Forgive the generalization in the title. What I really meant was: at some point in an individual's life, it's important that they understand the experience of some sort of psychedelic drug (entheogen, for the less aware). This can take the form of psilocybin ('magic' mushrooms), mescaline (peyote cactus), LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide), ayahuasca, or (if they're unable to get anything better) salvia divinorum. This experience makes for a more well-rounded individual with a better understanding of consciousness, perception, and the actual effects of drugs.
So, first the objections. Flashbacks are a myth. Going permanently insane is a myth. Going temporarily insane is also a myth. LSD doesn't lodge in your spine and force you to throw down your child 30 years later because you think it's actually a pile of snakes. Anti-drug propaganda would certainly love you to think that it does, however. A reasonably adjusted person won't experience a psychological break. A non-well adjusted could experience a fracture just as easily by being stuck in a traffic jam at an inopportune time. It's not the drug.
Now that the objections are out of the way and everyone reading is on the same page, we'll delve a little further into the positive effects of psychedelic drugs. In life, there are experiences and rites of passage which serve as brief points of illumination. The sneak-peak into consciousness which is provided by certain types of substances is one of these important moments. Don't let others fool you by claiming that 'the same experiences are accessible through meditation and religious rapture'. This is simply not the case. Yes, a psychedelic trip can feel 'divine', but it's absolutely not the same. If it were the same, the stimulus would be the same. Even then, it's hard to equate any two given experiences.
The important thing to remember about using drugs is SETTING, SETTING, SETTING. It's absolutely foolish and irresponsible to use a drug in a setting that is unfamiliar, uncomfortable, or around people who are immature. That said 'recreational' drug use is foolish. It's not 'to get high and chill with friends'. There must be a purpose for the full effect to be achieved. You wouldn't bring a telescope to a party, so why would you think that using a psychedelic substance at a party is any better of an idea? Both are tools of inquiry. The telescope shows your eyes what exists beyond normal perception, just as the drug shows you what exists behind normal perception.
The appropriate use of a psychedelic is in a relaxing environment. Prepare a selection of your favorite art: music, movies, paintings, sculptures, etc. Take a walk in nature. Whatever is chosen, do it with the intent of figuring out what exactly that stimulus is. How it is made, what it represents, what it means to you. This is a way to explore the external world with a different perception. It's also possible to explore the inner world through an attention to subtle effects within the body.
The person who can successfully navigate a psychedelic experience (both the highs and lows) is guaranteed to be in better control of their self (and thus, more adjusted as a person) than the one who is incapable. It's a different degree of mastery. Please, don't be swayed by the governmental studies where soldiers are given LSD and 'rendered incapable' of their normal combat duties. It should be immediately obvious what the flaw in this rationale is. Psychedelics are not something to be taken with the expectation of preservation of 'normal' functioning. It's specifically a different type of functioning.
Any new experiences creates a new form of awareness and understanding. Therein lies the value of the psychedelic experience. It's impossible to understand the experience without having it for yourself. It's not something that fits easily into the standard way of viewing oneself. However, it's a valid experience, so it needs to be dealt with in some way or another. Fear isn't the correct response. Respect is a better alternative. These substances have been used since time immemorial in religious ceremonies and as rites of passage. The positive benefits far outweigh the paranoid fear surrounding them.
While I've focused mostly on 'what to expect' and 'common misconceptions', there have also been sprinklings of 'why the experience is important'. This was written off the top of my head and in a single draft, so please excuse any errors. Just as with any other tool, there are correct and incorrect uses. In the hands of someone seeking and respecting the experience, a psychedelic trip can be very illuminating. It's your mind. It's not for others to tell you how to use it. You can't lose your mind, only open it to other ways of perception and understanding.
(I can't emphasize 'proper use' enough! And, yes, there is such a thing)
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You have actually made a dent in my hard-headed belief on how horrible and obnoxious drugs are. That's hard! I've broken up with boyfriends who did that stuff! That doesn't mean I'm going to go out and try them anytime soon, but I will always (ALWAYS!!) keep in mind what was written here when I'm ready to explore beyond my thinking comfort zone... Great job!
~::_:! Sauvons notre monde !:_::~
Whether it sounds callous or not, 'guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people'. The same basic principle applies to drug use: it's nothing inherently in the drug, but an existing condition in the user which causes things to go wrong. There is very little out there that's more obnoxious than someone on drugs who is already obnoxious without them! And at times it's hard to know the line between use and *ab*use. I'd say it all boils down to intent. If someone is getting high to dull the pain of existence, that path most likely is an indication of abuse.
Drugs can be used for discovery. Just like an explorer would leave reality behind to step foot on the moon, a different planet, a new cave, or somewhere else that not many or non have ever trodden, so can be the case with a 'psychonaut'. There's a lot of experience and perception and novel ways of using the neurological structure of the brain which simply falls into uncharted territory. It's no coincidence that many 'hackers' and people who push the limits of intended use for systems and devices are also users of drugs. It has to do with finding the unknown and discovering some new connection or use which had been previously unenvisioned.
It can be very frustrating when two people don't see eye to eye on such an issue. But such is the case in any endeavor. A patriot is ready to die for their country, an explorer is ready to die for discovery, and an entrepreneur is ready to 'die' for their startup. Someone who doesn't feel the same stands on the outside and perceives what can only be referred to as 'insanity'... or that which no 'sane' individual (as per the observer's definition of what constitutes sanity) would ever attempt.
Drug use is somewhat selfish. But this can't be surprising--the experience itself is only knowable through the 'self' which is experiencing it. All an observer sees is glossy eyes or a stare which is fixed on an object that only exists to that particular person. This mental reality is hard to peek into from the outside. And it's got to be frustrating to be the significant other of someone who holds a different position. In any case, you were probably right to break it off with them. It all depends upon the intention behind the use.
Most people just wanna get 'fucked up' for a little bit. In the right hands, however, the psychedelic can serve as an entry point into a world of pure thought and idea. With a little training, the explorer of the mind is able to see what lies beyond normal perception, and, hopefully, bring a little of it back for the benefit of making progress here in the world of 'normal' experience. It's hard to convey, and it may sound very esoteric, but there is a realm of experience which can be accessed through these substances that normal perception is simply unaware of.
I'm fine without psychedelic experiences but interesting post nonetheless.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/jloigman
Yes, of course you're fine without. People can live without skydiving, looking through a telescope, sequencing their own DNA, writing a computer program, falling in love, reading poetry, watching an opera, or many other forms of experience which don't involve absorbing nutrients vital to the functioning of the body. Although who knows. The brain and body are very complicated systems, so there may be certain ways to make it all run more smoothly which we haven't begun to explore.
It's an experience which can't be conveyed adequately with words, but can bring great benefits. But why learn calculus or any other subject? Certainly not much in life is 'necessary' in the most utilitarian sense.
Thanks for at least claiming that it was interesting :-)
Why can't we just learn from others' experiences? And I understand consciousness, perception, and the effects of drugs just by being in AP Psychology...
-Amanda-
please vote for me on brickfish
I would really appreciate it!
Amanda,
You're absolutely right that learning from the experience of others is possible. However, there's an inherent inability of language to convey actual experience. So, you may know *about* experience, but that's different than knowing (directly) that experience. Yes, AP Psychology will teach you about the physical characteristics of intoxication and various psychological 'symptoms', but that doesn't convey the weight of experience from the perspective of the one having that experience. It's a very intimate, psychologically unique phenomenon as it pulls directly from individual knowledge/awareness. Someone else's epiphany isn't the same as your own.
There is a major gap in knowing theory and knowing experience. But to each as they please :-) My whole point is simply that there are two components, and theory shouldn't be viewed as the only way of knowing.
Congrats on the AP :-)
I see what you're saying now.
-Amanda-
please vote for me on brickfish
I would really appreciate it!
Wait... that isn't some sort of AP Psychology mind game designed to throw someone off guard and ease tension, is it... ?
It's not paranoia if they're *really* out to get you ;-)
no...at least I didn't intend it to be that way...I'm not that into psychology lol
-Amanda-
please vote for me on brickfish
I would really appreciate it!
I completely agree. Personally, I regard experience much MUCH higher over anything you learn in a book. While you may know more about the technical aspects of how the mind works on Acid, if its your opinion vrs. someone who has tried it, i will value the latter persons opinion far above yours. Sure, you may know all the technical terms, but you don't really understand what they mean until those terms are applied to you.
The mind is a very VERY interesting thing, especially when you explore it with hallucinogens. They have a way of making you look at yourself and life in a very different way. I can honestly say though experience that the way i view the world now is completely different than if i went through life without tripping a single ball.
I wouldn't suggest these to everyone tho. There are certain people who just can't handle drugs, whether they are too closed-minded, too simple minded, or whatever the case. However, for those who are curious about traveling through the recesses of their mind, hallucinogens are definitely a great way to go. For those who don't to do a synthesized drug (IE Acid, i think its synthesized) Then your best bet would be Salvia, or shrooms, or peyote, as these are naturally occurring psychedelics that people have been using for years.
Great post man. I wrote a story that pertains to this (its basically an acid trip story, well part 1 of it) its pretty crappy, because i tend to loose track of my thoughts when i am writing, but if you are interested in reading it its here:
http://www.progressiveu.org/174230-my-18-hour-vacation-saga (yes shameless plug)
Shameless plugs are fine :-)
What can be done with the people who are too simple or fragile for drugs? They're a liability for the rest of society. 'Reality is a crutch for people who can't cope with drugs'.
What can be done is up for debate. Really, im my opinion the best thing to do is spread awareness of the dangers. What the government does is make it easy for people who are too simple minded by making drugs illegal. Prohibition is the lazy way of dealing with the problem of drug abuse.
that quote is so true
I propose a drug education program in every public school which emphasizes empirical education. Bring in weed and brownies one day. Mushrooms and a field trip the next. Amphetamines and power tools to cap it all off.
How will children know when they've had too much to drink if they're unfamiliar with the effects of alcohol?
As an added bonus, they get the effect of supervision and drugs of guaranteed purity and dosage. It's a win-win situation ;-)
...but seriously (for a second), prohibition is sinful. Silly wabbits.
Where did that quote come from. A friend of mine had it written on their wall.
That quote is attributed to Lily Tomlin. In case you're interested (and too lazy ;-): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lily_Tomlin
In case you're even more lazy: she was co-existential-detective with Dustin Hoffman in I (Heart) Huckabees.
I'm the laziest
I'd mail you your plaque, but... well, I'd probably have to go outside for that... and I'd probably have to actually order a plaque... maybe some other day
;-)
you should look up the blog about the procrastinators anonomous scociety, it is absolutly hillarious. Of course, you'd have to look it up, then scroll down the page t finish the whole thing... you know what just forget I mentioned it.
How devious.
But I either found the blog you're referring to or you jokingly referred to something that actually does exist. Either way, I can't believe they postponed the meeting :-(
i went through life without tripping a single ball.
I love that " without tripping a single ball" I was hsyterical
I remember my last trip on mushrooms was a major delve into my mind. I saw two things that dominates my memory of those six hours. First, was a beautiful scene where there were many tall standing trees in rows, it was a beautiful sunny day with those perfectly white clouds in the sky and the leaves of the trees sparkled like emeralds in the sunlight. Then the polar opposite(feeling wise) was chests of decrepant toys flowing by on either side of my mind when my eyes were closed.
I believe the former was an image of my hearts desire for contentment as that' what I felt on the moment of viewing. The latter I can only explain as a down fabricated by my mind to combat the up I was feeling. I felt the most alive as I've ever remebered feeling cowering for my sanity( i believed) inside my own head rushing through the river of thought unconciously brought forward by the shrooms.
How about you? Any specific trips you'd like to talk about?
I'm not sure that conclusions spring from this type of experience. I'd say it was more riddled with questions and confirmations.
Any person can cite Einstein's equation e=m*c^2. Fewer can explain what it means. Those than can explain what it means might not have experienced the implications. It's about here that we branch into the metaphysical and pseudo-scientific, so hopefully physics and engineering students don't smell blood and start attacking. Just relax and listen ;-)
Let's say that most people would agree that everything is energy. Everything is in constant motion. It probably isn't that hard to agree with. Especially with a small understanding of modern physics. At the subatomic level, things just keep moving. Especially electrons.
Well, doesn't that sort of knowledge seem odd when you're looking at a wall? Or the ceiling? Or a tree? You see it as an object, standing there, and static. Despite the continuous and violent motion happening on other levels, it's just this idealic image.
Psychedelics allow you to experience the dynamic nature of these objects. It frees the mind (bear with the cliche) from the standard, static view and presents you with a very vibrant, dynamic experience. It's not like staring at a wall and letting the mind wander. No, the mind is out of the question at this point. It's just You and Experience. No middle man. In this sense, it's a confirmation of what we know from physics to be the state of the universe: constant motion.
Seeing life in this way for the first time brings more questions than answers. This is probably true of each ensuing time. What must be going on for this to happen? Why doesn't it usually look this way? How can the two be reconciled? Surely we can't throw one out, as both are valid experiences?
For me, it opened my appreciation of art. A Salvidor Dali painting is something bizarre in a normal state of mind. On acid, it's like a trip to Wonderland. There is a piece of something that your eye catches, and it fills in the blanks. Then it hits another piece of the painting and fills in those blanks. Each fraction of an image in the painting opens a doorway into another reality: the reality of what the painting would look like had it been focused entirely on this concept, instead of meshing others together.
For a knowledgeable person... someone who is spiritually, mathematically, psychologically, philosophically inclined, it helps free the mind from normal thought patterns. Adrift in the sea of consciousness, you begin to notice things which maybe you've only briefly heard of before... then all of a sudden you 'get it'. This understanding can't really be put into words, but it's a complete and instant awareness and oneness with a certain topic. You can kind of see yourself functioning... and relating to concepts, ideas, and objects in a different way.
Vague enough? :-)
So vauge I can't figure an angle to attack it from. Naturaly you can't explain all that flows around you while hallucinating. There are things that come across that can be put into words, and though sometimes they dont match up to the actual experiance, I think that sharing what you can of what you know can help unlock those door that you speak of.
Just for an example, I had never thought to delve into a painting before. Sure I've watched some wall hangings do some crazy stuff, but the way you describe your experiance makes me want to experiance it.
Also, your blog is all about what those experiances have done for you. It has intrigued people in a very real way, and some of them may try it(with the proper respect for it) thanks to your blog. You have written of understanding, trying to make people understand what that understanding means.
You have turned these insubstantial understandings into something tangible in order to convince others to find there own understandings. You have explained that while unexplainable, these trips in your mind and in the lesser traversed world around us have valuable lessons to teach.
I fear that this may not be vauge enough and I will probably have some "esplainin' to do" after it gets read, but I feel it gets my point across so it will have to do.
Even though you weren't esoterically vague, you managed to make a great comment ;-)
Part of the difficulty with explaining is the linear nature of our current form of written communication. The experience is anything but linear. There is this vast sea of experience where everything is saturated with meaning. Trying to explain that meaning places one into a certain 'space' which is different from the 'space' of simple experience. It's a tangled and multi-dimensional fabric where a wall may trigger a thought about the wall you had looked at every night as a child before falling asleep which triggers the remembering of a previously-forgotten experience which you now remember and are able to compare to a later moment in life with a different understanding which somehow links to an apple which reminds you of the firetruck you used to play with and the dog you once owned. And that's just one leg of the experience. Now imagine all this knowing and all this experience taking place in one instant... where it's not being explained or understood... it simply *is*. And it's simply being experienced. There's no predictability, but there is explainability (excuse the created word).
There's a boundless field of beauty and experience out there. There are many assumptions we hold as truths and many assumptions which aren't even recognized as assumptions. As Aldous Huxley (I believe) once said, when we are born into a specific language we are both enriched by its legacy and limited by its legacy. Hopefully the pen is mightier than the sword so that the problems of the world begin to dissolve as we gain a greater understand both of ourselves and others.
Incredible, and beautifully written. I think we would have most uptight people dumbfounded with this conversation between two seemingly acid-heads. But again you mock you own words by explaining almost perfectly that which you claim unexplanable.
I love this idea though. I always hated the way the scientific method worked. For it's intended purpose sure it was great, but what of these insubstatial things that can't be tested? The world you experiance changes with every minute and things are never exactly the same trip to trip. I love being able to revisit things that i ha dtripped on before, kind of like a re-occuring dream, or even better, a continuing dream.
I am going to come back so make sure you keep updated on this, unfortunatly I have spent entirly too much time on this site as is and actually need to do some work for the last hour I'm on the clock.
I'm finding this more addictive than any substance man has been able to concoct with chemicals. For that matter, any brew nature has been able to come up with either.
I know what you mean about science! I used to love science, but the scientific method never really clicked with me. I think it needs a bit of an update, or some sort of addendum which is able to address the field of experience without expecting explicit reproducibility. Something of a neo-scientific method.
If someone's going to mock my words, it might as well be me :-) It's just that every little piece I write about experience, there's always the majority of the iceberg which is left unspoken. And when I try to convey a piece of the remaining iceberg, only the tip of it is explained, so there's an infinite amount of fractal icebergs which spring into existence as each tip is briefly touched. Now I know how Pandora must have felt when she opened that damned box :-)
I wonder if there's anyone who'd dare call me a fool or an idiot for doing such an 'irresponsible' thing as trying these substances. I know of some people that say, categorically, that drugs make you stupid. Who knows?
It's definitely enjoyable having our mutual co-flashbacks ;-)
Please refrain from encouraging others to become involved in illegal activities.
As long as it's illegal, you are welcome to disagree, argue, complain about, or further discuss legalizing the drug. However, this is a site with many young people on it, and I find it completely abhorrent you would directly encourage them to participate in an illegal activity which could place them in jail.
It's something of an illegal activity to change the law, as you're directly in conflict with what is currently the case. I encourage people to become involved in 'illegal' activities in this sense. It's their body, it's their mind, so it's really up to them.
I'm a 'young person' myself, so it's not as if I'm here trying to corrupt a youth demographic of which I'm not a part. I find it abhorrent that an activity such as this would be considered illegal in a society which was supposedly founded on individual liberty. But that's just me.
So, to fit into the mold which you've claimed as acceptable: I'm officially arguing, complaining, and discussing the legalization. If nobody tries it, they have no concept of what is illegal or why. They're members of a group that is perpetuating the illegality of a substance without even knowing why. *That* is abhorrent.
It's their body, it's their mind, so it's really up to them.
Damn Right!
“I hope the departure is joyful and I hope never to return.” - Frida Kahlo
Seacrest Out
I'm a 'young person' myself, so it's not as if I'm here trying to corrupt a youth demographic of which I'm not a part. I find it abhorrent that an activity such as this would be considered illegal in a society which was supposedly founded on individual liberty. But that's just me.
I find this post to be little more than regular peer-pressure in a school setting - with some bigger words thrown in to give the argument a sembiance of intelligence. "Come on, try it...you should try it...it's actually good for you...how will you know whether or not you like it if you don't try it?
You might as well have also added the phrase "Everybody's doing it - and you won't be cool unless you do it too."
So...where are your references? I mean, why should I believe or trust in your "experience" over the tales I've heard from others who claim the exact opposite? I have friends - who have tried acid - who will tell you that it can make you temporarily insane (if you take enough). What makes you right?
I don't mean to sound disrespectful...but right now you are a font on a screen - claiming to be a young person, encouraging other young people to take part in an activity that you've found "enlightening" (for lack of a better phrase)...And you'er implying that these others will somehow be "less" for not experiencing this. As though there is no other way to completely find yourself unless you experiment with drugs.
In fact - I'm pretty sure that's what all the guys were saying back in high school about sex.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
Fanaile,
You raise valid concerns. I understand how it can be viewed as nothing but peer pressure, but that isn't the intention. I know even that bit of reassurance will be in vain, but allow me to explain. Maybe the reason I couldn't throw in the age-old 'everyone is doing it' because that simply isn't true. And that's something of the problem. People are running around full of assumptions and fifth-hand information about what may or may not happen. And that's no way to be intelligent about an issue.
I'll give you plenty of sources. But that doesn't mean that you'll agree with them either. That doesn't even mean that you'll actually look at them and give them any more consideration than a brief glance and a reactionary dismissal of 'that's wrong, someone told me it was bad, and I believe them more than a scientist or someone who has actually tried these things'. Despite this, the sources may come in handy for someone else, so I'll post them:
Horowitz, Michael and Palmer, Cynthia. "Moksha: Aldous Huxley's Classic Writings on Psychedelics and the Visionary Experience".
Huxley, Aldous. "The Doors of Perception & Heaven and Hell".
Huxley, Aldous. "Island".
How about a study where LSD was used to cure alcoholism: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-10/uoa-ltf100606.php
For the grand overview (with more citations than I'd even care to fit on this page, see the LSD page on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD
You might even consider the drug urban legends page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_urban_legends#Urban_legends_about_LSD
Maybe you'd be interested in psychotherapy assisted by psychedelics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_psychotherapy
Hopefully that's enough to whet your fiery appetite; I'd like to call attention to the fact that true drug education is different from the shit you were fed in DARE. So it may be something worth considering in the future to not blindly or rudely attack that which you know very little about. Especially when the source of your 'knowledge' is misinformation. And possibly refrain from accusing people of 'peer pressuring' when the actual goal is simple education. You, as always, are free to choose and believe as you wish, but it's regrettable that an ignorant populous would make up the majority and prevent any true progress from happening.
Drugs aren't the only way. They are, however, a way. Like it or not, it's legitimate. Your dislike shouldn't be the reason for illegality. That's not freedom.
Fanaile,
Hopefully that's enough to whet your fiery appetite; I'd like to call attention to the fact that true drug education is different from the shit you were fed in DARE. So it may be something worth considering in the future to not blindly or rudely attack that which you know very little about. Especially when the source of your 'knowledge' is misinformation. And possibly refrain from accusing people of 'peer pressuring' when the actual goal is simple education. You, as always, are free to choose and believe as you wish, but it's regrettable that an ignorant populous would make up the majority and prevent any true progress from happening.
Drugs aren't the only way. They are, however, a way. Like it or not, it's legitimate. Your dislike shouldn't be the reason for illegality. That's not freedom.
You haven't read my blogs (or my forum topics) - which is obvious by the fact you assume I'm young enough to have gone through D.A.R.E. As complimenting as that is, my own drug education did not include D.A.R.E. - it went national long after I left Middle School - and was already well into my high school years.
So...my education on drugs was derived from stories - much like this one except the stories I was told were the exact opposite. They included horror stories like "Don't ever try it - I tried it sometime two weeks ago and felt like my heart was going to explode" or "I've never seen so much fucked up shit in my life - totally not worth it" or even "I tried it last week, I got sick, and I swear I thought I could see myself dying."
The other part of my learned knowledge comes from reading...so when I ask for references - it is to cross-reference with the reading I've already done - please do not assume that I am doing so lightly - or that I will not take them seriously.
As Samuel L. Jackson said "When you make an assumption, you make an ass out of you and umption."
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
The fact that all you know about drugs, and drug experience (or more specifically acid), is from the accounts of others telling you about them makes your opinions less informed than someone who has tried this drug first hand in my eyes. How can you truly understand the dangers of this drug if you haven't experienced them first hand? Especially an experience which differs greatly from person to person. I can understand if someone told you drunk driving was dangerous and you would believe them. It is a proven fact that it is. But it is certainly not "proven" that acid makes you go insane, or puts you through hell.
The people who say "this drug is bad because it put me through, hell" or rant about how the drug was a horrible experience are usually the people who couldn't handle its effects. These are the kind of people who advocate for the prohibition of drugs because they think that since their experience was bad, everyone's experience will be bad. All it takes is a little knowledge of the drug your doing, some will power, and the knowledge that your on that drug the prevent yourself from having a bad trip (most of the time) The people who just try drugs without knowing their effects, duration, etc. are the ones who will have a bad trip.
If you don't want to do acid, or any drugs for that matter, than that is your personal choice. But a lot of people use psychedelics to explore their mind, and gain a better understanding of their consciousness. I agree that these drugs are a good tool for exploring these things, but it is important to know it is not the only way. Tehnet isn't saying that in order to gain this knowledge you have to do drugs. He is just saying for those interested and brave enough, there is a way. Besides, if people are simple minded enough to read a blog about doing acid, and say " I need to do acid right now" they shouldn't be allowed on the internet. There is much worse things they are being told
Who, exactly, are you arguing with?
Where did I say I was informed, or that I knew more? Where did I assert any such claim as to be an expert on drugs? I asked for his references so I had something to cross-reference and look up - something that is quite common on Progressive U. He made a claim - I asked him to back it up...that's all. I didn't say his claim was wrong - I asked him to back up his assertion.
Seriously? You don't have to go out and get drunk and decide to drive to know that it's dangerous.
I never claimed to know what it felt like to be on any sort of illegal drug - I've never tried them. That doesn't mean that I can't ascertain that marijuana will give you the munchies. It also doesn't mean that I can't figure out whether or not something might be dangerous for me to try.
None of the friends that I know that have tried illegal drugs and hated them are advocates for keeping them illegal. Most of them actually believe that their experience might have been quite different had the drugs been more mainstreamed, legally. THe rest just don't care one way or another.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
I think i made it quite clear who I was arguing with... nonetheless i guess i should explain myself.
For one, I never said that you were wrong in thinking that you were more informed, or that i thought you thought you knew more, or an equal amount about the drug then anyone else. I was simply saying that since you have never experienced the drug, and that all the information you know about its effects are from people telling you/you reading something, I would trust a normal user of LSD's opinion on the matter of LSD over yours. I said this because of the references/cross referencing you were talking about. The only way for you to fully understand this drug is to try it. Not to read someones references, and cross reference those with your own. This will lead to knowing more about a standard "trip" than most people, but won't gain you any more insight on how you will react to a trip than if you listened to one of those "horror" stories. You are free to believe what you will about it, but until you've tried it, your ability to judge what is a true statement and a false statement about an acid trip is not there in my eyes.
Second, the thing about drunk driving is exactly what i said... But you completely missed to point of that paragraph. Yeah, you don't have to get drunk and drive to know that drunk driving is bad... impairment of your motor skills is something that goes with being drunk. However, the small nuances of acid, and how people react to it isn't standard at all, so you can't just generalize most aspects of someones trip. Certain aspects of an acid trip remain the same for everyone. The visuals, the speediness, and other things. However, bad trips, good trips, exploring consciousness, and all those types of things vary between user to user, so to generalize any of these things shows ignorance of the drug.
Third, i never said your friends are pro-drug prohibition. All i said was that generally, the people who are against drugs, are either those who blindly go along with the propaganda that the government puts out, or have tried some drug, couldn't handle the effects, and assumed that everyone would go through the same terror that they did. Yeah, assumptions do make an ass out of you and umptions.
I think i made it quite clear who I was arguing with...
Ah, well then next time maybe pick an argument with someone who is actually arguing...
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
Im sorry, i was under the impression that the point of this sight was to discuss things. If you didn't want to have a discussion, then why even post a reply? So if you weren't discussing or disagreeing, or arguing or what not, than what exactly are your replies about?
As I said - asking for references. He made a claim, I asked him for references to support that claim, and gave him some examples as to why I wanted said references.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
ok, lets just agree to disagree then. We both have valid points I think, but who has more valid points that is up for a debate that neither of us will see eye to eye on. This is getting kind of pointless anyways. No hard feelings of course, i just like to argue, and I happened to like this post very much so i guess i got a little defensive haha...
I'll try to steer clear of the moments where I'd be in violation of that (very appropriate) quote from Jackson. It's not productive when that happens, and I should really know better :-) Forgive the jumping to conclusions.
"They included horror stories like "Don't ever try it - I tried it sometime two weeks ago and felt like my heart was going to explode" or "I've never seen so much fucked up shit in my life - totally not worth it" or even "I tried it last week, I got sick, and I swear I thought I could see myself dying."
Well, that's kind of the point. I'm the kind of person that enjoys skydiving and roller coasters. I'd casually recommend them to anyone. However, since 'all generalization are dangerous (even this one)', such a categorical statement shouldn't be taken too seriously. Some people have bad hearts or medical conditions that don't let them take such actions with their bodies. Yes, there are exceptions.
The heart exploding issue: sometimes the heart rate picks up. With this in mind, it's recommended that someone be in good shape before taking LSD.
(My personal favorite) 'I've never seen so much fucked up shit in my life'... that's exactly why I'm encouraging this type of experience. It shows you things that you'd never see otherwise. These events have significance. And it's the point... altered perceptions can create some odd situations...
"I thought I could see myself dying": also a worthwhile experience. Maybe these experiences teach us something about death. Maybe they teach us about life and what exactly consciousness is. Isn't it worth investigating that someone could "*see* their self dying"? That's an amazing claim. What does it mean? And who says that this sort of symbolic death doesn't have some sort of transcendental quality to it?
There are some strange experiences that come out of exploring this facet of existence. It can help someone find the right questions or even lead them to possibilities they'd never previously considered. But it's not an 'easy' experience. Climbing Everest isn't easy either, but it caries personal reward.
I'll try to steer clear of the moments where I'd be in violation of that (very appropriate) quote from Jackson. It's not productive when that happens, and I should really know better :-) Forgive the jumping to conclusions.
Of Course! I understand, it happens sometimes. And, you and I have not really talked before. So I'll just let you know (now) that I do not place lines for people to read between. When I state something, I mean exactly the words I've chosen unless further clarified with a statement such as "for lack of a better phrase" (which generally means that the word I've chosen is close in nuance, but not exactly the word I'm looking for at the moment). I don't get a lot of time, so I don't like to beat around the proverbial bush when it comes to statements or questions. Part of the reason, too, that we haven't really gotten to talk before is that while other faculty members go through posts, blogs, comments, and etc. - I am the one fixing (for example) the rating system so it doesn't delete your rating after leaving a comment, or adding the new quote link, or updating the system's database... Things that don't get posted with authorship... So - the posts I read come from two sources - my buddylist or when someone else brings a post to my attention (either for praise or because it's been flagged) until the end of the contest when I need to start tallying points and going through posts that will not count for points.
So - that's me. Hopefully knowing this will keep our communications a bit more open. I'm a bitch - I know this - but I'm a fair and honest bitch.
"They included horror stories like "Don't ever try it - I tried it sometime two weeks ago and felt like my heart was going to explode" or "I've never seen so much fucked up shit in my life - totally not worth it" or even "I tried it last week, I got sick, and I swear I thought I could see myself dying."
Well, that's kind of the point. I'm the kind of person that enjoys skydiving and roller coasters. I'd casually recommend them to anyone. However, since 'all generalization are dangerous (even this one)', such a categorical statement shouldn't be taken too seriously. Some people have bad hearts or medical conditions that don't let them take such actions with their bodies. Yes, there are exceptions.
The heart exploding issue: sometimes the heart rate picks up. With this in mind, it's recommended that someone be in good shape before taking LSD.
(My personal favorite) 'I've never seen so much fucked up shit in my life'... that's exactly why I'm encouraging this type of experience. It shows you things that you'd never see otherwise. These events have significance. And it's the point... altered perceptions can create some odd situations...
"I thought I could see myself dying": also a worthwhile experience. Maybe these experiences teach us something about death. Maybe they teach us about life and what exactly consciousness is. Isn't it worth investigating that someone could "*see* their self dying"? That's an amazing claim. What does it mean? And who says that this sort of symbolic death doesn't have some sort of transcendental quality to it?
There are some strange experiences that come out of exploring this facet of existence. It can help someone find the right questions or even lead them to possibilities they'd never previously considered. But it's not an 'easy' experience. Climbing Everest isn't easy either, but it caries personal reward.
I know that trying illegal drugs is not for me - And there is no argument in the world that will ever convince me otherwise. When half a tablet of codeine can knock me out for more than 19 hours - I know that my little body can't handle anything stronger than that. There's a reason that my doctors still give me children's doses of medications (or less). Add to that the fact that I just don't want to, and there simply is no way that emotionally my mind would be prepared for anything that I might experience.
And trust me when I say I used to be a snob about it. On many ocassions, I still am. - but not nearly to the point I was during my 20s. For example, I dated a guy for four years - everything was great, and I found out he tried acid. I dumped him lickety split - never spoke to him again. Now, I know what some will think when they read that - holy shit Batman, what a stupid bitch. And no, I don't regret it one bit. That's who I was twelve years ago.
And I don't disagree that the experiences you're describing have their uses for some people - but I don't think such experiences could possibly be for everyone. Therefore, while I no longer tell everyone I meet that they should never, ever try drugs, I also don't agree with those people who will say that every one should. There are other ways to gain such enlightenment or reach an understanding of yourself...and there are plenty of ways to change or broaden your perception that don't include sticking substances into your body.
For me, personally, looking into a mirror and watching myself die is not something I want to experience. I'm not even slightly curious about what might be learned from such a thing. (Quite frankly, the whole idea just brings Raistlin back to mind). As far as the rest, I've seen plenty of fucked up shit - I don't need drugs to bring them to light or to gain a better understanding.
And, to clarify, yes I do realize that you're not telling me to go out and do LSD. If I thought you were, I wouldn't bother replying to the post.
When I said it was little more than peer-pressure, that's because Katie had mentioned that a lot of young people read this site, and you justified yourself by saying you were a member of that demographic. So, essentially, you are a member of one demographic strongly encouraging your peers to take part in an activity that they might otherwise find disagreeable. And when I asked for references, it really was so I could read them and have something other than just your font telling me your argument.
Generally, I hate that Progressive U and its faculty have to act as a sort of babysitter against those weak-minded people who would read a post and say "I'm going to go try that" - but there are idiots everywhere. If there weren't any idiots, then we wouldn't have problems censoring other forms of the media, like television, and no one would be blaming hip-hop for anything. And there wouldn't be warning labels on everything taking the stead of common sense.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
you are my new hero
Hey, you said it yourself,
Fanaile,
You raise valid concerns. I understand how it can be viewed as nothing but peer pressure, but that isn't the intention. I know even that bit of reassurance will be in vain, but allow me to explain.
true she did get a little rude but you completely changed your attitude half-way through. There is no reason to be angry if you believe your right. In an argument, if it goes on long enough to actually be drawn to a conclusion, will be acknowledged as the right way.
I understand your frustration at the percieved ignorance of these people who have never tried these substances, but you have to understand that some are not able to handle these drugs, and most people cannot handle substance use the way you do. Many people I've met have ruined their lives because of these drugs. But there is a good argument in what you are saying, and it is one that has been brought up before by many of the people on this site.
" If youth are going to do this anyway, why not educate and prepare them for it."
That's a disscussion for a different comment though. I really feel that even though she was too harsh with her comment, you were absolutly wrong in your reaction after you sited your sources. Stay calm and let them make an ass out of themselves by over reacting.
Great point. I didn't respond as tactfully as I should have.
Im absolutely amazed that there are some people so very empathic that they can determine how someone is emotionally feeling when they convey thier thoughtys via text.
For those less gifted that was sarcasm.
If someone posts something on here, and its in the spirit of debate, take it at that. I understand this is a volitale issue, in many ways up there with religion, politics, and sexuality. However, you all must also realize that staff members of ProU, must read everything here, and judge it on the basis of who else reads here. This is not a violation of anyones first amendment rights, but take care with what you preach, considering there are many people who are members here that are impressionable, due to youth, mental issues, or just plain good 'ol stupidity. The staff has to comb through these posts, because there is a responsiblity to the public, a promise that was made when you joined, that there would not be material that is liable, invective, or abusive. Read the TOS.
Also you might want to note, that one faculty member was very abrupt (and justly so) about not posting something illegal. Fanaile was simply asking for the original blogger to list thier sources... which I take to be as a simple request in ANY forum. Nowhere in there was rudeness to be had. If it was seen that way, then that's on your side. The original blogger also apologized, I dont think he (as he seems to be an intelligent, well written, kinda cat) needs your help on determining whether or not someone is being an "ass".
This type of communication is VERY limited, especially when dealing with an issue that strikes MANY close to home. Dont read to much into your reading. Above all else I think we're all here to learn from one another. Let's try that instead of resorting to innuendo, and barely veiled criticism. Save your critiques for writing, content, and entertainment value. I think everyone would be much happier that way.
Besides I have yet to see Fanaile actually argue with anyone, so far she seems to be one of the few people that is truly interested in what everyone has to say. If not, do you think she would have asked for source material? Read some of her blogs, youll find she tends to even be overly fair, even when its not warranted.
Oh and peace.......
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"One of the things that draws writers to writing, is that they can get things right that they got wrong in real life, by writing about them"
~ Tobias Wolffe
I have tried to write a proper response twice and have recieved an error report closing my browser. I've just lost near an hour of groveling and explaining myself and now no eyes will read my flowery apologies, but I am sorry.
It was not my intention to critizise any of the amazing staff on this site, and I did not mean to seem as though I was advocating the use of drugs. I just meant that as an argument he was out of line if he meant to win.
Not to say she was arguing so much as telling, but he was abviously getting into the begining stages. I know fanaile is a wonderful person, and does more for this community then I can ever hope to. She is very fair and I just eccetuated her slight snippyness near the end to make him feel better about admitting he was wrong and therefore trusting the way I think.
The last part was not intended to refer to fanaile but to people who he may argue with in general. I should have said if you believe you are right then eventually the opposing side will start to lose out, and when someones on the losing side of an argument anger is their only weapon.
I wrote my comment before I read the rest of the comments that followed because I wanted to make a point of how he was out of line. I was happy to see he saw reason before I even typed a word( not suprised). I would never call such a heartfelt lady an ass, even if she had actually deserved it.
Again though I apologise for the decieving wording I will carefully review my comments for more than just the passing typo from now on.
First off, let me give you all some basic history on myself, so my qualifications to speak about this subject are readily apparent.
I have been many things in my life. I started bartending at seventeen, in Juarez, Mexico. From there, when I was old enough to bartend in the U.S., I worked at an alternative lifestyles bar called the Old Plantation, in El Paso. The choice of music was electronica, of course. During all those early years, I was also DJ'ing. Finding a love for the rave scene came quite easily. Add to this that both my parents, and my grandmother on my mother's side, were hippies, and drug dealers, you can see that the whole "Drugs are Bad" idealogy had no effect on me whatsoever. Now fastforward. I moved to Dallas, following my DJ career, and hooked up with an MDMA/LSD dealer there. We became fast friends, so at this point, I'm a Progressive Trance/Breaks DJ, who bartends on the side, and is best friends with his dealer. How much acid do YOU think I've dropped? Guess whatever, and multiply it by a factor of shitloads.
An aside: Thankfully, through the grace of the Lord, and the rigid discipline of the U.S. Military, I'm clean now, and have been for years.
Now I'm not going to say that noone should drop acid, or peyote, or shrooms, or X, or any other various substances. I have tried them ALL, plus some you have probably never heard of. In multiple combinations. Even the combo's have thier own designations: Hippieflipping, Candyflipping, Lushed, K-Holed, G'Z'ed... etc etc.
What I will say is, it is NOT, I repeat NOT for everyone. I have seen one hit of acid take someone who was apparently stable, cut themselves with a broken mirror, because she thought it would release the Angel from within her. I have seen another friend (God rest her soul) take a HALF tab of X and turn into such a drug fiend that eventually it killed her. I have had another friend, lose himself, so completely into the halluecinogenic scene, that he stopped taking his other prescribed medications and ended up disappearing off the face of the Earth. Finally, the most personally tragic story... my best friend. Another DJ, who could have truly made it all the way to the upper echelons of success. Left my Godchild fatherless, because while under the influence of Acid, he decided that his COMPLETELY LOYAL wife was cheating on him, and he commited suicide.
Yes, there are some people, even I, would tell to try acid. For me it did open up some pathways in my brain I had not used before. In some ways my arts have become more creative and refined for it. For the sheer amount of shit I have done though, I am EXTREMELY lucky, and blessed to be reasonably sane.
I do not condone America's Drug "War". I do not think cannibis should be criminalized or illegal. I do not like the fact that Alcohol remains legal, and kills people in ABUNDANCE. I could give a million positive drug experiences. Unfortunately, even the death of ONE SINGLE person overshadows all of the good.
I dig the blog (I did when I first read it, too), but believe me when I tell you this... There is nothing on this wonderful planet that is fit for all people, because most people have no idea who they are, and some of them (albeit very few), might not be able to handle it when they do discover thier true selves.
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"One of the things that draws writers to writing, is that they can get things right that they got wrong in real life, by writing about them"
~ Tobias Wolffe
yeah or not...I don't understand advocating something like that at all...that can seriously screw a person up...I would know...I did it the first time when I was 11...bad idea...and the high is unreal...but that's what draws you to it...my life got so messed up b/c of that...it was entirely not worth the experience
I did acid twice back in the 1970s (Orange Barrels and Snoopy Blots). I think you are right about flashbacks being a lie. But both times I had a hangover that lasted about 3 days and it seemed like a week before I had my head on straight. I have to believe that there was some damage at least the equivalent of getting absolutely blotto drunk.
I probably did magic mushrooms 50 times and I mostly loved them and I really don't think they did me any serious harm. But there is a period in early in the high as you rush towards a strong peak that feels unpleasantly like insanity. It comes on fast and fortunately goes away fast. I finally quit when I decided that these episodes were too unpleasant to justify the rest of the experience.
As a parent I would not want my daughter doing either of these drugs.
You bring up interesting points. I for one have no problem with experimentation with drugs. I've never done it myself, but college starts in the fall and this summer is supposed to be interesting to say the least.
I never take warnings seriously, especially those from governments and their agencies. I would like to see how well I write when I'm on a drug...at least once.
Jeez, you got a huge reaction to this blog....and you've not even been on ProgU for 2 weeks!? Holy moly, you are on a roll.
Not that I condone the use of drugs, cuz I don't. I don't think anyone's going to put a dent in my stubborn armor on that subject! However, I can still respect your opinion and your thoughts. It was an interesting entry, to say the least.
~ *~
This is a signature, an automated thingy that pops up when I comment, not a demand to see my blog!
Mind Control is Easier Than You Think
That's how I roll ;-)
Change your mind or dont, that's fine... just don't be part of the group that limits the abilities of those who don't have the same beliefs.
I believe I got a similar effect to drugs merely by rolling down a hill. I say believe having never used drugs. It made me giddy, and it was a thrill. I think that this is a positive alternative to drugs.
Of course there will be the naysayers who insist that rolling down a hill can also be dangerous, and of course it does not get rid of problems, merely makes you forget about it for a short time. And yes, the thrill is short lived. I think that it is worth a try.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/tricia0711