I was talking about an incident that happened last school year with my friend and came to a few unexpected conclusions. Here's the incident:
Last year, some of my guy friends and I would play hack outside during study hall and lunch. One of them wanted to get more height, so he suggested jumping off of someone. I got down on my hands and knees and let him step on me to get more height. Well, this, of course, led to several inappropriate jokes. One of the boys said "No, wait, stay down there" giggles from others "I want to try." My friend Wes said, "Wow, he's still talking about hack while the rest of us are just making dirty jokes about Coral." I laughed and said, "Well, you can't blame him. I'm just so darn cute and innocent." The boy laughed and then said, "Yeah if you think Betty Boop is innocent."
Alright, basic high school bull. Nothing out of the ordinary. Except for my reaction. It used to be that if a boy referenced a girl in a sexual way that she would get offended. I was pleased that these boys were thinking of me that way. And, no, I'm not promiscuous. Still a virgin, and I've only had one serious boyfriend and I broke up with him because he was annoying. But still, I was proud of the fact that they thought of me as a sexual object. My rational mind is reeling, because I'm quite the little feminist, but I'm not going to lie and say that I was pissed. In fact, it made my week that they said that.
Why? I hang out with mostly boys and listen to some pretty degrading talk about myself. I dish it right back, but most would think that a girl like me would just avoid those situations. Truth be told, they make me feel good about myself. I want to know why this is. As soon as a boy touches me, I flip out and will either hit him or cuss him out, but talk can be almost as bad as touching, depending on what they're saying.
What I think is this: society has conditioned us not to mind. You've stopped seeing girls get offended by lewd remarks on TV and have started seeing them smiling sassily and winking or batting their eyelashes. Hell, it used to be that a girl'd get offended by an accidental double entendre or an insinuation. Now they make a girl laugh and feel liked.
What's missing is respect. There's no more respect for women. In any era one can take note of that lack of respect. We weren't thought to be as smart as males, as capable, as strong physically (which is predominantly true, but we're not frail flowers, either,) or as competent. Today we're nearly equals (there's some inequality in wages, etc.) but there's not the least bit of respect left. We were disrespected before by men and some really lame women who thought we weren't as good as men. Now that's evolved into something different, but with the same undertones. We're as good at them as everything else, and now we're being disrespected by chauvanistic sex addicts. I realize this, but I don't mind it. I think that's because I want to feel like I'm still a girl. That a guy can still want me, even though I'm equal to him in everything.
Girls act dumb for attention and so that guys won't be intimidated. Do I let myself be degraded in a different way for the same results?
A very interesting post. I think many feminists would push all the blame for a situation like this onto the guys, but a lot of blame still rests with girls. We put up with it because we want to be noticed. We used to be noticed by being treated like the "weaker sex" -- doors opened for us, coats dropped in the mud for us so we won't dirty our shoes, lifting heavy loads for us, that kind of thing -- but now, with all of that chivalry gone, we have to seek attention where we can get it. What kind of attention is better?
That's a balance that I don't think a lot of people know how to maintain. Certainly not me. I think it's difficult with all the ideals that media portrays to even know that there has to be a balance.
If one of the guys had done the same thing as you, do you think no one would make lewd remarks at him? O.o
It didn't sound to me like they were treating you without respect. They were just joking around. Take offense at things that are actually meant to be offensive.
I wasn't offended. That was the point. And no, no one (probably) would've made those remarks because boys generally don't make those remarks about one another. And, how many times do you see a girl say to a guy "On your knees..."
Now, as a guy I do notice that a lot of derogatory things are said and lewd acts are performed in everyday life where the act itself is meant to demean a woman. In your case however, I believe that it was a for fun thing only. The reason why you felt good about it was MAYBE because you just enjoyed a good joke with the guys and it stuck with you the whole week due to it's unusualness? Either way, the way we react to these types of things are mostly connected with what the rest of society thinks because that is how we as humans naturally are. Most of these things are basically up to your own interpretation.
Oh, I realize they were joking around, and yeah, I laughed with them. But that's not the only time stuff like that happened. It was an every day occurence. I didn't really mind, because, yeah they were just joking around. But it leads to more:
As a joke, my friend through a penny at my chest in an effort to get it down my shirt. He was completely psyched when he succeeded. I just rolled my eyes and said "cut it out." Then, pretty randomly considering I had just met the guy, another boy actually reached into my shirt to pull out the penny. Needless to say I started flipping out and swearing at him, etc. It's fine to have a good joke, but everyone needs to be able to differentiate what's okay and what's not. Some people can't do that, so it worries me when these jokes are constantly prevalent. It desensitizes people to what's indecent.
I think the guys were more just joking around than being disrespectful. Good post though.
“I hope the departure is joyful and I hope never to return.” - Frida Kahlo
I think we should regress to the beginning
Yeah, they were joking around, and I was okay with that. But it can lead to more, as mentioned in the above reply.
On some level I agree with you that girls can be treated poorly, but from my experience, girls near me put themselves into these situations. I don't go and hang out with girls that I know are going to talk sexually about me if it makes me uncomfortable. Do women deserve to be treated this way? Generally no, but I know plenty of girls who dumb themselves down and that is quite irritating to me. At the same time, there is something to be said of the new brand of elitist feminism. I believe feminism has really crossed the border to where it is very anti-men. I do not find that to be appropriate. If men started an anti-women club, it would be banned. Not so for anti-men groups.
Ross Kressel
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/rosskressel
Haven't you heard of the "He-man Womun Haters Club"? Just kidding!!!! No, I understand what you're saying, and there's a difference between feminists and man-haters. I've never heard of an actual anti-men group. That's interesting. It's just another form of discrimination. You can't help being what you're born as, and there's nothing wrong with being a guy. Can you give some examples of theses groups? I want to read up on them.
Well, there are girls that do bring it up to themselves but there are also guys who are complete jerks and take things to the next level. I personally see that as a joke as what they said and it's good that you didn't flip out because they didn't continue to talk dirty (atleast that is how it sounds like). Either way, girls shoudn't be disrespected. They never did anything to be lower than men.
=D
Then in the same respect, guys should not be assumed to be perverted and assumed to do a lot of other things that are stereotyped.
Ross Kressel
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/rosskressel
I don't think that Kaze was implying that men should be disrespected. Men aren't assumed to be perverted, either. SOME guys are jackasses. Some women are pseudo-dumb skanks. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant.
=D
I know what you mean, but unfortunatley, this world has too many people who judge and don't think before they talk and it's tearing this all of us apart.
=D
Our society has definitely conditioned us not to mind dirty jokes. I am guilty of laughing at "That's what she said" jokes, and I say "your mom" a lot more than I really should, and I think that is OK most times. But I know there is a line, and most people don't. I don't think your friends crossed that line, and I don't think you think that either. They were joking with you, jokes that maybe aren't REALLY OK, but today they are. You have to take everything in context. Men are very disrespectful to women in general, and many of the jokes made today could easily be taken offensively, but most guys don't mean anything by it, they just want to be laughed at. It is when they start saying it and not laughing that it is truly disrespectful. That is when we must take offense and take action. As for jokes, if they offend you, speak up, but if they don't, don't be ashamed to laugh, they didn't mean anything by it anyway.
-Anne Michelle
You've made the best point thus far, I believe. Context changes. I'll make a point to remember that.
"As for jokes, if they offend you, speak up, but if they don't, don't be ashamed to laugh, they didn't mean anything by it anyway."
What you find funny may hurt me, will you not stand up for me? And who will stand up for you when you are the butt of the joke?
I understand that this whole thing was all in good fun, but as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. They were going for a laugh, but in the process they were objectifying women. I'm sure you could say they are good guys and they respect women, but I would say their humor reveals their true (or at least subconscious) feelings toward women. Living in this society, we all breath in the smog of bigotry and we all have a slight bias in favor of men. Making these kinds of jokes in the best possible scenario, does nothing to fix the situation. In the worst, and most common scenario, it adds to and spreads the smog.
Imagine what a young girl must think when she sees an older female being demeaned and enjoying it. Now she believes that is what she is supposed to be like, she is supposed to be an object to satisfy men. Will she grow up dreaming of being a doctor, lawyer, professor, athlete, or other male dominated professional?
These kinds of jokes, which always appear harmless, maintain the status quo.
Perhaps some people think women are completely liberated. Really? You've never heard a women complain about her weight, breasts, butt, etc? Who do you think set those standards that women judge themselves by? MEN. Men define women's ideal of beauty.
I'm ranting...sorry.
What I'm about to say will most definitely expose me as the upper-middle income, Caucasian, male dirt bag that I am. It's a novel idea, and basically tangentially related to the original post, but: every group is somehow discriminated against. Even more so historically. Until we all transcend the trappings of our mortal bodies and merge back into a non-dualistic existence, tension and difference will keep existing. It's just the nature of this world of relativity.
This could primarily be because of the need of a self to identify that which is similar and that which is different. Differences exist. I don't care. If a woman can do the job, let her have it. If a guy applies for the same position but is more qualified, let him have it. If a black guy applies for the same position, but doesn't have the credentials of either the other guy or the other girl, then tough luck... come back when you've got more skill points.
Is the solution hypersensitivity and demand for reparation or progressive movement into a better future? Who knows. I guess that's just a longer way of saying 'why can't we all just get along'? As for no harm being the best possible scenario?? That's a joke, right? The best possible scenario is that the shared experience of a laugh and the subsequent rush of endorphines allows a deeper bonding to take place between two different kinds of humans who now share a positive memory. Or maybe they need to sit in diversity training for the next 3 weeks until they repent, realize the error of their ways, and have voluntary sex-change operations so they can tip the scales more in the favor of the Female Race by joining them? It's beyond my expertise to know for certain.
As for the sexual joke... I think, in a group of guy friends, if a guy were to get down on his hands and knees that there'd be even more joking than in the case of a girl. Let's say there are 3 guys. The jumper, the stool, and the observer. Comedic gold: jumper asks stool to get on his hands and knees, observer comments how he doesn't need a replay of what the two of them did last night, that sticking to basketball would be better. Queue the laugh track.
Now, Miss Original Poster, to the subject of feelings of flattery versus righteous indignation: sexuality is a natural part of the human experience. People want other people. People want to be wanted by other people. If you mostly hang out with guys, there may be some sort of latent desire to be seen as attractive in a non-friend kind of way. Not that you hope anything happens, but it lets you know that you're desirable for multiple reasons--friendship, sex, etc.
Aaaaand, wrapping up this long, throbbing rant of a post (sorry, couldn't resist... hope nobody's offended), I don't believe there to be an underlying disrespect for girls in modern society. Society is on a trend of opening up and becoming more liberal (in some matters). A part of this is pushing the envelope. Some girls who may not have much going for them (or, probably, feel that they don't) are able to resort to more drastic means for attention and feelings of worth. Actions which aren't respectable don't elicit the response of respect. Someone without self-respect doesn't tend to get the respect of others. It's not so much a trend of disrespect as it is a trend of disrespectability.
I understand where you're coming from. I don't think that it's unacceptable to joke. Hell, I do it too. It just suprised me that my reaction was what it was, because I'd be the type to get offended at some of the things they were saying. I think that you're right- there are differences in the world, they'll never go away, but tolerance is becoming more prevalent. I don't think that a woman who is less qualified should get the job for satisfying quotas. Same goes for any other minority. What I want is equality. Our society is biased towards men, like you said, but that's wrong. Say what you will, bias will happen and it'll never stop, but to be immediately biased in favor of someone because of their sex, race, level of beauty, whatever is wrong. Desicions should be based upon qualifications and characteristics that pertain to the situation.
I may just be naive, but I've never discriminated against anyone based on anything other than their ability. I've met brilliant girls and guys of any random color, economic status, educational background, etc. At the same time, I've met people that are so stupid that the protein wasted in the sperm to create them is a pure shame. So is the fact that these slack-jawed idiots are running around, wasting oxygen, creating carbon dioxide, and armed with a functional reproductive system.
Are there really that many people that discriminate? Hell, I don't even know why I used that word. Discrimination is good. If there weren't discrimination, you'd not think twice about swapping spit with the greasy freak with cold sores all over his mouth and be left wondering why you have a batch of sores all to yourself as a result.
If people worry about themselves and their actions, things have a tendency to work out. Make life more fun than constant complaining how 'The Man' has been holding them down their whole life, and that's why they're selling crack on the street to pay for their 8 illegitimate children.
Yay for stereotypes :-)
Rant away! I certainly don't mind.
You bring up several interesting points. The one that caught my attention the most, though, was what you said about men defining women's standards of beauty. I think that's partly true, and I also think Hollywood has a lot to do with it. And, of course, there are women who spread the lie that thin is inherent to beauty. (You guessed it, I'm chubby : P) But I think that main-stream beauty is the to attempt to allure the opposite sex. There are guys who like different things, but when a woman says she wants to be beautiful, she means attractive to the opposite sex. She doesn't mean beautiful like artwork or a novel (although there are people who have that type of surreal beauty that's pretty much beyond the physical.) So, really, men set the standard of beauty for women by default, and women set the men's standards. Sometimes what a guy likes sucks, but that's his preference.
This sounds like a pretty tame incident. I hang out with mostly guys, and have heard much worse things said. Personally, I don't mind it when guys make jokes about sexual things, in fact I normally join in. I love that my guy friends are willing to say things like that in jest and that they don't clean up their acts when I'm around. I'm glad to hear that you didn't get offended by their comments. It means you can take a joke and that you have enough self-confidence and self-worth that you don't need their constant admiration and approval to feel good about yourself.
An incident like the one you mentioned in a later reply about a guy reaching down your shirt is a much different situation. Its fine for a guy to kid about wanting to motorboat me if I'm wearing a low-cut shirt. It is absolutely not ok for him to start reaching down it.
I love hanging out and just being one of the guys. I tend not to be as close friends with girls because girls play mind games, say things behind each other's back, hold grudges forever, etc. Guys are usually pretty straightforward and the ones I hung out with always kept everything out in the open. I'm not much of a girly-girl; I'd rather play volleyball than go shopping, I'd rather drink a beer than a cosmo, and I'd rather watch Kill Bill than The Notebook. I used to get offended by comments, but I've pretty much heard it all now. Nothing phases me, and I actually like being able to get a rise out of guys when I say something completely raunchy and unexpected.
The thing that does still bother me is the inevitable retort "you're just a woman". When guys realize they're wrong they always use that excuse. I hate being immediately dismissed or discredited because of my sex.
I agree with everything you said. I just wanted to note the way society has
changed. Fifty years ago, girls like me would've been sluts and the boys I hang out with would've been sexual harassers and perverted miscreants. And yeah, that was a tame example, but my reaction to it was probably the highest. My friends have dragged me behind trees and pretended to screw me before. And then there's the time I spilled something on myself at lunch and it dried white and crusty. : ) I'm not even going to go into it. I suppose the reason I picked that story was because it was so unexpected from the guy who said it.
I don't think they've ever dismissed me for being a woman before. I think that may be because I'm smarter than them and wouldn't hesitate to put them in their places. I love my guy friends, but they can be real dumbasses.
I have noticed that more and more women are becoming more comfortable dishing it out as well as taking these kinds of comments. In this way, I tend to feel that women are being treated more equally now than in the past when there was a "way" in which one was supposed to talk to a woman.
My question is couldn't we all be equal be treating everyone with respect? It just seems kind of warped to me, the level to which we take the jokes. Although, I honestly don't care, because I do it too.
My question is couldn't we all be equal be treating everyone with respect? It just seems kind of warped to me, the level to which we take the jokes. Although, I honestly don't care, because I do it too.
Holy macrle! You sound like Dominique in the Fountainhead. To a tee, almost.
I made as well make reference to the scene where Howard Roark rapes her and she digs it. Shit makes me cringe.
Thank you for the thought provoking post and whatnot.
Every organism's heartbeat holds a universe of beauty at http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/green-underbelly
Hehe, it's going to take a long time for the world to just let things be and see all humans as equal. I personally don't see what is so hard about people seeing others as lower as them. I men we all basically look the same, ok, maybe we don't but that's besides the point. The only real thing that separates us is skin color and that shouldn't be a big deal. Skin color doesn't make some smart and some others total idiots. As for gender, there is nothing different if you're a man or a woman. whoever thought that there was a difference then they must have been really stupid because I bet there are women that could do a hell of a lot better job at surgery than I'll ever be me. They'll probably even be better at being bosses for businesses and such. The idea of thinking that humans aren't equal by any kind is just stupid and should stop.
=D