I believe in God and here's why. God is documented just like any other past history. The Bible is just one documentation of God. It has, before Christ came, when Chirst came, and after Chirst. I do not understand how some people can believe in wars and past people, famous people but not believe in God. Everything that has been documented in the past we are taught in school, except for God. There are wars and famouse people that we are taught that is documented in the bible. If you do not believe in God, how can you believe in Spartans? Or King Napolean? Or even the Haulocaust? How can you just choose to believe in every document but the one's about God? If God doesn't exist how can Columbus? For all we know he could have been made up. And some of you will question me asking me if Columbus didn't exist how did we get here? And I would reply back, if God doesn't exist how did we get here? We didn't get here from the Big Bang Theory that's for sure! We didn't get here from a single celled orgamism that started in the ocean. And I know that because single-celled orgamisms can never become multi-celled orgamisms, and our eyes are multi-celled. So that's definitely out of the question.
PS I am not saying just christianity, that's just simply what I am and the one that came naturally to me to say in this context. And I'm not saying that it's wrong that people believe in other things. I'm simply saying that there is evidence that God exists just like there is evidence that Napolean existed. I'm am also saying that you contridict yourselves by saying you believe in all of this history but you decide not to believe in God, because he is different from a war or a human. There are more documents about God's existance other than the Bible, and there is evidence. I appreciate the arguments though. It's always fun to listen and take in what others think.
I found a pretty good website about this:
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
But like this article explains, if someone chooses not to believe say the moon exists, then no matter what you show them whether it be moon rocks, pictures of the moon, meeting people how have been there, they still could not believe because they choose not to. I find it ironic how Christianity is always criticized, but all the other religions are not. I think that says something in it's self.
And as you probably could tell from my username that I do believe God exists.
Another point about the multi-celled thing is that DNA cannot come from any non-living thing which gases such as carbon are non-living
A great book to pick up and read is Fast Facts on False Teachings by Ed Decker and Ron Carlson. It explains the true facts behind Buddism, Hundism, Cults, Evolution, and more.
Also has a really great section about the Attributes of God.
Another thing I do not understand about Evolution is how it just stops, where is the next step in the process? Will we turn into aliens one day? Or can we not tell yet because it takes "millions" of years to figure this out?
Do you know what DNA is? Seriously? It's made up of a sugar, which is made up of, guess what: Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen. It has a nitrogenous base. Again, Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Nitrogen. Then, it has a bunch of phosphate groups, which are made up of phosphorus and oxygen. It's entirely plausible that DNA could be made up from other organic molecules.
You know, people once thought that organic molecules (molecules containing carbon) couldn't come from non-living sources. Then someone made urea in a test tube.
And... evolution hasn't stopped. Haven't you every worked with bacteria?
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
arnt non-living and unorganic ( I couldn't think of its opposite) the same thing? he was saying you cant take non-livingmaterial to make DNA with. I dont know anything about this but I think you may have read it wrong (or maybe I did).
locke
You can have organic material that isn't alive.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
1) Inorganic.
2) No, non-living and inorganic are not the same thing. Traditionally, organic meant living matter, but now it is defined as matter that contains carbon. Alcohol is organic, by definition. Diamonds are organic.
3) I just explained that you could. DNA is made up of atoms arranged in certain ways to form the DNA we are familiar with. If those atoms are presents, under the right conditions, it's plausible that they will form bonds and create DNA. It's not something that would happen overnight, sure, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't ever happen.
There have been experiments that remade the conditions on primordial earth that formed amino acids. Amino acids are the starters for proteins. From there, you make tRNA, and then mRNA, and then turn that into DNA. Again, wouldn't happen over night, but that doesn't mean it's not possible.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
We can't turn into aliens, because that means that we will evolve into something not from earth.
There is a good reason why we don't know how we will evolve. (Except for things like losing useless organs like the appendix) Animals evolve because of a need to adapt to new circumstances. We can make guesses about these new circumstances, and they may be very intelligent circumstances, but we don't know. Let's just say, though, that global warming goes through the roof. We might evolve in ways that allow us to store water in our bodies for long periods of time.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
There's a very good reason why I believe in historical people like Emperor Bonaparte, peoples like the Spartans and events like the Holocaust. Effects of their existence, which can be clearly linked to them, can be witnessed today. We have Spartan artifacts, Belgium (created after Napoleon was defeated the first time) and there are still Holocaust Survivors. We have documentation from a lot of different sources. Further more, all of these things could have happened within the natural laws of the universe. It doesn't bend the laws of nature for Napoleon Bonaparte to exist.
Also, the things being set forth as true by any religion are incredibly big, unlikely claims. And the bigger, and more unlikely, the claim, the more evidence should be required for validation.
Also, why Christianity? Why not Judaism? Why not Islam? Why not Zoroastrianism? Why not Mormonism?
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
I, for one, am agnostic. I believe there is a higer power out there, but not necessarily God. You said that everyone believes in every other religion except for Christianity. And that's not true. I believe that people worship gods and that they believe what their holy book may say. I don't believe that Jonah was eaten by a whale and lived. I don't believe that David killed a giant man. (Unless by giant, the Bible simply meant 6'5") I don't believe that there was a flood and this old guy built a giant boat and took TWO of EVERY animal around on board. Nor do I believe that woman was made from a man's rib. Or that Noah and his wife had to repopulate the world. Where are the dinosaurs? Where do they come into play in the Bible? I used to go to church when I was younger, and I asked my pastor this question. He told me to look to the Bible for my answer. That all the answers to life would be in there. I looked. I've had my dad read the Bible to me. Passages. No where are there dinosaurs to be found. Dinosaurs are scientifically proven. But they're not in the Bible. So how do you explain that? As for Columbus and Napolean and all the others, there are SEVERAL historical documents describing their lives and attributions. There is only one Bible. Everything else that speaks of God and His doings, are derived from the Bible. The Bible is open for interpretation. It is wrong to think others are wrong for believing something different than yourself. I'm not saying that God isn't real. I'm saying that I do not believe in him 100%.
Another problem for the evoultionists is Biochemical reproduction. Every cell (no matter how simple) in plants, animals, and human beings has what is called a "complex metabolic motor." This is the ability of the cell to extract energy from its enviroment in order to supply energy for the reproduction of the cell and other cell needs. For life to exist, you must have this metabolic motor. But this metabolic motor can only be produced by life! The riddle then becomes: "How, when no life existed, did substances come into being which are absolutely essential for life, but which can only be produced by life?" You have the same problem, for example, with DNA, deoxyribonucleic acis. DNA is the genetic code, fromed in a double-helix strand, which determines the hereditary characteristics of a human being. DNA is absolutely essential for life to exist. But DNA can only be produced by life. How, when no life existed, did DNA come into existence? In an interesting sidelight, Time magazine published an article a few years ago about a DNA sampling of a cross section of women worldwide. The test covered women of all the major ethnic classifications. The article, titled Mother Eve, showed that the DNA characterisitcs of all the many women tested went back to one single woman!
You're wrong, and stop trying to pretend that you're right. DNA can exist outside of cells. There are viruses that are made up of RNA with no protein coat (or maybe it is DNA... I don't study viruses much).
Also, you make it sound like the motor is an actual organelle, which it isn't (beside the fact that prokaryotes don't HAVE organelles, you clearly stated that it was just the ability of the cell to get energy from its surroundings). Well, guess what? Chlorophyll is made up of different chemicals. It absorbs light of certain frequencies/wavelengths, and converts it into energy for the cell. It is present in single cellular, prokaryotic algae. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that certain chemicals happened to get arranged in some way so to benefit both those chemicals and the earth as a whole?
Next you're going to tell me that living things need oxygen, and oxygen wasn't present in primordial earth, so life obviously couldn't form.
As for your Mother Eve thing... the human line had to start somewhere... proving we all came from the same ancestress means nothing, because it's supported by evolution as well.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Why?
Secular Basis for Self-Esteem
You are the descendent of a tiny cell of primoridal protoplasm that washed up on an ocean beach 3 1/2 billion years ago. You are the blind and arbitrary product of time, chance, and natural forces. Your closest living relatives swing from trees and eat crackers at the zoo. You are the mere grab bag of atmic particles, a conglomeration of genetic substance. You exist on a tiny planet in a minute solar system in an obscure galaxy in a remote and empty corner of a vast, cold, and meaningless universe. You are flying through lifeless space with no purpose, no direction, no control, and no destiny but final destruction. You are a purely biological entity, different only in degree but not in kind from a microbe, virus, or amoeba. You have no essence beyond your body, and at death you will cease to exist entirely. What little life you do have is confined to a fragile body aimlessly moving through a world plagued by war, famine, and disease. The only questio is whether the world will manage to blow itself up before your brief and pointless life ends on its own. In short, you cam from nothing, you are giong nowhere, and you will end your brief journey beneath six feet of direct, where all that is you will become food for bacteria and rot with worms.
Now...why don't you feel good about yourself?
Christian Basis for Self-Esteem
You are a special creation of a good and all-powerful God. You are the climax of His creation, the magnum opus of the greatest artist in the universe. You are created in His image, with capacities to think, feel, and worship that set you above all other life forms. You differ from the animals not simply in degree by in kind.
Not only is your kind unique, but you are unique among your kind. God has masterminded the exact combination of DNA and chromosomes that constitute your genetic code, making you as different from all others as every snowflake differes from the rest.
Your Creator loved you so much and so intensely desires your companionship and affection that, despite your rebellion, He gave the life of His only Son that you might spend eternity with Him. If you are willing to accept the gift of salvation, you can become a child of God, the King of the universe.
As a Christian, you are clothed with righteousness of Christ. He has given you special gifts and abilites to serve him a particular and unique way.
Your heavenly Father is sovereign, and will allow nothing to cross your path that is not Father-filtered. He cares for you so much that He is totally available to you at all times, and listens to every word you say. He cares deeply about your hurts, and has a perfect plan for your life. He has given you the inspired Word of God as a road map for living. He gives you the truth that sets you free, a life that is abundant and eternal, and a spiritual family that loves and needs you.
Your destiny is to live forever in a magnificent kingdom, to reign with Christ over the universe. You will forever enjoy the wonders of His persence and the marvels of His creations. You will spend eternity in intimate and joyful fellowship with your beloved Lord and your precious spiritual family.
Now...hose does that make you feel about yourself?
(Fast Facts on False Teachings, Evolution: The Incredible Theory, p.62-64)
I think, I love, I laugh, I feel pain. These are why I live and if god doesn't exist I will still go one being me. My children will remember me and there will be records of me. How could you possible try to make someone feel as low as they would if they listened to your depressing view on creationalism as viewed by science. I think the scientific community is probably more interesting for god than your worn out quotings from a book he wrote. I think he probably gets a kick out of how they try and explain him away by a series of observations made over the course of a couple of measly thousand years. Being not only a slight christian but valuing happiness over all else I just cant imagine how loving god as you say, you could possibly try to hurt a person as you tried to do with you're ranting about how their life is meaningless. Then you try to show them this grand plan for how to make them feel good about themselves...God. not that the person you're replying to gives a care as to what you think you know about the universe, but I can tell you one thing. Love would be no less sweet if god didn't exist, and death no less pain. Children would still be protected whatever jesus said about not harming them, and bringing them into the word would still be the most beautiful thing in the world. If you believe that life without god is not life at all you may as well go die somewhere and go meet him because if you haven't noticed he presance is not very dominating in this day and age. I've heard of miricals still happening and gods gaze crosses this planet from time to time sure. But he wants to see what we'll do and people like you, who feel that they must show everyone the inadequacys in their beliefs make me and most likly god, if he has a stomach, sick. I think you should spend a little more time reading the good book you quote and see about a referance on the golden rule. No, you know what, I'll save you the time "love thy neighbor as you love thyself." I'm sure you wish some one would understand your twisted beliefs. I hope you are shamed to disgrace the christian name by claiming to be a part of it. Now look at what you have me doing the same thing. I just want you to know my passion was incensed by the comment you made to a person who, though we dont know each other at all, I consider is my friend. and out of my love for you because while i might not know you I have made your mistakes and I know what it is to hurt someone in the place it matters most, the heart. please dont make that mistake again.
I actually thought about this last night, even before you said all of this, which is true. It does not make any sense to try to convince someone of something and by doing that mock the belief I am trying to make you believe. I did not mean for any of this to hurt anyone. I only explain my faith and beliefs so that others can experience what I have with God, a personal and loving relationship that is amazing. I am not saying my life is perfect, nor my relationship with him is perfect, all I am saying is that God gives me hope. I know that even if no one loves me, he still will. I know that even if no one knows who I am, he does. He knew me before I was even born and continues to know me today. I am not trying to make you all believe anything. You guys just asked me some questions and I answered them. Again I am sorry for hurting anyone if I did (I am not trying to say your feelings are weak either). This is why I think I should not participate in this thread any longer. I will still be on the website just not on this particular blog about whether God exists or not. Thanks for listening to me and arguing my points, which I already knew were falliable by science. All I have is faith, and that will sustain me.
"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:8-15
:)) I can't help myself!!!! :)) :)) :)) :))
I feel plenty good about myself. Without your god. Why? I have friends who I care about and who care about me. I have a loving family. I have the respect of my peers. That's enough for me. I don't need the approval of some god to feel good about myself! :))
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
Christian Basis for Self-Esteem
I am the product of an incompetent designer. One who made my spine lordose leaving me susceptibe to back pain. One who made my urethra run right through the middle of my prostate making urination difficult in my old age. One that gave me a degraded cecum (the vermiform appendix) that is uniquely susceptible to infection. One that built the light sensitive cells within my eyes behind cells that process the visual information so that light is degraded before it is sensed, and also making necessary to have a blind spot in each eye. One who designed me to carry my entire weight on relatively small soles, making me susceptible to flat feet. One who decided for some bizarre reason to have my third molars erupt during my early adulthood in jaws too small to accommodate them. One who made the birth canal go through a bone-enclosed space too small to accommodate our brains, forcing us to have our skulls deformed during the process.
I am the product of a designer that hated us so much he INTENTIONALLY made small pox, a disease that ONLY affected humans. He also INTENTIONALLY made a variety of parasites that make us diseased and kill us. Included in those diseases are such historically important ones as Bubonic Plague, Malaria, Typhoid, Tuberculosis, AIDS, H5N1 Influenza, Syphillis, Gonorrhea. Included in the parasites are a variety of mosquitos, lice, ticks, and flukes ... all INTENTIONALLY created by God.
I am the product of a God who wont show himself, but gets so ticked off at humans not believing in him that he kills everybody and everything in a global flood.
I am the product of God who seems to make my entire earthly existence some type of bizarre entrance exam into heaven. A God who tells me that no matter what I do, I am unworthy to get into heaven. That by all rights I deserve an eternity of torture in the fires fo hell, but that if I believe some rather arbitrary thing for which there is no apparent evidence then he may let me in anyway.
Secular Basis of Self-Esteem
I am part and parcel of the Universe. Everything I can possibly see arose from an area smaller than th eye of a needle, and I am part of that. I am star-stuff ... elements cooked up in the nuclear furnaces of long-ago stars. I am the product of 3.5 billion years of evolution. This links me to every other living thing on this planet. I am a cousin to everything.
I am the product of a long line of ancestors, everyone of whom lived a successful life with respect to reproduction. Evolutionary forces pushed us to become social species. Evolutionary forces have honed my capacity to love and reason to an extraordinarily high degree. I am part of a species that is capable of great achievements. I have the ability to make of this world what I want. I can do good, but I can do bad as well. The choice on what to do is mine. It is a great responsibility, but I emdowed through evolutionary processes to handle those responsibilities.
So which makes you feel better?
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
First of all, you're going on the assumption that I don't believe in God, or that I don't believe he exists. That's not at all accurate, sorry to tell you. I was just pointing out how incredibly flawed your argument is based on science.
Secondly, what makes you think that people who believe in evolution 1) don't believe in God, and 2) don't believe in some purpose to life? Yes, if you look at us, we are just a bunch of chemical reactions. Action potentials and sodium-potassium pumps and glucose transporters... all chemical reactions. But we think and feel and love and everything else just fine. I can hurt you emotionally just as simply as I can hurt you physically. I can think... whether it's all an illusion or not doesn't matter.
And for the record, I feel great about myself. Have for a few years now.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
"In the Bible, in Job 40:15-24, God describes to Job (who lived after the Flood) a great beast with which Job was familiar. This great animal, called ‘behemoth,’ is described as ‘the chief of the ways of God,’ perhaps the biggest land animal God had created. Impressively, he moved his tail like a cedar tree! Although some Bible commentaries say this may have been an elephant or hippopotamus, the description actually fits that of a dinosaur like Brachiosaurus. Elephants and hippos certainly do not have tails like cedar trees!
Actually, very few animals are singled out in the Bible for such a detailed description. Contrary to what many may think, what we know now as dinosaurs get more mention in the Scriptures than most animals! So dinosaurs—all the different kinds—must have lived alongside of people after the Flood." (Answersingensis.com)
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp
Job 40:15-24:
15 "Look at the behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!
17 His tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.
19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
20 The hills bring him their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.
23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes,
or trap him and pierce his nose?
How is it that dinosaurs and whatnot are said to have lived WITHOUT human interaction. That there were NO humans on Earth when the dinosaurs roamed. I'm sorry dearest, but no matter what Biblical B.S you throw at me, I'm not going to believe the Bible is anything other than a book written by "Holy" men back in the day that worshipped some long haired guy that had some sweet tricks. The Bible is open to interpretation.
I've come to realize that Christians are one of the most udgemental groups ever.
To be a Christian is to be God like. I doubt any of you have remained pure your entire life.
Oh yes...and As for those little excerpts you provided. I take them as exaggerations. Like I said before....David and Golliath...Noah and the Ark. (how could it POSSIBLY rain for 40 days. There would have to be evapration and all, and if it rained for 40 days, there was no time for eaporation)
Actually, the tale thing is a mistranslation. In the hebrew, the "tale" is actually the behemoths genitals.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
who said that dinosaurs roamed without humans present? is that your opinion? sorry I am just a little bit confused.
You asked me where it was in the Bible. I gave it to you, I mean it is your choice to believe it or not. And you are right many christian people and even dominations interpret the Bible differently. It is kind of like the Supreme Court with the Consititution. No you are right about that. Not one christian is pure, sinless, or perfect. I know for a fact that I am not. But you do not have to be that is what is so great about it. Jesus died so that we could live. He forgives us for all the wrong and allows us to be able to live eternally with Him. That is what a christian is, a believer in God, someone who believes that they cannot save themselves from their sin (which leads to death) and depends on God to save them. Christians do strive to be God-like, yes. God calls us to be Holy because he is Holy. Can we ever obtain that? No. Then why do we do any good at all? If we love someone we want to do good for them and follow their rules. God says if you love me then you will do as I command. I try everyday to please God because that is how I show Him that I love Him. The situations in my life where I do not measure up to that, I ask God for forgiveness. That is the great thing about our personal relationship with Him, he will never abandon you and take you back no matter how much you sin. Does that mean we should abuse this mercy? By no means. But I believe that is for another discussion, and it would be useless to explain Romans 6 which explains this since you do not believe in the Bible.
I can't figure out who you're talking to, because you're not using the reply link at the bottom of each comment. That helps the conversation flow better....
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Give us the evidence, then. And the Bible doesn't count. Why doesn't the Bible count? Because not everything in the Bible can be proven to be true (for example, my history professor says there's no archaeological evidence of millions of people leaving Egypt and wandering around the desert for more than 40 years... I haven't been able to verify that, but he specializes in ancient cultures).
~C
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Then you believe in Zeus, Aphrodite, Thor, Odin, Ra, Marduk, Baal, Osirus, etc.? They too are documented. Or, how about some of the Christian Pseudepigrapha? They are non-canonical books about God, Jesus and the apostles. They document things too. Do you believe them? For instance the Infancy Gospel of Jesus has the infant Jesus killing an obnoxious playmate. Do you believe that? How about The Acts of Peter? In that one in order to impress the people that he has the power of God, Peter brings a smoked fish back to life. Do you believe that?
Or ... could it just possibly be that everything that is "documented" in old writings is not true?
Really?? When was the last time you actually read On the Origin of Species
Actually, the wars that are detailed in the bible are the ones that directly affected Israel, and since Israel was as a country pretty insignificant those wars were insignificant. The bible does make mention of some important ones such as Nebuchadrezzar's seige of Tyre, but it gives no details of those.
It does make mention of famous people from antiquity, but to the best of my knowledge, absolutely NO ONE doubts that the bible doesn't contain SOME things that are historically accurate.
Evidence
Erm ... do you mean EMPEROR Napoleon?
Evidence (that is Napoleon's tomb)
Evidence :(
I certainly hope that people not only have enough skepticism to not believe the documents that refer to people like Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, Captain America, Spiderman, Zorro, and Gumby too.
I am about as skeptical an atheist as you will ever find and not even I believe that EVERYTHING in the bible is untrue.
So your premise is wrong on both counts, nobody believes everything other than the bible and nobody doubts that some things in the bible are true.
The question you need to answer is how to you justify believing the bible's supernatural claims and not believe the supernatural claims of the Iliad or the Oddessey?
If Opus the Penguin doesn't exist how can Columbus? I think the answer to that is obvious enough. And, unless the answer you came up with is off the wall, that same answer should suffice to answer your question as well.
Evidence. This is a link to an English language translation of a letter Columbus sent to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella describing Hispanola. The original is still in existence. Interestingly in the small town of Boalsburg, Pennsylvania, there is a museum with a lot of important artifacts from Columbus' voyages and his possessions. Included in that are family archives.
I doubt if anybody can date their ancestry back to any of Columbus' voyages.
I got here by hard work, earning enough money to buy my house, and affording a high-speed internet connection. But if you are asking how humans got here, then we got here through a process of evolution.
Evidence
Of course not, we evented the BBT. But the EVIDENCE sure suggests that the BBT accurately describes the expansion of the universe.
Don't like the ocean? How about clays, ponds, or even outer space? True ... we don't know exactly where life got started but doesn't it bother you a little that people can find evidence that suggest it COULD have started in a huge variety of environments?
Erm ... YOU started out as a single-celled organism ... a fertilized egg. But if you don't like that example:
That is a picture of streptococcal bacteria. Are they single-celled or are the multicellular? if a cell is isolated it can survive on its own, but as it divides it will produce a linear colony.
This is a picture of a Volvox. It is a colonial organism. Each cell is capable of living autonomously, but they survive better in groups. Once in a group some cells even specialize for reproduction.
This is a sponge, a member of the phylum Porifera. Everyone considers it a multicellular organism, however, you can put it into a Waring blender and dissociate its cells and the cells will survive. Pour them into a flask and the organism will reassemble itself. Do that to two different sponges and the dissociated cells from the two different organisms can recombine to form a single organism.
So, tell me again why it is that single-celled organisms can't become multicellular ones?
Then you DO believe in Zeus??
Erm ... show me a picture of God's tomb.
The problem is they suffer from the same problem as that of the bible. They are unreliable. Let's just look at the bible. The very first story in Genesis is creation account. However, even before Darwin science had shown that account did not fit with the reproducible data we found in Nature. That is why people like James Hutton postulated an old earth much older than the bible's 6,000 years.
The next story talks about Adam and Eve. All the evidence suggests we evolved from ape-like ancestors. The Adam and Eve pericope simply doesn't fit the empircal facts There never was an historical Adam or Eve. How could eating an apple (euphemism for the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil) POSSIBLY instill knowledge of good and evil? When was the last time you heard a serpent talk? There never was a Garden of Eden.
The bible then goes on to give genealogies of the first people. Many lived over 900 years! From everything we can independently glean from human anatomy and physiology, that is impossible.
The pericopes of Noah's flood are not compatible with geology. We can't even make a completely wooden boat TODAY that is 450 long that is water tight. How could Noah? No boat could possibly carry two pairs of all known organisms. How did animals like the platypus and kangaroo get back to Australia?
The pericopes concerning Abraham have him owning camels. But according to the best evidence we have, camels weren't domesticated until hundred of years after the supposed time of Abraham.
There is no archaeological evidence what-so-ever for the Exodus. 600,000 plus Israelites of fighting age along with the elderly, wives, and children spent 40 years camping in an area about the size New Jersey and despite thousands of digs not one of their campsites has ever been found?? Plenty of campsites from small camel caravans have been found, but nothing suggesting that.
In one of Joshua's battles God keeps the sun in the sky an extra hour as an aid to Joshua. But from our perspective nowadays, to do that would require that God would have had to stop the earth's rotation. But at that latitude the earth is rotating about 1000 miles per hour. Stopping the earth's rotation should have been analogous to be thrown out of a car going 1000 mph. Joshua and everybody else should have died.
With things like this the veracity of biblical testamony is put under suspicion. So what else do we have to go on? Well if as theists believe, God intervenes in the activities of this world then we should be able to find evidence of it. When we look for such evidence in intercessory prayer requests we don't find it. In fact, we don't find anything that can pass scientific muster suggesting God's existence.
Why is there this "divine hiddeness"? Many theist give the free-will argument. If God were to reveal himself then we would be FORCED to believe in him. That is ridiculous. If God were to reveal himself and claim to be God exactly as the bible portrays him, then I might very well believe in his existence but I'm not going to be worshiping something that would do what the bible claims God did in the Noachian flood.
To give that story a modern context ... in an election for the position of GOD, God garners only 8 votes. He loses miserably to a field that is composed of the supernatural realms equivalents of Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny (non-existence beings). This pisses God off so bad that instead of reconsidering his campaign style as any reasonable human would do, he kills EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING except for those 8 people and 2 of each "kind" of animal. A bit drastic, and a bit immoral if you ask me. So, nope I still have the free-will to worship what I want ... even if God makes his appearance.
Now if you can come up with such problems in the EVIDENCE concerning Napoleon's existence then I will doubt his existence too. But I doubt that you can.
Unfortunately nothing that withstands scrutiny.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Are you trying to tell me that Paul Bunyan doesn't exist? ;'(
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
First off they have found a print in a mountain the shape of an ark, the same exact measurements as the ark in the bible. Coincidnece? hmmm. I don't think so. And Zues has nothing to do with the ONE and ONLY God!! Zues is not a documentation but simply a fantasy story written. same with the oddessy. That's like saying harry potter is real. Yes I do like reading those books, it's interesting, but nothing more than that. That's exactly what I'm saying, I'm not saying that Napolean didn't exist, there is evidence yes, but like I said before there is also evidence that Christ came and that God exists! So what's the difference? I'm not being judgemental or anything, I just want you to give me a clear justification on why you think the way you do. I'm interested. i dont have a problem with athiest or any other religion. I understand that that is just what you believe and that's okay.
What, exactly, is this evidence? And can you provide links?
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
Here is a link with a picture to show you the evidence. I actually did not read this site until just now, but instead I watch CNN and things like and had seen this on there a few years ago. (Ararat is the name they call it now but it was named by moses rrt way back in the day)
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm
Ummm. It's a rock... I guess it looks sort of boatish... Once again, they just say THIS IS TRUE. They don't provide any evidence that their findings are even real? Why should I believe them? And how on Earth would Noah have gotten his hands on complex metal alloys?
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
When replying to a post you need to click on the "reply". That way your post is indented and placed below the post you are replying to. It makes it easier to find and read.
Neither do I. I think it is fraud. Ron Wyatt was notorious for doing that type of thing. Even other Christians have noted that
(1) But there is no God, so there can't be a "ONE and ONLY God!!".
(2) Your argument was that we should believe in God because we have documents concerning God. We have documents concerning Zeus.
Erm ... no. Zeus was the primary God of the Greeks. They were as serious about him as you are about your God. In fact there is a group that is still serious about him
This is a picture of the Temple of the Olympian Zeus.
(1) Harry Potter has always been fiction. Zeus, on the other hand has been considered as real as your God.
(2) The point was there is evidence that Napoleon existed that withstands scrutiny. There is no evidence that God existed that withstands scrutiny.
The bible is no more believable than is Homer's Iliad or the Oddessey. There is no evidence that there is a supernatural realm. So far there is no phenomenon open to investigation that hasn't shown clear signs of obeying natural law. That means that it works without any input from God. When we look for signs of God in places where people like you claim we can't help but find it (supposed design in the universe, intercessory prayer, etc) we don't find it.
That is totally unlike the evidence for Napoleon. If we had sincere doubts that Napoleon existed we could exhume his tomb. We could do DNA and compare it to putative descendants. We can find documents that he himself has written or signed. We can look at documents describing his actions by contemporaries of Napoleon.
But to be fair, I think the biggest reason we do not doubt that Napoleon existed is because there is no reason to doubt it. God on the other hand there is a lot of reason to doubt. Emperors are humans without any supernatural powers. We see those things around us all the time. God, on the other hand, is invisible; seems to intentionally avoid detection; is capable of suspending natural law at a whim; and acts in bizarre ways that from our 21st Century perspective does not seem to be a rational way to accomplish his apparent goals (the whole idea of using Prophets comes to mind for me. Why didn't he use some type of broadband technology to directly get his message to everyone? Anybody could have claimed to be a prophet and judging from all the false prophets in the bible, they evidently did. How was a person supposed to tell who was a false prophet and who wasn't? The bible says that the way to tell is that the prophecies of false prophets wont come true ... but Christians still are claiming that Daniel's prophecies are valid and it has been 2500 years since it is claimed that he made them! If you have to wait that long before you can tell the prophet was false then that technique is pretty much useless, now isn't it?).
(3) As to Jesus' existence. There are people who deny his existence (see here and here for some of the better arguments to that effect). But I am not one of them. I believe it is more likely than not that an historical Jesus existed. But I certainly don't believe everything the bible has to say about Jesus. I have a project (one of many) in which I am coalescing all the ancient pericopes of Jesus (both canonical and non-canonical) and arranging them as best I can in chronilogical order. I have done several so far. By putting them in columns one can easily see the contradictions and one can see that one author copied from another oftentimes changing details to suit the author's purpose. To me this says that the bible is the work solely of men with their own agendas and NOT of God. The effect is quite strong. In the distant future when I finish the project I plan to do a series of blogs detailing the findings.
(1) I think I did give a pretty clear justification in the first post. You just didn't accept it. I have expounded a bit here, but if you didn't get in the first post I doubt this will help you that much, since I have allowed myself to ramble. Too bad ... but that is the way of life.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Sorry this is the first time for me doing this.
And I do agree with you that the bible has possibly (more likely than not) been tampered with. I do know that in the NIV version, there is at least 1 verse takin out and at least 1 verse put in. I know that for a fact. I have the New King Jame's version which I'm sure that there is some tampering with this version as well, but I'm also sure that there is less of it. That is interesting and I would like to know the direct translations from the original language. But that is something that I doubt I will ever find. And I don't take all versus literally, and I do believe that the Old Testimont is just that. Just something you can learn from-it's a thing of the past, not how we're supposed to be living now. But I believe that the new testimont is something to live by. It's a guide. That's the way I see it. I do believe in God and jesus, but human's want things to fit and form to their lives (therefore the tampering with the Bible). They don't want to have to change something about themselves (the bad things that is).
Apparently you didn't read the entire thing. The archeologists found the petrified wood, metal, and beams, that fit the shape of the ark and the exact measurements. How do you explain that? Plus the artifact of what Noah had made with HIS name engraved on it. You can not tell me that this is not evidence when it has been proven and accepted by the governments who own this property to be evidence. That's like saying that all the evidence pointing to Napolean's existance is not plausible enough. It's the same difference! And as far as metal goes, metal has been around for many years, even way back in the ancient days, how do you think they made armor?
You ask:
Why should I believe them?
The same reason why you believe Napolean existed-it's only because of documentation and evidence that we know he was real-same with God and Noah's ark.
eh
noah engraved his name, and we found that? Yet it isn't be broadcasted on mainstream new or in churches? I'll believe that when it is known to everybody, if what you say is true, then it is world changing and people are hiding it...uh sounds fishy to me.
How was this name displayed? I was unaware that Noah would be able to write, but if his name is written in English, it's very clearly a fraud, since English just... didn't exist back then. But what language did? Probably a language that is now dead today...
Edit: I went back and read what it said... And I'm assuming this is the part you're referring to:
Read it through again. The name 'Noah' was put on there by people long after the rock was thought to be THE ark. Now, I'm curious about what ancients they are talking about, and how ancient they're talking about, as the name "Noah" (which is just a shortened transliteration of the Hebrew name) is known to the Hebrew people, and later the Christians and (I assume) the Muslims. Everyone else knew the man by a different name... Utnapishtim, for example. So... depending on the time period we're talking about....
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
I think I'd trust DB's theory on this one.
Yeah, sure, they found metal beams...
Sure they found his name...
"You can not tell me that this is not evidence when it has been proven and accepted by the governments who own this property to be evidence."
Link. Preferably the government's link.
"That's like saying that all the evidence pointing to Napolean's existance is not plausible enough."
It's plenty plausible. Much more so than this whole Ark thing.
"And as far as metal goes, metal has been around for many years, even way back in the ancient days, how do you think they made armor?"
Yes, I know metal was around for a long time, in fact, it predates humanity. My question is how Noah made metal beams out of aluminum in, what, the bronze age?
"The same reason why you believe Napolean existed-it's only because of documentation and evidence that we know he was real-same with God and Noah's ark."
The more incredible the event, the more evidence needed. Napoleon, a much less incredible event, has a ton more credible evidence. Noah's Ark has this highly doubtful piece of evidence.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
Easy...this "find" was a fraud...a hoax...a con...a lie. The exposure of this fakery has been well documented, which you would have known if you had followed DB's link and seen the rebuttals that christian researchers from the legitimate scientific community, many of whom are from this guy's own denomination, have published.
percivale
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Is it really? Are you for sure? I had watched the news not even a year ago, talking about this claim. I know that finding the whole tomb of Christ was considered a hoax. And on top of that, these findings of the ark has been proven and approved by the government. (Turkish government....I dont know about our government, but I'm sure they approve too seeing as how it was broadcasted on T.V.)
...this fraud is well documented. Go to the link that was provided to you and read the evidence.
percivale
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
First off Noah is in quotations. Yes Noah is the english translation, but that doesn't mean that the english translation was engraved. It could have been the hebrew name. I'm not 100% sure, but sense it's on the link in quotations, I'm assuming that the english translation is not on it.
There has been more than one archeaolgist on that mountain, and more researchers are planning on going back to it to investigate further.
So what you're saying is that our government conned us? Tricked us? Same with the turks?
Hebrew didn't exist in Noah's time. Noah was I think Samarian or Assyrian.
Really, do provide who the other archeologist is and the researchers. You do know that Turkey has a strict no entry policy to Mt. Ararat because of hostile peoples and it is deemed a governmental area since it is highly contended between muslims and christians. Also if this was on CNN, can you give me a link, i'd like to see it.
You want to tell people what youe believe in and what you label yourself as. So ill do the same. I am a Nihilist. An Atheist. An Anarchist. But lets stick to the religious aspect of it all. For you its apprently difficult to understand how someone cannot believe in God. especially your Christian God. 1.) For you the Universe cannot come from nothing, for you the universe has to have come from something that created it, your God, so I ask you, who created your God? If God just existed than why is it impossible to believe that the Universe just existed? 2.) God is supposed to be infinite. Now if God was a physical manifestation then he can't be infinite because no physical being can be infinite. You say that he exist within us as a spirit or within a persons faith. This means that God is a figment of your own imagination. 3) The argument that you made about their being a documentation of God and a documentation of Napoleon proving God's existence has to be one of the dumbest things I have heard, (or in this case read,) in a long time. Napoleon applies to the laws of Nature. Napoleon was a person, a human being, a physical being. we are human beings. so the possibility of their having been a Napoleon Bonaparte are very high. On the other hand An infinite non physical being is not as likely to have or continue on being. Bear in mind every religious text has been written by a person. or a group of people. People are dumb. people lie, people make stories up, people are crazy. So because 2'000 years ago a man named john or Luke claimed to have seen something magical and wrote it down, doesnt mean it actually happened. 4) to say a single celled organism cannot become a multicellular organism is also a very retarded statement. Its called evolution, wether you want to believe in it or not. You my dear friend are not very intelligent, go open a book a read. Infact read lots of books and stop listening to the retarded clergy at your church or synogogue or wherever you go. Once again though, you have every right to have your own opinion. Even if it is wrong.
Jesus was an actual human being! A physical being, until the romans (I believe) murdered him. (which was supposed to happen so we don't rot in our own sins)
That was the point I was trying to make- two physical beings, recorded in history!
I also don't go to church. (I used to, but it has been a long time, because I don't agree with everything) I read and learn for myself. If someone makes a claim or statement that I'm suspicious of, then I go and research it for myself. You have to pick and choose what you believe in and who you trust. (I love reading books, but thanks for the advice)
Talking from a factual point of view, evolution is something I defintely don't 100% believe in. I do believe animals and humans can adapt to their surroundings, but I don't believe we came from an organism. Did all the animals come from that one organism too? These "facts" don't add up to me.
And as far as saying someone's opinion is wrong is just plain stupid. Opinions can never be wrong; facts can.
"Opinions can never be wrong"
Yes they can. I can have the opinion that you are a small blue flamingo orbiting Mars. This would be an opinion. It would also, I imagine, be untrue.
Also, facts cannot be wrong. A person can state something as factual and that could be wrong, but a fact is a fact, whether or not we know of it. Calling something a fact does not make it so. A fact is something that is true and, therefore, cannot be wrong.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
There is some actual, objective evidence that the mythological character called "Jesus" was also a real person. Howerver, there is a difference between the accounts of this figure which can legitimately called "historical," and the myths which have sprung up around that figure which cannot be similarly defended. The "bible" is a rather ambiguous source that contains an arbitrary collection of both historical and mythological tales.
This blending of history and myth is completely typical among religious cults that have often arisen around powerful social and poltical figures after their death in the ancient world. Another good example is the figure of Heracles (Hercules). We know that Heracles was a real, historical person in Greek history. We also know that a cult worhipping Hercules sprang up after his death, and that most of the obviously mythological tales associated with were invented by that cult.
If we used the reasoning that you offer for believing in "God" and "Jesus" in the bible, we should also believe that Hercules was actually the son of the "god" Zeus, that he actually fought and defeated a giant, three-headed dog in the underworld, and that he also fought and defeated a giant beast (the Hydra) whose heads grew back when you cut them off with a sword.
The bible certainly contains references to many characters and events that were historical, but it also contains claims that a reasonable person could only assume to be mythological inventions, and for which in fact there is no evidence at all that would confirm that they really happened.
Really? Like what? Can you provide even ONE credible, non-mythological primary source to that effect? Can you provide a specific, objective example of this "evidence?"
TTFN,
Blackout
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Yes, I've changed my username from "percivale" to "Blackout." Go here if you want to know why.
We already are aliens, lol, the thing is, we need a long way to go before we can (all) shift our awareness around this matter. To live short lives like we do filled with confusion is the reason why most don’t capture what we are (really) all about, lol.
To grow up in a love and hate environment, our thoughts and emotions swing from one side to the other making us to get (brain)stuck after some time. If this wouldn’t be the case we would live way longer.
Not to forget our brain is not even triggered to work the way it should, we actually don’t even use our brains functions properly, lol.
To dwell amongst a population of which most are looking up at the sky in doubt and fear is not helping us to move any faster either.
We are all light, sadly enough we fear ourselves, so we are thought to need a guide to show us the way! Lol, It seems there is something very wrong with this guidance, but then again, humans are like salmon, things will shift one way or another, what we are experiencing now will one fine day be recalled like our time of human adolescence.
The silly part is that we could all be enjoying yourselves, but no, just like kids, people only seem to (shift) understand throughout experience.
Experience being the (physical) reason why we are here in the first place!
I guess we are the most interesting aliens around, lol
It’s kind of funny many think we are born in this life, education can bring some knowledge about many things, but it does not make (any any) smarter than the one living in a remote rainforest.
Those persons live a same life which is in the now, meaning that they lack the concept of time, so they get filled with an essence many amongst us have lost or willingly ignore to reach for.
Quite amazing to see how people become experts in shorting up their own life, all pushing one another aside on the fast lane until they bang their faces against their own build wall of emotional emptiness!
How sad an experience is that?
I almost forgot,
http://www.loveearth.com/uk/film/