So I am curious here.
If god can do anything, then why did jesus have to be sent to suffer and die on the cross in order for Christians to be saved from hell and absolved of all of their sins?
If god can do anything, then why does he create a world with deadly storms, famine, war, etc. if he can prevent it all?
Is this just a big game? Why make humans and then let them suffer?
This comes BEFORE the argument of "FREE WILL" because he never even had to put us in such a world to test us like this.
And when things like hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, genocides, wars, etc take place... why doesn't he step in?
Which one is it? God's will or free will? Since we do not control the weather... and God made this earth, does that mean that these things are his will? or does it mean he just made this earth and was like.... okay... good luck.
Also, then what would be the point of prayer if we have free will? That would mean that god cannot intervene in our lives right?
Why would he pick and choose?
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Imagine if there was a huge school shooting. The shooter is captured and taken. In the trial however, the Judge decides to be merciful and let the shooter go free. Could you imagine how the parents of the fallen students would feel? What about the student's friends? Letting the killer go would be an extreme unjust.
It would be equally unjust for God just do away with all of Humanities sins. Instead he gave his only Son to take our place and pay the price for our punishments.
God originally didn't create a world with sin. When Adam, who was the leader of humanity first sinned it brought death upon us. Sin corrupted the world against the way God intended the world to be.
Prayer makes complete since. Free will means we get to make our own choices and decisions. It doesn't mean that God can't intervene in our lives.
The school shooting scenario, in my opinion, is not on the same playing field as that of the god I am always hearing about.
Essentially you are saying that God (the Judge) has to punish Jesus?
Why? How does he fit in to the shooting anology? Why even send him in the first place? Why punish his son for something he didn't do, especailly if he was without sin?
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If God can do anything, then he could have made it so that Adam never committed a sin. He could have made it so we had free will, yet at the same time, sin never existed. If he created everything, then why must sin exist?
Additionally, he could have created other things then that do not exist and that we cannot even fathom... so you can't really argue a free will issue here. If something doesn't exist then its not an option.
He couldn't have created the world without sin if Adam could then go and sin... He had to have set up the rules and standards for what is a sin and what is not in order for sin to exist. Otherwise, what...are you using a nonsensical argument for and evolution of sin via human actions which were then defined as sin because god said so? I dont buy that one.
"Sin corrupted the world against the way God intended the world to be."
- If he can do whatever he wants, then he can do whatever he wants... so that doesn't make sense either.
And if you say that God can intervene in our lives, then why would he not prevent tragedies?
"Essentially you are saying that God (the Judge) has to punish Jesus?
Why? How does he fit in to the shooting anology? Why even send him in the first place? Why punish his son for something he didn't do, especailly if he was without sin?"
Did you read what I just wrote? Jesus took our punishment for us.
Free will means we have the choice to sin or not. Without the choice to do good or evil then there is no free will.
IF God had not given us the law the things that are evil would still be evil. Killing another human being would be evil. Stealing would be evil. If god had not given us the law it would have only meant that we would live our lives more poorly.
....than to never to have loved at all."
Life exists because death exists one with out the other could not be.
We see light against shadow, and shadow against light, yet alone either is invisible.
The cataclysms we are familiar with: storms, earthquakes, volcanos, tsunamis and more are tame compared to the ones that created this planet, or those on the surface of the sun. Yet with out the planet or the sun we could not live. Air with out wind is stagnant and stale, land with out rain is desert, liquid in great quantity has waves even very large ones. Solids without liquid cannot support life.
The greatest seasoning is hunger, and there is no value without scarcity. Any physical object is and always will be controlled by violent interaction with other objects. "What does not kill me makes me stronger." Steel is forged in fire. It is impossible to make the correct choice unless there is at least one incorrect choice availiable.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
"Life exists because death exists one with out the other could not be."
- It sure could, because god can do anything.
"We see light against shadow, and shadow against light, yet alone either is invisible."
- Yet, once again, this doesn't have to be true, because apparently this is just how god created it.
"The cataclysms we are familiar with: storms, earthquakes, volcanos, tsunamis and more are tame compared to the ones that created this planet, or those on the surface of the sun. Yet with out the planet or the sun we could not live. Air with out wind is stagnant and stale, land with out rain is desert, liquid in great quantity has waves even very large ones. Solids without liquid cannot support life."
- AND, Once again, if god created everything, then he could have made up completely different rules for physics and everything so that things like this would not have to exist.
"The greatest seasoning is hunger, and there is no value without scarcity. Any physical object is and always will be controlled by violent interaction with other objects. "What does not kill me makes me stronger." Steel is forged in fire. It is impossible to make the correct choice unless there is at least one incorrect choice availiable."
- Nothing, I have been told, is impossible with god.
Sure I agree with everything you said.
Now let's look at the choices before you.
A) Waaa! it's not fair! things should be different/better/designed for my convenience.
B) things are what they are and always will be. I'm glad to be alive. I'll live every day like it is a gift, and enjoy it to the fullest.
C) Nothing has any meaning. I know that meaninglessness is 'probably' the way things are. I have no reason to do anything. Maybe the government will do it for me.
Seems like a simple choice to me.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
The choices you presented to me were as follows:
"A) Waaa! it's not fair! things should be different/better/designed for my convenience."
- I'm not saying things are unfair, or that they should be different/better/designed for my convenience. What I am saying is that the fact that things are they way they are only further reinforces my belief that there is not a god.
"B) things are what they are and always will be. I'm glad to be alive. I'll live every day like it is a gift, and enjoy it to the fullest."
- I realize that I cannot re-create/evolve the world to my liking. I am happy to be alive; however, is it a gift from a higher being?... I doubt it. I thank my parents for making me and raising me, and I do try to live my life to the fullest. I exist, god may or may not.
"C) Nothing has any meaning. I know that meaninglessness is 'probably' the way things are. I have no reason to do anything. Maybe the government will do it for me."
-Some things in life do have meaning for me: friendships and love in my life are greatly appreciated and human-made links that I do enjoy.
I do not NEED answers (a belief in a higher being) to give meaning to everything. Also, I do not NEED everything to have a meaning via putting blind faith in a "higher being."
The reason I wake up every day and go out and try my hardest is because I believe that once I die, that's it. So I should make the most of my life. As for the government.... I tend to prefer limited government intervention.
I do not yearn for a god to appear and give meaning to my life, because I can find a meaning without having to put a hope and blind faith into something for an easy answer or easy reassurance.
I think it is a lot easier to have faith, than to accept that we are just are born, live, and die. and that's it. It may seem unsettling, but it makes enough sense to me. I do not NEED another reason (be it real or imaginary) to live, be a good person, or find happiness.
I understand that people use religion for this reassurance. AND I could be wrong, there could be a god.
Have you considered from a perspective of probability that eight pounds of protein at the end of a human neck might not be the highest form of inteligence?
Not to assume that anything else IS, just the ridiculous arrogance of the proposition.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
So you argue that I am arrogant because I do not believe in a god,
And that based on probability there must exist a "higher being" that is simply smarter than me.
Even fire ants see me first-hand if i step on their anthill, and even if I don't physically appear to them, I still wouldn't choose to reveal myself to them via ant-written scripture.
I just said that humans being the highest requires arrogance. I'm ignorant, and if you read it I specifically said "Not to assume that anything else IS"
Why did you purposefully misrepresent the question?
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
I just read the question and interpreted it as i thought you were trying to say.
Either way, im not going to believe in a higher being based on probability
First of all, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with asking questions about God. It's great to find out more about him. I just think that if you opened up your heart - not to an idea, not to some magical weird brain-washing - but if you opened up your heart, you just might find God. If you know God, you KNOW he's real. If you find God, through prayer and through reading his word, you just KNOW and for me, there's not a whole lot else to say about theories and proving and disproving. I just don't think all the discussion is necessary. If you know, you KNOW. If you don't, you have no idea. You can still have all these amazing questions and know God. Jesus died on the cross for people who didn't believe he was really God - they didn't believe the prophecies. And you don't either. But that doesn't change the fact that he exists in a very real way. I think an interesting question for you to ask in one of your posts would be, "Who is God?" What is God like? What does he do? You could generate some great discussion there, and maybe learn some things you might enjoy hearing a little better.