Being born in a Christian family, I have always attended church and Sunday school. Learning all about the bible and God. By the age of six I finished reading the bible, and I knew more about God than the average Christian, though my thinking of God was still limited, since my seven-year-old brain’s thinking was limited to thinking inside the box. As I grew up, and started to learn new things, not just about God, but about this world that we live in, taking AP classes in high school and doing outside of school research to further my knowledge about life, about all sorts of sciences and learning other people’s opinions. I learned about many things form the photons, to calculus, to evolution, to black holes. Furthering my knowledge was probably a good thing, but what it has done to my faith, couldn’t be too good.
After graduating high school, I continued going to church with my family, but have always had my unshared doubts about god, with many questions going on in my mind such as did God create the world or was it the Big Bang? Or was the Big Bang God’s work? How long was the week of God’s creation? Was it the 24 hours multiplied by seven that we experience in today’s world, or was it the fraction of the Dinosaurs’ 18 hour long day.. But it couldn’t have been too short, since humans have existed for such an unbelievably short amount of time compared to everything else going on in the world before humans.
Then I think about how 90% of today’s religious leaders are millionaires (according to a poor religious man) and why these men aren’t helping out the hungry or the poor or the sick, is their faith just a trick for my money?
Then I think of how long the bible has been around, and how its content could have been so easily lost in translation during the dark ages, and then edited by these rich religious men between the numerous languages in today’s world.
I could continue my philosophy, but I could have a whole book written about it by the time I get done (if I do get done).
My issue is that I still feel religious, and do not think that I will ever become an atheist, no matter how much I think, but there is always this doubt in the back of my mind.
Should I stop learning about God or our world? Because so far, I can’t become deeply involved in one while still learning about the other one that’s causing the doubts. How do I deal with this “catch 22”?
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
If someone you know would tell you he has been on a trip into the past and future.
Would you believe it (him)?
If yes, why?
If no, why?
No, I wouldn't believe them because traveling in time can occur, though it would destroy the entire universe (not making a joke, this is fact). I think that I am still alive, so the universe is not destroyed.
What's your point?
You are asking interesting questions, my point is to show you a direction in order to find an answer to these questions yourself.
This will be more helpful in a sense that you won’t fill yourself with fear before or after finding the answer.
The reason why there is something itching in the back of your mind is because you are using your brain, most people don’t because they hardly ever question anything!
Would you like to find out more about the who you are and the possibilities you carry inside yourself?
But not always pointless. I think english is not a first language.
If you think of God and the Truth as synonyms and admit that you do not fully grasp either your dilema may be lessend. If you believe in an all powerful God how does that God differ from the full Truth?
The Truth is what it is and always has been, the "Alpha and the Omega."
To consider the question you have to separate it from any claimed atributes of either. Repent means literaly to "look and look again" or constantly reevaluate what you think is true.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
Real kind gesture from your part and much appreciated,
;-)
I think you should totally devote yourself to science and logical thinking because for me, in the end, it convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists. Knowing the facts for yourself creates a faith that is hard to break. I may not be able to argue as eloquently as some atheists but through all of my minds logical conclusions I know that what I know is the truth. The thing is that if you don't research it yourself then you're just believing blindly. That works for some people, but if you're like me, then you HAVE to know something definite to believe it honestly in your heart. Wishing the best of luck and just a hint, don't believe what your science teacher tells you is true without researching the facts for yourself... ie. things like the age of the earth and stuff like that...
P.S. if there's a topic about God, you're sure to have a comment from Darwin's Beagle if he catches a whiff of it. I think his name is self explainitory as to his views... he'll try to argue you in circles in order to divert your view from the roots of the matter... believe me I had a debate with him! I would present cold hard facts about eternity and then he'd change the subject to everyday things. It's basically pointless to argue with someone like that, especially online!
-Cheez Out-
Here is the debate we had. I'll leave it for anyone interested to judge who was addressing facts and who was arguing in circles.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
I think that being smart about the world that you live in now is one of the most important things you can try to do. If, like cheezemistro, it leads you to a greater beilief in god, that's great. If, like myself, it leads you to atheism, then don't worry. It's not going to make you into some empty shell of imorality.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
I have to admit that i understand where you are coming. I am very religious and hate to admit that doubts about God have crossed my mind a few times. Of course i belive in God and Jesus but what you learn about in school somtimes contradict what the bible tells you. On the other my faith is so strong that nothing can make me not believe and my faith alone is what lets me know there is a higher power. there is nothing wrong with believing in God and believing that after death there is a better life for some of us.
Liv Life Your Way
When being part of a world that caries as much magic and wonder, there is no room or need for logical thinking because it doesn’t fit in. It has no meaning when wondering outside that box were all reason becomes a part of your experience.
What you know, is what you believe to know based on facts that are to be found within the boundaries of your thinking!
What I was trying to explain is that something has been kept away from humanity since a very long time, something so amazing it exceeds all comprehension. The reason why even in today it is still been kept out of vision is because it answers all of your questions instantly.
The good part of it all, is that no one can keep you or anyone else from reaching out for it!
They can’t, although they try with any means possible, the egg that has been build around our lives and the ones of our relatives that are no longer is starting to burst and it shows in more than one way.
The only thing that is clouding vision is a combination of fear and doctrine.
I’m not necessarily pointing to religious doctrine but the doctrine that has reduced your dreams to something unreal and therefore unreachable.
Many are looking in the wrong direction, a direction they are all pushed to keep looking while it is all much closer than one might think of.
There is no reason why you should have to choose between religion and knowledge.
Some people assume that everyone falls into neat little categories and every belief they have is defined by what category they fall into. In the real world, you'll find that people are pretty complex and you can't assume that their beliefs will all fit nicely into one category or another.
Your questions about religion and science are a good example. Too many people assume that scientists are all atheists and that those who are devoutly religious are purposfully ignorant of all things dealing with science. Believing in God does not mean that you should disregard scientific knowledge just because it might not coincide with your faith. Understanding science and believing those facts does not make you an atheist and it does not mean that you should abandon your faith. Seeking knowledge about the natural world does not mean that you cannot be religious. While science does help some people decide that they are atheists, for others it solidifies their faith.
Your thoughts about the texts of holy scriptures today and the scrupulousness of religious leaders are also nothing to be ashamed of. It's hard not to look around today's world and question things like that. If anything, I believe your doubts and questions are good because they show that you aren't willing to blindly accept everything you're told. You can think for yourself and come to your own conclusions based on your personal beliefs.
In the end, you can't turn to other people to decide what you should believe and how your beliefs should mix. Others can give you advice and help you focus your thoughts and ideas, but it's up to you to make the real decisions. You may decide to lean more towards faith or more towards knowledge. Or, like many people, you may decide to do your own thing and combine the two. While it may be confusing, I'm sure you'll be able to find what you're comfortable with eventually.
Ahh, after reading all of these replies, I would like to lighten up the mood.
Here's a link to something that comedian Dane Cook had said in one of his stand ups about atheists, and I find it very funny, and I'll probably use it on an atheist one day:
I am a strong atheist. Interestingly, even though I grew up in a very religious household, I didn't. I was a firm believer ... at age 5. I developed an inordinate interest in science as a kid and by high school I was an atheist. I can't say that any one thing convinced me, nor can I even pinpoint the time I first knew I was an atheist. It just didn't matter that much to me. I would classify myself at that time as a pretty weak atheist.
It wasn't until after graduate school and I had some time that I decided to really give religion a fair shot. I decided to read the bible looking for any signs of supernatural knowledge within it. I didn't find anything. Nada. Zilch. But I did find a lot that could only be put down to error by a people with a relatively primitive knowledge of the world The result was so strong and somewhat unexpected (since I had been told all my life how wonderful the book was) at that point I really became a strong atheist. I saw that God had absolutely no message for us. With that insight everything fell into place ... the reason God has no message for us is because he doesn't exist.
The problem of evil disappears. We don't have to worry about a God who could prevent tsunamis and earthquakes but wont. Tsunamis and earthquakes happen because that is the way the world is. There is no intent in it. It just happens.
Interestingly, I found that completely liberating. The world is my oyster to make of it what I can. It is overall a wonderful place with abundant opportunities. There is enough opportunities so that everybody by simply determining what is important to them, can find meaning and purpose in life. The fact that this is the only life you will ever get makes it just that much more important to living it the best way you know how. Don't hope for a better life after you die, make this one a great one.
I discussed this with a number of people and was surprised by their actions. Atheists tended to express relief that others found the same thing. Theists seemed to react as though not only was I throwing away my life but I was somehow putting theirs at risk as well.
Then I became acquainted with creationists and their absolutely dishonest arguments. I was appalled by the way that REASONABLE Christians gave undue respect to absolutely ludicrious arguments, for no other reason than the person sincerely believed in God. To me we weren't even talking about God, we were talking about biology, astronomy, and geology. My benighted neglect of religion changed into a feeling that religion was not only wrong, it perhaps dangerously wrong.
Then came 9/11. And I sat at my television becoming more and more appalled at people saying that we need more religion in this world. Religion was the cause of it.
Since then I have made it a point to become knowledgable about the religion that affects me most ... Christianity. I have read evangelical and critical scholars. I have read several different versions of the bible. I have read the non-canonical texts concerning Jesus. I have looked at as many arguments for and against God's existence as I could. I have debated as many people as I could who expressed their relgious beliefs in a reasonable manner. I have tried my best to evaluate the arguments looking at evidence for AND against them. I have come to the point where I think that overall, at this point of our existence, religion is more of a negative than it is a plus.
I didn't have a great deal of angst dealing with my atheism. However, I certainly can understand how having doubts about something that you had at one time considered foundational in your life could cause angst. I just want you to know that contrary to what a lot of theists tell you, some people find living without a God to be a more meaningful, happier life than living with one. I hope you reconsider your choice to not consider atheism, but if you don't ... I hope you find a solution that leads to a good and happy life.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
"The problem of evil disappears." "I hope you find a solution that leads to a good and happy life." "religion is more of a negative than it is a plus." "living without a God to be a more meaningful, happier life" "living without a God to be a more meaningful, happier life than living with one." "that religion was not only wrong, it perhaps dangerously wrong." "can find meaning and purpose in life." "It is overall a wonderful place with abundant opportunities." "I saw that God had absolutely no message for us" ... Ok... I think that's enough quotes for now. Ok according to your premise that there is no God then all of these statements should be relative cuz there is no right or wrong, good or bad, happy or unhappy. Well to try to argue your point, you made these all as concrete statements of facts. You just contradicted yourself HUGELY!
"Don't hope for a better life after you die, make this one a great one." Well sorry to bust everyone's bubble but that's pretty shallow thinking. That's basically saying, "You have no eternal purpose so try to have fun.". You can't after saying that say that you want to do "good"(I dared you before Darwin and I dare you now to try and define that word...) for humanity because everyone's going to die anyways to we all might as well have fun. Just run around and do as you please. That completely takes out your precious idea that atheists are "good" people because there is no right and wrong so you just contradict yourself in order to appeal to emotions. I don't appeal to emotions, I appeal to logic but it seems that very few people are capable of thinking in terms of FOREVER.
Forever is a term meaning never beginning and never ending. Try to grasp that and all of your atheistic theories dissolve into thin air. Just think about it...
I want definitions...
Define "evil" cuz you used it in your argument. Define good, happy, negative and plus, cuz you used those too. Oh and define meaningful, happier, wrong, DANGEROUSLY wrong. You used those too... and how about meaning, purpose, wonderful and absolutely. You used all of these. Well? Explain? You're theory is based on contradictions and you're not really just an atheist, you're a relativist and no you don't have a real message to get out, you just have an axe to grind... If you were truely trying to help this guy, you'd give him well thought out facts, not relative terms which you then proceed to call absolutes which COMPLETELY contradicts your arguement.
-Cheez Out-
Well well, if it isn't Cheezy, the person who knows what I believe better than I do.
You might have a point IF that were my premise. But as has been pointed out to you time and again, it isn't. Of course there is right and wrong.We are a social species, we do better when we interact. The society sets what is right and wrong. My personal belief is that a society that maximizes personal freedom is the best. So I fail to see any contradiction.
Boy are you incredibly shallow or what? Do you really think that "make this [life] a great one", boil down to the simplistic "so try to have fun"? Who needs an "eternal pupose"? We need a worhwhile purpose for our LIFE.
Oh yeah, and by the way ... you never did tell us what your purpose was. Now I guess you need to make it an "eternal purpose".
(1) Yes Cheezy, you did challenge me to define good. But you don't seem to recognize that I did. Let's go back to our original discussion:
I guess you decided not to actually read what I wrote. *** I highly suspect you wont read this now. But others will , and I think contrasting your bigoted assertions with my reasoning bodes well for my cause. So thanks for the opportunity.
(2) It is true that I will die, but things that are important to me will live on after my death. Included in those things are my family and friends. They will do better if humanity does better. So tell me again why it is I can't work for the betterment of humanity?
(1) Again thank you for so clearly demonstrating the stultifying effects religion can have on some people. You illustrate one of the big reasons I think religion is a net negative in society.
Do you REALLY think that "make this [life] a great one" boils down to the simplistic, "Just run around and do as you please"? What you both seem to realize AND paradoxically DONT seem to realize is that type of attitude if prevalent would lead to a horrible world. You don't even try to substantiate it because you think its obvious. But *** it has never occurred to you even consider that it is obvious to atheists as well. If it is obviously a bad choice then why should we choose it?
(2) You are *** so caught up in your emotions you don't even recognize it. You are NOT appealling to logic. You continually try to tell me that what I feel is exact opposite of what I actually feel. You do this despite being told time and again otherwise. Who does that other than am unreasoning bigot?.
(3) I understand words like "forever" and "eternity" apparently better than you do.
Actually if we want to be precise, forever means (1) extending infinitely far back in the past or (2) extending infinitely forward in the future or (3) both. You seem to think only 3 is the case.
But more importantly, my "atheistic theories" are not dependent upon "forever" ... Just think.
When I referred to "evil" I was referring to the "proble of evil" with respect to God's existence. I'm surprised that someone who claims to have thought about these things for his entire life would not know that (actually in your case, I'm not). This blog of mine details my version of it. I call it "the argument from unnecessary suffering" concerning God's existence. That is another thing you are unlikely to read.
Yes, I used all of those words. They are pretty straight-forward words. Perhaps instead of trying to define them for you, you can tell me what your problem is with understanding them.
But you have been the only one who has actually been contradicted.
There you go again, telling me I am what I have already told you I am not. Telling me I believe what I have already told you I do not believe. Who other than an unreasoning bigot does that?
I let others determine who it is that has an axe to grind, who is making a well-thought out argument, and who's views are COMPLETELY contradicted. I looking back on this discussion I feel very satisfied with my case compared to yours. And thanks again for the opportunity to contrast my views with yours.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
***Comment edited for TOS violations by mvenus929 on Feb 18, 2008.
This may be the best post of yours I have read on this subject. You positively shared the basis of your beliefs, and even illustrated the reasons you have for opposing religion without hostility.
Thank You
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
I enjoy the content of his blog to, the way he describes his relation and course of his beliefs is quite open and well described, although it might not have been meant this way, his writing somehow contains a messages for all to think about, meaning the doubt many are having around all the different aspects that are involving the personal views we all carry within ourselves.
I wanted to take away some of that doubt, but my style has proven before not always been the most effective…
It is like we all know a very sensitive subject, gonna try to keep it in mind, maybe I will pay some attention to it on my own blog put out my own views upon the doubt so many carry inside their hearts and minds.
Strongly
After reading all of these replies, I start to get the feeling that many of you are atheists (disregarding DB's obvious atheism).
I have a few questions for all of you (including DB this time); Are your parents/families religious or still believe in God? If they are, how do they feel about your choice of belief? Do you ever get in huge arguments/fights over the topic of religion? And have you ever read the bible from cover to cover? And if so, after reading it, did you still have disbelieves in God?
Would you be interested in talking to a very religious person/minister? One that actually knows what he/she is talking about? If so, do you think that you can convince them into losing their faith from your arguments, or will they influence you? I am asking this, because I want to have a sit-down with one, and ask questions.
Also, how does it feel to wake up in the morning, knowing that the next time you go to sleep you might not get up in the morning (die) and know that it's "all over"; that there is no "after life" and that your thoughts, memories, and even your soul is diminished the day your heart stops pumping oxygen into that brain of yours, and that you will not exist ever again?
I'm sorry, but the thought of disappearing is one of the most feared things that I have in my mind, and I don't think that I could live without having hope of one day going to a place called heaven, or living the eternal life with God, etc.
I do have strong faith that God exists, and loves us all, but stop short of pretending I know exactly what Gods plans are. Perhaps Objective Christian is a good label if you must have one. My God and the Truth as it actually is are the same. Not the truth as I see it, because I am not the one that is good or right only God can match those descriptions.
---
"Are your parents/families religious or still believe in God? If they are, how do they feel about your choice of belief? Do you ever get in huge arguments/fights over the topic of religion?"
Not very religious, but they do believe in God. They didn't like it when I did not believe, but didn't put any stigma on it. They are pretty laid back on the whole subject; I have to find people not in my family to get any argument.
---
"And have you ever read the bible from cover to cover? And if so, after reading it, did you still have disbelieves in God?"
I read it when I had just become an atheist at about age 10 or 11. At the time I was using the knowledge gained to argue against it, and if you look it provides plenty of ammo in that regard. On the other hand it contains several very deep portions. Especially illustrative are; Job, Ecclesiastes, psalms, and proverbs. The actual words of Christ are also very enlightening. There is a great deal that may be parable rather than fact, and also Self serving history of the Jewish people. I do not attribute any word for word accuracy, but some of the authors certainly had wisdom that they wished to preserve on the topic of the creator of the universe and his relation to man.
---
"Would you be interested in talking to a very religious person/minister? One that actually knows what he/she is talking about? If so, do you think that you can convince them into losing their faith from your arguments, or will they influence you?"
I have. Rarely do I meet one that argues much at all with the premise that God is Truth. On the other hand firmly atheist people generally do not want to allow that definition. That seems to be because they want to pretend they are following truth and in their understanding that precludes faith in God. Generally these arguments do not change minds. In my case one did, but it took a period of years after the seed had been planted.
---
"Also, how does it feel to wake up in the morning, knowing that the next time you go to sleep you might not get up in the morning (die) and know that it's "all over"; that there is no "after life" and that your thoughts, memories, and even your soul is diminished the day your heart stops pumping oxygen into that brain of yours, and that you will not exist ever again?"
I have never worried much about an after-life. It is easy for me to see that I do not know. There is a great deal of the truth that lies beyond my knowledge. The moment we are in right now will exist eternally, and how we live it will create ripples into the future. Trusting Gods love in matters beyond my understanding has always worked to free me to deal with things within my understanding and control. Jesus said "do not worry" not because you might not be strung up on a cross tomorrow, but because it adds nothing to the miracle of life you have been given.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
I loved the way that you replied to my questions, and I am very satisfied with your answers. I'm not saying that I agree with everything that you said, though you gave me a big shove towards the "right" direction. Thank you.
And DB, I was hoping to hear what your answers are.
(1) Concerning Family:
I am 56 years old. Both my parents are dead now. Both of them were highly religious. My mother was the daughter of a third generation Baptist fire-and-brimstone preacher. And like I said, I started out as a commited believer. However, my father was in the Air Force and we moved around a lot. We found it difficult to find and stick with a church. So we didn't go to church often. I do remember having a "Bread of Life" thing on the dining room table. That was a piece of plastic molded in the shape of a loaf of bread. It had an opening at the top and insider were little cardboard pieces with bible verses on them. We used to pick one of these cardboard pieces and read a bible verse before dinner. But it did no indoctrination for me simply because without any context from the surrounding verses I couldn't make heads nor tails out of them.
I became interested in science at an early age as well. I read a lot of Isaac Asimov's science books. I liked read any and everything I could on astronomy. The BBT had been formulated at that time, but it hadn't made much headway into the public in which the steady-state universe model prevailed. I thought that the BBT made sense to me, and I sort of liked the idea of it mimicking Genesis' LET THERE BE LIGHT.
My father got stationed North of the Artic Circle and we couldn't go with him, so my mother, my brother, and me lived with the fire-and-brimstone Baptist preacher for that time period. I used to have long talks with him in which I defended the scientific view of the universe while he gently poo-poo'd it. He was long retired at that time and although we went to church occasionally, it wasn't that easy to get out of the house (he never learned to drive and my mother worked nights as a nurse), we didn't go to church often.
Eventually somewhere along the way, I became an atheist. God wasn't important to me. His existence didn't explain anything to me ... in fact everything seemed to be explained better without having to postulate his existence. At that time religion wasn't a subject I was interested in at all. So I had no reason to talk with either Mom or Dad about it.
When I finally got around to becoming interested in religion, I was already on my own and living about a thousand miles away from them. Religion was never a subject we talked about so they never asked and I never told. They died religious and we never discussed the matter.
My brother and I did. It turns out that even though he went to church, he too was an atheist. He went to church because he thought the moral teaching was a good thing. However, since then he too has become more vocal in his atheism and no longer goes to church. His wife still does occasionally, but she too has been turned off from religion. To the best of my knowledge none of his children have a particular interest in religion.
I married a woman of Buddhist ancestry who is also a scientist. She was an atheist when we met and is still an atheist now. We are raising our son as an atheist.
So my atheism has never caused any family problems for me.
(2) Concerning talking to ministers
I have done that. I enjoy doing that in fact. I am impressed with the lack of knowledge concerning the historical context of biblical times and the willingness to accept accounts from the bible that they would never accept today on the part of the more evangelical ones.
I should also stress that I have talked with some who have been very knowledgeable concerning those things as well. They tend to be more mystical. They view God almost deistically, as an all-emcompassing intellect that we will not only commune with but will become (already are?) a part of. I think that is an interesting idea but there is no evidence to support it.
Generally, I find that you cannot convince people who already have their minds made up. Having said that I can tell you the most common reaction at the end of these discussions is for the Pastor to shake my hand and say that I have given him something to think about. So perhaps I have created a little doubt. But then again he usually says that he hopes he has given me something to think about as well ... so probably not.
(3) Concerning waking up dead
I don't worry about it. I don't look forward to it, but I don't worry about it either.In the words of Mark Twain (IIRC): "I have already experienced an infinity of non-existance before I was born and it hasn't seemed to have done me any harm" (quoted from memory)
To me worrying about dying is about as productive as me worrying about never having enough money to afford my own jet airplane. Barring winning a mega-lottery (which I don't play) I am almost certain to never have that resource. If you were to ask me if I would like to have my own personal jet airplane, I would say, "Sure, why not?" But knowing that I never will doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the life I do have.
(4) Concerning the thought of disappearing.
The problem I have with that attitude is that you are hoping for "pie in the sky when you die" when you should be trying to meaning and happiness while you are living. There is nothing you can do to prevent your eventual death. There are plenty of things you can do achieve meaning, purpose, and happiness.
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give you as full an answer as possible.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Hello DB
I have followed the link to your previous conversation with Glare, took me quite some time to go trough it but what I read was quite remarkable material which was brought up.
Could you maybe tell us some more about this,
Thank you,
"""I should also stress that I have talked with some who have been very knowledgeable concerning those things as well. They tend to be more mystical. They view God almost deistically, as an all-emcompassing intellect that we will not only commune with but will become (already are?) a part of. I think that is an interesting idea but there is no evidence to support it."""
Here are some ideas of a non-Roman-Catholic, non-Greek Orthodox Catholic priest (I was surprised to find out that Catholicism had sects other than Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodoxs) I have had many enjoyable conversations with. I may not have his idea exactly correct but to the best of my understanding this is what he believes:
He believes that God is an all-encompassing intelligence. Everything in the universe is a direct part of God. As such we will all have eternal life, no matter what we believe. Even though he and I are integral parts of the same intelligence we do not have access to each other's intelligence. The reason this is the case is because God wants to have as wide a variety of experiences as is possible.
That is the same reason there is evil in the world. God wants to experience evil as well as good. Since his and my experiences are limited and we do not have the all-emcompassing viewpoint of God we interpret evil as evil. From God's all-encompassing perspective it is actually good since it heightes His experiences. Since everything is God and nothing is actually being destroyed it is not really evil.
My Catholic priest friend is very enamored with the writings of Ken Wilbur. He is most definitely a dualist. He thinks the brain cannot explain thought. He has no problem with scientific evidence that suggest that altering brain chemistry alters thought. He still believes that thought is generated from the outside. He explains away the scientific data with an analogy: A violinist pulls a bow across a set of well tuned violin strings and a wonderful sound emerges. Fiddle with the tuning of the violin and if the violinist makes exactly the same bow pull as before then the sound that emerges is likely to be of a poor quality. The analogy is that the violinist is God and the violin is our brain. Messing with brain chemistry is analogous to messing with the tuning of the violin. The screwed up thought that emerges is analogous to the poor quality sound that comes from the screwed up violin.
He believes that qualia, the essence of something shows that thought cannot possibly be explained by brain function. He uses an analogy that I did not think much of so I'm unlikely to do justice to it. But here goes anyway:
Suppose there is a brilliant scientist. This brilliant scientist knows everything that there is to know about the color red. She knows the wavelengths of light that produce red, she knows exactly how that light interacts with the photopigments. She knows exactly how the signal is transduced to the brain. But here is the catch ... suppose also she has since the moment of birth worn glasses that filter out the color red. Even though she knows everything there is to know physically about the color red she will be unable to predict what she will see when she finally takes off those glasses and experiences the color red on her own for the first time. Thus, physical properties cannot determine our experience of the color red.
I think that covers his views on some of the most important discussions we have had. I have tried to give you his side of the argument unaffected by my counter arguments. Hope that helps.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Yet again, very cool material thank you for that.
For different reasons I follow much of the reasoning that you brought up in your writing, while keeping in regard the fact that you didn’t bring up your counter arguments.
To me, based upon my experiences and therefore from what I have witnessed, many people refer to as their God is nothing but a source and therefore something very different than what many support while the only thing they go upon is stories and intelligent words written by men in a book.
Regardless of how these words might reflect upon people, they carry only but one reason, a reason to keep one into looking the wrong direction and therefore stay blind from the real truth that surrounds each and everyone of us.
To me what many refer to as being God is a hoax and cause of many misunderstandings that we are dealing with upon this planet, since (from what I know) there is absolutely no one up in the sky looking down upon us while judging every step we make.
To my believes there is no such God or thing since we are all a part of the same source that surrounds our lives.
We do have access to intelligence, every thought we produce automatically becomes a part of the source, a source which to some is accessible.
Thanks again,
You have really made me think about many things.
You are very intelligent, and unlike the stereotype of atheism I had in my head you are as wise as your intelligent.
You really did make me think. Nonetheless, my safe bet is to stay with god, and since if God does exist, then I'll be better off than an atheist, and if God doesn't exist, then no harm has been done to my life. A good life could still be lived.
And I love what you said about "concerning the thought of disappearing."
But please do inform us of one of the conversations that you had with a "man of God," I'm very interested.
What you have just outlined is called Pascal's Wager. It is an argument first presented by Polish mathematician Blaise Pascal in a book (Pensees) published posthumously circa 1660. Pascal was a brilliant mathematician but this argument is fatally flawed.
(1) It assumes equal likelihood between God/No-God alternatives. I think the evidence points beyond a reasonable doubt to No-God
(2) It assumes there is no price to pay for the belief option when there is No-God. But there is. If there is no God, then the believer will have wasted a significant proportion of the only life he will ever have worshiping a figment of his imagination and trying to live his life under the auspices of a book that has no more claim to legitamacy than does a stack of Rorschach blots.
(3) It also assumes that the only possible options are God-of-the-bible or No-God. What if God exists but he isn't anything like the God of the bible? Then the wager has no meaning. In fact, if we picture the putative God-capable-of-bestowing-salvation as one who values that which distinguishes humans from all other organisms, our critical thinking; then we could reformulate the wager such that the reasoned atheist has the just as good as or much better options over that of the theist who accepts belief based solely on faith.
=========
I did try to set forth the ideas of a non-traditional Catholic priest friend of mine with whom I have had a number of discussions.
Also, just this morning two Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door. I spent about 20 minutes talking to them and we had a great time.
They asked me if I thought that crime was a problem, and I said I did. They asked me if I thought the problem was going to get better soon and I said I didn't think so. Then one started to read me a prophecy from Psalms in which it says that soon things will get better.
I pointed out that most of Psalms was written during the exilic period which was between 586 BCE and 533 BCE. And that was over 2500 years ago. That is not soon to me, so doesn't that mean the prophecy was not fulfilled?
They responded that to God a 1000 years is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years.
I pointed out that the bible uses that line for two reasons: The Old Testament uses it to harmonize why it was that when God told Adam that he would die "the day" he eats of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam didn't actually die until 930 years later. And the New Testament uses it to explain why it is that even though Jesus had told some of his disciples that he would be coming back before that generation had passed away; all of THAT generation had passed away and Jesus wasn't back yet.
They said that there was no contradictions in the bible. I pointed out the contradictions in the birth narrative of Matthew and Luke. They said that was two different views of the same thing. I told them it was more like two different views of different things: Matthew has Mary and Joseph living in Bethlehem and then running away to Egypt and after Herod the Great's death deciding to go to Nazareth instead of resettling back in Bethlehem (because Herod's son ruled around Bethlehem); Luke has Mary and Joseph coming to Bethlehem from Nazareth because of a census and then returning to Nazareth after the birth.
Then I told them that Matthew has Jesus being born during the reign of Herod the Great who died in 4 BCE; while the census carried out by Quirinius occurred in 6 CE which was 10 years AFTER Herod the Great's death.
They said they would have to check up on those facts. Then we went through and compared some pericopes in the bible in which they are interesting variations. I told them to me this shows that some biblical authors changed the wording to suit their purpose and if was THEIR purpose then it wasn't GOD'S purpose and that was evidence that suggested the biblical message came from humans and NOT from God.
We went over the conflicting genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke. They tried to claim that one genealogy was through Joseph and the other was through Mary. I showed them that both claim to be through Joseph ... Matthew's undeniably so, and the only way to get Luke's through Mary is to claim that where it says "Joseph, the son of Heli" it REALLY means "Joseph, the son-in-law of Heli".
To their credit they thanked me and said that I had given them a lot to think about and would I mind if they came back once they felt more prepared. I told them sure.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Why the heck is life so complicated?
Can't we all just live forever upon an infinite spacious galaxy that we can all get to with ease?
Never underestimate the power of your thought!
As long you fear whatever is coming your way, you will deny yourself the possibility to grow, what more sad a reality would you want to create around your time!
There is only one true religion, the religion of your own mind, so, why not mould it while your at it?
"Can't we all just live forever upon an infinite spacious galaxy that we can all get to with ease?"
Sounds nice, but I have no reason to believe that it's true.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
Because the universe was not created with us in mind. We just adapt to it the best natural selection has been able to do so far. And if it is a choice between what we have and not being at all, then I'll take what we have.
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
"Created"? That's funny, I never knew that I can see that word in your post.
You obviously mean created by the big bang right?
The tornado created a path 16 kilometers (10 mi) long and 1.6 kilometers (1 mi) wide; ...
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
How does that work with the universe?
http://www.progressiveu.org/165114-so-tell-me-my-friend-how-did-the-univ...
Cheers,
DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
[sigh] you're killing me with these book-long posts lol. I'm sure I'll find my answer in there somewhere. So thanks in advance.
Just to defend Pascal since he is dead and cannot do a better job himself.
"(1) It assumes equal likelihood between God/No-God alternatives."
Actually it only assumes that there is SOME possibility that God exists.
"(2) It assumes there is no price to pay for the belief option when there is No-God."
Wrong again. It only assumes that the price to pay for believing is trivial when compared to the consequence of not believing.
"(3) It also assumes that the only possible options are God-of-the-bible or No-God."
By far your best argument, but still far from correct. There is an assumption that not believing in God MIGHT have some negative consequence, but the exact nature of that consequence need only be more arduous than the cost of belief to make the argument valid.
Pascal was a great thinker. I'm sure he could make the case better than I do.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iZz-VZhWd0oC&dq=pensees&pg=PP1&ots=kLVc...
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
What if Thor is the real god? Or Zeus? Or someone who would be really pissed off that you worship some silly little false god instead of them?
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
"the exact nature of that consequence need only be more arduous than the cost of belief to make the argument valid."
The specific nature and meaning of the existence of God doesn't interfere unless the actual facts make the results of belief worse than non-belief in this argument. Is this true of Thor or Zeus to the best of your knowledge? Any other condition makes belief neutral or beneficial.
In any case my post refered to the flaws in the logic, not the underlying question.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
I see no reason to believe in the Abrahamic god over any other god.
"In any case my post refered to the flaws in the logic, not the underlying question."
True, but the logic of the question is flawed because it does not take into account the existence of any god other than the Christian god.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
The same argument that Pascal used could be applied to any question of improvable assumption with a potential penalty for one of the possibilities.
Since the fear of penalty for not 'worshiping' or believing is not a tenet of my own faith I would not use this argument.
As you correctly point out it could justify anything, even atheism, if the atheist assumed objective rejection of every unproven assertion was in fact rewarded by never being wrong. "Disbelieve everything because no matter what is actually true you are not wrong for having disbelieved." While it is pragmatically impossible to apply this ideal to the life you must live, it is the same logical argument applied to the atheist rationale.
As humans we deal with perception of reality rather than a proven reality. Proper logic is like algebra in that you can assign values to variables and apply formulae to more than a single situation.
OT What happened to the edit button? It is coming and going today.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
As you essentially just pointed out, the wager is meaningless. A Christian theist perceives hell as the ultimate thing to fear because that is what they believe in. I have no reason to believe in hell. Therefore, a wasted life is what I think the worst punishment. It is a moot point because it is meaningless.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
Exactly right. Pascal did not make a mistake in the logic, but your own aplication can be made to justify whatever you like.
---
"a wasted life"
"2Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?"
Ecclesiastes 1
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
Well, I'd say that something can can justify anything to people who already believe it is logically flawed. lol I guess it's what we're considering a logical flaw...
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!"
H. P. Lovecraft
Pascal was smart and had faith in God. I've been reading Pensees from the link I provided above. There is a long introduction and biography at the start, but it really gets good on about page 50. As Persivale pointed out He did not think that rational proofs were aplicable to faith, even his own 'wager' was only intended as a starting point, but he does cleverly address some of the atheist arguments he encountered.
The closest I've come to reading anything by him in the past was programing in Pascal in College, which surely dates me. ;-)
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
...that while many christians place a great deal of weight into Pascal's Wager, Pascal himself did not. As D.B. noted above, Pensees was published posthumously, and there is no evidence that Pascal ever intended to publish his Wager. Pascal himself held that one could not solve questions of faith through this sort of logic, and maintained that the "first principles" of christian thought had to be arrived at through revelation, not reason. This was, in fact, one of the central points of Pascal's criticism of Descartes' rationalism, which he characterized as too materialistic.
percivale
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
"first principles" or premises are definitions when mathematics are involved.
A Fact is Always Better Than an Ideal.
Guilty as charged. lol
"Are your parents/families religious or still believe in God?"
My mother is probably the most agnostic of the lot. My father is an atheist as is my brother. However, I went to Hebrew school and did learn a lot about the religion. The reason it never took is because I have never experienced anything that led me to believe in god.
"If they are, how do they feel about your choice of belief?"
My best friend is a modern orthodox jew. (I know it isn't family, but it essentially is). I couldn't care less about his religion. It makes him happy and he genuinely believes it. Also, it does not interfere with his life and he is one of the best people I ever met, all around. So, I'm fine with his belief. I'm also fine with anyone else's belief as long as that doesn't involve imposition and as long as they are happy and genuinely believe it.
"And have you ever read the bible from cover to cover? And if so, after reading it, did you still have disbelieves in God?"
I read most of the Torah. The bit about taxes killed me. lol. I have read portions of the New Testament. Really, it never had any affect on me other than as a piece of literature.
"Would you be interested in talking to a very religious person/minister? One that actually knows what he/she is talking about?"
Have done so.
"If so, do you think that you can convince them into losing their faith from your arguments, or will they influence you?"
I don't think I could convince a deeply religious person through words alone. Likewise, I have never been swayed by their words. If you want to talk with one, that makes sense, but I think it is always best to talk to people of all sorts of beliefs, religious and otherwise, in order to get the broadest perspective.
"Also, how does it feel to wake up in the morning, knowing that the next time you go to sleep you might not get up in the morning (die) and know that it's "all over";"
I don't think about it. I imagine it feels like nothing. I do know that, at face value, I do not fear death. That being said, I would like to prolong my life as long as possible without loosing my functions. (In other words, not living off breathing machines strapped to a bed.) Why? I want to experience all I can in this life.
How does it feel to know that you could be judged, found wanting, and sent to hell for eternity?
"and that your thoughts, memories, and even your soul is diminished the day your heart stops pumping oxygen into that brain of yours, and that you will not exist ever again?"
Well, I don't believe in a soul, but, like I said, I don't trouble myself with the thoughts. When I'm dead, I suspect I won't care one way or the other. While living, I'll focus on that.
"I'm sorry, but the thought of disappearing is one of the most feared things that I have in my mind, and I don't think that I could live without having hope of one day going to a place called heaven, or living the eternal life with God, etc."
What's so terrifying about it?
Personally, I can live from one day to the next based on my mortal hopes, aspirations, loves, friendships, etc.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
I come from a nest that carries or supports no religion whatsoever although we keep an open mind and (mostly) respect the ones that do. Inside my family we all carry strong opinions about any forms of practice that involves worship.
We commonly share an understanding that any kind of worship one way or another involves a threat to society and more important we consider it to be handicap to allow a sane and healthy evolution of mankind to evolve, because we regard religion to be extremely negatively intelligent in more than one way.
Individuals regardless the religion they worship which are on a constant quest trying to impose their believes wherever they are present I personally regard dangerous elements that fill our world with a cancer of fear that affects us all.
At a young age driven by curiosity on a few occasions I ventured myself inside churches attending some religious ceremonies which all felt weird to witness, must admit I enjoyed the peaceful atmosphere that was to be found.
I have tried to work my way through some pages of the Bible but it did not appeal to me.
I have had a few brief talks with priests recently (may 2007), they just like other people are struggling with some doubts regarding the structure they are a part of. There’s a lot of changes occurring these days and priests seem to put more focus upon human interest in order to support the weaker elements that are suffering from our worldly ordeals like (9/11).
What you bring up around dying is a good example of what is putting a lit upon your capabilities and keeps you in the “BOX”.
You like many others will of course not believe me, but I will share it anyway.
Some people upon this planet carry a knowledge they are desperately trying to keep you ignorant about. Like I mentioned before, the egg is starting to burst!
Now something that will make no sense to many, luckily I don’t care to much of what people will be throwing at me after reading this….
For one, all the people that are alive at this very moment have willingly chosen to be amongst us as we speak YOU AND ME INCLUDED!
All of us have chosen this very moment in our evolution to be here. The reason why you did and now don’t recall is because the truth is being hidden from you. Some feel there is something always present in the back of their heads, but they just can’t seem to figure out what it is or represents.
The moment you took your first breath of air, is that split second you crossed from one side to the other.
What you refer to as dying is actually crossing back to the other side.
Depending on how you have lived your life while in this vehicle (body) of yours will define your awareness of what “is/has” taken place.
If you live a life in which you carry no interest in asking yourself the bigger questions that are pushing in the back of your head, you will automatically limit the possibilities of gaining in awareness, consciousness and knowledge…. In other words one remains ignorant!
If you can bring yourself to tap into other realities than the one’s you carry or hold on to, you will eventually find yourself upon a path that is not only filled with adventure but it will change your entire life.
The only thing that stands in one’s way, is that clouded vision and tremendous fear of letting go.
I guess this is enough for now,
Your choice now is to take a minute and think…
I’m fully aware of the fact that you won’t believe a word I’m saying, doesn’t matter.
If you want to question it, do it one step at the time in order to allow yourself to open up an understanding and for me to point out the direction were to look for answers.
Guess working on your fear is a priority you need to take in consideration in order to find some peace of mind.
Please don’t bombard me with questions, be wise!
To add some more pleasure/confusion/doubt/questions about who/what we are!
Where are YOU when you sleep?
Are you in bed?
Of course you are, but you can’t prove it to yourself, you need someone else to confirm it to you after you wake up.
Maybe you can feel the heat you left behind on your sleeping spot that will acknowledge the fact that you were indeed in your bed….lol
Even putting a camera to record the image of you sleeping takes away all doubt about your presence while wondering in dreamland. Still! It is nothing more than your physical body that is being confirmed to be present.
Where are you? Your thoughts and therefore the “I “when sleeping?
When we sleep we are in another dimension, a dimension were we can have exactly the same sense of reality we carry when awake. On top of that we find ourselves on a playground were we can even fly, run, die, shoot up, dance, eat, have sex, get drunk, fall down a cliff, sail upon a pirate ship.....yes yes yes…all this and much more..lol.
Interesting, isn’t it?
Within this dimension we can even perceive feel the same emotional pleasures and pain that we experience while awake!
So what tells you your awake now, when reading THIS! Is this maybe nothing more than a dream you are lingering in now?
Or maybe you perceive this reality to be more real than the one you have while sleeping!
How come you can fly in your dreams while you can’t when awake?
It’s the physical laws of the boundaries within your “BOX” of reality that set these rules!
Still, what if your “I” can shift or expand those rules and boundaries?
Hhhhhmmmm, magic, craziness, wonder, miraculous…use the force Luke…lol
Like I said before, never estimate the power of your thoughts, they might bring you closer to the truth, a truth that opens up new realities on which you can tune into like looking for the right channel on your radio.
Most people (the global herd) are tuned upon the same channel or frequency, what kind of limitation is that, lol! While there’s a big round button to turn in order to switch and find other channels!
When lingering in the dream world you are tuned in upon Radio “I” while accepting all these other frequencies to enter or mix up with this frequency of yours…isn’t that funny?
Some can, but the herd doesn’t alter dreams, what you dream is what you get, whether you play pool with a Al Pacino or find yourself in a French kissing session with your best friends grandmother…well, you actually don’t control a lot of that…do you? Hahaha…
But! To stay on the topic…
Whenever a much stronger frequency comes manifesting itself inside the one you are, things happen, when this happens people just like you, FREAK OUT BIG TIME!!! Lol, most likely you run away because of the fear and confusion that is accompanied when you find yourself face to face with a T-rex that is in need of a snack, or coming across a bunch of people that have huge sharp teeth like a shark while carrying a special look at you…you know, that look!!! lol. Uhu, time to run…or even to burst out of that dream (reality) in sweat!
But a frequency can be ecstatic in many ways too, it can even bring solutions to problems you deal with in your other (this) reality, quite amazing that is. You can experience sex while still being a virgin and go on a holiday for free upon the most beautiful islands which can’t even be found in magazines!
You can live an entire life in the spam of an hour! Have kids, and be John Rambo putting out traps in the jungle of Borneo!
Our dream world is in fact a reality that caries infinite possibilities, but you already knew this, you are wondering there every night over and over again.
The frequency when awake has it’s limitations because you believe it does, why you believe it does? Because you don’t know any better! Why don’t you know any better? Because you don’t!
End of discussion?
Well now! Why you walk around with all these questions, why are you questioning your frequency (reality)?
Are you not happy with your reality?
Is there something in the back of your head pushing you to turn that button?
Where is that button, what button?
Do you sense or feel something?
Are you (becoming) crazy?
So, why end the discussion?
Is your curiosity not strong enough?
We can go and on, but it useless! It’s the fear that is in control of YOU!
You are afraid of what might be coming at you!
You are afraid of questioning your surroundings!
You are afraid of thinking out of the BOX!
You are afraid of stepping outside of the herd!
You are afraid of the creator!
You are afraid of HELL!
You are afraid of DEAD!
What kind of live is that! To live a life in fear is like waiting for your worst dreams to come true and be OK with it! Hell no!
WAKE UP!!!
What about choice!
You get two letters in the mailbox: one is an invitation to come and work in a remote Chinese mine in order to dig up charcoal.
The other letter is an invitation to be send into orbit as a volunteer in order to analyse the effects upon regular citizens and the special cares that need to be put in place to allow future space holidays.
Choice is a killer, it can bring us pain or joy! More important is to carry an understanding that choice is that wonderful element that allows us to feel a sense of freedom.
It is very clear many people make wrong choices….lol
Each and every choice we make changes the course of our lives in effect, we change the course of our lives everyday.
Tonight you go out with friends, you meet a kick ass Brazilian top model! Banggggg!!!
Mutual attraction hits you both in the face! 3 days later she says, (with a sexy voice) follow me to my mansion in Brazil, I love you! hahaha
Welcome to real life! Whatever choice you make, it will change the course of your life for ever!
Joy and pain are a constant part of our lives…that’s the whole deal!
To live a life in doubt means you are becoming part of the herd!
A herd allows it’s surroundings to make choices for the herd, in fact your are now educated in a situation like that!
It is important to find some peace in the choices you have made or about to make, otherwise you get stuck, sick, confused, lonely, sad while filling your heart with fear!
Be happy whenever you are in a situation you can make choices, it’s a freedom which is taken away from many!
Tune up your radio and look what is outside the “BOX”
You are now like many others lingering in a situation were you are part of a massif grand scale mind manipulation, a manipulation wherein you are being told who you are, what to believe, what to do and more worse being put in a situation were you are not supposed to question any of it!
What kind of nonsense is that!
Tune up the radio, if you don’t find the button, ask!
Amazingly enough, you don't have to pick one side of the spectrum. It is not necessary to become an extremist in either creation or evolution nor a fundamentalist. In my opinion the bible can't be taken literally; everything in the bible is a symbol for something else. For example, God made everything in 6 days and rested on the seventh da