As posted on www.biggerview.blogspot.com
One issue that America is always striving with is religion. Many times we try to protect the freedom of religion, but yet we destroy that freedom. One problem is that people think the only way to protect the freedom of religion is the government endorsement of Atheism. Atheism, however, is a belief about god, and so it is a religion. Treating Atheism just like any other religion would protect the freedom of religion in the U.S. If we are in a setting where we do not see using a religion as appropriate, we should not use atheism.
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On one level, this argument makes a lot of sense, because very often views concerning God espoused by Athiests are given more credence because they are supposedly removed from religion, when these views are speaking to religion just as strongly as others. However, we encounter a problem at this point because either A, God Exists, or ~A, God Does Not Exist. One viewpoint is Traditionally Religious, and the other is Traditionally Athiest. Obviously, both cannot be right... but it is difficult, but not impossible, to discuss one without the other.
Not aware that Atheists believe in God.
Religion is desribed as believing in God, not just having an opinion on him, or her...or it. Therefore, atheists (myself included) cannot be religious because we do not believe in a higher power(s) that governs us all.
Not nescessarily... in a conversation with an atheist friend, I found he rejected and did not beleive in God as well. But he never said a God never existed... he just claimed that while others chose to follow Him, there are others like himself that choose not to and thus reject his deity and power. Did I sound confusing or is it a bit sensible?
So atheism does not have anything to do with god?
Religion is commonly defined as a group of beliefs concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions and rituals associated with such belief. So being religous has nothing, in fact, to do with believing in GOD. Yes, worshiping GOD is a religous act. However just acknowledging that there is a god does not make you religous. I myself believe that there is a god, but I'm not at all organized in my beliefs, so I don't consider myself religous. Furthermore, I'm against what a lot of religions base their "membership criteria" on and see it as more as a man-serving tool of society rather than god-serving. But that doesn't make me an atheist. In conclusion, this is a silly topic (silly in an amusing way) that is dancing around the real topic of separation of church and state. The role of our Gov't should be to protect everyone's right in believing whatever the heck they want to believe. the Gov't should not put mandates on what's acceptable to believe nor should it make your beliefs fit into a certain category in order to recieve protection. All in all, relegion or lack there of, is a private matter and should be kept that way, period.
Atheism is a LACK of belief in God. Therefore by the very definition it is impossible to be a religion.
Here, a well written explanation for you:
It seems to be getting more common to find theists - usually Christians - insisting that atheism is a religion. This assertion isn't compatible with standard definitions of either atheism or religion. No one looked up the two terms in a dictionary and made a casual connection between them; in fact, it's arguable that insisting on a connection does violence to both concepts.
Poch writes:
There is nothing of religion that is associated with Atheism. We have no dogmas, no rituals, no gods, no priests, no worship, no prayer, no holy places, no churches, temples, no synagogues, and no miracles. Any dictionary or encyclopedia will tell you that religion is a system of attitudes, practices, rites, ceremonies and beliefs by means of which individuals or the community put themselves in relation to a god or to a supernatural world, and from which the religious person derives a set of values by which to judge events in the natural world.
"Atheism is religion." When you hear a statement like this, it often comes form a person who has actually done little research or thinking about either Atheism or religion. Most people rarely study or investigate their own religious beliefs, assuming they have any. If they are born in a predominately Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Jewish culture, they will probably reflect the religious beliefs of that society.
Nearly every dictionary will define religion as "belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed a worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe. The definition of all other terms linked to religion employ much the same language -- church, monastery, priest. They are all part of a religious-language universe or "game" that has little to do with Atheism.
There cannot be an Atheist "Church", or an Atheist "priest" anymore than there could be an Atheist "god."
Yes, very true. The lack of belief, belief that higher powers do not exist and having no belief in religion does not make atheism a religion. In order for it to be classified as a religion, it would need rituals and all those that religions have. Now, I believe that theists are the ones saying that Atheism is a religion, as an attack at atheists to try to prove to them that they are religious to an extent; which is false.
If I say you don't exist I'm saying it about you. If I say that god dosn't exist, than I am saying it about god, therefore saying god dosn't exist is religious.
"If I say you don't exist I'm saying it about you. If I say that God doesn't exist, then I am saying it about God, therefore saying God doesn't exist is religious."
No it's not. You are using the term "religious" incorrectly. You can only BE religious if you have a set of religious beliefs. The ABSENCE of such beliefs can't make you religious. That's a complete oxymoron and it doesn't make any sense.
However, you can be an atheist and not have to say the "God doesn't exist". That's not something you can prove anyway, it's an opinion. It is impossible to PROVE something doesn't exist. It's why can't prove there is no Loch Ness Monster, or Bigfoot, or Santa Claus or Aliens.
But that isn't how the world works anyway. If someone makes a claim that something DOES exist, it is up to the person making the claim to support it with evidence if they expect it to be potentially believed as fact.
An atheist simply doesn't believe in a God or Gods. Period. That doesn't mean they claim one doesn't exist, or that they wouldn't be open to the possibility, it simply means they aren't convinced by any reason so far to believe there is one.
To reiterate, the lack of a belief cannot make you religious. You are almost using a double negative by trying to suggest that "An atheist believes that he doesn't believe in god, so this makes his belief religious because he believes that he doesn't believe in God."
I'm sure you can look at that sentence and understand why that doesn't make sense?
Youve probably hear this form of definition before. Religous- Pertaining to religion. I think Atheism has a lot to say about religion, what is atheism past the belief that there is no god?
Saying something about religion does not make you religious. You are wasting your arguments on trivialities.
but you are still talking about the subject of religion
"But you are still talking about the subject of religion"
So what? If I talk about Harry Potter does that make me a wizard?
No matter how much you break it down, some people will never be capable enough to understand.
no, but you are saying something about wizards.
Atheism is defined as: Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
Religion is defined as: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
After reading these two definitions determine whether or not you still believe that atheism should be treated as a religion. Now in order to be treated as a religion the faith must be based on the belief in a God (God is the creator and governor of the universe and he has all power) and atheism is the disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. So now do you understand or see why atheism has never been treated as a religion and should not ever be treated as one in the future?
I think that atheism is a religion. I think of myself as an atheist and what it means to me is that there is no higher power. So following that logic, it is a belief system that human beings are the highest power and therefore constitutes a religion.
Lord people, can't you learn the bloody English language? Saying Atheism is like a religion is like saying bald is a hair colour, or illiteracy is a form of literacy. It is the LACK of religion, so it can't be a FORM of religion.
Here, someone summed this issue up in complete terms. Read and learn:
The only reason people try to pull this crap is so they can try to lump Atheism in with religions, and therefore try to defend themselves by claiming their lack of belief is a belief and therefore unprovable. It's dishonest idiocy.
That made me laugh. But we can argue that English is a flexible language. What means one thing to someone can mean another thing to someone else!
Actually, I was half serious.
Atheism is not a form of religion
Religion -
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
-Atheists deny a god or gods exist.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
- How can we worship if we believe there is no god?
If atheism is not a religion, then why do aethiests demand protection of their religous freedom from the first amendmant?
If atheism is not a religion? It isn't.
We want a wall of separation as Jefferson put it. We want freedom from religion.
i did not think in fact i know they do not belive in god
Believe there is no god. Huge difference.
I think a more accurate way to describe atheism would be as a spirituality more than religion. Religion is a belief in a God and spirituality is holding a relationship with that God. Atheists denounce the existence of a God, but that is still a relationship. And the choice to hold this relationship should be protected by freedom of religion.
How can a person have a relationship with something that does not exist?
Perhaps relationship is not the word I'm looking for, but for lack of a better phrase right now I will work with it. I do not mean relationship as in father, mother, friend, husband, and etc. I mean an interaction or lack of interaction.
First, please take into account that I am assuming many or most atheists at one time were a member of an organized religion. In my experience, the ones that eventually denounce the existence of any God are the ones who have, at least to some extent, done research, reading, or in some other way self-educated themselves and found a belief that better suits them.
Even if they did not believe in a God ever, more than likely they were still taught about a God or at least some higher power at some point in time in their life. And still they chose to believe He/She/They/It does not exist.
Expressing the belief that there is no God is a form of spirituality in that it entails a action based on independence from a higher being, rather than a dependence or in some cases co-dependence.
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"Dream as though you'll live forever, but live as though there's no tomorrow" --James Dean
http://www.progressiveu.org/user/fanaile-drupal-org
"I am assuming many or most atheists at one time were a member of an organized relligion".
You'd be assuming wrong. There are scores of people that never believed in God. The simplistic faith arguments never swayed them.
"Expressing the belief that there is no God is a form of spirituality in that it entails an action based on independance from a higher being, rather than a dependance or in some cases co-dependence".
You are looking at this the wrong way. It can't BE a form of spirituality when the person in question has no BELIEF in spirituality. Taking a position AGAINST something does not make one part of that subject.
As I believe I gave as an example earlier, Illiteracy can't be defined as a form of "literacy". It is opposite. You are trying to link an atheists LACK of belief into a positive spin of "they BELIEVE" that there is no God. It is a huge difference and it is also incorrect except for some of them. Sure there are some atheists that go farther and state that they literally do NOT believe that there is a God or Gods, but most just don't know one way or the other, they just reserve judgement until they ever see EVIDENCE for one. So it is simply a LACK of belief, not a FORM of belief. Do you understand?
Actually, Atheism has been declared as a religion in the US.
--Mike
"We want a wall of separation as Jefferson put it. We want freedom from religion."
So does that mean you want there to be no religion?
Not at all. What we want is to not feel forced to have a religion of some kind. I have been to events in which there was a "moment of prayer" in which each person was to silently pray to their chosen deity. But since I have none, this is unfair to me. That kind of a thing.
As far as atheism being a religion, I believe it is not. But, according to these two definitions, it is:
"A framework of beliefs relating to supernatural or superhuman beings or forces that transcend the everyday material world." (www.modernhumanorigins.com/r.html)
Atheists certainly have belief about supernatural and superhuman beings: they believe they do not exist.
"a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power." (oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth370/gloss.html)
An atheist by definition has beliefs pertaining to supernatural power.
"belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices and institutions associated with such belief." (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion)
Same as last.
As I said, I do not believe atheism is a religion. But I believe that, just as Christians are not made to feel that they should be Hindu or Wiccan, atheists should not be made to feel that they should believe anything other than what they do, and in that way they should have the same protection that an organized religion has.
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I may be sleeping but at least I dream
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The real issue is this:
Just as the Atheist should not be forced to act like a Christian, neither should the Christian be forced to act like an Atheist. That is where the debate lies.
The reason so many "religious" people want Atheism classified as a religion is because the Atheist view is being pushed on us BY THE GOVERNMENT. Thomas Jefferson NEVER said that we had a freedom FROM religion. Rather, in the letter from which he is often quoted, you can see that he is a proponent of just the opposite if you read it in full context (Quoted below).
Religious groups, such as Christians or Muslims, have the God given and government protected right to practice their religion. Proselytizing is often a part of their firmly held religious beliefs and should not be considered criminal by the U.S. government. Places like Communist Russia and China outlaw proselytizing, but the U.S. is supposed to have freedom OF religion.
If I am the Valedictorian at my government run high school and am given the privilege to speak, I should be allowed to speak of my beliefs openly without them being treated as foul words. In the same manner, if an atheist is the Valedictorian, he/she should be given the freedom to speak of his/her belief in self-empowerment. The government should not enforce one belief over another.
What is happening is that we who believe are being told that our religion is only legal if we keep quiet. We are told to act like Atheists in public and to hold our religion privately.
So when we Christians say that we think Atheism should be classified a religion, it is not because we are ignorant of dictionary definitions or the concept in not believing a god Exists vs. believing In God. We are merely trying to protect our rights to be vocal of our beliefs. Freedom of speech is not just for foul mouthed perverts, it is for all speech including political and religious.
If we meet on the streets, I will try to share the Gospel with you. If you ask me to stop, I will (I'm not looking for a fight). If I am given a public audience, I will speak of God. If an Atheist is given the same audience, I would not pass a law mandating he/she recognize God. It is not the government's place to FORCE either belief on us. We are all free to express our views as our conscience dictates.
Just as the Atheist should not be forced to act like a Christian, neither should the Christian be forced to act like an Atheist. That is where the debate lies.
Original letter by Thomas Jefferson that is so often quoted:
"To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802."