Despite people's beliefs anytime religion is debated people get into a heated debate. Its ends up in a shouting match, and if there are different religions that are at odds the discussion quickly evaporates into a
"My God is better than yours argument."
For this reason and others I try to stay away from any one organized religion because the ideas will always be biased to some degree because a human being communicates the "Message of God" and no matter what will add commentary and interpretations on what something means. This is why I take a more personal approach to spirituality and faith. To me you cannot mass produce religion and make one for everyone. Their will never be one religion that is right for everyone because man is inherently biased. By no means do I mean that organized religion has no value. On the contrary, their is immense value in the moral messages communicated in the various religions and belief systems of the world. To me it makes sense to not subscribe to just one system of beliefs. Thin of when you are writing an in depth research paper; you never use only one source of information because one source will basically never present all the information and ideas. I think the way to become more "enlightened" or able to reach your own sense of spirituality and come to your own conclusions is by not limiting yourself, but by accepting that most of the religions of the world have some important points that can people can learn from and become better people.
If anyone has read The Life of Pi by Yann Martel, the main character, Pi is a young boy who struggles with his questions of faith and becomes a Muslim, Christian and a Hindu. People pester Pi, and ask how can he have 3 religions. I think the truth is that this was a point about how their doesnt need to be a huge dischord between differing religion as there are going to be lessons and truths about life that can only be offered through certain religions. Lessons can be learned that will make people more tolerant of others by realizing that in many ways the differences in beliefs are not always enormous, and their is a comradery in all mankind. Everyone is here on this Earth together and eventually we must learn to accept the differences in others and find the beliefs we share.
The question of whether God exists or does not has been going on for ages. There isnt going to ever be a revelation where everyone agrees and thus this question does not matter as whether God exists or not is a personal matter. It is a matter which everyone should be able to make up their own minds about. Far too often the personal belief in God or not believing in God is used as a way to separate people and turn people against each other. This question, is personal and should be left for each individual person to decide.
My intent in writing this is to encourage acceptance of differing beliefs, not as a way to bash and criticize organized religions. Today it seems as though the opinions and beliefs of the world have become very polarized. No one (the majority of people) is willing to consider the differing perspectives and beliefs and do everything they can to not compromise. People should not focus so much on what makes us different, be it our religious beliefs, sexual orientation, gender, nationality, heritage, political party or anything else. Everyone has something different to bring to the table and their insights can lead to greater wisdom.
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It's interesting, but people are able to relate better when they talk about things that they don't like. It is for this reason that believing/not believing in God and gossiping about other people are such hot topics.
I'm not saying that you are any less right in your observation/assertion, but the idea that other people hating the same kind of people that you do can be comforting in a way.
Whisper on a scream doesn't change a thing. - Kenny Wayne Sheppard Band
I suppose its easier to just hate people because they have different beliefs than to act tolerant and get all the facts before you pass judgment. Perhaps I am being a little to idealistic.
This ^ makes sense to me. Sounds better than "We just love to hate people".
Common sense is as rare as genius. ~Emerson
richard dawkins
And?
My intent in writing this is to encourage acceptance of differing beliefs, not as a way to bash and criticize organized religions. Today it seems as though the opinions and beliefs of the world have become very polarized. No one (the majority of people) is willing to consider the differing perspectives and beliefs and do everything they can to not compromise.
It is good in theory, but it is hard - if not impossible - to accept other beliefs and still be a devout follower of a certain religion. Sometimes compromising is not as good as it sounds.
Thats the problem with religion though, is that it is so black and white.
I think the issue is that you may be attempting the impossible. The different religions contradict each other - for example, Christianity says we live once and are resurrected to live forever, either with God or in hell. The Buddhists I've talked to say that we are reincarnated until we reach enlightenment and choose not to be reincarnated again.
These two things cannot both be true at the same time. So trying to believe all religions at once is logically impossible. You cannot fully accept them all.
Not to say that all religions don't contain some truth. Just because a religion is wrong about one thing doesn't mean they are wrong about EVERYTHING. You need not fully reject any one necessarily.
Most religions I have investigated are against murder, rape, stealing. I think this is right, and all religions are right about this if they are against it.
"Their will never be one religion that is right for everyone because man is inherently biased."
What do you mean by 'right for everyone'? By saying it can't happen because people are biased makes me think you by 'right for everyone' you mean one that everyone can agree with, one that everyone is comfortable with.
I would want to believe in the religion that is actually right, in an absolute reality sense, even if I didn't like what some of it said, or it made me uncomfortable with myself in some areas. In fact, if the religion was actually right, that is when I have the potential to grow the most, when I have to face up to a change in my own opinion.
What then?
(Buddhism is more a way of life than a religion.)
So what if there is actually no "right" religion? What if there is no God? What if we just are, we just were, we just die, and then there is nothing...?
"A prime part of the history of our Constitution...is the story of the extension of constitutional rights and protections to people once ignored or excluded." ~US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
If there is no God of any sort and we are all just collections of chemicals that evolved from nothing (an interesting statement in itself) then I think:
Nothing matters. Whether you are happy in your life or suffer, doesn't matter. You die, and that's the end of you. Like some small test you maybe stressed over in Grade 2, it seemed to matter at the time but afterwards, it really doesn't. Whether you achieve some great act of statemanship, or have kids, or pass on some kind of legacy also doesn't matter, as you are passing something on to people who are also just universal accidents and whether they are happy or suffer before they die doesn't matter either.
Is this how life seems to you? It doesn't to me.
I suspect the post-modern position on religion, which I think says: "everyone chooses their religion that is right for them" is actually founded on the assumption that no religion is right - choose whatever you like because it actually doesn't matter. If you thought one of them was right, the idea of choosing something else makes little sense. Like if I know how to fix broken heart valves with heart surgery, I don't try to do it with knee surgery just because I like knee surgery. We don't go into an operating theatre saying to the surgeon - I don't mind where or how you trained, so long as you trained in the way that was 'right for you' !! :)
As to your Buddhism point, it depends what kind of Buddhism, and how you define religion. The Buddhists I've spoken to, and the books I'd read on Buddhism have 1) codified moral guidelines, 2) a statement of the 'ultimate reality' 3) some idea of what the 'point of life' is. To me, that's a religion. Your definition may vary.
Under my defintion there, materialistic evolution could be considered a religion. So be it, having seen some emotional 'scientific' debates on the topic, I think it is to some people.
I think either one religion is right and all the others are wrong, or all of them are wrong, and we've missed the 'truth' so far. The real question is, which one could be right? I think this calls for careful investigation, careful thought and comparison with as much of reality as we think we can perceive.
"Nothing matters. Whether you are happy in your life or suffer, doesn't matter. You die, and that's the end of you. Like some small test you maybe stressed over in Grade 2, it seemed to matter at the time but afterwards, it really doesn't. Whether you achieve some great act of statemanship, or have kids, or pass on some kind of legacy also doesn't matter, as you are passing something on to people who are also just universal accidents and whether they are happy or suffer before they die doesn't matter either."
Its interesting that you brought up all these points that I never stated. I never said nothing matters.
Religion is made by man. Man is not perfect. Religion will never be perfect, nor will it ever be completely true. It will always be biased. These biases work against what is "right" in religion. However, every religion has something to bring to the table. There are contradictions between religions, but there are also powerful messages of morality, kindness, caring for others etc. Ultimately whether God exists or not is up to you. I never said anything anti-God as you seem to think. For those that believe in God more power to them. For those that dont more power to them too. Its a personal belief and nobody has a right to tell them they are right or wrong in these personal beliefs.
Beliefs are personal, so shouldnt religion be personal too?
Its not as you stated, that all religions are wrong, but that all religions are wrong with significant pieces of truths within them all. Then again we dont really know what is true for everything. We can only discern bits and pieces of truth that we have experienced. I am not an omnipotent being with all the answers and neither is any other human alive. So we will never know... until you die, maybe.
"Its all very well to practice but it will never work in theory."
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/daimler
Firstly my apologies in getting back to you, since you bothered to read what I wrote
and even ask me some questions.
"Its interesting that you brought up all these points that I never stated.
I never said nothing matters."
I never said you said that :) You will see that I was answering a queston by
meburgos. I started my bit with '..then I think:' to show that the thought was mine.
"Religion is made by man. Man is not perfect. Religion will never be perfect,
nor will it ever be completely true. It will always be biased. These biases work
against what is "right" in religion."
If by religion you mean the human-organised and run aspects of a faith, then I agree with you.
People are good at screwing things up :)
"Its a personal belief and nobody has a right to tell them they are right
or wrong in these personal beliefs."
I'm not sure about this one...why not? If I believe my coffee cup is made of paper and
you believe it is made of ceramic, are you saying you do not have the right to tell me you
think I am wrong? How about think it - do you have the right to think I am wrong?
Personally, I think you are able to tell me I am wrong. I don't think you should cut my head
off if I disagree with you, however. I'm sure we agree on that :).
"Beliefs are personal, so shouldnt religion be personal too?"
I think religion is personal but a personal view can still be varying shades of right or wrong,
measured against reality....like the coffee cup example, it's made of SOMETHING, no matter
what we think it might be.
I suspect what you may mean is there seems to you to be no way to test what reality is for
the question of religion?
"I am not an omnipotent being with all the answers and neither is any other human alive. "
Yes I agree. We won't know all the answers. But some we can work out I think.
And why does life only matter if you are religious in some way. And yes,when I took World Religions, as a class, Buddhism is a way of life, and might seem "religious" but is actually not considered a "religion." You can be a buddhist and still be a Christian, or a Pagan, or a Catholic, or a whatever...
Furthermore, just because someone does not believe in religion, or even God, for that matter, doesn't mean that there isn't meaning to life. With or without religion, there is meaning to life, and a purpose to life. You don't live an average of 60-100 years without it mattering, regardless of your religious views. At least there is a meaning to my life, with or without religion. My children matter, my parents matter, my friends matter, the world around me matters, the environment matters, what happens to others matters, etc.
Even people in Grade 2, have views about what does and doesn't matter beyond a test. When my son was 4 or so he knew what gravity was and understood it...how is that 2nd graders are reduced to such simplicity?
Life is life, regardless of whether you are religious or not, life exists and is. If you are stranded on an island, like in the movie Castaway, would you not find a purpose to your existence beyond "religion"--you wouldn't be able to attend church, etc, nor would you be passing anything down to anyone, but you'd fight for your existence, wouldn't you? I know I would. Hell, I might even have my own Wilson.
My existence is not based on someone else's view of what is or isn't important, nor is it based on what "legacy" I pass to my children (hopefully they will make their own legacy, the best that I can do as a parent is raise them to be honest, compassionate, knowledgable, respectful, openminded, appreciative, intelligent, courageous, caring, and independent adults--who think for themselves).
Are we not a collection of energy, atoms, matter, and as you said, "chemicals"? From what I understood in biology, and physical science, we are a collection of many things.
"A prime part of the history of our Constitution...is the story of the extension of constitutional rights and protections to people once ignored or excluded." ~US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Well, no. Christianity is a strict religion and it teaches its followers to believe in the Triune God and to rely completely on the Bible for giodance. A devout Christian can't consciously choose to be a Buddhist at the same time. A Christian can adopt some of the principles of Buddhism the same way early Christians adopted some pagan symbols, but that Christian can't admit to being a Buddhist if you hear me.
This is what I advocate. To adopt other beliefs thats seem to be true to you.
I'll admit I dont believe in an actual being that is God. I think things sorta just happened. And wonderful things happened out of the violence when everything was created. But I have really strong moral opinions despite no being "Christian" even though I do follow some of their beliefs. I like being free to choose what is really true and what is just the church trying to dictate over my life.
Only Pi Patel can manage being a true Hindu Christian Muslim. But in that book the Life of Pi, Pi finds similarity in those three religions and is able to decide what he beleives. I think in the end he becomes an atheist... dont quote me on that though.
"Its all very well to practice but it will never work in theory."
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/daimler
"And yes,when I took World Religions, as a class, Buddhism is a way of life, and might seem "religious" but is actually not considered a "religion." You can be a buddhist and still be a Christian, or a Pagan, or a Catholic, or a whatever..."
Just because you can be a Buddhist Christian doesn't mean Buddhism is not a religion.
By definition:
re·li·gion –noun
1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
If Buddhism was not a religion, then it would not be in the archive listings of the world's religions.
2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8.Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
Buddhism
A belief about the afterlife
A belief of a supreme being and the forces of the universe
Follows a modeled way of life (after Buddha)
Has a strict moral code (The Four Noble Truths and the eight Fold Path)
Reflection upon the model (Buddha) through meditation (aka prayer)
Christianity
A belief about the afterlife
A belief ofa supreme being and the forces of the universe
Follows a modeled way of life (after Jesus Christ)
Has a strict moral code (Ten Commandments)
Reflection upon the model (Jesus) through prayer (aka meditation)
the only ONLY difference between Buddhism and Christianity as far as definitively speaking (without my two cents of opinion) is that Christians already believe they have a relationship with God (The Great Creator) and work to make it stronger through worship and personal reflection. While Buddhists claim to not have a relationship with the Great Creator because they will only know of "Him" or "His" existence only when they become the No Self. And their religious journey is to lead them closer and closer to that point through meditation and personal reflection. Different ways of worship, but still the same goal. Simply because Buddhists worship differently than Christians does not make it any less of a religion.
The professor who taught the class said, "Buddhism is not a religion, but is perceived to be." Perhaps he needs a refresher course.
"A prime part of the history of our Constitution...is the story of the extension of constitutional rights and protections to people once ignored or excluded." ~US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
He could have been letting his bias leak into the class. It's something he shouldn't have done.
May I ask you ...if we are just random cosmic accidents then WHY do our kids matter?
(I'm not saying your kids don't matter, I think they do but I don't think we are random cosmic accidents).
Going along with the cosmic accident thing, why does anything matter? Why does the environment matter...if the environment turns to custard, we all die, so what? Why is life important in that case?
I would like to know what you think.
Buddhism isn't even a religion in the sense that Christianity is a religion. It's hard to compare the two and decide one must be right and the other wrong.
Okay. The point is differences can be reconciled and their are good ideas in both Buddhism and Christianity and other religions/ways of life.
"Its all very well to practice but it will never work in theory."
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/daimler
I am reading the Life of Pi right now, and he did find common ground within Hindu, Muslim, and Christianity.
Haven't gotten to the end of it yet so I don't know whether he ends up atheist or not.
But it's a good read thus far.
"A prime part of the history of our Constitution...is the story of the extension of constitutional rights and protections to people once ignored or excluded." ~US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Whoops. Well I read it my senior year of HS so I'm a little foggy on the details... scratch that one.
Score Tally
meburgos 1 : Daimler 0
"Its all very well in practice but it will never work in theory."
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/daimler
He is still Hindu, Christian, and Muslim, or a least still believes in God. I didn't read it 20+ years ago when I was in high school, but my daughter had to read it for high school this year so I read it too. Interesting book.
"A prime part of the history of our Constitution...is the story of the extension of constitutional rights and protections to people once ignored or excluded." ~US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Can someone help me to understand how one could be a Buddhist Christian?
My understanding is:
Christianity says Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. We have one life, we die, are resurrected and judged. Given we are all sinners (everyone has done something wrong) we will all go to hell accept those who haven't rejected Jesus cos Jesus can redeem us so we can be forgiven our sins. All going well, we spend eternity with God.
Buddhism says we are reborn over and over until we reach enlightenment and No Self. Some people I've talked to say at that point you can cease to exist or choose to 'stay on' to help others reach enlightenment.
How are those two compatible? I cannot have one life and judgement with eternity AND multiple rebirths tending to nonexistence at the same time. Have I misrepresented one of them? How does a Buddhist Christian resolve this seeming conflict?
I don't follow any organized religion. Don't really consider myself a christian or anything. But I do think it is good for people to have religion in their lives.
I don't really think it is neccessary for people to believe in some kind of god, but I still think having religion in your life can only help.
So, I don't think of religion as, "what god do you believe in?" I think of religion as just set of beliefs. I think people should be consistent with their beliefs or actions or practices. Of course, people need to keep in my that they should try to follow the best course of actions. I just think people are helped by having some routine in their lives.
> My intent in writing this is to encourage acceptance of
> differing beliefs, not as a way to bash and criticize
> organized religions.
Call me crazy if you like, but I personally find it very difficult to "accept" it when a religion teaches its followers to believe that they should kill me.
percivale
As to the story of Pi, he couldnt really have been a true Christian as Jesus says we are to follow him and that he is the only way. Pi may have had Christian morals, but he was not a Christian.
Also, I'm not sure how most religious doctrines treat someone who participates in multiple faiths. I would think most call for one way of life. If everything in life doesnt have any eternal value, then go ahead and pick and choose because in the end it all doesnt matter. But if there is one truth, whether that be Christianity, Islam, or Buddhism, you'd end up losing a lot if you didn't choose one. Any religious belief requires a mixture of reason and faith. That's why you can't simply argue a religion and convince people to follow it. Personal experience is critical to one's beliefs.
Here is what I dont like about this though. Do you really need to accept everything to be a "Christian" or insert your religion of choice. Not everybody conforms to everything in the Bible. I'm sure plenty of Christians practice sodomy with their heterosexual partner, but that doesnt make them not Christian. People of a certain belief do things that is against what the Bible says and they are still Christian.
Its an interesting quandry about what a person of multiple faiths would be viewed. Its impossible to tell. I like to think that if there is a God he is truly as loving and forgiving of all. Everybody does some sort of wrong during their life.
My opinion on the whole concept of hell is that it is a way of scaring people into acting morally and virtuous. I dont think we can ever know the truth unless there is a God and you get to talk with Him when you die.
"Its all very well in practice but it will never work in theory."
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/daimler
Hi Daimler I will try to give you a Christian perspective, this is my own understanding:
Accepting Everything / Conforming: The fundamental belief of a Christian is that Jesus who was God's Son lived sinlessly, suffered an undeserved criminals death as punishment for your sins and mine, if we will accept it. Then he was resurrected bodily on the 3rd day. They are called to repent (turn away from) wrongdoing and gradually live more perfectly.
This belief and repentence I think is the baseline of who a Christian is, irrespective of what they do at a given moment.
Repentence will of course lead to living more in accordance with God's will, it's a free will thing (as it always is with God - you can't be FORCED to love) so it can be fast or slow depending on the person.
I'm not going to get into whether heterosexual sodomy within marriage say is right or not, lets move to something that is specifically mentioned in the Bible such as stealing. I know Christians who have stolen. The difference is, afterwards they realise and repent, aiming not to do it again. Not just accept it and go 'oh well, God will forgive me, what else can I nick?'. Difference in attitude. What you ARE is important in Christianity versus what you DO which flows from that.
Christianity is very much a journey, getting to know God as you go along. You get to know that committing sin, while it will always, I think, happen now and then, damages your relationship with God and/or other people, so is best avoided where you can.
One can accept Christ in whatever condition you are in. God meets you where you are. You will be changed. But since God is God and he loves you, it will be in your best interests. But, for everyone it is a journey.
"get to talk with Him when you die". The assumption here is that God doesn't interact with us until we die. The Bible says God is the God of the living, not the dead. We are resurrected before the judgement, i.e. alive. You can talk to God anytime you like, it is called prayer. If He decides to, He can even answer.
I invite you to pray to God, asking Him to make Himself known to you and work in your life. I believe He will hear you, and probably be happy to help you find Him and understand Jesus. The Bible promises that those that seek, find, and that He is not willing that anyone be lost.
I respect what you say here. I just want to say, discussions about religion doesn't always have to end in a yelling match. It just depends who you are arguing with.