Recently a group of Muslim scholars and leaders sent an open letter to the Pope; in it they started by saying "Muslims and Christians make up well over half of the worlds population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world. The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians".
When the Christian "leaders" were to reply they said "Jesus Christ says, "First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye" (Matthew 7:5), we want to begin by acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in excesses of the "war on terror") many Christians have been guilty of sinning against our Muslim neighbors. Before we "shake your hand" in responding to your letter, we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One and of the Muslim community around the world."
I wonder what the apology the Christians are giving is for. Crusades that happened hundreds of years ago by political tyrants in the name of Christianity and was condemned by many, many Christians both then and now. Those crusades happened then and i doubt any terrorist is learned enough to know about them. Can you compare that to Muslims in Kano state, Nigeria who have named 90% of their male babies Osama since 9/11.( ***Note: There are lots of peace loving people in Nigeria and this by no means represents the whole population) This shows a global Islamic support for terrorism.
Christians have been known to die for what they believe in as exemplified by their leader Jesus Christ, and practiced by millions of Christians all over the world (shout out to the Sudanese Christians). Muslims have been known to kill to pass across their message, as exemplified by their leader Mohammed and portrayed by Mulims around the world. Even if you argue that Mohammed was only killing those engaged in active combat against him; it is known that when Jesus' disciples wanted to engage those who wanted to take him, he stopped them and healed the wounded enemy.
So what exactly are these people writing Christians for? Do they want help with their out of control, outright crazy religious fanatics, or do they want to just call attention to themselves. How many of them represent Shiite Muslims how many represent Sunni? I mean what is their point? I don't know the Christian that went to their Muslim world and blew up their Mosque in the name of Jesus, neither do i remember that Christian that slit the throat of a Muslim preacher simply because he was Muslim.
There is no doubt that i respect many of the Christian leaders who embarked on that white elephant project but another reason you don't go to Muslims and start apologizing because they see it as weakness. You are the weak infidel begging them while they are the strong one's who will be giving whatever number of virgins in heaven. It's time we stopped deceiving ourselves. There was even a time when we couldn't even use "Islamic fascism" to describe terrorism. That is not the American way, and it certainly is not the Christian way. That's the cowardly way, that's is not me, it has never been. I therefore want to ask that those "leaders" should NOT apologize on my behalf.
I may be wrong so let me know your thoughts.
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My thoughts: You are wrong. Really not being trying to be rude but your views are drastically skewed. One the middle east represents about 250-300 million Muslims, compared to the 1.5 BILLION muslims across the world. I didn't read the letter or anything about it except this blog so I don't know facts. But you can not condem an entire religion for part of its people. B/c out of those 300 million....less than 5 million are fundmentalist. So you are basing an entire religion on around 3% of its participants. Not right on any sense.
Furthermore, the middle east was one of the most prominent places only 50 years ago. Economies were booming, religion and state were seperate, women had equal rights to men. In 50 years the place has degraded to the point it is now...hardly the fault of Islam b/c Islam was there long before problems arised.
Lastly, terrorists aren't uneducated. Bin Ladin and all his top men are HIGHLY educated and wealthy individuals. Their followers are not the most dirt poor people in their country, they are the middle class, the literate, bussinessmen. We can not base predjudices on the fact that we think poverty is causing terrorism.
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
I didn't bash an entire religion, the point of this blog wasn't to bash Muslims it is to tell the Christian leaders not to apologize on my behalf. Concerning condemning an entire religion there are terrorists and then there are those who support them and then there are those who are not against them.
Osama is educated but not many of his pawns are. And not every educated person knows about history as deep as that. I wonder where you heard that women ever had "equal rights to men", not only in the middle east but anywhere in the world. Even the koran that was written long ago says “Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please. Do good works and fear God;”.
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
Your right, unfortanatley, women aren't equal yet in society. Let's say that women were as equal in the middle east as they were in America in the 1950's...not much but better than now. And guess what, the bible says almost the same thing about women on multiple occassions.
People who serve under Osma and leaders like him are usually more intelligent than protrayed to Americans. Every man who hijacked the planes on 9/11 was educated in a college level setting, many were engineers and technicians. Terrorists attract more middle class than lower class. More educated people than ones who have recieved no education.
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
I wonder what your fascination with terrorists are, in view you may be sly enough to hi-jack airlines containing innocent lives and killing them but that by no means makes you intelligent. In my view it makes you a big fool. And i would like to know anywhere at all where the bible says something synonymous to that.
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (GENESIS 3:16)
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35: And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" (1 CORINTHIANS 14:34-35)
"When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.(DEUTERONOMY 25:5).
Just a few. And if you think I have a fascination with terrorists you're incorrect. I try and understand the roots of problems. The terrorists who hijacked the plane were educated, went to school, were engineers and technicians. You can debate the word intelligent but educated you can not. These were educated men, not random brainless men.
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
Let's put in context. The first quote actually means that the Christian God didn't create women to rule over men but made it so as a punishment for their bad behavior, in that same quote the man also receive their own punishment but you didn't note that. What it proves is that women were created to be equal to men.
The other quote was of a man so i will address it after the quotes from God.
The third quote DEUTERONOMY 25:5- you did not put in context. During that time, it was a thing of pride for the woman and actually something some men didn't like such that the rest of the verse says Deut 25:7-... "However, if a man does not want to marry his brother's wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, "My husband's brother refuses to carry on his brother's name in Israel...". So, it wasn't something to please men or to make them superior to women, it was a duty, it even goes on to prescribe a punishment to the man who won't perform his duty at the request of the woman.
The second one (1 CORINTHIANS 14:34-35) was said at a time when in the Roman empire woman where protesting for equal rights under the law as men. And at that time they would run around bare breasted and do all sorts of shameful things in protest. In order to control the amount of that behavior that was brought in the Church, the writers of the new testament put a lot of restraints on the way ladies in the Church conducted themselves- to separate them from those of the world.
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
So blame women for asking for equal rights?!? Yes very fair and noble of them. A father can aslo sell his daughter into slavery. Daughters are a father's property until he hands them off to their husband when they became his property. Furthermore, when was woman created according to the bible? Once woman was created at the same time as man, and then later woman was created after? Why the change?
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
I don't know where you got "blame women for asking for equal rights?" from. It is really funny that you can't comprehend it but it's okay. If you don't know the history from that time and how the Church expects people to conduct themselves- both of which you clearly don't know we can't speak on the same terms. Because it is just above you.
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
What is the church blaming women for and not men? Since your an expert on history please inform me. Why does the bible mention punishments for women but not men?
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
You or anybody giving you these quotes is clearly just avoiding the parts where the punishments for men are mentioned all the verses that you mentioned before i will beg you to read them a little further or in the case of the first one a little before that point. I want to leave you with these quotes from the bible:
1 Peter 3:7 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT as the weaker partner and AS HEIRS with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. (if you don't treat your wives with respect, your prayers will be hindered)
Colossians 3:19 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
19Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
Ephesians 5:25 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
All I am saying is that you took a quote from the Koran out of context to fit your needs...so did I . How do you know what the rest of the Koran says and what it says about marriage/women. Unless your both a biblical and koran scholar I doubt you have the capacity to adequtley speak on the tenets of the religion.
Furthermore, what do you say to all the muslims living in this country? Ones who have adapted their faith the way christians have so that it fits a western society? Islam is doing the same thing Christianity did when it was 1500 years old.
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
No, in those verses it is clear. Here's the verse before it "And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
[2.223] Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers."
As you can see it really isn't a continuation from anything and if you want to see what's next, check the Koran 2:224
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
You got one thing right!
"The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians".
What a great place this world would be if the Muslim and Christian extremists could grow up and stop fighting.
Tabias-
So true. After all, they have so much in common. They even worship the same God. A single prophet separates them from each other. If they could just get past that then they could band together and start fighting all of the Godless infidels who let their women have jobs.
I fear the day that Christian and Muslim fundamentalists start getting along, cause that means that they'll be coming after me. They are crazy, violent, religious fundamentalists. Without each other to fight they'll start fighting some new moral/religious outrage.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memento mori, mahalo.
"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real-estate above principles."
"I fear the day that Christian and Muslim fundamentalists start getting along, cause that means that they'll be coming after me. They are crazy, violent, religious fundamentalists. Without each other to fight they'll start fighting some new moral/religious outrage."
I'm Wiccan, so I'm sure my kind would be first to go...again!
Tabias-
Yeah, probably. Sad really, Wicca seems pretty harmless over all to me, and generally gentler and kinder than many other religions that claim to be gentle and kind.
Of course my general atheism probably won't be swallowed too kindly by them either.
Oh well, if we keep our fingers crossed they will probably start with bombing every abortion clinic they can stand next to.
Res ipsa loquitur.
memento mori, mahalo.
"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real-estate above principles."
I run two Neo-Pagan groups at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colorado and I actually get along great with the Freethinkers (mainly Atheist). They invite me all the time to talk about Wicca. Yes, I know it is weird for me to be talking about Deity when they don't believe in it, but they really seem to love the Wiccan view about faith and whatnot. They like the fact that we're not out to convert or push our religion on others and that we teach tolerance and acceptance.
The Freethinker group and my group help each other out as much as possible. It's really the perfect example of how it should be. A group that believes in magick, Deity, crystals, etc...and a group that doesn't believe in hardly any of that at all, yet we get along and have great conversations.
I usually tend to be on the side of all the Atheist here on Progressive U when heated debates about religion are happening. Not because I don't believe in Deity (which I do), but it's usually due to the fact that the debates are always about "my religion's d$&k is bigger than yours". Wiccans don't play those games.
Tabias-
Here's the original letter written a little over a year ago.
Here's this year's letter to the Pope, written exactly a year after the first one.
Here's the Christian community's response to the last letter.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
"Love your neighbor"
"If you someone strikes you on one cheek turn the other to him as well"
"If a man ask of you to go one mile go with him two"
"If you are asked for your coat, give also your shirt"
Several more apply to the letter that was sent, but these ought to be enough to see where I am going with this. Asking for forgiveness is very much what a Christian should do. Going the extra mile to love your neighbor is not conditional on the neighbor conforming to your idea of how they should act, it is the example you should show as a Christian.
"Love your enemies. for even the heathen loves those that love him" If you are trying to be like the Lord you must also love those that hate you. The first, and even second, third on to the 7 x 70th time we should take the first step for peace. The 9/11 attacks were not exactly out of the blue. We had done enough to earn the hate they had for us. That doesn't justify what they did, but it explains why the world of islam cheered.
The Pope and company should have SENT the letter. As it is the most freindly terms possible in the responce are none too freindly.
What is ""Love your enemies. for even the heathen loves those that love him" supposed to mean?
Tabias-
He is referencing a verse where Jesus is saying that ONLY loving those who love you in turn does you no credit because even "heathens," or people that would have been viewed as "godless" or "immoral" back then, love those who love them in turn.
Simply put, Jesus is saying that only loving people who love you back means nothing because it took nothing out of you to love those who love you back, whereas loving someone who doesn't love you probably takes a little more.
I knew that, but I just wanted to hear someone say it.
Not that it matters to most Christians, but that verse is not only wrong, but it is offensive to an entire religion (spirituality practice) of faithful followers. Heathens are not "godless", Heathenism is a spirituality that falls under the umbrella of Norse Paganism. Not all, but most Heathens refer to their spirituality as Asatru.
Just because we (those who fall under the umbrella of Paganism) don't worship the way Christians do, doesn't mean that we're godless. Can't people just be different? Statements like that in the bible are the reason why Christians still feel the way they do about other religions.
There's no tolerance or acceptance for other religions found within the bible. It's either the bible's way or the highway (highway to hell). Statements like that can be very dangerous for people who really know their bible, but who don't know anything about other religions.
Education! Education! Education!
Tolerance and Acceptance are the only things that will lead to peace. Without them, nothing will ever change.
Tabias-
``Not that it matters to most Christians, but that verse is not only wrong, but it is offensive to an entire religion (spirituality practice) of faithful followers. Heathens are not "godless"...``
But is that really what Jesus said? I just looked it up in five languages and didn`t find `heathens` or any rough equivalent in any version I checked.
The Greek says αμαρτωλοι (sinners) and the French (pécheurs) and Portuguese (pescadores) agree. Castilian says malo (the bad).
Some versions say things that amount to `Do you think you do something special by loving those who love you back? Even sinners love their friends.`
Sometimes the modern English versions don`t match up with the translations from which they come. To be closest to the intended message, we`d need to check the language of the words that were spoken.
No offence was intended, by my choice of translations, and I am sorry you took any.
Heathen
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/heathens
noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heathens or heathen
Date: before 12th century
1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible
2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person
This word was not used until about 1,000 years after the statement was made.
The meaning of the word when the translation I used was made did not indicate ANY specific religion.
So in the spirit of the teaching I gladly restate the lesson from the King James translation:
Mathew 5
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
This more fully and better said. The fault for the offensive paraphrase is entirely mine. Please forgive me.
If you look up the words Witch, Heathen, Warlock, Pagan, Witchcraft, and many other terms associated with Paganism, you will find definitions, but the definitions that you find are incorrect and obviously still continue to give us a bad name.
I'm a male Wiccan and a Witch. Male Witches are not Warlocks. Warlocks are considered to be traitors or Witches who have chosen to follow a more negative path or one not accepted by the principals of Wicca / Witchcraft.
I would love to somehow be able to have the definitions of certain Pagan terms changed in dictionaries worldwide. It’s really not that surprising though. The world has been heavily influenced by the Church for a very long time, but I would say that it’s about time that a few things be updated, especially things that reference entire spirituality practices such as Heathenism or any practice that falls under the umbrella of Paganism.
The bible may say this or that, but it shouldn’t be used as a source for coming up with definitions, especially about other spirituality practices.
Tabias-
"I would love to somehow be able to have the definitions of certain Pagan terms changed in dictionaries worldwide."
It sounds like you are asking for wikipedia. The words have more modern definitions, along with the histories and origins. Most of the changes you are refering to have happened in this past 100 years or less. Which is the most rapidly changing century ever.
"The bible may say this or that, but it shouldn’t be used as a source for coming up with definitions, especially about other spirituality practices."
Especially if they were non-existent or unknown by the authors when the book was written.
It sounds like you are asking for wikipedia. The words have more modern definitions, along with the histories and origins. Most of the changes you are refering to have happened in this past 100 years or less. Which is the most rapidly changing century ever.
Now, if only one of two things would happen (or both): a) Wikipedia became an acceptable academic source. b) The definitions in the "acceptable" academic sources would change their definitions.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
The thing about Wikipedia is that it's not really acceptable as an "academic source" since anyone can add to it. Changing the definitions with Webster and other sources like that could be a hard battle, but I feel that I should at least try. I'll post a new blog one day if I succeed.
Tabias-
fabirella Gave a good responce, but the reason that you should love your enemies is also to break the chain of violence in this instance.
If everyone waits for the other person or culture to do something loving, the first step never comes. There have been a chain of wrong + revenge (evil for evil) that stretches back beyond the Crusades between Muslim and Christians. That chain goes forward forever (or until everyone is dead on at least one side) as well if someone does not allow violence to go unavenged. Jesus even clearly states you have to do this repeatedly, not just once. Some people have long memories.
Since this is a very fundamental part of what being a Christian is actually all about, we should have done it centuries ago. The governments of the west are over majority Christian (in name if not in deed) populations, but have only allowed a little influence to creep in. The religious leaders should use their influence to teach peace as Christ did.
Strange, how they can find much more obscure and ancient passages to interfere with the civil rights of others, and miss the central figure in their faiths' primary message.
I think you`ve summed it up well, Chillbill. It`s a very positive message that, if heeded, would resolve a lot of the mess the world`s in.... but it`s not like that going to happen.
"If a man ask of you to go one mile go with him two"
"If you are asked for your coat, give also your shirt"
But the Muslim leaders did not ask for an apology, they asked for peace. If they had asked for an apology it would make sense to give one. It also doesn't really make sense to apologize for what OTHER people have done, when those people may or may not feel sorry for what they've done, so the apology is reduced to comforting words. To a certain level, it's more patronizing than it is constructive.
But I can also see that the church leaders merely wanted to reciprocate the feeling, and agree that how they responded - openly and with brotherly love - was Christlike.
To some extent i tried to agree with everything you have said, but saying "We had done enough to earn the hate they had for us." makes NO SENSE. We have done enough to earn their hate? Who do you think they hate? America? No sir, they don't just hate America, they hate anything that has to do with Christianity, all over the world they do the same thing to Christians even in third world nations, almost EVERYDAY.
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
We have done enough to earn their hate?
Let's see, we've occupied just about every country in the Middle East since the creation of Israel.
The creation of Israel displaced a few million Palestinians.
We leveled parts of the Middle East and assassinated a couple leaders.
I'd hate us, too, if I were them. Of course, a lot of them are wondering why we hate them.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
That would chronical about 40 big conflicts over the past 1400 years where Christian (both European and American) for the most part won the vast majoriy of conflicts with the muslim world. As the victors we have not been as cruel as some, but being beaten or conquored is never popular with the people it is being done to.
Instead since you are claiming the moral high ground with this article I wonder if you can name a few NICE freidly acts we have done for the people of the region? Not things we have done for dictators and kings, but for the people.
Just a few would be good, since I have a hard time thinking of any.
``Who do you think they hate? America? No sir, they don't just hate America, they hate anything that has to do with Christianity...``
I`ve never met a Muslim who hates Christianity. The ones I`ve known see Christians as misguided but not horrible. But I`ve met Muslims who hate America because of Middle Eastern political messes that America has had a part in.
I really don`t think this is about Christianity (nor a hatred of `freedom` which Bush has naively stated.} It`s about political decisions that have affected their lives in very detrimental ways for decades.
The Muslim community has asked for peace.
Seems a lot braver, more mature, more humble, than what you're suggesting. You come across that Christianity is so much better, yet you seem to want to keep this pointless blood feud continuing.
What ever happened to "love thy neighbor as I have loved you?"
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Why should they ask us for peace, we never gave anything that isn't peaceful. They cause all the trouble and then ask for peace, what garbage? Where did you hear that some guy went to blow up a mosque in the name of Jesus, or some pastor blew himself up killing a hundred muslims and said it was in Jesus name? Or where has anybody committed acts of violence and every Christian didn't rebuke him? It is ironic even funny that the pig would ask for some cleanliness.
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
How do you know for sure that Islam supports the terroristic acts that people do under the name of Islam?
What's it matter, anyway? The Christians have just as much blood on their hands as the Muslims. They are both locked into a blood war for reasons no one remembers anymore. The Muslims have finally had it and want to make peace, yet you just spit in their face.
Again, what ever happened to love your neighbor?
What happened to forgive and forget?
What happened to turn the other cheek?
What happened to everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?
The Muslims have acknowledged that they aren't as different from the Christians as people want to believe, let alone polar opposites. Like someone else mentioned before, the only real difference between the two is a couple of prophets.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
It is easy to say stuff like "The Christians have just as much blood on their hands as the Muslims. They are both locked into a blood war", the truth is there is no true Christian that has anything against any Muslim or any other person for that matter.
And "How do you know for sure that Islam supports the terroristic acts that people do under the name of Islam?" Do you live on earth? I don't think so. If one person does stuff in the name of a religion, then the religion might not support that stuff, but when you have tens maybe hundreds of thousands doing that same stuff in the name of a religion and millions(of the religion) who don't do it but support those thatdo it- then i need no more confirmation that the religion supports it.
what ever happened to love your neighbor?
What happened to forgive and forget?
What happened to turn the other cheek?
Absolutely nothing, we don't have anything against them and i wonder what they want to talk about. Maybe they wanted to beg for forgiveness, which we already have given. Or they want us to teach them our principles which enables us to be peaceful even when they're going crazy- i don't know.
-"I am not where i ought to be, i am not where i want to be, but i am thankful that i am not where i used to be".
If one person does stuff in the name of a religion, then the religion might not support that stuff, but when you have tens maybe hundreds of thousands doing that same stuff in the name of a religion and millions(of the religion) who don't do it but support those thatdo it- then i need no more confirmation that the religion supports it.
I'm assuming you're referring to the war going on in the Middle East here. Keep in mind, there are two sides to it. The Muslims are on one, guess who's on the other.
the truth is there is no true Christian that has anything against any Muslim or any other person for that matter.
Really?
Tell that to the gays, the blacks, the Pagans, the Indians, the Aztecs, the Norse, the Africans, all of which have been oppressed, killed, or forcefully converted by Christians. Tell that to all the Muslims the Israelis killed since the creation of Israel.
You yourself would probably have spit in the Muslims face if they'd handed you that letter asking for peace.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
No, i was referring to terrorism.
"Tell that to the gays, the blacks, the Pagans, the Indians, the Aztecs, the Norse, the Africans, all of which have been oppressed, killed, or forcefully converted by Christians. Tell that to all the Muslims the Israelis killed since the creation of Israel."
Guess what, i am African, i never lived anywhere but in black neighborhoods. Tell that to me and i would tell you as an African that the history books are clear. Christians brought us drugs, schools and Churches.
(1) The church was the most active force against slavery and racial segregation. Ask Rev. Martin L. King(One of the most unrecognizable black activists. He wasn't just a Christian; he was a preacher ). Ask John Newton. He was a really successful slave trader until he became a Christian convert then began to fight slavery. He sang amazing grace. http://www.anointedlinks.com/amazing_grace.html
Indians
(2) It is ironic that you would mention Indians because Indians are the one's who actually attack Christianity, they kill Christians because ...well... they are Christians. Apart from that Indians of the lower sect risk being fixated in their poor conditions if they are Christians but they still convert by their thousands. http://www.google.com/search?q=christians+killed+in+india&ie=utf-8&oe=ut...
This bbc story seems to give a slight overview. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/759221.stm
Gays
(3) Christian have nothing against gays. Ask Pastor Donnie McClurkin.
Ask me: http://www.progressiveu.org/233633-i-always-loved-homosexuals-just-never...
Muslims the Israelis killed since the creation of Israel
(4) I know Muslims kill Muslims, i know Jews have been accused of killing Muslims, i know the UN agreed that Isrealis should be allowed the return to their home. I don't know what that has to do with Christians.
Finally, as a Christian i can tell you it is biblically impossible to "force" anyone to be a Christian. It is plainly NOT possible.
But it is possible to say "be a christian and a good christian or we will never let you own land, get a job, or progress in society." So although you can not force someone to become christian, you can leave them with no other option.
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
Try that forcing crap again and see what happens!
Tabias-
Explain a little...cuz I am totally lost with your comment. You replied to me but i don't see any connection and there wasn't enough detail to decipher if you were replying to someone else, so any explanation thanks.
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
No. It is not possible to say ""be a christian and a good christian or we will never let you own land, get a job, or progress in society."". I can tell you that with absolute certainty as a Christian
Its not possible? Why not? 15 years ago Christianity was telling everyone to be rich. 50 years ago it was telling everyone to be married. 100 years ago it was telling everyone to be white. And if people weren't rich, weren't married, or weren't white then they weren't doing everything that it took to be a good christian.
Please explain how it is not possible. Maybe it is not right for christians to do that, maybe your definition of a real christian would never do that, but that doesn't mean it is not possible and has not been done throughout history.
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
I wonder where you get your history from but i know Jesus isn't white or rich and wasn't married. I know most blacks during the slavery were devote Christians. I also know i'm not "rich married nor white" and i consider myself with all humility a Christian.
History from history books usually. And I didn't say jesus I said Christianity. Jesus, in my mind, was a noble leader who exemplified a lot of qualities that are admirable. Christians often skew his message- during slavery most, if not almost all, people believed the bible supported slavery-which technically it is not againist. 50 years ago if you weren't married you were looked down upon b/c it was unnatural and againist god's will. 15 years ago all the televangelists and their followers believed that god wanted them to be rich and that the bible supported this theory.
Times have changed, christians do things differently now b/c christianity has changed. It will change in the future and will, hopefully one day, adpot Jesus' true teaches and ignore all the stupid stuff.
Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted
I find it very frustrating when people tell you not to blame an entire group of people for an act of "holy war" and then they turn right around and complain about how Christianity participated in the Crusades. I am really glad that you addressed the fact that many Christians disagree with the "politically driven motives" of the Crusades, both today and in the past.
I also find it quite humourous and very puzzling that many people will be so willing to defend any faith so long as it is not genuine Christianity. For example, in the beginning of your comments someone was debating with you about Islam. If I am not mistaken (from past blogs and comments by this person)this person is not a Muslim and yet they defend it against Christianity as if they are. Pretty curious....because I am almost certain they would never attempt to defend Christiainity to a Muslim.
"If imperfections are what make us beautiful, then I must be a total babe!"
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/missionsminded-maiden
I find it curious that so many people treat Islam (and other religions) as the "rule" that whenever people do a terroristic act in the name of the religion, that all the members of the religion think that way and that Christianity is the "exception."
People talk about how "evil" and terroristic and wrong Islam is, so others bring up the Crusades (which is rather similar to what's going on today with Islam), and the originals get all offended and say things like "well, real Christians don't support that." The terrorists aren't real Muslims, just like the "Christian" terrorists aren't real Christians.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?