was also chosen for her particular "ministry" from the foundation of the world. Mary's ministry was particularly special--not that she is any better than any other Christian, but ithat her welcoming of God's saving, New Covenant plan came first, before other Christians could have the privilege to welcome it into their hearts, just as she did.
God did not command Mary to say "Yes." God "invited" her, because God does not trifle with human free will. Moreover, God "invited" Mary and she said "yes" to his plan *despite* the fact that she could have been stoned for suspected adultery, lost her family and friends, become an outcast, etc. Even her engaged husband, Joseph, was (at first) determined to divorce her because of her pregnancy, which would have caused Mary to be shamed and ostracized by her own people. Mary knew all of these horrible risks when she responded to God's call: in 1st century Palestine, this was a matter of life or death for a Jewish woman and Mary certainly knew the laws of her people and culture.
Despite these potential dangers, Mary said "Yes," which is why the angel Gabriel did not leave her until she had given her consent by saying "I am the Lord's handmaid. Let it be!" How great must her faith in God have been, under such circumstances? But, Catholics do indeed believe that God "prepared" Mary for her ministry as the first dsiciple to say "yes" to the plan of salvation... by preparing her in a state of full "grace' and "favor" from the moment she was conceived in her own mother's womb. Catholics believe that God applied Jesus' saving grace to Mary in foreknowledge of the fact that her Son would die to redeem her...and the rest of humanity.
Are there Scriptureal hints about this? You bet. When the angel Gabriel came to Mary, he did not call her by her given name. Instead, he addressed her with a "new" name--one that described her status in the eyes of God. The Greek word from scripture is *kecharitomene* and it means "[One] Who has been and remains endued with grace." A more appropriate translation of this unique Greek "personal name" would be "Ever-Graced." Interestingly enough, the word *kecharitomene* occurs only one other time in all of New Testament scripture...in the very passage mentioned above, wherein Paul speaks of how Christians have been chosen "from the foundation of the world to be *holy and blameless* in his love (Ephesians 1.4). "He *destined* us...to the praise of his *glorious grace that he freely bestowed.*
Basically, Catholics believe that Mary was very specially prepared by God for her ministry as Mother/teacher/nurturer of the Incarnate God. In this way, they believe that Mary was "prepared in grace"--a grace totally dependent upon the saving acts of Jesus. Now, some may say that God could not have given Mary ANY of the benefits of salvation ahead of time. But from Scripture, we know that this is not true. For example, Jesus had not yet come to save the world and thus allow any human being to enjoy the benefit of dwelling in Paradise *in-the-flesh* (which is one of the benefits that can *only* come from Jesus' death and resurrection). Yet, we read in Scripture that both Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven in-the-body, while all others would have to await the Final resurrection. Obviously, God applied the benefits of Jesus' saving death and resurrection to them ahead of time. God can do this because, well, Scripture teaches us that God sees past, present, and future as *one*. He's outside 'time' and can see all ends, all things, all possibilities.
So, Catholics basically believe that Mary was likewise gifted and prepared for her *very* unique ministry by receiving certain benefits of Jesus' saving work ahead of time -- she was "Ever-Graced" (Luke 1.28) at a time when "grace" was not yet truly accomplished by Jesus's coming work of salvation. Personally, I don't think anyone should begrudge Mary for having an advance experience of Jesus' salvation, particularly since her act of faith made it possible for the living God to take-flesh and redeem the whole lot of us. Doesn't make Mary any "better" on paper than any other human, but it does make her *special* among saved Christians.
Also, I think some Protestants tend to forget that Mary was not used just as a temporary incubator and then thrown aside. Jesus wasn't born of Mary's flesh and then whisked away to heaven by God, only to return for the cross thirty-three years later. Mary gave human flesh to the Son of God, fed him, raised him, protected him, and taught him for thirty years, until the moment had come for Jesus to leave Nazareth and begin his ministry.
Personally, as a Catholic, I don't believe it is utterly *mandatory* for our Protestant brothers and sisters to go around believing in Mary's "sinlessness." I don't think that is one of the big issues of Faith. However, I would be really careful *not* to believe that God "prepared" Mary in a very special way for her very special ministry as the one who welcomed salvation into the world by her faithful "Yes." The woman was obviously holy and I think it's enough for Protestant Christians to recognize *that* bit of common sense... without worrying about issues of "sinlessness" and what-not.
At the end of the day, our "Yes" to God results in allowing us to give birth to Jesus in our "hearts." Mary's "yes" allowed her to give birth to Jesus in her "heart" *and* in the flesh...and it's the flesh that redeemed us. I think it's important for all Christians to simply look at Mary as a believing, Christian woman, but as the obvious "first among equals," so to speak.
As far as saying things to praise Mary's faith or to honor Mary, the Scriptures pave the way. Gabriel saw her and exclaimed "Rejoice, Ever-Graced! The Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women!" (Luke 1.28-50). Then, Mary's cousin, Elisabeth, praised Mary (as attested in Scripture), and she wasn't willy-nilly about it. She cried out in a "loud voice" and said: "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb! Who am I, that the Mother of my Lord comes to visit me? The moment I heard your voice, the baby in my womb kicked with joy. Blessed are you for believing that God's word would be fulfilled in you!"
I think the key here is that Scripture tells us that Elisabeth did not speak these words from her own understanding. Scripture says that Elisabeth was "filled with the Holy Spirit." So, it was God Himself using these words of reverence to Mary. God was giving Mary props here. Elisabeth humbled herself before the "Mother of her Lord" and if a holy woman like Elisabeth feels the need to humble herself a bit before Mary, then I'm not going to feel relcutant to humble myself before this special woman. We all feel humble around certain people. We all feel respectful of certain people--give them special reverence. Doesn't mean we think they created the heavens and the earth.
Most of all, Mary herself (after being praised by the angel and Elisabeth) prophesied that "all generations shall call me blessed." (Luke 1.48). She didn't say all generations would "consider me blessed" or "think me blessed"...she said they would "call me blessed," just as Gabriel and Elisabeth had done.
Many scholars feel that Luke wrote this scene with the scene of David's meeting w/the "ark of the covenant" in mind. In the Old Testament, before the time of true salvation, the ark (made by human hands) was said to 'carry' the presence of God within for the people of Israel. The Ark was revered and considered utterly holy. In the New Testament time, Mary's heart, soul, and womb (not made by human hands) carried the living, breathing, incarnated God.
Elisabeth: "Who am I, that the mother of my Lord should visit me?...and Mary remained in the house of Zechariah and Elisabeth for three months." (Luke 1.43;56)
David: "Who am I, that the ark of the Lord should visit me?...and the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months." (II Samuel 6.9;11)
I think the Biblically honored "Mother of My Lord" trumps any man-made "ark"...and the ark got some serious respect, so...
As for prayers, I think it's really misleading when Catholics speak of "praying" to Mary. Catholics don't pray *to* Mary. They ask her to pray *with* . I don't believe that bit about Mary needing to "clean-up" our prayers. Our prayers are what they are--imperfect and okay to be imperfect. We're human. God knows that. But the Bible is full of testimony about the power of one Christian person (especially a holy person) interceding for another.
I've heard some people say it's wrong to even ASK another human being to pray for us, because Jesus is the ONE mediator. Jesus is indeed the ONE mediator (there is no other!) but we are all saved *in* Jesus. Therefore, we can pray for one another because we are "little participants" in His *ONE* mediation. Same applies to Mary. She is just another Christian (albeit a very special and holy Christian) who strengthens our bonds of fellowship by praying along with us.
For those who say: "The dead don't count!" I would say that Jesus Himself would disagree. He made it quite clear that God is "God of the Living, not of the Dead," and then he referred to several so-called "dead" to make his point.
For those who say: "The dead don't know what's going on down here!" I would say that Scripture disagrees. When Jesus was Transfigured on Mount Tabor, the so-called "dead" Moses and Elijah appeared at his side and proceeded to have a chat with him about what was going on in his ministry and what would happen when he entered Jerusalem! Apparently, those two "dead-heads" were in-the-know about earthly events and matters.
The visions from the book of Revelation noted how the "elders" in heaven "offer up" the prayers of earthly believers like incense. In another passage, the souls of the martyrs (also in heaven) beseech God to do something about the persecutions on earth, so *they* were apparently aware of what was going on in the earthly sphere. To my mind, if Scripture even implies it, or has precedent for it, then we can't be too narrow in ruling out the dimensions of our faith. Scriptural books were indeed compiled on *purpose* for the benefit of all, but it was not compiled for *all* purposes. Holy Scripture doesn't pretend to cover every issue that Christians would ever face, much less every event even in the life of Jesus (see John 21.25). But that's the whole "sola scriptura" thing that catholics and protestants have been barking and bickering about for years on end.
Bottom line: Catholics believe that death cannot separate brothers and sisters in Christ, now that salvation has been achieved. In the same fashion, someone way across the world can intercede for you and you may indeed be strengthened. You can't see that far-away person, and you may not even *know* they are praying for you, but in the ONE mediator-ship of Jesus, our prayers can always benefit each other...strengthen the bonds of God's family on earth, or in heaven. Being in heaven, actually, makes our departed christian brothers and sisters all the more tied to us, in Jesus, because they aren't bound by things like 'time," "space," or "distance" like we are. They are a "cloud of witnesses" urging us onward to the finish-line, as Scripture attests: Hebrews 12.1.
For Catholics, Mary is a spiritual "mother" in the fellowship of believers. They believe that Mary was given to us all as a "mother" (in the order of grace) when Jesus was dying on the cross (John 19.25-27). Christians who say that Jesus was only making "final arrangements" for his mother are possibly doing him a disservice. That would mean that Jesus didn't believe in his own resurrection--didn't believe that he would be alive again in three days to handle potential last-minute family affairs. Uh-uh. Moreover, Mary did not lack for relatives in her clan. Indeed, Jesus didn't give Mary away as a "mother" first. He spoke first to *her* and gave her the "Beloved Disciple" as a son. The disciple was placed in *her* care first. Only then was the disciple given to Mary--"Behold! Your mother!"
*Some* Bible translations really make a trainwreck of the words of Jesus to Mary at Cana, where he worked his first miracle at her behest. In this case, Jesus used a Hebrew idiomatic expression that could have very flexible meaning. The actual Greek translation is "What to me and you?" and its meaning depends upon the context of the scene or event. In Hebrew, it *could* mean "Your problem is not mine!" Or, it can just as much mean: "That's not *our* problem." When Mary came to Jesus at Cana after the wine ran out, she wasn't talking about her own needs. She made a simple observation about "THEY.* She said *THEY* have no wine, not "*I* have no wine" or "*We* have no wine." The woman made a kindly observation about a third-party (the wedding guests).
Jesus said: "What is *THAT* to us? My hour hasn't come." They were playing for the same team, of course. Jesus' "hour" was, in John's Gospel, the ideal or ultimate moment when his "glory" would be revealed upon the cross and in resurrection. When he would be "lifted up." At Cana, Jesus and Mary were on the same side, but Jesus didn't think he or his mom should worry about a third-party's local wine problem (after all...once his hour REALLY came, there would be "new wine" of the most powerful kind for all humanity).
But, Mary persisted in faith and said to the servants: "Do whatever he tells you." Apparently, Mary wanted Jesus to give a little "preview" of his "hour." Jesus rewarded his mom's faith by working a very public "sign" that paid dividends when his disciples began to "believe in him." (John 2.11). Then, he high-tailed it to Capernaum for a little get-away with his mom (John 2.12).
Contrast this with John 7:1-11, where the "brothers" of Jesus don't make a simple, caring observation, like Mary. They taunt him, and tell him he should be working miracles left-and-right if he wants to be noticed. Jesus *doesn't* honor their poor faith in public, like he did for faithful Mary. Instead, he went about his actions "in secret."
As far as Mary's death and "assumption," I don't think Protestants need to walk around believing in that. It's true that recent scholarship has revealed that the very early Christians believed something utterly unique happened to Mary's body after her death, but her end has passed out of all knowledge. It was a big mystery to the early christians, and remains a mystery to this day. I think God probably wanted it that way. Keep it a mystery. This being said, both catholics and protestants believe that God will come in a "rapture" or "the parousia" and waft everyday christians up to heaven in their bodies.
Still, given that Mary was the first one to say (ahead of time) a specific "YES!" to Jesus and welcomed the Living God into her heart, soul, mind, body, AND flesh (so that the rest of us could one day have the privilege of welcoming Jesus), I would be very reluctant to begrudge her the same privilege (ahead of time) of being "wafted-up"--a privilege that all other Christians (you and me) are promised. Especially since pre-salvation-in-Jesus boys like Enoch and Elijah (and apparently Moses) were given the old bodily "heave-ho" into glory "ahead of schedule." There's certainly Biblical precedent for the bodily "taking-up" of people who were especially "favored" by God. Scripture notes that Mary was anything if not "favored!"
Again, though, I think that it should be a matter of personal opinion for our protestant brothers and sisters. I think they have the right to keep their own personal thoughts about that particular matter. Some may believe it. Some may not. But I think it's important for protestants not to rule it out entirely. The Bible is not really one book...it's a collection of books. It didn't just drop, fully-formed, out of heaven one day. It took hundreds of years for Christians to decide which books made the "final cut" and the Bible does not contain every single event that happened in early Christianity...especially after the first Christians were sent fleeing into secrecy because of persecution.
Still, it preserves inspired testimony about the real WORD (Jesus). Jesus, after all, is the *only* WORD of God--the Word-made-flesh...not the word-make-book(John 1). There's also Revelation 12.5, where we see a "woman clothed with the sun" who is obviously *in glory, in heaven.* In verse 5 of Revelation 12, we read that this woman "gave birth to a son who would rule all nations with an iron rod...then her son was snatched up to heaven...and the woman was given a pair of wings by God...she was taken to a place where she is cared for..." We all know that this son is Jesus, and there was only one woman who gave birth to him--Mary. The vision could refer to the Church, OR to Israel, OR to Mary--or it could refer to all three in one example. But it's kind of difficult to get around verse five, which mentions the historical birth of Jesus from a "woman" in history. That's Mary and no other.
So, to wrap this up, I think it's important for Catholics to get a grip and have a better understanding of their own official doctrine and start understanding their Bibles a bit more. Catholics need to give Protestants a break, in my opinion. Catholics can learn a lot from our Protestant brothers and sisters about Scripture. Protestants should also put aside misunderstandings and start to see that many of the cherished beliefs about Mary (by Catholics) have very poignant basis in key parts of Holy Scripture that they usually tend to conveniently overlook.
Bottom line: if your local pastor deserves affection, deep respect, and if you ask him to pray for you, then I would say that the Lord's Mother (alive in Jesus!) deserves a bit of affection and respect, too. Did she create the heavens and the earth? Heck, no. Is she some divine being? No way. Does she deserve heartfelt Christian honor, admiration, and love, they way you might love your own mother? Sure she does.
I think in this time when recycled-Gnostic crap like the "Da Vinci Code" is attacking the very resurrection of our Jesus, it's time for Christians of all walks to pull together. Start finding our common ground and start cleaning up the excesses that occur in both Catholic and Protestant thought.
We can at least hope, can't we?
'Nuff said.
"I think a big problem is that a lot of Protestants have this idea that, when God was ready to send Jesus into the world, he looked down one day "at random" and said: "Okay. Let's see who might be a decent mother. Hmmm. Her? Maybe. Or wait...she's a good candidate. Then again, this other one looks pretty worthy, too.""
-Exactly. How can you think God would randomly pick someone to bear His Son? Mary had huge shoes to fill. And she was completely worthy of that responsibility.
Nice comment!
Thanks for the good and elaborate explanation.
Amen, let me just add this. As being raised Protestant we understood thru Scripture that the bible states that the only mediator between us and God the Father is the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 2 ;5-6 FOR THERE IS ONE GOD AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS, WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL MEN-THE TESTIMONY GIVEN IN ITS PROPER TIME. This is not just me or any Protestant denomination this is the Word of the Lord. God does not share his throne!. God chose many choice vessels throughout history, we can honor them and learn from their example but we are not to worship them at all. They are not our mediator....that is what the Bible says. God does not share his power or throne...he did not in the OT, did not in the NT and will not in the future. God is God..the fullness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form in Christ. Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, but he has always been with the Father from the beginning...." I Iam that I am before Abraham" REMEMBER Exodus 20... The mother of our Lord...the Mother of God is honored as the mortal that bore the Lord Jesus Christ. But no where in Scripture does it say to Pray to her, or she is to act like the mediator. If it did, it would contradict other scriptures that state that Christ is our mediator with the Father. Peace
So. This is one reason I hate the Protestants and their superiority complex. The purpose of this thread is to explain the misconception many Christians have about what the Catholics see in Mary. I'm tempted to call you names, but because I'm one considerate being, I'll have to hold my tongue.
Like I've said before. We don't worship her, we pray to her. And I know that Protestants don't believe in this, but like thesheep said, that's the whole point of this blog. To show exactly why Catholics believe what we do. She's amazing and she fills us all with special graces.
I'm the one who wrote the extra-long piece about Mary and the REAL Catholic position about her. I had hoped it would shed some diplomatic light, but it's important for us to realize that Bible "literalists" and "fundamentalists" can rarely (if ever) be educated properly, or even engage in proper discussion. "Literalism" is a massive brick-wall that keeps people in darkness. I appreciate the zeal of fundamentalists for knowing and being able to quote so many "verses," but they are like people who have built their houses upon sand. It's a twisted version of everything that the Scriptures were intended to be. The irony is that fundamentalists know so "much" Scripture without really knowing anything "about" Scripture. As I explained before, Mary is not "prayed to." Her intercession is sought in the same way that some Protestant fundies might ask that lame-brained Pat Robertson to pray for them. Jesus is indeed the ONE and ONLY mediator, but if he does not allow us to participate, to some extent, in that ONE mediator-ship, then it's a sin to ask any other "being" to pray for us at all! But Scripture records that Christians can indeed pray for each other because we all are participants in the one mediator-ship of Jesus. Mary is just the "first among equals" in that department. She is a mother. Not a goddess. One can seek her intercession the same way one could ask one's own mother to "gee...pray for me...will ya' Ma?" Plus, Catholics don't believe in a God of the Dead. They believe that God is God of the Living, as Jesus Himself taught and as the written Scriptural record attests. All believers are "alive" in Christ. If Protestant fundies believe that human death separates the fellowship of believers, then they are denying the resurrection of Jesus. Plain and simple. Moreover, the Scriptures would not record that human individuals in heaven offer up earthly prayers to God like incense (Revelation 5). It would not have recorded that Moses and Elijah (two supposed "dead" people) appeared alongside Jesus on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration and had a nice chat with Jesus about his earthly doings (obviously being aware--in heaven--about what was "up"). Jesus would not have said that human believers that die become "like angels in heaven"--which means (according to Scripture) that they present our prayers and petitions to God in union with the one Mediator--Jesus Himself. As for this twattle about God not "sharing his throne," that is a load of hoo-ey. Read the Gospels. Jesus himself noted that his closest disciples would sit upon "twelve thrones." They would all have a share in his glory. More to the point, it really blows my gasket because fundies think that God the Father, the Omnipotent, is some bearded old fart in the sky who sits on some idiotic throne, like a typical earthly king. God the Father is pure spirit, and doesn't get some big thrill out of jewels and thrones and golden crowns. Those are such WORLDLY things! In fact, for anyone with a brain, we note that God is not even "known" to us a tangible being except through Jesus and His Incarnation, in LARGE part because of the faithful cooperation, obedience, and flesh of Mary. The poster above is one of those bright bulbs who thinks that Mary was a "vessel" or a divine "Petrie Dish" that was used and cast aside. Well, God does not compel human souls, nor does God cast them aside in life--EVER. If God only wanted to "use" Mary's reproductive organs to "get Himself an earthly body," He would have forced himself upon her and "used her," then whisked Jesus away to some "Hogwarts School for Up-and-Coming Messiahs." NEWS FLASH: God didn't do that. God invited Mary to participate freely in the most astonishing event the universe has ever known--pure immaterial Divinity becomes "human," becomes "material." Visible. Mary said "yes!" because she was destined and prepared by God for the MINISTRY as Mother/Welcomer of the One Lord and his plan of human redemption. "Mere vessel" my foot. Jesus was subject to her and grew from her body ALONE, and was educated by her, and lived with her for thirty years before He even began his ministry, when the time was "right." Mary was not cast aside like some old, used-up hand-bag! What a stupid God that would be--but that is precisely the God of so many Christian fundamentalists. Better yet, this whole bunk about "My God does Not share His GLORY THRONE. Praise be!", is even more stupidity on top of stupidity. The Book of Hebrews rightly notes that Jesus is the ONE High Priest (same as mediator). There is no other. Yet, the same book notes that all of us--every believing man and woman--are part of his ONE priesthood. It's called the "priesthood of believers." So...how could ANY of us be "priests" if Jesus did not share his unique, ONE PRIESTHOOD with all of those who are redeemed in HIM? I swear, I lose patience with the willfull ignorance of Christian fundamentalists. They obsess about the "letter of the law" and know nothing about the "spirit of the law" ...and that kind of nonsense is given short-shrift in recorded Scripture. I'd hate to be in line behind a Protestant fundie at heaven's gate (if there actually is some sort of "line," as if that is really how it's going to happen, apart from human imagery in the Scriptures). I can just see Jesus saying: "Well, you certainly were able to quote a lot of Bible verses on earth, but memorization skills were never part of the criteria. You said "Lord! Lord!" alot, but you never knew who the heck I really was. Plus, you really dissed my mother, and she's a BIG part of the reason that you even had a chance to know my name in the first place! Sorry, pal. Elevator going DOWN." Fundies are afraid of the Catholic Church. Part of their fear is stupid...part of it is justified. The Catholic Church's institution has made a lot of dumb, shameful mistakes over the centuries, but it's a human organization that is trying to participate in the Divine life of God, of Our Lord. Yes, the catholic Church institution must repent of its many follies and stupidities, but the fact remains: it has lasted. It has remained alive, despite all of its own foolishness and attempts by outsiders...it still stands. And here I speak of the true "catholic" churches--not just Rome, but the 500 million eastern orthodox Catholics, and of the 200 million Anglican Catholics. These churches trace themselves back to the first moment of Pentecost in Jerusalem--an unbroken line. Yes, horrible blunders have been made throughout history, but, let's face it: one of Jesus' own disciples betrayed him with a kiss and the rest of them ran away like scared chickens, or outright denied him, in his moment of terror. If human beings can lose all of their sense and faith when they are actually hanging-out with the living God made flesh in "real time," when they can actually touch him, feel him, listen to him in person...don't be surprised that many, many human beings in centuries afterward have screwed-up when they don't even have the benefit of the earthly Jesus being in their midst. Finally, a last, sobering thought: Mary didn't run away from the cross, like all the disciples (except the "Beloved Disciple"). Mary stood her ground beneath that cross while her Son was tortured and killed before her eyes. She STOOD, when the rest had run away. And another thing: Scripture notes that only ONE person was actually "present" from the very moment Jesus took human flesh through his entire life, his first miracle, his Calvary, his resurrection, and the very moment that the 'church' was born in the Upper Room at Pentecost--MARY. Scripture records that Mary "treasured all of these things in her heart." MARY--Faithful human being. God's favored, ever-graced handmaid. Mother of the Living God and Savior, and Mother of all who believe in Him. Having a love and respect for Mary no more "takes away" from Jesus' glory than loving your own mother. Do you think Jesus gets "jealous" when you "love" your mama? Your wife? Your kids? Do you think He feels "neglected" when you have a deep respect and love for your pastor, as a member of the Christian family? Do you really think that Jesus is THAT freakin' VAIN???? Plus, you Protestant fundies ascribe WAY too many human attributes to God the Omnipotent Father. JESUS was the human incarnation of the Godhead. That's all you need...and Jesus reduced the entirety of Old Testament "law" down to one "bit": "Love God with all your heart. Treat others the way you would want to be treated." Mary is just a special part of the Christian "family." A human woman of great grace and unique status in God's plan for her own salvation and ours. I am proud to say that I love her simply as a mother, one human person to another. If that wonderful Mother of my Lord condescends to pray for me in my earthly struggle, I am a lucky person. She had her own earthly struggles, so I expect that she knows a thing or two. Now she has gone on to her heavenly reward as the first and most gentle Christian who helped "make" God REAL on earth. Plus, there's a big difference between having devotion and love for someone and "worshipping" someone. You may love your wife, husband, kids with all your soul. You may love them so much that you'd die for them. HUGE love! But does that mean that you "believe" that your wife, husband, kids (or best friend) 'created' the heavens and the earth? NO! Does loving someone very much automatically mean that you (intellectually) consider that person to be omnipotent, or "divine?" NO! There is a big intellectual component to "worshipping" and "loving" God in a way that separates that from the kind of "love" we have for other human persons. Any love for Mary is simply the same as loving another fellow human being, albeit loving someone who deserves a special amount of respect and honor. Not the same as "loving" or 'worshipping' the omnipotent God. Listen, fundies: I don't care whether you ask her to pray for you. I don't care whether you believe that God made her so full of grace that she was pure and spotless (despite the fact that Scripture notes that she was abundantly "graced"). I don't care whether you believe that God "raptured" her in advance, the way he "raptured" Enoch, Elijah, and Moses--those good old Jewish codgers. JUST SHOW THE WOMAN SOME RESPECT! For the good of your own souls. You Protestant fundies need to get your heads out of the Old Testament. Get your noses out of the book of Ezekiel. You people dance around Jesus' key teachings while licking the pages of Leviticus. Well, the proverbial "jig" is "up" on you folk. There's a good reason that there's an "OLD" Testament and a "NEW" Testament collection of scriptural writings. The latter supercedes the FORMER. By the way: the collection of Scriptural books (old and new testaments) that you tend to WORSHIP was compiled, ratified, and STAMPED by the authority of the "Catholic" Church. Stick *that* in your craw and roll it around a bit. Open up a non-partisan history book and read it. Here's another thing: there is only ONE "WORD" of God--Jesus. The Word-Made-Flesh. Read the first chapter of John's Gospel if you can pry yourselves away from Deuteronomy for a minute or two. JESUS *is* God's WORD. The Scriptures are the divinely inspired, HUMAN written testimony to *some* of His life and activities. Here's a tip: get a really good, scholarly book about the history of the Christian Church in its first five hundred years of existence--if you DARE. Think outside of your boxed minds, for a change. Scripture was not compiled in some sort of holy "vacuum." I swear, I don't like getting cross with Protestant fundies, because I *do* have immense respect for your devotion to Scripture, but...get a clue. When someone tries to teach you actual bits of history, LISTEN. Narrow minds are the devil's playground. Protestant fundies can behave in completely ignorant, ridiculous ways. I can say that because Catholics, too, can behave in ignorant, stupid ways. So deal. We all love Jesus. We all know that he is the ONE Incarnate God...the ONE mediator...the ONE High priest before the Father. Let's start finding some common ground and sense of RATIONALITY, or else the Da Vinci Code Gnostics will make us all bigger laughing-stocks than we already ARE! Rant finished. Ian
I apologize that the above post is not "paragraph" sensitive. I had the whole thing broken down in paragraphs, but when I posted the piece, I forgot to enter an e-mail address and the ensuing "prompt" caused the html to be re-formatted... and then it rendered the whole thing as one paragraph before I realized. Sorry.
I have been Catholic all of my life. Not once have I ever heard bashing of any kind in the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact, we are taught early on to respect other religions. We are also taught that because our beliefs are not quite the same, the beliefs of other religions are not wrong. I have been mocked and ridculed and even told by a person of the Baptist religion that I am going to hell because I am Catholic however; this person would never darken our doorstep to see what we are really all about. The Catholic religion is the most misunderstood of all religions and most likely the most bashed as you put it. We do follow Jesus' example......we pray for those who condemn us.