What happened? does anyone remember a time when it wasnt normal for fifteen year olds to get drunk and go nuts? why is it happening? is society now so morally bankrupt that kids cant actually make the right choice, that adults turn a blind eye to all the goings on? does anybody have any idea how we can fix this? i hope someone out there can give me an idea, or at least spread one around somewhere. if we dont stop this now were gonna have kids with twelve year old moms and fourty year old dads. i mean really, just the other day i saw some middle school kid flip off a bus of preschoolers, what is that? who is responsible for all this? is it all our faults? what can we do to stop it? maybe if we could actually make them listen we could try to set them straight. but what about the adults? and what if the kids dont listen? theres got to be a way to convince them all not to do drugs, or drink, or have sex. but how do we go about doing it? there has to be a way! isnt there at least anything telling them to NOT do all of this? whats causing this problem? how can we fix it? anybody got any ideas?
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I believe you're making a few incorrect assumptions here. First, that society, functioning as a normative base for individuals, has the sort of power you are talking about. The minor transgressions you are talking about, such as flipping off a bus full of pre-schoolers, are not punished by laws, they simply break unspoken cultural rules. There is a sharp divide between the authority of a government and the cultural foundation it is built on when it comes to stepping outside the social norm. A governmental edict will seek to keep the society functioning smoothly, while a social norm will produce a social punishmentin order to shape the individual back into the cultural curve. So if things like 'morals' are to change on a grand scale, you have to have a fundamental change to the culture, child rearing practices and home environments. None are likely too happy and it is not particularly healthy to hope that they do.
If there were not deviations from the 'moral' as you describe, I would be very worried for our society. Americans throughout history have rebelled against social norms and laws and catalyzed positive change in the process. The morals of a society are constantly evolving to keep pace with changes in the world and striving to enforce a static set of explicit morals is a good way to anger lots of people. Had a system like this succeeded in the 1960's, we never would have had the Civil Rights Movement.
As for the youth, it is really the responsibility of parents and teachers to show them what is and is not proper. But at the same time, we have to accept that not everyone's morals are the same in our country. Despite the puritanical roots of our nation, there are hundreds of different cultures represented and unique subcultures have sprung up all around the continent since our founding. The most constructive attitude here is to let parents take care of morals as well as punishments,allow teachers to tell kids what the consequences of their acitons will be and then let them decide what to do for themselves. Hopefully our society is upright enough that they'll choose to live a moral life.
What's causing this is parents not spending enough time with their children, and the turning away of values and morals that you learn in a set religion. I'm not saying people need to be Christian, but if you follow the times, when religions have been at a low, reckless and amoral behavior in children becomes common. Plus, these kids just need to get their butts spanked and be punished.
MommaTrish - mom of 2 boys and a bump
Values and morals are important with or without a connection to a specific religion. Religious morals can be easily rejected if religion is rejected, but intellectual and societally based morals have a grounding in the real world that can be demonstrated and are difficult to deny. Every single Christian moral can be denied by saying, "God does not exist," because every single moral springs from God's authority to offer eternal punishment or reward. Not true with intellectual morals, which may change or be altered over time, but do not rely on belief in a mystical being.
Times of great religious power more often lead to things like The Crusades or The Witch Trials than obedient children and great moral order. Religion and religious belief are naturally exclusionary, and, given more power, it tends to become more so. The religious power of England led to the founding of America.
Anyway, give me an actual example with actual facts, to back up the idea that children were more obedient during periods of strong religious influence in any country with any religion. You are simply expanding your bias towards religious values with absolutely no evidence in the real world. You just assume that because your morals and values are firmly placed in a specific religion that strong religious influence would naturally lead to strong moral influence. This is wrong. Strong moral/cultural influence leads to strong morals and cultural homogeneity. The power of religion in society or in the home can either harm or hinder those goals.
A child who reacts poorly to the kind of black and white, authoritarian morals of his home religion is likely to act out or reject all morals. A home that acknowledges a child's rejection of religion but still instills positive morals will end up with a better adjusted child. On the other hand if a child takes immediately to a religion and its morals things will probably go just fine, unless the brand of religion taught in the home is culturally unacceptable.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memento mori, mahalo.
"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real-estate above principles."
in recent history: the 20s, 60s, and 70s. open a history book. and no, i'm not saying all people need to be blanketed with one religion, to each his own, and even those who say they believe in nothing still believe something because they believe there is nothing. even an idea of what you believe or feel could be construed as a religion and most times there are a list of morals/values. and having something to follow is better than having nothing, religion or morals wise.
MommaTrish - mom of 2 boys and a bump
Thank you for that elaborate and fact filled response. What exactly about those decades supports your point? Be specific. Just listing time periods at me isn't particularly convincing.
Atheism is not a religion. It is a spiritual view. Religion is, by definition, an ORGANIZATION with standardized spiritual views. Having moral views and values does not constitute having a religion. Your definition of religion is so broad as to make the word completely meaningless.
Having no morals would be amoral, which I wasn't promoting at all.
Promoting religion as a source for moral order is pointless because the morals of one religion don't line up with those of others. This entire discussion of morals is because people behave differently than we feel they should morally. Now, many people behave immorally out of a lack of moral guidance, but many also behave immorally because their moral guidance is different from our moral guidance. While they are acting perfectly morally according to their religion, your religion says whatever they are doing is wrong.
"To each their own," is the system we have now, and it seems that it isn't meeting your standards for producing moral, obedient children.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memento mori, mahalo.
"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real-estate above principles."
It's so cute how you think there was a time when 15 year olds didn't drink, or have sex. What specific point in history are you thinking of when everything was better and kids didn't drink or get each other pregnant on occasion? There wasn't one. Stop yearning for some kind of ignorant Utopian past where every child obeyed their parents and respected everything around them.
Look around and offer some solutions, or at least get a real grasp on the problem. I'll give you a hint, it isn't, "Why is everything so much worse now than it was then?"
Res ipsa loquitur.
memento mori, mahalo.
"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real-estate above principles."
I just graduated from high school. I've made stupid decisions, but have learned from them...and to this day I find a lot of what my peers do annoying. In my class alone, eight girls had babies. Plenty dropped out, many were arrested, and I don't live in a large city. I don't want to sound condescending but from what I have seen, I blame the parents.
My parents aren't perfect, they missed plenty of signs that I was doing things I wasn't suppose to be doing. I've lied to them, but in the end I believe my guilt afterwards, my choice to say no, and my ability to learn from my experiences was due to their proper guidance. Nowadays, I have seen firsthand parents giving their teens the alcohol to party, and being proud to flaunt that. Or knowing their kids are off doing things they shouldn't and not doing much about it. Or when they are caught, they are not consistent with punishment. Once we know we can walk all over you, we will do it. Trust me. I think parents need to be more traditional with their parenting skills, and learn to say no. Sure we will hate you for that time you won't let us go out, but we made a mistake and we need to learn our lesson. Our respect for you will heighten. Stop trying to be the best friend, and be their parent.