to support someone else's choice. Being homosexual is not a disease nor is it a defect. in fact, same-sex sex, is a natural phenomenon. For those who would argue that the only animals who engage in such practices are humans, please refer to the article below.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.ht...
Homosexuality, in and of itself, does not make you a child molester, untrustworthy, or evil. People of any gender or sexual orientation can be violent and aggressive. I am disturbed by those who will reject family members, friends and loved ones because of an interest in sexual expression. What happens in the bedrooms of consenting adults is the business of those consenting adults. Denying homosexual people rights because they are gay is like denying women rights because they are not men or denying black people rights because they are not white. I see no basis in reality to say that there anything unnatural nor immoral about being attracted to someone of the same sex.
“A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”
- Albert Einstein
"You cannot discover the purpose of life by asking someone else - the only way you'll ever get the right answer is by asking yourself."
~Terri Guillemets
Other information you might find interesting:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/suppress.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/about.aspx
Being homosexual is not abnormal. Homosexuality can be traced back to the times of the romans. It is nothing new, but in our society today every is so sensitive and believe that everything shoud be one way.
i am a christian and i completely hate it when the pastor stand up there and says its a sin to hate but in the same breath says that homosexuality is wrong, disgusting, and immoral. in my own opinion, i feel that those are words of hate. i really like your blog!
Your pastor, as well as many people out there, contradict them selves by saying to hate some one or some thing is wrong and the turns around and says that homosexuality is wrong and immoral. Those are words of hate.
and on the reverse side these Christian priests are in fact engaging in homosexuality themselves. Did anyone see the settlement they came to?
i guarantee that if paris hilton,britney spears, nick lachey or justin timberlake or any other "icon" were gay, people would find it much more acceptable. i'm completely for it, choice is choice, but apparently since paris was there, jail is "cool", and now it's "in" to go to rehab, so maybe if one of them goes gay too, then our normal citizen choices will finally be accepted, eh?
sad to think of it that way.
I'm not trying to condemn you or anything, but homosexuality IS wrong, God clearly says that in his word. I'm speaking out for christians as a whole, we really dont hate homosexuals, I definatly dont agree with homosexual practices, but I do try to show homosexuals that christians really do care. Try to look at it this way... when you were a kid and your dad got stern or harsh with you because of an ill behavoir or wrong, he did it because he loved you, and thats exactly what pastors do, and in doing that they reflect their title, "pastor" they are supposed to pastor you in the way of God. Homosexuality IS wrong, and not of God, and im not telling you this in a malicious manner or pensive expression, im telling you this because the bible says its a sin, and you don't realize that. What God calls a sin, will cause you to go to hell if you practice it. So Please, for your benefit, realize that it's wrong, and is not an alternate life style in God's eyes. God wants you to know that he still loves you, but it will cost you if you want to reach the kingdom of God. That cost is anything God says is wrong, including homosexuality. I do hope this little blog has caused you to consider changing your views and focusing on God. God bless you
Maybe you should speak for yourself. I know many Christians who don't interpret the bible the same way you do.
____________________________________________________________________
Denken. Nicht lesen.
One- no one who thinks that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality is going to change their views based on this. The reason is that it is, although I'm sure not intentionally, a very hypocritical message. For instance allow me to paraphrase the first sentence. Basically it's this 'I'm not saying homosexuality is bad, it's only wrong."
Two- it is very, to put it bluntly, narrow minded and authoritative. It is wrong because god said that it is wrong in the bible and this is one of the biblical laws that I choose to follow. Don't say that you follow them all, because it's not possible to do so. Further more.
Three- I assume that you will disagree with the next statement, but I suppose I could be wrong. Homosexuality is NOT a choice in any way. It is a biological predisposition to a preference of your own sex. Here is a bit of common sense to back that up. I assume that you are heterosexual. You are because of biology, nature, god, or whatever you want to say the reason is. Being heterosexual comes naturally to you. Can you imagine choosing to stop being attracted to the opposite sex and start being attracted to the same sex, not only going against your nature, nut choosing a life style that a huge amount of people discriminate against? If you are one of those peole who thinks that homosexuality is not a choice, but that homosexuals should contain their homosexuality, all I have to say is that this is absolutely ridiulous. If god made homosexuals only to give them horrible lives, I can say nothing good about god.
Four- I'm sure that many Christians really don't hate homosexuals and some that do think that they don't, but in this case, hating the so called sin amounts to the same thing. And there is a large Christian population that definately hates homosexuality.
Five- I'm sure that everyone reading this site knows that the bible says that homosexuality is a sin.
At the start of my original blog, I referenced supporting someone else's choice. I want to clarify what I meant in that sentence: The choice to live as you are. Plenty of people hide their true feelings because of religious, social or political prejudices, as Jsaj noted.
I wasn't reffering to your original blog. I thought that you were making yourself clear. I was covering the basic possible responses that could have been made to my blog by floridaboyz069 .
I wanted to be clear, in case anyone misunderstood my meaning. After I re-read my post, I felt my statement was too vague. Your post just prompted me to elaborate. Thanks for keeping me on my toes ^_^
> How can yu be a christian and believe
> in homosexuality ?
I would guess the same way that they can believe that the world is round, that dinosaurs walked the earth many millions of years ago, and that women aren't "unlcean" and should be locked away from sight when they menstrate.
> I'm not trying to condemn you or
> anything, but homosexuality IS wrong,
Do you have any idea how completely hypocritical that sounds?
> God clearly says that in his word.
Actually, if one takes the time to study the original language and meaning of early christian texts, the position you espouse isn't really "clear" at all.
> I'm speaking out for christians as a whole,
> we really dont hate homosexuals,
As a gay man who has been harassed, spit on (literally), and even assaulted though much of my life by christians who seem to think that they have a right to compel me to be someone other than who I am, I really have to say that I don't think you are accurately representing "christians as a whole" when you claim not to "hate" us.
> I definatly dont agree with homosexual
> practices, but I do try to show homosexuals
> that christians really do care. Try to look at
> it this way... when you were a kid and your
> dad got stern or harsh with you because of
> an ill behavoir or wrong, he did it because
> he loved you, and thats exactly what pastors
> do,
There are a couple of things I would like to say about this comment. First of all, it is immensely presumptive to sit there and presume that YOUR position is the one that represents the "adult" one. I suppose it goes hand in hand with the a priori belief that all religous fanatics share...that their religious beliefs are the "right" ones, and everyone else's opinions are automatically the "wrong" ones, and nevermind the fact that their religion really doesn't have any more objective evidence to support its validity over any other.
The second thing is that if this option was truly confined simply to other christians, one could at least take a step back and accept that the principle of religoius freedom dictates that you can believe whatever you wish, and if someone wishes to subject themselves to this kind of draconian and primitive belief, that is their right. But, when someone takes a purely religious opinion, and tries to establish laws that compel other citizens to abide by the beliefs of a religion that they do not share, you are crossing a line that our Constitution rather explicitly prohibits. Personally--and I think I speak for a lot of gay people when I say this--I could not care any less about the judgements your religion dictates regarding my personal life. Like most Americans, gay people by and large just want to be left alone to live their lives just like any other citizen. We are guaranteed the same rights as any other citizen, and one of those rights includes the freedoms to make our own choices in regards to religion, and with whom we associate in an intimate fashion.
> and in doing that they reflect their title,
> "pastor" they are supposed to pastor you
> in the way of God.
I am remined of the words of the great woman's suffragist...
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." ~ Susan B. Anthony
I really never cease to be amazed at the amount of gall that it takes for someone to sit there and tell everyone else what their opinions should be concerning ideas that are purely subjective.
> Homosexuality IS wrong, and not of God,
> and im not telling you this in a malicious
> manner or pensive expression, im telling
> you this because the bible says its a sin,
> and you don't realize that.
That's very interesting, but it isn't really relevant to the facts of human biology. Thinking that homosexuality is "wrong" doesn't change the fact that it is a perfectly natrural expression in terms of human biology. It is also rather remakably inconsistent (for most christians, at least) to take the stance that everything that the bible calls "a sin" is a rational commandment that must be followed. One can turn a page or two in either direction from every single reference to homosexuality in the bible, and find something in the bible that most modern christians would flatly refuse to accept if they were held to the same standard of biblical consistency.
> What God calls a sin, will cause you to go
> to hell if you practice it.
The same passages from the bible also consider having a physical handicap a sin as well (Leviticus 21:16-23). Is it really so difficult to comprehend that many of the "sins" described in the bible are really nothing more than primitively ignorant ideas that really just don't stand up to reason when you really stop to look at them?
> So Please, for your benefit, realize that it's
> wrong, and is not an alternate life style in
> God's eyes. God wants you to know that
> he still loves you, but it will cost you if
> you want to reach the kingdom of God.
> That cost is anything God says is wrong,
> including homosexuality.
If there is a "god," I think I will wait to hear that from "his" mouth. One doesn't have to be a biblical scholar to understand that "the bible" has a long history of being interpreted and re-interpreted rather conveniently to reflect the political and social views of its human leaders. And, one doesn't have to be a rocientist to see that the men who (supposedly, at least) wrote the books of the bible really din't have a clue about a great many of the subjects upon which they expound, despite what the flat-and-young-earth creationsists will tell you.
> I do hope this little blog has caused you to
> consider changing your views and focusing
> on God. God bless you
And, I hope that my response to your comments has caused you to consider that maybe it doesn't make a lot of sense to cling to some obscure point of a 2000+ year old philosophy that is quite plainly based in primitive ignorance.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
Hi V, I read you post and agree with you on what you say. As I mentioned earlier, I stand firm. What do you think?
I didn't notice a previous post by you in this discussion. So, I'm not quite sure what you are standing firm on, or about what you want to know my thoughts. Would you please clarify?
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
I'm on kind of a time constraint right now so I didn't get to thoroughly read your comment, but I hope I'm on the right track here...
I am a Christian, and I agree with [most of] your points.
I don't claim to know everything about the Bible. And I don't claim that I am better than everyone. I wish people like the person who posted his "holier than thou" post against homosexuality would stop giving Christianity a bad name.
I've looked this subject up a few times in the Bible, and (keep in mind I can't quote it because I'm at work and it's not right in front of me) from what I've seen, those verses that everyone keeps referring to as "anti-homosexual" are extremely vague and open to interpretation (as is the entire Bible).
I hope that some people's ignorance does not give you a bad opinion of all Christians; most of us are truly accepting (as the Bible some people are ignorantly using against homosexuality teaches) of everyone. We're taught to love all people, and as cheesy-hippie-peace loving as that sounds, it's a fact that these hypocrites should try to live by.
Besides, we are the way God makes us, right? ;)
It is ALWAYS a pleasure to read your thouroughly explained and logical responses to those of us who are so close-minded. Thanks. 2 thumbs up. :-)
Ceila --
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ceila30
Be careful, I am Christian as well but God did not intend for you or I to pass judgement... this is done in his eyes and in his way.
We are not the judge, jury, or, God. We must accept people for who they are. We do not have to condone, like, approve, teach, enable or, participate.
We do have to accept that this person is different from us and as long as they are acting like mature civilized people in public and not raping or molesting then leave them alone and focus on the bigger problems in society.
I seen the church settlement and I also read the comment the POPE made. I was ashamed to be a former Catholic and this man will answer to God himself for such a disgusting and egotistical comment to make about millions of people who beleive in God but by different rules.
I have had a few people use the concept of "progressive revelation" in reference to Biblical understanding. Perhaps the Christians who are supportive of homosexuals operate on this principle?
In the old testament, god is vindictive, violent and constantly testing how worthy all "his followers" are. In the new testament god is loving, forgiving and lacks the severe wrath of the old testament.
If the best explanation of this is that "god didn't change, our understanding of god changed" then our understanding of the bible's intolerance to homosexuality might also change.
Take the example of eating pork. I know of very few Christians (personally, though they are out there) who would turn down a slice of crispy bacon. The bible clearly states that eating the meat of this particular animal is wrong. Why do people still eat it? In light of our understanding of the germ theory of disease, we rationalize that the priests put this law in place because eating pork made people sick. The bible's position against homosexuality is derived from living in a patriarchal society. The number of children who lived to adulthood then was much lower than today. Should a percentage of the population engage in practices that did not result in offspring, no male children would be around to carry on the family name and continue to expand territories, etc.
(This doesn't even begin to touch on the extreme sexism in the bible. I don't see women covering their heads and walking three steps behind their men everywhere they go. Yet another example of a once strongly defended and now out-dated bible tenet.)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sinpars1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation
You Say:
"We are not the judge, jury, or, God. We must accept people for who they are. We do not have to condone, like, approve, teach, enable or, participate.
We do have to accept that this person is different from us and as long as they are acting like mature civilized people in public and not raping or molesting then leave them alone and focus on the bigger problems in society. "
In the first statement you say we are to accept people for who they are.....the the second paragraph, you clearly state that you do not accep rapists and molestors.....What a contradiction. You are able to pick and choose who we 'have to accept' and that doesn't seem very nice.
(Please notice the sarcasm in my voice)These poor rapists and molestors were born this way. We can't expect them to have to CHOOSE to ignore their sexual desires can we???? It is obviously natural! In fact, I saw a young puppy having sex (against its will) with an older dog just the other day! Obviously (as someone else posted) we should derive our standards for right and wrong from the lesser animals...I mean if animals do it, surely it must be ok for us!! Right?? So, please lay off the rapists and the molestors...it is biology for crying out loud!!!!
My point is...we all have desires that are wrong. It is our choice of what we do with that desire that is wrong. I am a Christian, and part of being a Christian is believeing in the inerrancy of the Bible. I am not telling you to stop being homosexual. I happen to have several friends that are homosexual. I don't yell and scream and spit in their face...They are, however, aware that I feel that they are headed for hell. They don't agree, we don't argue. They actually appreciate that I care enough about them to rationally discuss the topic with them....
It is like this. If you knew some folks were headed down a road at night towards a bridge that was out, and they didn't believe it, but you really cared about them.....would you stop telling them about the washed out bridge because they didn't believe you and you certainly didn't want to risk offending them by telling them that they were wrong???? That certainly wouldn't be very loving, now would it????
I totally disagree with the yelling, spitting 'Christians' that are out there. Folks, don't confuse 'RELIGION' with Christianity. I am fed up with 'religion', but I still love Christ. You don't want to be wrongfully tagged as a child molestor because there are some homosexual child molestors, and I true Christians don't want to be tagged as raving idiots becuase the media likes to protray us that way.....be a little fair if you expect the world to be fair to you!! :-)
Geef.........
If you beleive in the inerrancy of the bible, then you must also beleive that bats are birds, killing non-chritians is ok, hating your family is ok, as well as a hundred other things that I'm sure you don't follow.
There is ahuge difference between homosexuals and rapists/molestors. The difference is that homosexuals are attracted to the same sex. They can engage in relationships with people of the same sex that is consensual. Rapists and molestors (regardless of their sexual orientation) are performing sexual acts on other people without their consent.
No one suggested we should derive our sense of right and wrong from animals.
I must say that I am very impressed with your gay friends. I don't think that I could be friends with someone who hated me. Excuse me, hates the way I live my life and thinks I am going to hell, but still loves me because it's the Christian thing to do.
"You don't want to be wrongfully tagged as a child molestor because there are some homosexual child molestors"
This suggests, I hope inadvertantly, that child molestation is more common among homosexuals.
"and I true Christians don't want to be tagged as raving idiots becuase the media likes to protray us that way.....be a little fair if you expect the world to be fair to you!! :-)"
Seeing as the world is not fair to homosexuals, I don't see why supporters of homosexual rights should be fair to the religious right.
then what was the point of Jesus?
Jesus went to preach to SINNERS and told them to repent, and told his desciples to preach the same.
if we accept people for who they are, we should accept murderers, rapist, and pretty much anyone... because that's the way they are.
if we just accept people, it defeats the point of God's word. love is painful also...
Well Said......
Rapists, murderers, theives and assaulters hurt other people through their actions. Homosexuals hurt no one. If you beleive homosexuality is wrong and they are hurting themselves, well, that's their business.
since people that commit suicide only hurt themselves, you are of the opinion that if a friend of yours was going to commit suicide, you would do nothing to stop him? Right?? I mean, that's THEIR business.....
It is their business. I might suggest they get help, but when it comes down to it, it's there business. And the reason I would suggest they get help is that the consequence is death. I would not suggest anything if it was only against my religion. I would accept that they don't share the same beleifs as me.
I should be free to believe the way that I want to. I believe the Bible...YOu don't have to, but that should have no bearing on MY beliefs. The Bible clearly states that the "Wages of sin is death". I don't think I need to say anymore.
...but the freedom to believe in something doesn't imply that your beliefs are immune to comment or criticism, especially when you trot them out in a forum of public discussion.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
Can you please give us an objective explanation of how someone who is being gay is "hurting themselves?" I don't think anyone is questioning your concern for the people around you, but rather the utter lack of intelligent justifcation for your intrusive judgements.
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
We are discussing MY beliefs....and Hell kinda sounds like it hurts to me....spending an eternity in fire and brimstone? YEah, that would be considered hurtful.
I am allowed to believe in the Bible. Therefore, just beacause you don't believe in the Bible, you can't expect me to not use it as a basis for my belief system.
Intrusive judgements? All I did was simply state my opinion (that did not include hating homosexuals). I have not called homosexuals ignorant, intrusive, or anything else....even though they believe I should either change my beliefs or shut the hell up. Who is being intrusive? Who is being unintelligent? You seem to be the only one calling me names...
...and part of that discussion is the pointing out of the irrational basis of those beliefs. Just saying that you "believe" something doesn't mean that your beliefs are well thought out, reasoned or informed.
For example, instead of saying "Hell kinda sounds like it hurts to me," you could just as easily have said "I bet it hurts when Green Lantern shoots you with his Power Ring." Both statements make just as much sense, and both statements have exactly as much proof supporting a belief that there is an actual danger that they could come to pass.
And yes, you can believe in the bible if you wish, but your belief doesn't make you immune to criticism, nor does your fervor make those beliefs any more proveable.
Please spare us your martydom. You have comapared accepting a gay person to accepting "rapists and molestors." You compared our relationships to dogs having sex, and even implied that one of the dogs in your comparison a pedophile. You compared being gay to driving over a washed out bridge. You compared being gay to suicide. In a response to another blog, you even compared gay relationships to eating one's own "poo."
What you really want is the ability to say whatever you want about gay people without having to take responsibility for the ignorance of your words. That's not going to happen here. You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but if you're going to express that opinion in public, you need to learn how to defend that opinion if you want it to be taken seriously.
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
> IF we accept people for who they are...
> then what was the point of Jesus?
Well...since not all of us are christians, might I suggest that there isn't any point in bring "Jesus" into this discussion.
> Jesus went to preach to SINNERS and told
> them to repent, and told his desciples to
> preach the same.
Since we live in a country that protects the religious rights of non-christians as well as it does the rights of christians, then perhaps you should take the hint when someone tells you that they aren't interested in what your religion has to say about their life.
> if we accept people for who they are, we
> should accept murderers, rapist, and pretty
> much anyone... because that's the way they are.
I am going to have to take you to task over this comment. I challenge you to provide any objectively rational justifcation for comparing a gay person to a murderer or a rapist. How would you feel if someone came up to you and your wife (or husband) and compared your relationship to a rape, or your love to a murder? This is the kind of asinine comment that makes it really difficult to be "nice" to you guys.
> if we just accept people, it defeats the point
> of God's word. love is painful also...
Indeed. Even the Dahli Llama once said that sometimes the most compassionate act is a slap in the face. So, here's your *smack*. There are aspects of christian theology that really don't make a lot of sense, and this is one of them, and only a religious fanatic refuses to take a step back and question the tenets of his or her religion when those tenets can be shown to run contrary rational thought and scientific fact. This attitude that you are defending is ignorant and hateful, and doing so undermines your personal credibility as a rational and compassionate human being.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
all of us aren't homosexuals, maybe we shouldn't bring homosexuality into this either??? No, that doesn't make sense....why restrict a certain class of people beliefs because you don't believe that way...wouldn't that be intolerant?
Oh yes, and Christian IS a class....
Christians are free to beleive as they wish. They are free to, if they want, stand on street corners and say that homosexuality is evil. Homosexuals are not given the same rights as other people and that is a restriction.
Note, I said taken away....Same sex couples have never been allowed to get married. The definition of marriage has ALWAYS been a union between a man and a woman. Homosexuals have the right to a union. No one is suggesting that you can not be together.....Men and women have marriages, homosexuals have unions.....
If you haven't noticed, homosexuals stand on the street corners and proclaim their sexual orientation on a regular basis...why is it that you never see heteros feeling compelled to stand up and proclaim their sexuality in a parade or on the street corner??
They have not had the right to marriage taken away from them. Just because you never had a certain right doesn't mean it isn't restriction if you still don't have that right.
If a heterosexal person wanted to, that person could wander around saying that he/she is straight.
We couldn't. Just that we don't.
You keep talking about Christians wanting to take aways homosexuals rights. We can't take anything that never belonged to them in the first place.
It is obvious that you are more than a little ignorant of history, if you think that gay people have never been afforded their right to marry before. There are numerous historical examples of societies that did just that, though the U.S. has only recently joined that list.
Of course, your argument is invalid in any case, since the rights of interracial couples were not permitted in this country until the Lovings sued the State of Virginia in the Supreme Court and had the unconstitutional laws which prevented thier marriage struck down.
They had the right before the laws were struck down, but were simply prevented from exercising that right by others who unlawfully prevented them from exercising that right.
ALL citizens of this country are afforded certain, basic rights in our Constituttion, and the exercise of those rights may not lawfully be restricted without the exercise of a certain amount of due process. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen anyway, but then that's why the Courts are empowered to strike down unconstitutional laws.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
I neve said anything about taking away rights. I said that a prevention of rights is still a denial of rights. And now, they do want to take away the right to marriage seeing as it now exists in this country.
...is the issue of tolerance (or rather intolerance) towards gay people, so it seems more than a little...irrational...to suggest that the topic of homosexuality is irrelevant. And, no one is saying that your beliefs should be restricted. We are merely reminding you that other people have rights, too.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
Show me one time, just ONCE, where I suggested taking a freedom away from you? Well, it seems more than a little irrational to tell a Christian to remove God, or the Bible from our defenses on what we feel is a religious matter......
You keep reminding us that you have the right to believe whatever you wish, as well as the right to express those beliefs. I am simply pointing out that other people have those same rights, and if you're going to sit there and use your beliefs as a basis from which to criticize others, you really shouldn't act surprised when they exercise those same rights to respond to your criticisms and to point out your own rather glaring flaws.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
If you feel that homosexuality is a religious matter then you should keep it within your religion. Gay people outside of your religion have no reason to respect your religious beliefs. When you tell somebody outside of your religion that your religion CONDEMNS THEM TO ETERNAL TORMENT because of the way that they choose to express their love they will not react well. When you tell people outside of your religion that your religion considers homosexuals to be below certain rights and freedoms they will not react well.
A non-Christian homosexual is going to think the same about you that you would if a Hindu told you that Shiva was going to claim your soul for eternal punishment. They don't take it seriously because they care about your God and your Bible as much as you care about Hinduism and its beliefs about your life.
As Christians take their religious fervor against homosexuals to the voting booths they become the enemy of homosexuals in this country. How can you expect homosexuals to accept a religious opinion that condemns them and denies them the basic right to marriage? You argue that homosexuals have never had that right and therefore are not entitled to that right. This represents an unfortunate misunderstanding of the word and concept of rights.
A right is something that you are entitled to regardless of law. It is a basic quality of being human. The philosophy our government is founded on is that the purpose of government is to secure those basic human rights for all of its citizens. From the homosexual perspective their lack of ability to get married is a lag in governmental recognition of their rights. The right exists independently of history (which by the way supports homosexual uniion) and independently of religious belief or law.
A right is not something given to you by the government. IT is something that is essential to your existence as a human being. Government is here to protect those rights.
Once again, this is only a religious issue within YOUR religion. Outside of that it is a philosophical issue. In the court of philosophy or logic your holy book holds no power or sway because its persuasive ability is soley based on a faith based belief in its veracity. To somebody outside of your religion the bible is not any kind of support for beliefs that they consider hostile.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memento mori, mahalo.
"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real-estate above principals."
<<<<>>>
says who? who says it your right?
Assuming that you are questioning the "right" of citizens to the institution of marriage, I will direct you to the words of the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Loving v. Virginia (1967)...
"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=...
Marriage is recognized as a fundamental right for the citizens of this country (the U.S.). As such, it must be afforded to all citizens in a manner that is free from invidiously determined classifications.
Really, the marriage issue is one that the ultra-conservatives have already lost. The adoption of full marriage rights for LGBT people in Massachusetts was the axe that chopped the head from the snake of the religious right's bigotry. It's just a matter of time now, while we wait for the headless snake to stop thrashing around and trying to bite everyone.
percivale
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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
Percivale has done a fine job of elucidating the legal precedent for a right to marriage, so allow me to answer your question with a question: do you believe that humans have rights? Where do you believe those rights come from?
A right is something that all humans have. Where do you think the rights our government protects come from? They do not come from the government.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memento mori, mahalo.
"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real-estate above principals."
R_tada_Endo, you should read my blog (it was actually a research paper) on the subject. I think you may be suprised at the fact that I remain completely objective throughout the entire paper, until the very end.
ENJOY -- If you dare!
http://www.progressiveu.org/160156-facing-same-sex-marriage
Ceila --
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ceila30
Very exhaustive research, I would give you an A+
A fact is always better than an ideal
Beautifully said Dr. Gonzo!!!!!!
Ceila --
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ceila30
R_tada_Endo writes: "if we accept people for who they are, we should accept murderers, rapist, and pretty much anyone... because that's the way they are."
I really dislike this type of reasoning. Why? Because.....who the hell are the homosexuals hurting. murderers kill SOMEONE--rapists-- rape SOMEONE-- Do you not see how this is DIFFERENT? I'm Gay and hurt no one. I live a normal life like any one else out there (and ,in all actuality, I probably live a more "sin" free life than most of those), but I HURT NO ONE. Now, tell me why I should accept less acceptance then a murderer or a rapist (at least according to the point you were trying to make)? Or explain to me why you would even put us in the same category?
Ceila --
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ceila30
Well I for one totally supporta gay rights, pretty much I'm a supporter of people and animals =]
Well anywho I was wondering my friend and some other people that I was talking to told me [I totally understand why they were telling me because well they love me and all] that I wasn't going to heaven just because I don't worship their god [sure I don't even believe in heaven I believe in something else but still] and I was like so the way into heaven it by taking in god. They were like well yeah if you dont have god you won't go to heaven and taking in god guarantees you into heaven.
thats when I was like so if a murderous, evil person did nothing but horrible evil things in their life and as they approached the end of their lives they took in god they would go to heaven as opposed to me who isn't going to heaven because I am wiccan even though [if I were to die at this point] I have done nothing but good and led a generally good life helped tons of people, done charity work, helped my community, and basically just been helpful and a good person [not to sound conceited] and on top of that been an amazing friend.
Will someone tell me how that is even fair for me?
Change is emminent lets face it the world is in for a serious awakening
Yes, we all remember our parents punishing us because they loved us. Tha'ts what parents do. A pastor or priest however is not a parent. A pastor is a just a man, and is just as weak, sinful and frail as the rest of us. His title an education do not give him the right to dicipline anyone. I have met very many well meaning Christians, good ones that really live good lives and are just all around good people, but your community as a whole has a long, long history of punishing the non-Christians around you because "it's what God wants" Have you met God personally? Did you two go out for a couple of pints and over a game of billiards he leaned over to you and said, "You know what really busts my ass? Queers." Some how I think not. So assuming that you never had a personal audience with God (and if you say you did infact hear the voice of God, then they do have medication for you), then you must be deriving your personal ideas of what God wants from you based on what you read in the bible. I know what it says, I'm a recovering catholic. You people must realize that this book was written a long time ago for a culture that no longer exists in part of the world you have probrobly never been to. How much of that do you really think is relevent to you thousands of years later in Florida? Now, one of the things that a group of very nice True Believers taught me was that God is Love. Do you agree? Doesn't that in fact make all love divine? To speak out against any expression of love that doesn't cause any one any harm is a very unchristain thing to do. Also, I don't believe the Christian community is looked to for approval every time a homosexual couple gets together, and yet, they all seem to be up for judgment and review according to what representatives of your faith are saying every day on the news. That being the case, to be fair so should you. Tell me again how it's all veiwed in God's eyes, you seem to have such a good handle on the whole of the system of things. Tell me again that Chritians don't hate homosexuals, and I'll tell you just how dielusional you really are. I've been yelled at. I've been threatened and I've been harmed by bible thumping nut jobs. My partner was killed by one. Now, individuals that engage in that kind of radical behavior hardly represent the whole of your faith, but they do mean that you cannot "speak out for Christians as a whole" on the subject of love and forgivness, because you are not all loving and you are not all forgiving. I read your book, I went to your churches and no where in any of that did anyone condone hatred and violence. All that being said, statements of absolute anything are hardly progressive, hardly thoughtful or thought inspiring. Absolute statements of right and wrong build wall between people and poison minds. I do hope this little blog has cause you to consider changing your veiws and your bent focus on what you think you know about the heart and will of an untried, unproven diety that has never talked to you personally.
Do you eat shellfish? Do you eat pork? Do you wear cotton and wool clothes in the same outfit?
Those are also forbidden in Leviticus. If not you're just as much of a hypocrite as someone who thinks that homosexuality is A-OK.
That would be a very interesting argument if God, heaven or hell existed. But seeing that they don't, and you have absolutely no proof that they do, your opinion and the word of the bible don't really have any standing here. Plus, most people who believe in God, that I know anyway, don't take it as literally as you do. And how can you support something that says women are less than men and that being black is a punishment? How can you believe in something that tells you to stone those who do wrong (according to the bible's rules) and that people should have slaves? Furthermore, how can you take the bible to be fact when it was written by men who had no knowledge of the world at all; men who thought the planet was flat, who knew nothing of dinosaurs and thought the solar system was geocentric?
--The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return--
But we as humans do.
'Thou shalt not make a graven image' applies equally to not worshiping trees, or a Book made from one.
'Love your neighbor' means what it says as does 'judge not least you be judged' If a person does the wrong thing they suffer from the result of their own actions. If there is something wrong with ANY lifestyle choice that ANY of us makes it is wrong, or right, based only upon the result it brings.
"You can tell them by their fruit. Do you pick a bunch of grapes from a thorn-bush or figs from a clump of thistles? Every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree is incapable of producing bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The tree that fails to produce good fruit is cut down and burnt. So you may know men by their fruit."
Mathew 7:15-20
A fact is always better than an ideal
> God does not make mistakes
> But we as humans do.
I mean, its pretty obvious that humans do make mistakes from time to time, but since you can not even prove that "god" exists, how can you responsibly assert that "he" does not make mistakes? In fact, if you believe that "god" made humans, and that humans are flawed, doesn't that seem like a "mistake" to you?
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
Are you a mistake?
Do you deserve to be condemned by your fellow man? Should others be allowed to judge you to be evil, or going to hell?
My position is that if you forgive others you are forgiven. If you judge others you will be judged by the same measure. If you love you will be loved, and if you hate that hate will consume you.
Could you be loved?
A fact is always better than an ideal
> Are you a mistake?
>
> Do you deserve to be condemned by your
> fellow man? Should others be allowed to
> judge you to be evil, or going to hell?
It seems to me that these are questions that you should be asking of your fellow christians, and not to me. Since I find any belief in "gods" to be at best highly improbable, it really doesn't make sense to as me whether I think that some imaginary being made a "mistake" in the act of creation which is the implied premise of your question.
> My position is that if you forgive others
> you are forgiven. If you judge others
> you will be judged by the same measure.
> If you love you will be loved, and if you
> hate that hate will consume you.
Your position as an individual is not in question, here. It is an undeniable fact that the vast majority of christian denominations and sects in the world today have adopted an official policy of discrimination against gay and lesbian people. I have never said that "all" christians participate in this discrimination...yet most do, either directly through active advocacy against us or indirectly though the tolerance of the official policies that prescribe our persecution. Those few christians who do not adhere to these policies are the exception, not the rule.
> Could you be loved?
My husband and family seem to be willing, so the answer is "yes." I am however most hesitant to accept any offer of "love" from someone who carries a book in their back pocket as a guide to life that specifically tells them that they should kill me.
percviale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
Love that you refuse, and refuse to see protects you from harm.
If thinking you are better than others because of your beliefs is necessary to your happiness go ahead. I know some others that feel the same way.
A fact is always better than an ideal
...for a good dose of being left the heck alone. And, thanks a bunch, but the "protection" that you offer doesn't seem to be worth very much to those who live their lives in a constant stuggle to escape from the clutches of well-meaning tyrants who seem to think they are better equipped to judge the nature and depth of my love for my husband, and his for me that we are.
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
You do realize he's sympathizing with you and attempting to prove your ideas of "Christians" wrong, right? He's basically said that real Christianity isn't the condemning, hypocritical assholes that you've encountered and that you should have all the same rights as anyone else, regardless of what the religious bigots say. Christianity, unfortunately, has been corrupted by the humans who have attempted to use it to gain power.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
...but I think that the attitude that chillbill exhibits represents the kind of intentional blindness that permits the discrimination that originates in these groups to continue. I also think that it is intellectually disingenous to think that you can just "re-write" a religion to reflect one's personal views. If chillbill is sympathetic, that's nice. But promoting as he does a pretend scenario of the modern religion of christianity makes that sympathy ring rather hollow.
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
I do not deny ANY SPECIFIC policy or prejudice that you site on the part of Christians. You have rationalized a few facts to support the conclusion you wanted to believe.
Here is a list of organizations that have joined your favorite scape goat in prejudicial treatment of gays:
The Atheist Government of China (illegal until 1997)
The Atheist Government of Russia (illegal until 1992)
Several African Governments (a few still have the death penalty)
Islam (The Taliban regime in Afghanistan reportedly executed homosexuals by burying them alive)
Sikhism (discouraged or actively forbidden)
Pre-Christian common law in Scandinavia harshly punished homosexual activity.
Ancient Germanic religions were condemnatory towards homosexuality.
-Against homosexuality, but more accepting.-
Dharma
Hinduism (Manu Smriti refer to both female and male homosexuality as a punishable crime)
Eastern Buddhists
Jainism
Taoic religions
All of the information above is derived fro Wikipedia. This chart seems to indicate that Christian dominated parts of the globe have less punitive laws regarding gays than some non-Christian ones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_homosexuality_laws.svg
Closer examination of laws worldwide show that Christian dominated countries are FAR MORE accepting of gays than almost any other cultures. For example in Europe the only countries with no legal protection against discrimination are Formerly Atheist eastern block nations and Islamic Turkey, this includes Vatican City.
I have never denied any persecution of gays took place. The majority of HUMAN cultures are guilty of it. In fact as you have quoted I have not denied this same behavior among Christians, most are human. You have a right to point out and oppose that behavior. You have, as I specifically pointed out, been protected as well as persecuted by Christianity. If your hate leaves you unable to do the same you are not their moral equal. Yet you claim moral superiority. That must make you feel good.
---
Percivale, was this a 'straw man' you intended me to brush aside?
"Whenever someone claims membership in an ideological sect (religious or otherwise), they are at least declaring that the support the basic policies and actions of that sect."
Are you through your membership in the Atheist ideology responsible for the actions of the Atheist governments around the world against gays? How could that be possible either way?
The persecutions of the past have always led to the next persecution as revenge. Forgiving and loving those that hate you as Jesus (point out any other beleif that says this) taught is the only way to break out of that pattern.
Reposted to gain Persivales responce.
A fact is always better than an ideal
...of these comments on a different page of this same blog...here.
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
I saw your comments on some, and thought you might have missed it.
Thankyou for your responce.
A fact is always better than an ideal
Well, thank goodness I don't believe in God. I am free to live the way I feel. And according to the bible children are innocent and don't know sin. So then when I was five giving flowers to girls and flirting was I still innocent or swayed by the devil?
"I am a Stephens Woman."
Please don't patronize us. A good number of us, although not Christians (or former Christians, or excommunicated Christians), are more than well-acquainted with the book that you hold to be the magically inerrant and infallible word of your deity of choice. We know the book, perhaps even better than you do, because we were beat repeatedly over the head with it, judged with it, condemned with it, and ostracized with it - by family members, friends, acquaintances, and quite often by complete strangers. Some of us searched that book inside and out, looking for answers to questions that had none. I know that you mean well, but I'm not quite certain just how arrogant your naivety comes across to people like ... well, like me.
Telling someone to change their sexual orientation is cruel. It's not as if a gay person wakes up one day and says, "You know what? I've just made a conscious decision to choose a lifestyle that will cause me to get beaten up by my peers, excommunicated by my house of worship, and disowned by my own family. From now on, I'm going to be afraid to let people know who I am. From now on, I'm going to hate myself because the Bible says that people like me are going to burn in hell for eternity. Yeah, that sounds like a really rewarding choice to make for my life."
You say you don't want to condemn anybody, and maybe that's true - but then you proceed to do exactly that. I've lived under the thumb of the interpretation of god that you subscribe to, and it nearly destroyed me from the inside out. The fact of the matter is that, according to that book in your hand, every human being falls short of the perfection demanded by the god of the Bible - which was precisely the reason why Jesus was required to leave heaven and come to earth. Which makes you no better than the gay person you are condemning - not meaning to condemn, of course.
What if you do not beleive in God or in any religion at all? Then is homosexuality ok? I'm sorry I am not trying to put down your religion but to me religion is a lost cause and the bible is just an interesting read. So, what you do you say to the thousands who do not believe in your God or any god at all. How do you prove your point to them?
"The only thing necessary for trimph of evil was for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
*ERICAI* >: |
My main issue with the argument over whether or not homosexuals deserve the same marriage rights as heterosexuals is that I have yet to hear or read an argument that does not use religion.
This country was founded by Christians (or at least men who believed in the Christian God), I'll give you that much. However, this country's constitution prohibits establishment of a particular religion. Not allowing homosexuals to have the same rights as heterosexuals, because of a particular religious view, is forcing homosexuals to live according to one particular religion. There are quite a few religions who support homosexual relationships and homosexuality in general. Paganism, neopaganism, Taoism (this is questionable, but homosexuality is not regarded as a sin), Buddhism, to name more major ones. (See footnote 1 for reference.)
I consider myself Christian, but I do not believe that homosexuality is wrong. Even if I did though, I would still disagree with not allowing homosexuals the same legal rights as heterosexuals. It's similar to why I am pro-choice. I would never choose abortion for myself, and would never encourage it for someone else, but I respect that women should have control over their own bodies, regardless of the consequences.
I actually believe that all secular marriages should be called civil unions. The secular government that this country supposedly has, has no right or legal basis to not allow homosexuals the same rights as heterosexuals. Let the religious groups decide for themselves. The public sector, however, should be non-discriminatory.
(1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality#Religious_suppor...
"How can yu be a christian and believe in homosexuality ?"
I noted the way you used the word "believe" in your subject, and pardon me, for this is a bit nit-picky, but of course people have to believe in it, it's out there isn't it? Of course good Christians are going to believe in it. It scares people who don't understand it, but there is no need to condemn it. Yes, they will not be "fruitful" in the way GOD meant it, but they are children of God none-the-less. Condemning them for their decisions by denying them the eternal bondage of marriage is an act strictly against Christ. Remember love one another, black or white, male or female, straight or sideways, it doesn't matter. We are all his children. So naturally a good Christian would simply pray for the best for all men and women AND THAT DOES NOT NECESSARILLY MEAN PRAYING THAT THEY CHANGE THEIR MIND. Besides, as long as you're not gettin hit on or harrassed, why bother?
Never let the world get you further down, it already has the weight of gravity on your shoulders.
your comment.
I do not agree.
Thanks to everyone who has commented.
Many of the passages taken out of context of the Bible and used against homosexuality are infact improper translations of the original Greek text, and many refer instead to ritual prostitution. See :
http://www.sigmalogobooks.com/SLB_Bible_Mistranslated.html
Being Gay is not bad or evil. People need to learn that. I don't see why everyone can't think like you =)
it really is sad for me to see conflict between homosexuals and christians. i, myself, am christian and it really bugs me when everyone claims christians to be single-minded, uncaring, rebukeful, annoying, etc. i look at the whole situation as... yes, it has been taught in the church that God frowns upon homosexuals but He could never hate a person for their choices. He has granted the world choice and thus we choose. (some may disagree that homosexuality is NOT a choice - but =) i CHOOSE to believe that homosexuality is a choice. lol)
while i may disagree with the homosexual lifestyle - i could never hate a gay/lesbian. they have just as much right to choice as i do.
i am here to tell whoever reads these comments that no, not all christians are as closed-minded as many have come to believe. i, for one, am a perfect example! =D
I have often argued that this stance is incredibly hypocritical. It's like me saying that I disagree with the Christian lifestyle. I wish that Christians would understand that the way they live their lives is bad and wrong and evil in the eyes of God, but I don't hate them and I am sorry that they'll all rot in hell for the terrible sin of choosing to be Christian.
The one difference is that Christianity is, of course, a choice.
Homosexuality doesn't make sence as a choice. Who would CHOOSE to stop being sexually attracted to the opposite sex and be sexually attracted to the same sex to live a life that people "disagree" with and face discrimination and violence from a huge portion of the society? Does that make sence to you?
BUT YOU DO HAVE TO LOVE DISCO MUSIC!
"it's silly, no? when a rocketship explodes and man still wants to fly. some say man ain't happy truly, until man truly dies. o why?"
-Prince
am i right? yeah, i'm very right.
"it's silly, no? when a rocketship explodes and man still wants to fly. some say man ain't happy truly, until man truly dies. o why?"
-Prince
>i am a christian and i completely hate it when the pastor >stands up there and says its a sin to hate but in the same >breath says that homosexuality is wrong,
yeah... when you said Pastors/christians are being hypocrites ... we aren't
i'm a christian and i don't hate anybody, but i do think homosexuality is wrong because it says so in the bible.
i'm not hating on anybody when i tell them what they are doing is wrong. it's like telling my brother or sister that stealing is wrong b/c it says so in the bible, that doesn't mean i hate them!
AND Percivale...
i'm sorry that those pple did what they did, and they know it's wrong, and they are being hypocrites, BUT jus cuz they are doesn't mean all christians are hypocrites
>Denying homosexual people rights because they are gay is >like denying women rights because they are not men or >denying black people rights because they are not white. I >see no basis in reality to say that there anything unnatural >nor immoral about being attracted to someone of the same sex.
well... homosexuality is a choice (i guess that's where we really differ)
being black or women, isn't a choice that's the way we are and we can't do anything about it... being gay is a choice.
Male and male/female and female organs don't work when having sex...
OH... i don't think gay people are bad or evil, i have some really nice gay friends, but they know how i feel about it!
If you take a brick and wrap it up in a nice, soft towel before bashing your neighbor over the head with it, it still hurts. And, dressing up intolerant and hateful opinions in pretty words and saying that the emotional violence you inflict upon the people whose discrimination you enable with your words is really "love" doesn't make the things you say any more palatable.
Also, unless you follow ALL of the biblical commandments of similar historical and textual weight with equal furvor, and judge those who do not (including yourself) with equal condemnations to that which you offer to gay people, then yes, you are being a hypocrite. The "crime" of homosexuality is defined in the bible as a specific sort of ritual impurity, known as a to'ebah.
If you eat at the same table as someone who is of another religion, you have committed a to'ebah (Genesis 43:32). If you eat shellfish, you have committed a to'ebah. (Leviticus 11:10). If you eat any number of other animals that "creep," you have committed a to'ebah (Leviticus 11:41). If you offer "god" an animal sacrifice that has a blemish or is an imperfection (granted, this one doesn't come up very often today), you have committed a to'ebah (Deuteronomy 17:1). If a woman wears pants or socks, she has committed a to'ebah (Deuteronomy 22:5). If a woman divorces and remarries her orginal husband she has committed a to'ebah (Deuteronomy 24:4).
Frankly, there are very few biblical commandments of similar charcter to the prohibition against male homosexuality in the bible that are judged as harshly as this one. And, if you really want to get technical about what the bible says, it only ever mentions male homosexuality. Female homosexuality is covered by a completely different set of terms in both ancient Hebrew and Greek, none of which ever appear in the texts. Have you ever had a shrimp? Do you think that eating shrimp is "sinful?" If you don't view eating shellfish as a "sin" of equal seriousness to being gay, then you aren't being biblically consistent at all.
I also have to take issue with your comparison of being gay to stealing. Stealing isn't "wrong b/c it says so in the bible." Stealing is an act which harms someone else. When I steal from you, I violate your rights as a citizen (and a person) to hold property. Being gay harms no one, and it is monumentally insulting to have one's loving relationship compared to the actions of a theif. If you don't see the "hate" in that, then you must be really naive.
> i'm sorry that those pple did what they did, and
> they know it's wrong, and they are being hypocrites,
> BUT jus cuz they are doesn't mean all christians
> are hypocrites
I never said that all christians are hypocrites. I purposefully refrain from that kind of exaggerated hyperbole. What I said is that it isn't very difficult to point out the way that most christians who make a big deal about homonsexuality are being hypocritical, because they are willing to condemn gay people for violating a code of behavior while simultaneously excusing themselves from select passages in that same code.
> well... homosexuality is a choice (i guess that's
> where we really differ)
Unfortunately (for you), the idea that homosexuality is a "choice" isn't really an opinion that can be objectively supported. The science on this matter is quite conclusive. The "homosexuality is a choice" point-of-view is nothing more than the latest example of the christian religion resisting scientific knowlenge that contradicts its dogma. It is no different than when the church was burning people at the stake for saying that "the earth is round, not flat" and "the earth does not sit on a fixed point at the center of the universe."
There comes a point when you have to accept the evidence, and on the evidence that human sexuality is primarily an inborn trait is rather overwhelmingly conclusive. The anti-gay religios are just a few steps behind the marginalized idiocy of flat-earthers and young-earth creationsists.
> being black or women, isn't a choice that's the way
> we are and we can't do anything about it... being
> gay is a choice.
Again, this opinion is simply not supported by the science. From and American Psychological Association's Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality...
Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
"No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed."
http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html
This posistion is consistently held throughout the relevant disciplines of medicine, psychology, psychiatry and sociology. I wrote a blog about the basic positions and extant research for convenience sake...
What most doctors say about homosexuality: A collection of policy statements by the major professional associations
http://www.progressiveu.org/132044-what-most-doctors-say-about-homosexua...
> Male and male/female and female organs
> don't work when having sex...
Whoever told you that was doing it wrong.
> OH... i don't think gay people are bad or evil,
> i have some really nice gay friends, but they
> know how i feel about it!
I can't really speak for your "friends" (though I question how you can be friends with someone for whom you show so little respect as a human being). But, your words here are directly contradictory to your stated opinion. If you believe that being gay is biblically "wrong," then you are equating being gay to a "sin" and "sin" is (in christian theology) an expression of evil. You might not be willing to treat your friends poorly to thier faces, but when you spread the idea that thier lives are inherently "wrong," you are betraying your friends by attacking their lives and enabling the movment which would deny them the most basic rights of citizenship.
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
The whole 'born gay/gay by choice' is actually quite irrelevant. I actually believe that some folks are born gay. I also believe that some folks (most, actually) are born murders...or atleast VERY capable of big time assault and battery. I also believe that some folks are born being attracted to young children. As, I believe that some folks (again, most) are born with the ability to steal...God even told us that mankind is a fallen creature born into sin. We HAVE to choose to make the right decisions. We have to CHOOSE to ignore our sinful nature and live a rightous life as best we can. NOBODY is perfect, but some of us do strive to be the best we can.
The only comparison between homosexuality and the other sins listed is that we are all sinful by nature, we have to choose to not be sinful.....Each and every one of us, each and every day....
An a practical level, I agree that "it doesn't matter" whether or not someone is "born gay" or "chooses to be gay." The fundamental rights of citizens are not subject to judgments of this sort, and unless you can demonstrate that a person's behavior actually infringes upon the rights of someone else, then there is no justification for limiting those rights.
On a philosophical level, however, I think that this question is very significant, not because of the question itself--I mean, there really isn't any question (at least among the reasonably well-informed) that the primary factor in determining one's sexuality is biological in nature--but rather because it says something about those who cling to the opinion that sexual orientation is a matter of conscious choice. Such folks are at best woefully misinformed, and at worst making a conscious choice themselves to ignore the more than convincing evidence that should be enough to demonstrate to them that their beliefs are without any real, factual basis.
As for those who turn to "biblical in errancy" as an argument to avoid recognizing the scientifically demonstrable truths in the world around them, I can only say this: The world isn't flat and doesn't sit on a fixed point at the center of the universe, snakes don't eat dirt, and its time that you drug yourselves out of the dark ages and came to grip with there are things in the book you call the bible that are (despite the fingers in the ears and "la la la" of your denials) simply not true, and it paints a very unflattering and frankly primitive picture of your religion to continue to cling frantically to ideas that have been so clearly proved to be false.
And, it is interesting to note that it is only possible to condemn male homosexuality with the "bible-is-inerrant" argument (and even that believe can be argued down pretty easily if you're familiar with the original language and cultural context of the books of Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Judges, Kings, Romans, Corinthians and Timothy). Lesbianism is never mentioned in the bible, and Jewish scholars as early as the 3rd Century were recording opinions that female homosexuality is permissible.
Its nice that you're willing to "live and let live," and in the less than perfect world that we live in, I'm certainly willing to shake hands and accept that as a reasonable compromise. But, I really must take issue with your on-going comparison of gay people to murderers and other violent criminals. Such comparisons demonstrate a rather mean-spirited lack of intelligent consideration, and unless you can demonstrate how the being gay somehow violates the personhood of others in a similar manner, it is very difficult to accept that your comments are anything more than thinly veiled religious bigotry.
percivale
-------------------------
"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.
So are you saying that people should ignore their instincts and live a life filled with lies and no true love? Gay people can't just turn off their feelings. You can't help who you fall for. And people are much happier when they follow their heart.
"I am a Stephens Woman."
Of Course, look how happy Ted Haggard turned out to be -- doing cocaine and sleeping with male prostitutes -- sounds like he was a very content and happy man. *note major sarcasim * LMAO
Ceila --
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ceila30
So I've been reading comments all along and this is the first one that actually kind of makes me laugh. Well besides the Disco one.
"Male and male/female and female organs don't work when having sex..."
Perhaps homosexuality isn't just about sex. However, if you do believe it is just sex than I guess I can see how you would think homosexuality is a choice. Just as some people choose to have sex tied up, dressed up, or with toys or animals.
Homosexuality is not just about sex though. It is two people falling in love, souls connecting, an intimate connection between to human beings, just as in heterosexual relationships.
Also, there is no divide here. I am not a Christian who is "okay" with homosexuals but not okay with their lifestyle. I am Christian. I am supportive of homosexual relationships and would be okay being in one if the opportunity ever arose.
I have a question for all the "Christians" that have been responding though. Without the Bible, how would you know that you were a Christian? Are your beliefs based on a book or is the book based on your beliefs?
I would like to think that someone who has given any thought to their religious beliefs and the motivations behind them, would be able to hold their beliefs and support them with or without a book.
And would their argument not be stronger if "because the Bible says so" wasn't their only argument?
"I have a question for all the "Christians" that have been responding though. Without the Bible, how would you know that you were a Christian? Are your beliefs based on a book or is the book based on your beliefs?"
Throughout history, before and after the Bible, there has been documentation of people who witnessed of a faith in a monotheistic creator, a God, loving, giving many chances. The Bible, as you more than likely know, is divided into the Old Testament, which chronicles those times, and the New Testament, which tells of the birth, life, and death of Jesus Christ, said to be God's only son, come to save the world from sin and offer new life. I like to think that my beliefs are based on a book --and-- that the book is based on my beliefs. I would probably eventually come to this faith without the Bible, but I will honestly say that its presence in my life has influenced my decisions and my faith. It was written by men with faith in God, about their beliefs and supposedly what they were told by God.
I personally believe that homosexuality is a sin and I do not agree with the lifestyle. However, stealing is also a sin. Lying. Cheating. Lusting. I have been guitly of many sins in my life, and I believe in forgiveness of these sins. I love homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. I cannot honestly tell you if homosexuality is right or wrong-- I do not claim to be God. I feel as though it is a lifestyle not to be dabbled in, but that choice is your own and between you and God.
The Compassionate Moderate
God is a Spirit not a Book
A fact is always better than an ideal
>>>i do think homosexuality is wrong because it says so in the bible.
Well, the bible also says women are less than men. That women should stand while the men eat, that they should cover their heads and avert their eyes and walk behind their husbands in public. Do you think that those practices are righteous? Do you live your life that way? If you don't then by all means keep your feelings of prejudice against gay people, even continue to argue your point, but do NOT continue to use the bible as ammo or as a shield, because to weild weapons, first you need a leg to stand on.
>>>Male and male/female and female organs don't work when having sex
What a terribly ignorant thing to say. Are you so sure? Have you ever tried it? Do you know a few gay couples who are terribly dissatisfied with their sex lives. Has anyone ever heard a lesbian say, "Oh, sure I love Julie, and I'm even willing to put up with all the difficulty of be hated for my lifestyle, but you know, she's just not properly equiped to satisfy me in bed."? Nope, I haven't heard that one anywhere.
~I should have ducked~
Interesting that you say male/male and female/female organs don't work when having sex.
I'm assuming that you are referring to penile/vaginal sex, which of course does not work with two men or two women.
However, other types of sex exist. There's anal intercourse (which works quite well for two men), oral sex (which works well for just about any combination), and there's always masturbation (sometimes referred to as self-sex), mutual masturbation, and any other myriad of things.
So, actually, the organs do work. You just have to think about more than one type of sex.
The only thing that is a choice is whether or not to admit you are gay. Do you choose who you fall in love with? No, it just happens. Love happens, and if any superior being said that loving a certain person was wrong, than why would that feeling arise? Why would this almighty and all-giving God smite some people into hiding their inner (gay) selves just so they can follow the unclearly written word. Just stop judging everyone, keep your religion to yourself, and let people live their lives happily. No one is sure what happens after this life, so why live it worrying about death and the afterlife? I say live, laugh and love ANYONE that your heart calls to.
everything you do, is pretty much a chose
why would that feeling arise?
well... of course there is always temptation to do the wrong thing (we call him the devil in christianity... that's why there is sooo much bad things in the world)
i can't keep my religion to myself because it says to spread the word in the bible.
OH, and i'm VERY sure that there life after death... i don't believing that there is a God... I KNOW there is God. because a lot of supernatural things have happened in front of my eyes... it's on tape too!