http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11451753/
This MSNBC article is about a 62 year old woman who has just given birth. Now this is my question: is in-vitro fertilization a natural, good way for a struggling couple to have a child or is it playing the role of God or mother nature?
I believe that it is playing God. First, many couples who have in-vitro have to abort children because the doctors implant multiple fertilized eggs into the uterus. Then sometimes there can be 5 viable ones, but the couple doesn't want that many children so they kill off some of the embryos.
Also, God chooses who can and cannot have children of their own Maybe He made a couple infertile so that they would adopt children. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "it entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person."
"The child is not something owed to one, but is a gift."
I understand how difficult it may be for a couple to learn that they are infertile but it may be for the best. Also, in-virto costs thousands of dollars. My mom's friend has already tried in-vitro 3 times, spending $30,000, and each time it was unsuccessful. Not only does it not even work, but it is very expensive. It would be so much better to just adopt. It also messes with a woman's hormones and causes great mood swings. So in the quest of possibly getting pregnant a woman will: spend tons of money, deal with mood swings, abort extra babies if it does work, etc. And my mom's friend is only doing it because her husband wants a son so he can keep the family name. It's crazy.
If I am ever faced with infertility and still want children, I will adopt and I advise the same for other couples as well.
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Don't be so quick to judge. Also, don't lourd the weight of the Catholic church over the rest of us. Step back and make decisions for yourself that don't involve unmarried priests and a Pope who lives in a foreign land. You are obviously young. When faced with this decision many yrs from now I guarantee you'll feel differently. I agree that the 62 year old woman should not have done IVF, but for vastly different reaons. Think how happy your mom's friend would be if it *had* worked - maybe the 1st time.
Amy in PA
Episcopalian
Just completed my 1st cycle of IVF & awaiting pregnancy test results
Well I hope it works out better for you. If it doesn't, though, are you going to try again, spending all that money on something that isn't 100% effective? Would you consider adoption? I also think my mom's friend may not have gotten pregnant because she was over 40, so maybe God knew that if she did have a baby, it would have Down's Syndrome. I don't know about you, but I would feel bad if I tried to have a baby so many times with IVF and then it had a terrible disability. And I don't know how many eggs they implanted, but if a bunch of them were viable, would you abort the "extra" eggs?
Nothing is every 100% effective all of the time, in terms of health and medicine.
And don't forget that doctors discuss the health risks and possible consequences before the woman undergoes the procedure.
So Peppermintfrost, you are very narrow-minded! What if you have fertility problems because of a doctor's mistake? Are you telling me that God doesn't give these doctors the wisdom to be able to do in vitro in the first place? Yes, if in vitro doesn't work, I will adopt. But if I have the money to pay CASH for the procedure that insurance DOES not COVER, shouldn't I be able to try it? I would love to experience carrying a child in my body. I would be okay with a child who had challenges. I would like to have a child that has my husband's eyes and chin. I can see that you are very judgmental and naive. I feel sorry for you and I hope that nothing this tragic happens in your life. I am a very young woman who loves the Lord and believes that he has blessed us with the financial ability to work out the problems that were caused by a careless doctor. Think before you throw out your opinions peppermintfrost!
... | c.hel.sie | ...
Invitro is a gift. My aunt and uncle tried to have kids for eight years. In-vitro finally allowed them to have children. I see nothing wrong with the two beautiful twin cousins I have now. It's a lot easier to say that invitro is bad when you don't have fertility problems around you.
I do have fertility problems around me. Many couples in my family have struggled year after year trying to get pregnant. Sure, it wasn't my personal problem, but I realize how hard they all keep trying. And nothing is wrong with your cousins, I just don't agree with the way that they were concieved. They were conceived by technology; not a sacred sexual act between a married couple. And I don't know your situation, but I hope that other viable embryos weren't killed off in the process. One of my aunts nad uncles was usccessful using in-vtro, but my cousin now has chronic Lyme's disease which he got from his mother when she was pregnant. So manybe she hadn't gotten pregnant for all of those years because God didn't want her to have to raise an unhealthy child. The 1st 3 months of my cousin's life he was always on antibiotics. Yes I'm happy he's alive, but my point is that maybe infertile couples are that way for a bigger reason that they just do not realize yet.
As for "playing god"...anytime of medical assistance can be looked at as playing god. When you go to a hospital with a bullet wound, and you will die if you don't get medical attention, this is the doctor playing god. He is preventing what should naturally happen from happening. When you break your leg, and it's set in a cast, this is a doctor playing god. "Naturally" your leg might get infectied and you might die, or it might regenerate in the sense it is no longer a usable limb. BUt because of medicine, you are avoiding the natural occurance of what SHOULD happen. So in my opinion, allowing medicine to help along the process of getting preggers is equivilant to removing the tumor that is growing in your breast. If it's not removed, you'll die. You are playing god by choosing to allow this person to live longer.
Your examples are so totally different. In-Vitro fertilization actually creates a new life. But it's all done with technology. It's so completely unnatural. Your examples have to do with preserving life...not creating a brand new one.
Are you telling me there is no technology involved in a triple bipass? Or brain surgery? Wow, where have I been.
They are not totally different. Life is life, is it not? By prolonging one's life, you are giving them unnatural life. If a person has a heart attack, technically, naturally, they should die. Rarely, if ever, does one just "survive" a heart attack. When a doctor shocks your heart back into life, you are suddenly given life you didn't have before. It is ver much the same. Extending life is just as good as creating it.
Who cares? Let people have kids. Jesus, you're outlooks are so backwards peppermint, you want people who DON'T want kids to have them (abortions illegal) and you want people who WANT kids not to have them (invitro bad). Logic?
It is different, though. In-virto fertilization is creating an entirely new human being. And in many cases the doctors choose to kill a few of the embryos, when there are a bunch of viable embryos. This is playing God. The things you mentioned, like brain surgery, are just preserving life with the help of technology. In-vitro creates entirely new life.
God often doesn't let people get pregnant for a good reason. Maybe their offspring would have a deformity or disease like Down's Syndrome. Maybe He knows that it would be in their best interests to adopt. But instead, they fight His will and try to make a baby themselves, in a petri dish. And these couples spend such an excessive amount of money. My mom's ex-best friend has already spent $30,000+ on in-virto attempts that have thus far not worked. Is that really worth it? Adoption is a viable solution.
Who are you to say how one spends their money? If they want to spend 100,000 on trying to get pregnant what right do you have to tell them no? Just because it doesn't work for your friend doesn't mean it doesn't work. I know a couple who got invitro after 8 years of trying for pregnancy and are now pregnant with triplets, and couldn't be happier.
Next, you didn't argue my point which leads me to believe that your opinion holds little weight. What is the difference between medically inabling someone to live longer than nature and "God" would have wanted them to, and medically allowing a woman to have an embryo, of her own and her husbands dna embedded in her? Your excuse of "maybe God has a good reason for not getting her pregnant". Well, then, maybe God has a good reason for giving people cancer, and we shouldn't treat them with any medical help because God did it for a reason and who are we to try to destroy the cancer which God has put in someone's body for a reason? Get it now? All doctor's play God. They prevent death, cause death, give life, prolong life, take it away. To say that invitro is playing God, but reviving someone whose heart has stopped beating by running electricity through their body isn't is hypocritical.
And "God doesn't want them to have the baby because maybe they'll have down syndrome". Well then, how come it's not ok in your opinion to abort a child with down syndrome? If we shouldn't be allowed to CREATE a child that MAY have downsyndrome, why should we be allowed to give birth to a child that has down syndrome?
Your arguments are not logical and too strongly wrapped around religious fundamentals.
Get some stats that God "often" chooses not to get people pregnant. Is it like Santa, does he have a list of people who get to be pregnant biologically and who get bioogical abnormalities that prevent women from conceiving? You act like you're best buddies with God an you know what he's thinking. Maybe God has nothing to do with it, maybe there is no God. I don't think you should deny a woman motherhood because she might not be getting pregnant for a reason. I find it hard to believe that God would impregnant a 12 yr old girl in Kentucky, and expect her NOT to get an abortion, but not impregnante a 30 year old married woman capable and wanting of a child and expect them to sit by and take it. I don't know what God you pray to, but the more I read your blogs, the more I'm happy I don't associate with the Catholic church anymore.
I did argue your point. There's a difference between technologically sustaining life and technologically creating a brand new life.
The Down's Syndrome comment was just an example. You can't abort any baby because it's God creation which you should not have the ability to destroy and end its right to life. Maybe God doesn't want a couple to have a Down's Syndrome baby because He knows they aren't financially albe to raise it properly. Maybe they aren't ready for that much stress. We can't even begin to know God's reasoning for everything. If a couple naturally gets pregnant with a baby with Down's Syndrome, obviously God knows that they are strong enough to handle it. There's such a difference. We don't nearly know as much as God.
Okay, 1st off, there is a God. I know He exists. Even if you may not know Him yet, I do. He is my everything. And you're right: no human could ever know what GOd is thinking. But the Bible gives us some important clues. How can He expect her to get an abortion? Every human being is perfect in God's eye. He doesn't create anything bad. How can He approve to the murder of a precious, innocent baby? And He knows so much more than us. Maybe He knows that the 30 yr old will have huge health problems if she goes through with a pregnancy. Maybe He knows that come crisis will happen in her life ans she can't handle a child. There are so many what-ifs. And only God knows the answer to them, so we need to trust in Him.
good very good
Do you notice something? your argument is full of "maybe he thinks this, maybe he thinks that". Again, I restate, MAYBE THERE IS NO GOD.
And again, I respect your religious beliefs, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. But then explain to me my example with cancer. Why is it ok to treat a disease, which God has given to a person because apparently he thinks they can handle it, but it's not ok to treat infertility, also a disease? Your logic is full of loopholes.
Plus, you are sugar coating the bible. The bible also says men are allowed to sell their women and daughters into slavery, that homosexuals and those who practice sodomy should be put to death, and the term "God hates" is used quite often in the bible. If you stick firmly to the bible, you'd figure out God doesn't love everyone, hense, he destoryed sodom. Actually READ the bible. And again, I'll push my point further. A woman is brain dead. She is going to die if she is taken off life support. She is SUPPOSED to die. Doctors and family can keep her on a respirator for another 12 years "alive". You consider this not playing God? Deciding how long someone lives for, deciding that they aren't "ready" to die, that they "shouldn't die"? At the end of the day, invitro can still be a husband and wife's sperm. It's still a child of a loving couple. Again, infertility is a DISEASE, a MEDICAL CONDITION. It's not a choice one makes, and if you're going to argue that it's playing God to try to cure a disease, to try and treat a medical condition, then you should go protest the labratories coming up with treatments to cancer, you should protest leukemia patients because their doctor's are trying to work around a problem God has given them.
You tend to speak on behalf of God a lot. "He knows, he loves us, he's this, he's that". In reality, you can say you know, but you don't. You have no idea, no one does, that's what faith is, a belief in something with no substantial proof. Do you think GOD ordained it that a person who gets divorced an't get remarried in a church unless they pay a donation to the church? You should look into the scandels of the Catholic church over the past few years a little more, you might learn something as I did about the brainwashing. In my opinion, it's more important to be spriritual and a good person and lead a good life than to stick by the rules of a book which for all anyone's sure of, was written by power hungry overzealous men 2000 years ago.
There's still a difference between treating a disease and in-vitro. You aren't just treating infertility. You're creating an entire new human being. That's God's job. Not a doctor's job.
"Actually READ the bible. "
-As I've said before, not everything in the Bible is literal. And with the 10 Commandments, obviously killing anyone is against God.
Did I say I agree with all ofrms of life support? No. I don't agree that a person should be kept on a respirator for years, just so they can still be "alive."
And you still aren't seeing the differences here. There's a difference between treating someone and making them healthy than creating an entirely new life. That's when it's considered playing God because a new human is being created through technology.
" Do you think GOD ordained it that a person who gets divorced an't get remarried in a church unless they pay a donation to the church? "
-You obivously don't even know how annulments work. An annulment is the void of a marriage. You can only get one if you have legitimate proof that for some reason your marriage didn't count as a true marriage. If you just divorce because you don't love your partnere anymore, you'll never get an annulment no matter how much money you pay. And any sexual or otherwise relations with a partner in the future will be considered adultery because God will still consider you as married. But this post isn't about marriage or annulments; it's about in-vitro.
"Hungry, overzealous men?"
-Wow, not quite. IF they were that way, they never would have followed Jesus because He sure wasn't rich and couldn't really give them any financial fulmillment or fame or whatnot. He was a humble carpenter. And His followers followed Him because they saw and believed, and that's the same reason why I and many other Christians follow Him. He is my Way, my Truth, and my Life. No, let me re-phrase that: He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. For everyone. Even if they don't realize it yet. Nobody will get to the Father except through Him.
Quick note, invitro can be both good, and playing God. The qestion should be this, is it bad to play God?
~CallieV
I have no problem with in vitro fertilization.
If a woman has the money to do so, then why not? Besides, adoption costs a lot of money as well, especially if your job isn't helping you out with the costs. To adopt from foster care it could be up to $2500, which isn't too bad; but to adopt an infant, domestically, it can cost up to $40,000.
Adoption may be the answer for some couples, and that is great. But others do not want a child that already exists. There is nothing wrong with that.
Not everyone holds religion to be true, so your whole "playing god" argument is just a waste of time to that population.
You're right-I see no difference in people determing when life begins (invitro) and when life ends (medical treatments, surgery, life support, etc).
And by "power hungry over zelous men". what the hell does that have to do with finance? By overzelous I meant they were REALLY enthusiastic about what they believed in and what they thought was right, etc. Where did you pull anything about money from?
I agree with the above poster, religion doesn't play a part in everyone's lives as you do. God is not "my way, my light, my blah blah" as he is yours. My life and family and friends are my "way". Please do not tell me that "someday" i will learn, because that's equivilant to saying "someday you will learn there ISN'T a god that you think there is".
And if not all of the bible is literal, how do you pick apart the pieces that are literal? I see the part about selling your wife and daughter to slavery as literal.
And as for the 10 comms. They aren't exactly a moral chart. If a man was chasing a woman to kill her, and you hid the woman in your closet, and the man asks "have you seen this woman" and you lie, what's the worse commandment broken? Lying, to the guy, or telling the truth and giving the woman up for murder? I think the 10 commandments are open to opinon. I dont consider abortion murder, and therefore that wouldn't apply to me.And as for the church deal, I wasn't talking about an anullment. I am talking about the fact that if a person gets divorced, technically they are not allowed to get remarried in a church. However, if the persn makes a large enough donation, they will be allowed to remarry in the church. My uncle did this. My point was that many religions, esp catholicism (and im catholic) is raught with hypocrocy and scandel. And my point was that you, who are so incredibly involved in your religion, should study it a little more. In my pinion, being a good Christian is knowing when your religion is right, and when it is wrong. You use "christian" and catholic examples to back up your opinions, but those examples can be difused and undermind by the issues that many people have with the church itself. You can't base logic on religion, because technically there isn't much logic TO religion. You can't force people to think something is murder because your religion thinks it's murder, or force people into believing that it's God's decision who is born, because not everyone believes in God.
"I agree with the above poster, religion doesn't play a part in everyone's lives as you do. God is not "my way, my light, my blah blah" as he is yours. My life and family and friends are my "way". Please do not tell me that "someday" i will learn, because that's equivilant to saying "someday you will learn there ISN'T a god that you think there is". "
-I don't think there's a God. I know He exists and that He is our only route to salvation. You just don't know that yet.
"My uncle did this. My point was that many religions, esp catholicism (and im catholic) is raught with hypocrocy and scandel."
-You can't call yourself a Catholic if you believe that. That's so untrue. But I just hope GOd gives you the grace to one day find Him because He is the only true happiness in this life.
I think this is a perfectly acceptable way to get pregnant. You should be allowed to have kids, even if it is done scientifically.
You can have kids: by means of adoption. If every couple could successfully reproduce, there would be so many more children up for adoption today. Everything happens for a reason and I believe that the inability to reproduce also happens for a reason. It's a way to get kids out of orphanages and adoption facilities.
I call myself a ctholic because that's what I was raised as. Do I believe have the stuff I learned? Of course not.
How can you say the Catholic church ha snot been raught with scandel over the years? Pedophiles, unneccessary charges for "reprivals", hell look at the church from 1500-1700. It was a powerhouse of authority.
You need to actually reasearch and learn about your religion.
But you have to call yourself what you actually are now. And it doesn't seem like you agree with Catholicism's ideals, so no, I don't think you can call yourself a Catholic.
Of course the Church has had scandal. Scandal is within every group of people. And nobody said the people of the Church are perfect. They're human; they sin and err. That doesn't mean that the Church is to blame. Is it the Church's fault that some of the priests have become pedophiles? No, I don't believe so.
Believe me, I know about my religion.
I'm Catholic. I believe in God. I am also an IVF baby. Does that mean I have no right to be here? If God didn't mean for me to be born, then why didn't I die during childbirth?
You say you 'know about your religion' but the impression you're giving me is that you 'know about your religion' because you've read the Bible and believe every word. Knowing your religion means first being open to other religions and accepting other people's ideas and values. I don't agree with everything the Catholic church says, but that doesn't make me any less of a Catholic. You must have a very narrow-minded view of the world if you agree with everything the Church says.
The Catholic Church says that you're not allowed to use contraception because it could stop you from getting pregnant. The Church is against homosexual marriage. The church is against abortion. Are you saying you agree with all of these things? What about if a girl was raped by a member of her family, and as a result she got pregnant. The baby would most probably be born with some kind of deformity as a result of genetics. Would you be against this girl having an abortion?
Why should a woman be denied the chance to have a baby because she cannot conceive through 'natural' means? How are you to know that someone who is an IVF baby will not grow up to influence the world in some great way? If God was so against IVF then he would not have given Robert Edwards the ability to make such a remarkable discovery.
If you aren't open to other people's opinions, you canont expect anyone to be open to yours. It's fine for you to follow God. It's find for you to love God. But don't try and BE God and pass your judgement onto others.
"The Catholic Church says that you're not allowed to use contraception because it could stop you from getting pregnant. The Church is against homosexual marriage. The church is against abortion. Are you saying you agree with all of these things?"
-Yes, I agree 100% with these things. As a Catholic, I feel that we should agree with and believe in the Church's teachings. Otherwise, we aren't truly Catholic if we don't agree with their ideals.
Yes, I would be against her having an abortion. FIrst off, if you're raped and you don't want a child you can put it up for adoption. Second, only 1% of rapes ever lead to pregnancy. Third, the baby may not have a deformity. And if it did, would that be a justification to end its life? Do you believe that parents who know their baby will have Down's Syndrome should abort them? I don't. Every person, no matter what their handicapp, has the right to life.
"Why should a woman be denied the chance to have a baby because she cannot conceive through 'natural' means?"
-She's not denied anything. She can and should adopt.
And I'm not judging anyone. I'm not saying anyone who has IVF is a bad person. I'm not saying I hate anyone who has gotten an abortion. What I hate is the act. The act of IVF, abortion, homosexual sex, etc. I hate all of those things, but I'm not judging the person. That's up to God. All I can do is lead people in the right direction so that when it comes time for final judgement, hopefully they will have pure enough souls so that they can make it to Heaven.
Okay, first thing, I think people had good arguments for for and against this topic.
I am a catholic and I still believe that if a woman cannot have a child but wants one, then she should be able to, whether by means of IVF, adoptions or fostering. Maybe it’s because I don’t know much about IVF but if it can give life and hope to just one couple who wants something of their own to love then it is a good thing.
God gave us the ability to make our own decisions and to make our own mistakes. He gave us the free will to make our own lives and to be ourselves and HE LOVES US no matter what! Even if we are gay, or homeless, or don’t even believe in him. The God I love gives us the opportunity to live our own lives without him ruling us with an iron fist. God’s not a dictator.
I believe that people should have to choose to use contraception, have an abortion or be gay, if that's what they want or if it’s who they are. I personally would not have an abortion because I believe that life starts at the moment of conception. I have catholic friends and non-catholic friends who would get an abortion but that is their prerogative and I still love them even though we have different views. Who are WE to say that God will damn or hate people for doing these things! I do not believe we will go to hell if we are gay or use condoms or get an abortion. I may have a strong belief that an abortion is wrong because I believe that it is killing life but I also have a strong belief that it is up to the individuals to make up there own minds.
And I believe that WE shouldn’t judge them, it’s not our place. God teaches us love and acceptance, understanding, forgiveness. We should be loving and helping people, not trying to change theirs views of ideas just to suit our own. That’s not what we’re about. I know a gay guy who is the nicest guy I’ve ever met, who is catholic and wouldn’t hurt a fly. I also know of a gay guy who is pretty against Catholics. Everybody is different, so we should be able to make our own decisions without being attacked for it.
p.s. you can still be religious and a good catholic and not believe in everything the Church says. In reality, the Church today is made up of a group of men and not everybody if going to believe in what they do or say. That’s life. Accept it.
"He gave us the free will to make our own lives and to be ourselves and HE LOVES US no matter what!"
-Yes, He does love us no matter what,but just His love alone won't get us to eternal paradise in Heaven. We need to follow His will.
"Who are WE to say that God will damn or hate people for doing these things!"
-He wouldn't hate us because He loves even murderers, but we would be sinning and if we were to die before Confession, we would most likely end up in eternal damnation in Hell. God doesn't want His precious children to be killed because of selfish mothers.
We aren't judging. We're showing people the path of God. We're leading them in the right way. Yes, we have free will, but that doesn't mean we should go out and do anything we want just because God gave us free will. The reason we have that free will is so He can see who is truly one of His followers. Who will obey Him even when they have free will and aren't forced to.
No, true Catholics agree with the Church's teachings. You can't be Catholic, but then not agree with Catholic ideaologies. They're all a part of Catholicism. Yes, the Church is a group of men, but it is the Pope who is in ultimate control. And the Pope is infallible. Everything He says is what God wants; not the Pope's own humanly decisions.
Mezza, awesome post.
Peppermintfrost, the church at one time believed in the Inquisition, in burning women alive at stakes as well as drowning them alive for harboring withc craft and devil worshiping in their homes. The Catholic Church at one point in time had three popes, all of whom claimed rightful rule over christianity, claiming that they all were chosen by God. Why? Because it was a power trip. The Catholic Church IS NOT ALWAY RIGHT. Just because they haven't changed some rules yet, doesn't mean they won't soon. Just because some of their "rules" are still in effect doesn't mean they are correct.
Let me give you a little lesson in Catholic history. Are you aware that Christianity, and mainly Catholics, were violent power zealous human beings for oh...1600 years or so? Are you aware that they destroyed other cultures and civilzations on a "quest" to purify other people, to convert those to who did not believe in Christianity? Do you realize that they imposed their religion on Native Americans, and ridiculed and mocked other relgiions as "myths" and herecy? Are you aware that for a period of almost 700 years, The Papcy was a position of authority in terms of MONEY and land ownership, an authority backed up by a fear of God? Do you realize that it wasn't until fairly recently that the Catholic CHurch cleaned it's act up and changed it's monsterous ways? That the Catholic Chrch for long periods of time rejected scientific notions, theories, laws? Hey, look at the whole Galileo thing. Are you aware that in the beginning of the 20th century, many Catholic CHurches in Europe forbade any person in their seminaries from studying anything that might deny beliefs of the church, even if it was in Vatican records? That most of the men weren't even allowed to read newspapers because the Church was so fearful the outside information would help debunk the church's outlook, and sway the opinions of their leaders?
The Catholic Church has changed a GREAT deal over time. Rules change for a reason, because society and science change. Did you expect the church to continue portraying the earth as the center of the universe long after man had stepped foot on the moon? The church isn't always right. In fact, it rarely is. That's why it takes BELIEF to be a follower. Too many things are fallacies in the Catholic church.
I agree with the above blogger. If INV is so wrong, why did God give man the ability to do it? If God creates everything, and INV isn't natural enough for you and him apparently, why did he allow this invention not only to come about, but succeed like it has?
And for the love of God, you keep talking about adoption but you're missing ah huge point. Some couples don't want to ADOPT. They want their own flesh and blood, their own babie, they want a child who looks like them, who is part of them. Some women spend their whole lives DYING to go through pregnancy, childbirth, all of that, they WANT the mommy affect. And honestly, picking a baby up who is Cambodian, Asian, Russian, who is already 8 months old, who is someone else's child sometimes doesn't cut it for people. I'm not saying always, because clearly some people love their adopted children as their own and it works for them. But it isn't a solution that works for everybody. You are missing that point.
You will learn one day that all of the answers to life's toughest problems are not in a book written thousands of years ago by men. You will learn that while God may give you strength, he does not solve your problems for you. You will learn that sometimes, there is no right answer, but a lesser of two evils. You are still very young and from the sound of it, very naive and brainwashed by religion. I went to catholic school for 8 years, received my sacraments, I ave three nuns in my family, we are hard core Irish Catholic. But I learned that sometimes God doesn't solve your problems and you have to find your way without him. And while you can sit there and spew your idea that "HE DOES EXIST! HE REALLY IS REAL I KNOW HE IS YOU WILL TOO", I know that I have found my way without him too many times to ever count on him again. Do I believe there's a God? I think so. I believe there's something. Do I believe he wrote a book of rules 2000 years ago and expected people to live word by word by it in today's society, which is entirely different from the society that it was apparently collectively written in? Not at all. There is no word of INV in the bible, no word of abortion, no word on the evils of masturbation and very ltitle on homosexuality. As I've said before, if you believe the bible in it's entirety, women are not humans but property, as the bible encourages the sales of wives and daughters to slavery. It speaks of God's hate and wrath for certain people, etc.
Just because you don't agree with something (INV) don't assume God doesn't either. You and God aren't buddies, you aren't pals, he doesn't tell you secrets and you alone do not know what he wants and doesn't. You make assumptions on what he would think is right and wrong based on what you think is right and wrong. And what you think is right and wrong is based on what a bunch of high ranking men in the Catholic church think is right and wrong. Branch out from the religion once in a while and maybe you'll see what I saw-my opinions are entirely my own, not made up of someone else's beliefs.
"If INV is so wrong, why did God give man the ability to do it? If God creates everything, and INV isn't natural enough for you and him apparently, why did he allow this invention not only to come about, but succeed like it has?"
-You could argue that for everything. Why did He create diseases? Why did he let people develop cloning? Why did He let people develop bombs?...and the list goes on and on. Because He doesn't impede our ability to think for ourselves and exercise free will. You think that since He "let" us make guns, then He doesn't mind if we kill each other?
"Some women spend their whole lives DYING to go through pregnancy, childbirth, all of that, they WANT the mommy affect. "
-But some women can't get pregnant naturally. That's the way it is. They weren't given the gift of fertility. So they should take adoption to their advantage. Or they can just keep trying and maybe one day they will get pregnant. If not, it wasn't meant to be.
"You will learn that while God may give you strength, he does not solve your problems for you. "
-Oh, but that's where your wrong. He does solve our problems...mabye not in the way we'd like, but He definitely does.
You tell 'em Stefanie!
Peppermint Frost:
The pop is infallible. Yet he worked for the Hitler's Nazi Youth program.
RESEARCH YOUR HISTORY.
If the pope is infallible, which one was correct when THREE popes were appointed and argued over control of the papacy 300 years ago? They ALL claimed God was talking through them, which one was right? My bet? None, because all they wanted was the wealth power and land that came with the catholic church.
The pope is infallible, God speaks through him? Oh God, get over it. God doesn't choose the popes, a conclave of HUMANLY BISHOPS do. You are way way way way way too brainwashed by religion. I swear, with you it seems like if a priest told you to run into a wall until you bled because Jesus asked him to tell you to do it, you would. You are going to have a rough time in life kid. I hope "God's grace" is enough to get you through the bullshit lies you've been told.
Also, your comment of "some women can't get pregnant, that's just the way it is". Well you know what, we can say that about a lot of things. "Welp, that girl has cancer, that's just the way it is". Just because you think God will be pissed off at you is no reason to sit back and take the shitty parts of life.
And you can believe what you want about God contorling our lives and we're just the players, but I believe differently. We all control our own lives in my opinion, we solve our own problems.
And you just contradicted your own entire point about God being totally in control with your idea that god created guns and stuff. Where do we draw the line of what God wants? How do you know God doesn't have the same emotions as people, that he didn't create guns for the purpose of killing people? God kills and takes away life, does he not? The point is YOU DON'T KNOW. You can sit and spend hours guessing but you just don't know because religious is FAITH BASED and revolves around personal assumptions and beliefs. You can sit there and say "God doesn't want women to have invitro because it isn't natural and they just need to take the hit". I can turn around and say "God created invitro to help women overcome their problems and have a family they deserve of their own flesh and blood, God doesn't care as long as it's a child that will be raised with love". HOW DO YOU KNOW WHO IS RIGHT? Last I checked, the bible didn't state a whole lot on invitro fertilization. You assume based on OTHER ideas that the catholic church, not god, the catholic church has on separate issues, but you just don't know.
Don't know things 'til youre in the shoes kid. You got a lot of growing up to do. As I said before, life isn't black and white like the bible.
Hi all, just had to add my two cents worth. I am a woman of excellent health and am extremely fortunate to have the ability to get pregnant. My husband was in excellent health and had the ability to father our children naturally. Medical technology during a hernia operation on my husband damaged his ability to keep his sperm viable to impregnate me. We were fine before, now we are not. That was not God's will that was a slip of the knife from a surgeon that we found out later had many such complications with his surgeries. We tried adopting and guess what, where we live that was not an option. We had our names on waiting lists for years. We were approved for adoption but where we live there are no children to adopt. We tried to adopt via the fostering system but where we live there were no children available. Please keep in mind that it is easy to say that God wants it this way and it is his "will" that you adopt. Easy said until you look at the statistics in our area. How can it be God's will that we adopt when adoption is not an option. I personnally don't believe in trying to read HIS mind and tell other people what HIS personal message is to an individual. I am under the belief that many things are God's will and it will be different for different situations and different people. In our case, there are no other options for the type of medical problem that this surgeon caused other than IVF. The procedure and medical staff that performed it was our true God sent miracle. Our doctors worked with us to ensure that we did not have excess embryos to "waste". Our doctors would not implant more than the two viable embryos because of risks to fetuses and mother. They are not in the business of putting us at risk, they are doctors not entrepreneurs out to make a buck. In our instance 2 embryos were viable, implanted and are now our miracle children from God. (NOTE: There were three remaining embryos that we tried to have adopted but unfortunately this was not meant to be.) HE (God) gave us back what a surgeon took away. I cannot believe that God would have allowed us to conceive our babies if it was not HIS will. They are our entire life and our belief in God and HIS will has been reaffirmed in their existence. I highly recommend going for a consult with a doctor trained in IVF if you have trouble conceiving. If he/she is truly a professional then I have every confidence in you having an eye opening discussion and seeing how their work can be an extension of God's will. They understand concerns of not wanting multiple pregnancies, multiple embryos that would need to be disposed of in some fashion. And please keep in mind that most clinics now have embryo adoptions set up so that women who cannot produce eggs can adopt embryos so there is no reason for destruction of embryos if there are more than a family can handle raising on their own. All embryos can have a chance at life. It is truly a wonderful miracle. These are my thoughts. They come from a person that has gone through the agonizing years of trying to conceive, being told we could then having it ripped from our grasp. Then having our hopes of adoption also negated. Then having the miracle of IVF. It is not for everyone and if you have a reputable doctor and clinic they will be honest with you about that. Good luck to everyone posting on this board and those who read it. I hope I have enlightened some that have not experienced (and I hope never have to experience) the agony of trying to concieve month after month after month with no success. Go easy on your friends, family and acquaintances that have this difficult path and please do not judge them. That is between themselves and God. And please remember that God has a different path chosen for each of us and it is not our right to alter that path put before them or to judge them for the choices they make. Yours in faith, Linda
im 18 and i discovered the only way i can have kids is by in vitro. I dont think peppermintfrost that you will truly never understand whats its like knowing you cant have kids naturally. like honestly it sucks. so i dont obviously see whats wrong with me wanted to have kids and doing what i need to do to have them. like honesly you will just never know how it feels and what its like to go through what i did. why should i have to suffer and not have a family? if technology has given me a way to do so i will take it. i dont see how its fair for me never to get the pleasure of being a mother. like i said you dont understand how it feels. and im jelous that you never will. however some of us are not as fortunate as you so we have to improvise and do what we can to make us happy.