So I've written a lot about Jesus lately. I still don't believe that he is the son of god or the messiah. But we'll delve deeper into him a little.
First off, from more readings I believe that Jesus could be considered worldwide as a traveling prophet. Now some people believe that he couldn't have learned anything because he was a carpenter's son. Jesus I still think was probably a genius who knew a lot about the law and religion. Because he shows up in many different religions. But for the Jewish people, he was just another false messiah like the many others in the area at that time.
For those of you who say, well Jesus is in the Bible and the Bible is infalliable. Possibly your right, but the stories of Jesus were passed down orally, just like the stories in all religions. Over time stories will become distorted, so I believe that the Bible is falliable, because Jesus's story wasn't written down until years after his death. Also there are similarities between Jesus and the pagan god-men like Mithras, Attis and Osiris-Dionysus. But when you look at the stories some of them didn't change and sound like Jesus until after the Gospels were written. However, so of them are biased and some are not. So you can only take them as you see fit.
The whole thing with Jesus rising from the dead being false is that in all religions, the number 3 is a lucky/signifigant number. Sure the Bible says he rose from the dead, but that's after years of oral stories.
The interesting thing about Jesus is that he shows up in Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, Bahá'í, Mandaean, Mormonism, and Jehovah Witnesses. While also in the New Age religious movement. There is no denying that Jesus was a real person, what there is denying is that he was the son of God, he more likely was a prophet and a teacher. Yet he was a genius, i believe. He then used everything he had learned to mislead people into believe he was something that he wasn't.
I agree with Thomas Jefferson that Jesus was, "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man." He should be followed, not as a religion but as a man who far exceeded other men in knowledge and influence, who's morals should be followed.
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I think there definitely is the ability to deny the idea that Jesus even existed. No historians of the time make mention to him, even Josephus writings about a Jesus turned out to be a fraud. Denying that Jesus even existed is entirely plausible.
`lacey
There are no beautiful surfaces without terrible depth..
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I woner if you're familiar with C.S. Lewis's Trilemma? If Jesus truly existed, and if the Bible gives a historical account (whether or not spiritually accurate) then Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. That leaves three options:
1. He was lying and is a liar.
2. He truly believed it, but was wrong, and insane.
3. He truly believed it, and was right, so is the Son of God.
That is, Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. There isn't a fourth, "great teacher" possibility.
Just something to think about.
-El Sugten
I know about C.S. Lewis's Trilemma. The Bible isn't historically accurate or at least not completely. These were stories passed down orally for awhile. It's possible that what Jesus said could have been confused or made up.
Please show me where Jesus said he was the Son of God? I'd like to see the source.
what do you want? The bible verse where he says "I am the way, the truth and the light?" Or "Abba, why have you forsaken me?" Which Abba literally means Daddy. We call God Father, he is our creator not our flesh. Daddy is such a personal reference to God. No one had called him Abba but Jesus. Or how about when he said, "And the Father himself, who sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." Or all of these:
"You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."
"I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser."
Or this!!
'I am the Son of God"
john 15:1
john 8:23
john 5:37
JOHN 10:36
john 14:6
mark 15:34
And this same progeny of evils comes from our debate, from our dissension; We are their parents and original. -- A Midsummer Night's Dream Act II, Scene I, Lines 115-117
All we have is the word of the Bible. Which once again could have been distorted for the apostles own views and agendas.
No where in historical texts about Jesus does it mention any of these sayings, only in the Bible does it.
Biblically, its fairly prevalent throughout the Gospels. Here are two:
John 10:36-38:
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." [emphasis mine]
John 10:30:
I and the Father are one.
As for the oral passage of the stories, the Gospels were all written by 100 AD, so within one generation of Jesus' death, and the Synoptics demonstrate such similarities that its unlikely the stories were particularly scrambled.
Of course, as you may have guessed, my paradigm is slightly different than yours, so this should be an interesting discussion. =).
I think you can be a lunatic and still be a great teacher (ever see the movie "A Beautiful Mind"? The guy was a schitzophrenic, but won the Nobel Prize in Economics and was a teacher at Princeton). I find it hard for a liar to be a good teacher, since there has to be a certain amount of honesty and truth when teaching.
In that sense, I think that if Jesus wasn't actually the Son of God, then he was a lunatic.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
The Bible is not oral stories just written down. They are eye-witness accounts. Especially Mathew Mark Luke and John.
Now Jesus being a prophet... all religions BUT Christianity say so. And Christianity was a sect of Jeudaism. Second, just because it is hard to comprehend doesn't mean that he didn't rise from the dead. He was not just a prophet, he was 100% man and 100% God. No not 200% to make him half and half. He was 100% man and God. It's confusing I know. It really is. But that's not the point.
Christianity was the first monotheistic religion. The story of Jesus coming to save us has been since we were created. Jews don't want to believe that he is the son of God because they don't believe he rose again, and they killed him. So why does only one religion, Christianity, say he was all that he is? And why is Christianity the BIGGEST religion with the most copies of the Bible in the most translations?
And this same progeny of evils comes from our debate, from our dissension; We are their parents and original. -- A Midsummer Night's Dream Act II, Scene I, Lines 115-117
As far as I know, Judaism doesn't accept Jesus as a prophet.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
as far as you know. Have you studied it? Is your dad a pastor who has literally hundreds of books on other religions? No? I have studied it and my dad is a pastor. Jews, the majority of them, see Jesus as a prophet, just a man. There are, a few sects, that have branched off and are more like Christianity and they think Jesus was the son of man. But those sects are considered a Christian sect because they do believe Jesus was the son of God.
And this same progeny of evils comes from our debate, from our dissension; We are their parents and original. -- A Midsummer Night's Dream Act II, Scene I, Lines 115-117
I've studied it and I'm not a pastor. You fail to see that I was raised in a Christian home. I've studied many religions. So what can your father tell me about Asturu? Probably nothing. How much do you know about other religions? How many of those books your father has read are written by Christians? I'm sure it's a pretty biased library.
no, he has atheist books too. And he probably could.
And this same progeny of evils comes from our debate, from our dissension; We are their parents and original. -- A Midsummer Night's Dream Act II, Scene I, Lines 115-117
Not as many as nonatheist. And are you catergoizing every religion that doesn't believe in your God, as atheist?
I was Jewish. As far as I know is pretty good in this case.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
Um, no. I have studied Judaism. And the majority of Jews do not see Jesus as a prophet. They see him as just another man that was claiming to be the messiah. And the idea of the messiah is very different in Judaism than it is in Christianity. The messiah in Judaism is JUST a man. A very gifted man, but just a man all the same.
If you'd care to provide information where Orthodox Jews (not Messianic Jews, but perhaps Reform Jews) see Jesus as a prophet, I'd be more inclined to believe that you've actually studied the religion.
~C
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From this definition, the believers in Judaism are just like me. Jesus was as messiah. A gifted man. But only a man.
As I understand it, the messiah is supposed to bring total world peace (hasn't happened), and will be a sort of leader of the world. I haven't studied enough of the text to tell you more, but that's what I remember off the top of my head. Jesus was a gifted man, and certainly a rabbi, but Jews don't consider him the messiah. They're still praying that he comes.
~C
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My bad, I read that wrong. Jesus did not bring peace, he brought death, thus he cannot be a messiah. Christians just twisted it around it seems.
Jesus was a rabbi, and gifted man, possibly a philosopher since he shows up in so many different religions.
He brings death? What death did he bring?
And this same progeny of evils comes from our debate, from our dissension; We are their parents and original. -- A Midsummer Night's Dream Act II, Scene I, Lines 115-117
I never said he brings it, he brought it. He never brought peace, he accidently started a small revolution agaisnt the Romans, thus they crucified him for being the leader. So Jesus was not a messiah.
Actually, that's the Anti-Christ. The peace treaty between Israel and the nations surrounding it, or "world peace" are supposed to mark the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period at the Apocalypse. (This is, at least, according to the Christian Bible. The debate has started to confuse me on whether or not you're going by Christian or Jewish beliefs.)
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
No, thats the messiah. The Anti-Christ is a Christian belief, not a Jewish, at least as far as I know. The messiah in the Jewish faith, brings peace, thus why Jesus was not the messiah.
Like I said, I kind of got lost as to which belief was being talked about when.
That does go to show, however, the vast differences between the ideas of who the real messiah is in the two religions. It'd be interesting to see what happens if/when the messiah/anti-Christ does appear and what happens during that time.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Indeed, because the messiah of the OT sounds like the antichrist almost.
"The Bible is not oral stories just written down. They are eye-witness accounts. Especially Mathew Mark Luke and John."
Eye-witness accounts written down 20 to 30 years after Jesus supposedly ascended into heaven. Plenty of time to change your story a little to your advantage.
"Now Jesus being a prophet... all religions BUT Christianity say so. And Christianity was a sect of Jeudaism. Second, just because it is hard to comprehend doesn't mean that he didn't rise from the dead. He was not just a prophet, he was 100% man and 100% God. No not 200% to make him half and half. He was 100% man and God. It's confusing I know. It really is. But that's not the point."
Christianity was not a sect of Judaism. And how do you explain Jesus being in other ancient texts from different religions? Judaism didn't believe he was God incarnate, only Christians believe that. You have no proof besides what was written, that he was both God and Man. It's really not that hard to wrap your mind around really. The Egyptians have a story about their God coming down as a mortal too. Who is to say that's not true?
"Christianity was the first monotheistic religion. The story of Jesus coming to save us has been since we were created. Jews don't want to believe that he is the son of God because they don't believe he rose again, and they killed him. So why does only one religion, Christianity, say he was all that he is? And why is Christianity the BIGGEST religion with the most copies of the Bible in the most translations?"
Actually one of the first monotheistic religion was Judaism. So were some Egyptian beliefs, Hindu beliefs and Zoroastrianism.
The reason Christianity is the only oe that says Jesus is all this is because without it, they would be just like any other religion. It's to make themselves standout. It's called marketing.
Just because Christianity is the biggest religion with the most holy book sold in the most translation doesn't mean it's the right religion. Second the brutal push by Christians in the early Church to make everyone who they deemed heathen, is why there is Christianity everywhere. The church forced it on the people. So much for a loving group of people. Thirdly, the Bible is given away to millions of people every year. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be as many in circulation.
Judaism pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years, and Zoroastrianism was the first of the monotheistic religions.
As for the hypostatic union of Christ, thats a bit beyond where we are now. I think SoD (if I may presume to abbreviate) understands that, he just questions it.
-El Sugten
Yes, I understand the hypostatic union, but question it. I'm glad someone realized that thats what I am doing. Abbreviate away if you like, lol.
I question also do you and Queen_Tatiana follow the Apollinaris of Laodicea idea of hypostatic union or the idea that Theodore of Mopsuestia put forth?
I suspect a trick question, for my answer must be at once neither, and both.
They both had right ideas that were combined into the standard definition, at the Chalcedon. Apollinaris' idea of a partially human nature consisting only of logos and lacking a soul cannot be true, and Theodore posited two unions.
-El Sugten
Hmm, I just realized that, that is kinda a trick question. What I find funny is that men decided that Jesus was the Son of God, not God.
He WAS God AND God's son.
And this same progeny of evils comes from our debate, from our dissension; We are their parents and original. -- A Midsummer Night's Dream Act II, Scene I, Lines 115-117
And men also decided that Jesus was God. You are avoiding the question on what your view is of hypostatic union.
I think I sort of get the hypostatic union, nut I'm not positive. Could someone please explain.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
Look it up on wikipedia. I first learned of it yesterday, lol. I'm still trying to understand it completely too.
Christianity was the first monotheistic religion.
Nope. The Egyptians have that one down. They believed at one point that all gods were Atum. Very much like the Christian idea of the trinity. And Judaism, which comes many MANY years before Christianity, was also monotheistic.
Jews don't want to believe that he is the son of God because they don't believe he rose again, and they killed him.
Or, you know, he didn't fulfill the prophecies for the messiah. And he was one of many claiming the end of the world was near. And the Romans were the ones that actually hung him on the cross. The Jews would've just stoned him.
And why is Christianity the BIGGEST religion with the most copies of the Bible in the most translations?
Might have something to do with the fact that Christianity is a religion that actively seeks converts, and has a bad history of threatening death to those that didn't convert. You know, the Inquisition, the missionary movements in much of Latin America... And the fact that the Roman church was in control of pretty much all of Europe during the Middle Ages, and made sure that people couldn't become educated, and basically filtered their political agenda down to the masses. After all that, it's really not hard to see why Christianity is the largest religion. But Islam is the fasted growing now. How do you explain that?
~C
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"And the Romans were the ones that actually hung him on the cross. The Jews would've just stoned him. "
I just have to say that those centences are brilliant.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
The Jews might not have hung him, but they were the ones who said, "Kill Jesus, let Barabbas go!"
And this same progeny of evils comes from our debate, from our dissension; We are their parents and original. -- A Midsummer Night's Dream Act II, Scene I, Lines 115-117
Yeah, there's a lot of historical evidence supporting that nice little hate message. Like Mvenus said, if the Jews had really taken offense at Jesus they would have stoned him. I don't see why they would have considering all the tons of people who thought or claimed for some other reason that they were the messiah.
Do you really think that the Romans would have been willing to release a murderer? Even if the Romans were willing to do that, do you think the Jews would have taken him over Christ? He would have put up a bigger fight while having stones hurled at him.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
The Jews did try stoning Jesus, but he hid from the stonings.
Smart guy
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
This shows that the Jews wanted him dead. They didn't kill him. The Romans did because he was instilling rebellion against the Roman Empire.
And because Judas sold Jesus out because Judas knew that Jesus was just a messiah, or gifted man, but that Jesus was falsly claiming to be the Son of God.
*rubs temples* You guys make my head hurt. You're all too smart for me lol. Not gonna lie, I got lost about halfway through when I was reading these comments. Seems to me like you're trying to complicate something that's really quite simple. I'm glad you're not denying the outright existence of Jesus. Truth is, we have HUNDREDS of eyewitness accounts concerning His life. According to a Mr. Klusendorf, who tours for the Pro-Life movement, there are 1500+ of them. We only have 50-500 on Alexander the Great; how do we know he did what they say he did?
And as to your comment about how these eyewitness accounts had plenty of time to twist their stories, SoD, that's where that whole "faith" thing comes in. I'm too in love with my God, my Savior, and my religion to stop now. I like thinking I'm gonna go to heaven because the God of Heaven and Earth sent His only Son to save me. Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic. Maybe I'm an idiot. But I'll be an idiot and live happily, while you wander through the darkness not trusting anything for sure. I know you've been hurt, I'm sure you've been betrayed and lost trust. But sometimes you just have to take a leap. Even if you fall, at least you'll have gotten off the ground for a little bit.
I'm still praying for you.
~WriterNut~
Can you provide a source to this Klusendorf you speak of? I've never heard of so many eyewitness accounts, and I'm skeptical by nature.
~C
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I have yet to see really any proof other than the Bible and other holy writings from various religion that Jesus was real. I've yet to see any actual eyewitness accounts, but I don't rule out Jesus not existing.
Faith is believing without reason. I have no time to believe without reason or logic. Hence why I am a deist/pagan.
I do not wander through the darkness. I trust there is a god in a deistic sense, but not the contraditing god of the Bible. However I do not need a god to give purpose to my life, I give purpose to my life. Thats what make existenialism so great. Keep your prayers to yourself please.
Josh
"Need something to believe in but nothing comes close."
"Doubt I'll be an angel when I die."
I'm perfectly happy with my life. I don't need a god to give me a purpose.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil