No one has ever known, seen, heard, felt, anything tangible that can be considered "God". If you say you have, you're lying. No, God did not write the bible, nor did he write any other books (such as the Koran). But there is one thing we can say about God. More deaths have been result of his name than the combination of all the wars that America has been in. Apparently, God is responsible for more deaths than Hitler; and let me add that there has been no evidence of 'Him' ever saving anyone's life. So I say: FUCK GOD! He is a tyrant, an oppressor, and a ruthless killer. He is a commander of death. If he created us, why does he have to allow so much death. Has he abandoned us? Has he gone on vacation? Why does influence us to kill?
FUCK GOD
By Oedipus - Posted on May 1st, 2006
If he abandon us, it'd be because of people like you. And yes God is in my life, I do talk to him, and he does respond. The whole thing of PROOF...well that's why it is called faith. I'll pray for you and people like you. God has been around for a lot longer than Hitler also. And he is not the cause. It is the people that misinterpret his word. But he made us, so who are we to judge HIM. You are shameless.
-Hutch
"What can I say, that can explain, all this time I'm loving life..."
-The Starting Line
You're amazing, thank you SO much. I saw that persons blog and I just had the same reaction as you, and then I saw your reply and it made me glad, simple as that. Thank you for standing up for God.
You have no idea what you're talking about. He talks back to you? Or you hope that's him talking back to you? The Whold thing of FAITH, yeah that could be a pretty easy way to shut down any reasoning involved. Why do you think there is only one God? Why do you think God has lived longer than Hitler? How much longer than Hitler? Were you just told this information on god? Or did you logically deduce it?
Please don't give me any more of that faith crap; if god exists, he gave us the ability to reason --SO UTILIZE THIS ABILITY!!
Do you believe in anything? Faith in any higher power? This past summer I lost my way for a while and it was the roughest time of my life. When I found God again, it was amazing. Sometimes when I'm sad, depressed, upset, I sit down and pray and I close my eyes and I can feel someone holding me and I open my eyes and no one is there, not physically anyway. But the Holy Spirit is there holding me. As Christians we are taught to be missionaries, however, I have a hard time teaching to atheists because they make arguments just like yours. Faith? Where's the facts? That's just the thing. If you don't have faith, it sounds crazy, ludicrous, nuts! But when you find faith, it's an amazing experience and it enhances your life. So I encourage you to just think about it. If a friend invites you to church, go along. I have questioned my faith and questioned whether God does exist and I always come back to that He has to. Nothing makes sense without God and I'm unhappy when God's not in my life.
Taking leaps of faith is hard for someone like me. I can't believe in something only because I would like to believe in it. If I did, I'd feel like I'm living a lie. If praying makes you feel all warm and fuzzy then go right ahead. But don't argue the nature of existence with these leaps of faith.
Are you happy?
Yes sir
No you are not. You are hopeless. You might achieve economically. Why can't you find the answers to death? Why did that person just died? Why cant you avoid those feelings once in a while. just like you THINK you lack belief in god...ALL OF US HERE KNOW HOW SAD AND MISERABLE YOU ARE...NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY. TSK TSK. I AM SO SORRY FOR YOU ...PITY AND LOVE I FEEL FOR YOU STUPID ONES! :-)
On what basis do you challenge Oedipus' proclamation of happiness? Do you know him personally? Are you friends with him? Can you read his mind? Or is it perhaps that his happiness simply threatens the assertions of your faith by disproving one of its basic underpinnings? It is unfortunate that your religious beliefs blind you to the fact that two-thirds of the world get along just fine without belonging to a christian chruch, or practicing the christian religion or believing in the christian "god." If you feel the need to pity someone, perhaps you should pity yourself for the portion of your life that has been lost while seeking meaning in these bronze-aged superstitions.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Marriage in the Bible
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You think because you feel there is a god then that means there is. You say have faith and all will be revealed and felt. Yet do you tell a person who loses a leg to have faith that the Phantom pains are real. That they really can feel their legs and it will be there. NO! You see the human mind is very complex and there are many things we do not know about it, like why if we give two people meds, one real and the other sugar, they will both get better at the same pace if not faster with sugar pills. Why? Because the mind thinks it is getting medicine it isn't. That doesn't matter since most of the problem in most sick people is that they "know" they are sick. Just like you "know" something was missing in your life. You had no idea anything was wrong until someone sles put the idea of god into your head. God is just a sugar pill for those who can't accept that we die and become a form of food for other living beings. What if I told you this Giant theory about how god is just the easy way out. would you have faith in my beliefs then? No? Why not cuz your sugar pill tastes better? Point in hand is this you can say have faith but faith is a feeling not a fact. Did you know that John Wayne Gacey felt that he was aloud and to kill? Did you know that Son Of Sam was told to kill people by a dog that lived next to his house. Odd sounds kinda like "I pray and god holds/talks to me" doesn't it!
God for most ppl is just an escape. Its the missing something in their life. I believe that those ppl that think that god exists are just blind in their faith, and its not a fact that god exists.
Faith-is not a feeling but the "assure expectations of things hoped for , the evident demonstration of realities even not beheld" (hebrews 11:1).
The scriptures are so helpful and correct ot lead our lives, they are scientifically correct even before the times of scientific acknowledgemnt (2 tim 3:16,17 ; Isaiah 40:22).
Really. there are so many reasons to have faith. But as a ture intelligent being we should seek truth and so that way we can know what god has to say and then make our decision based on what we've learned "from the horses mouth".
One thing that is guaranteed is inevitability. Whether you choose to believe or not will be your everlasting decision. The inevitable destruction of evil WILL occur again for the final time. Ignorance will be no excuse. Seek now the truth before it's too late. The warning signs of the last days approaching have been given, do not forsake them. These ARE the last days. No further posting will be made.
http://music490s.fortunecity.com
Baseless assertions of negative consequences is a logical fallacy. You'll have to do better than that if you want to win any respect for your opinions here at ProU.
TTFN,
Blackout
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God also has manifested Himself to me and speaks to me. This is just one of the things that I enjoy so much about having this new life in Christ. I used to be an exceptionally wicked sinner years ago and was bored out of my mind and miserable after awhile. I remember chasing after pleasure and going to all the clubs, dressing up really snazzy and flaunting myself out on the town, enjoying the looks I was getting. But this really got old fast bc I was never satisfied and always chasing some thrill that I never did quite achieve. Just having a great body and looking awesome and feeling powerful bc you're hot is a lot of fun for awhile but it doesn't bring any sort of lasting joy on the inside. I remember doing things then that I would never do now. I was a backstabber, adulterer, fornicator, drunk, drug abuser, and other things that I wont go into here. I worked at being a great sinner; I was one of the Devil's favorite puppets. Having a lot of animosity and bile and bitterness in me from being forced to go to a cult church that was then known as the wcg; some will know what I am talking about; I had a PASSION OF HATRED AGAINST RELIGION OF ANY KIND. I ended up trying to commit suicide and being tossed into an insane asylum, going to prison, and getting a divorce, loosing custody of my kids, and suffering a LOT. I even tried other humiliating and degrading lifestyles in search of happiness. It is a wonder that I am still here and not dead. I don't mind so much when someone criticizes the person I was since that person no longer exists. I am a living, breathing testimony to the awesome power of Jesus Christ. I AM NOT ASHAMED!!!
You need to be ashamed mister I am Gods creature and creation! "I was a backstabber, adulterer, fornicator, drunk, drug abuser, and other things that I wont go into here. I worked at being a great sinner; I was one of the Devil's favorite puppets." Sounds like you are doing what you "GOD" does Since he created us in his image. Right?
So you're saying that "god" came and told you to stop doing all that. Obviously not, you would be mentaly retarded if u say otherwise. You just wanted an escape, and "GOD'S" just that, its the reason in your mind, coz your mind doesnt have a logical explanation. Its just like that quote " Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it, because of course you're not really looking. You don't really want to know. You want to be fooled."
I was born in a Christian family and have been a Christian all my life, but I know finally know the truth of God's 'so called word'. Tell me then, since your such a zombie of Christ, why does it say in the Bible he regretted making us, and if he really can see the future he must have known we'll commit sins. Admit it: he just uses us as fucking puppets and tells us that if we serve him we'll all have life in all eternity. But his idea of life in eternity is by taking away all the best things in life like marrige, sex, love and trust. Then all we have to do is go 'Praise the Lord' for all eternity. To me Hell sounds WAYYY better than God's so called perfect Heaven. And you can pray for me all you want: praying is a waste of time and has NO effect. Look at the world today, and that's because of praying. God is an absolute piece-of-shit if you ask me. At least Satan has use for us by trying to dethrone God, but God sees us as unworthy of anything. Why did the fucker create us then if he regrets it?
Where does it say that he regrets making us? I would like a scripture please.
Clergy men have fooled so many for years and they have used the scriptures to their own advantage. It's as if you wrote a poem and a guide book and people took only what they liked or twisted or omitted words for their own benefit. How would you feel?
I know you must feel hatred for all the things clergy people told you and your family...I don't know exactly how you feel, but I have heard many people say that they feel "cheated". God feels anger that these men who claim to serve him...only dirty his name and twist his word.
From the story of Noah
The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." (NIV)
Cheers,
DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Hutch
Just who the hell are you to judge opedipus? And who the hell are you to say that god would abandon him?
If god was that flaky nobody would follow him.
Its because of ********** that the christian society is misunderstood.
You say you're proud to be a christian with that kind of attitude, calling other people who don't believe in god shameless?
People can believe whatever the hell they want. It's not our job to put down those who don't have faith in what we do.
Do you think you can insult others just because you have more "insight" or you're closer to "god"?
Because by calling other people shameless and slandering other people "in the name of god", it just shows how clueless you are and how little you know about our beliefs.
***TOS Violation, Edited by Blackout on 08/08/2009.***
God is not necessarily a "he" or a "she." God is a concept. If you're angry about people killing and dying over religious, that anger should be directed against the people who kill, not the concept. Its people and their twisted ideas that lead to killing.
Your opinion is exactly how I feel. I am attacking fundamentalists who think a god controls everything, and that everything that happens is his/her doing.
I feel very sorry for you.
...not as sorry as I feel for you.
I'm glad to see someone stand up against all these Christians that believe that "God" has saved them. When in reality, their God is a malevolent god who spreads hate. Religion is the cause of almost every war on this planet and it this reason why every other country hates us. I'm tired of this indoctrinated country and there ignorant beliefs based on nothing but "Faith." Anyways, I 100% agree with what you have said and I'm glad to see there are more people that are starting to see the truth out there. Have a great day.
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
-Richard Dawkins
Oh I agree so much that religion has caused soo much pain. I agree with you. Christiadom has shed the blood of innocents. That is not somenthing that can be put up with. Yet-is it god's fault? why do you feel this way? Were you ever religious?
i feel sorry for you, you're believing in your faith, and not in a given fact.
Wow, I have seen some pretty amazing miracles that I don't believe "just happened" you just to have faith, if you don't have faith life will be hard to live.
What miracles have you seen? Please don't say child birth.
Dude... chill. You have a right to not believe in God, and I respect that... I'm agnostic, myself. But other people have a right to believe what they want to as well, and if those beliefs include some sort of divine being... well, what are you going to do about it? You're not going to convince anyone to change their mind with tirades like this... all that does is make people even more defensive and futher convince them that they're right.
As I said, I'm agnositc. I don't know if there's a God or not, and I perfectly happy with that. I figure you can't prove it one way or the other, so as long as none of the theists or atheists step try to persuade me that they're right and their opponent is wrong (which really annoys me), I don't see any point in arguing about it.
I am also agnostic.
Yes, there is tremendous importance in arguing about it. I will not live in a world where religion has the power over the consent of the people. Many Christians believe that a theocracy could be better than our current government. There is always reason to argue when people are willing to take away your freedom.
Mercury..that is such a good stand and way of conveying your thought. I agree that people are allowed to their own opinions. thne we wouldn't be free willed moral agents right?
I applaud you for amature point of view. So what made you be an agnostic? was it always that way?
God exists only as a state of mind for the ones that want to believe. But if at the begining god was 'created/invented' only to moderate the behaviour of societies, now he's role is quite opposite, i can see...
I don't know what I am, but I know what I don't like; people who believe that their religion is the only truth, and tell everyone else that doesn't agree will go to hell...that gets dreadfully annoying...
Now all religion has become is a political weapon that close-minded bigots use to get what they want. Now THAT is something worthy of true pity. Whatever happened to peace, brotherhood, and good will towards others?
Nowadays religion seems to be synonymous with hate, power, and greed; an excuse, nothing more.
If there is a God, then he/she is probably weeping in shame and anguish at his/her children that are destroying freedom, peace, and the sanctity of lives in his/her name; if I were a God, I know I would be.
Many christians? Have you polled them? Have you polled the people in here as to their religion? Do you know the opinions of every christian? Of every person? We all have a right and a reason for believing and not believing.
Religion helped fuel September 11th. If you are mad about that, which I hope you are because well really who isn't, your title would be "F*ck Allah." Belief doesn't mean Christianity, it means belief in something bigger than oneself. And also, I'm christian, and I do not want a theorcracy. Add my vote when you start your polling.
P.S. Hoo-rah to Animikokala. Like that comment.
Did I say I knew the opinion of every christian.
I was very careful to say that 'many', and not 'most', christians. All you have to do is research a law that is implemented with christian intentions. Of course it's my opinion that they want to go as far as to create a theocracy.
What's the difference between Allah and God. Only people who speak english call this alleged creator "God".
What does belief mean?
Don't want a theocracy, eh? Hope you're not a biblical christian.
The real purpose behind my blog was to say "Fuck Religion".
We have the ability to reason. Why do we need God?
Wow, you are ignorant. F*ck Allah? September happened because of the indoctrinated pride of America. It was the Masons way to deploy another religion based war against those who are non-conforming. I'm not upset about 9/11 and I'm an American. I'm mad about religion because it's what started this in the first place; Americans always stick there noses into places that it doesn't belong because we are "humane" and we "need to help those who can't help themselves." What a joke. The Koran teaches almost the exact same things as the Bible, however, for now, Islam is taking a little more literal; abuse of women--in Exodus. It tells you that "Jesus" is the only god and to be obdient to him. How long with it take you to kill for him?
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
-Richard Dawkins
First of all, Oedipus, I really get a kick out of the super-fast responses. Keep it up.
The thing to note (looking at your original post) is that people are using "God" (in whatever form) as an excuse for war. It isn't that this all-powerful being goes out to destroy a country; it's that people disagree (as we are) about what is morally right/wrong in terms of a god, and then act on it in not-always-so-great ways.
The Bible wasn't written by God, silly. It was written by those "inspired by God." However that's supposed to have worked.
I think you could reasonably say that God kills more people than Hitler. According to the belief in an all-powerful being, God is responsible for all deaths (taking someone to him, determining their life span, whatever). But that's not necessarily bad.
How can anyone adequately respond to a bunch of blanket assertions and hyperbole? I mean, the most you can get out of anyone is "I disagree." Furthermore, you place the burden of proof on the opposition when it actually lies with you. If you were trying to be controversial then I think you failed pretty miserably.
If I'm wrong, it would be quite easy to refute me. Thanks for your opinion (???).
Please re-read what I wrote.
If you disagree with something I hope it's because you have a logical reason. I want people to tell me what that logical reason is. Your assumption that people won't respond is an interesting opinion. I've had a lot of people respond with supposed 'evidence'. So, I don't know where you're coming from.
I don't think you really get it. I didn't say that no one would respond. I said, "How can anyone adequately respond to a bunch of blanket assertions and hyperbole?"
You're asking for logical reasoning when you yourself are illogical and unreasonable. What you say shows a marked lack of understanding of basic theological principles. Why should someone have to educate you when you have done nothing to educate yourself? Furthermore, the burden of proof is on you, which you are constantly putting back onto other people.
That's an impressive ad homineim attack. I wouldn't try to use this in an actual debate. The fact that you won't show logical reasoning because it's your opinion that I haven't done the same is quite disappointing. You should be aware that I'm not the only one reading your comments. If you don't demonstrate your reasoning, I'll know why and everybody else can probably assume why.
By the way, it's not ad hominem if their is something to back it up, she's not just saying you're stupid so don't listen to you, she is saying that what you said is unreasonable and illogical, which I'm afraid it is. Remove the hyperbole and emotionaly heavy statements from your blog, add to it some informed evidence, and maybe you will have a point.
Hyperbola.] (Rhet.)
A figure of speech in which the expression is an evident
exaggeration of the meaning intended to be conveyed, or by
which things are represented as much greater or less, better
or worse, than they really are; a statement exaggerated
fancifully, through excitement, or for effect.
[1913 Webster]
Thou art wise : -) with the tongue. Very well put
Bear in mind that I'm posting this with the expectation that you probably won't think it's logical and even if you do see some logic in it, you'll just reject it. That's because you've obviously come into this with some issues against religion.
Asking why God kills people is kind of like asking why guns kill people. No matter how good something is, it can be used to harm people. There's nothing wrong with guns, that's why we don't blame them when they are used to kill people. Why do you blame the Bible for the way people misuse it?
Secondly, just because the Bible isn't bad doesn't mean there are no bad religions. The teachings in the Koran are bad, killing infidels and all, but what does that have to do with the Bible? Being mad at God/the Bible/Christians for thing having to do with Islam is like being mad at all Americans for something one of them did.
It's in the bible that you should kill spiritists, homosexuals, and opposing believers. People aren't misusing the bible. Not all christians read from the bible, so I don't question the beliefs of all christians.
Don't follow your god and gun analogy (???). If God created us the way we are, and knows what we're going to do, then he created ted bundy despite his homicidal tendencies. The old testament and the Koran are very similar. Are you christian?
"It's in the bible that you should kill spiritists, homosexuals, and opposing believers. People aren't misusing the bible."
Where?
"If God created us the way we are, and knows what we're going to do, then he created ted bundy despite his homicidal tendencies."
Do you know anything about free will?
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)
"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:27)
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them a have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)
"He that Sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed" (Exodus 22:20)
"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant, and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; and it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him to death, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death," (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)
Ted Bundy had no reason to commit the horrible atrocities that he did. He lived a normal life and shocked relatives when they learned of what he'd done. Psychologists would agree that his brain wasn't normal. He was chemically unbalanced. Did god create him that way?
What is it about free will in which you believe I should be enlightened?
First of all ,AKBOY, you cannot truly say that the Quran is bad. Have you actually read the Quran. I am Christian, but I am quick to right injustices. The Quran has every aspect that you see in the Bible even the birth of Jesus and the pureness of his mother. The Crudades didnt make Christianity evil and the acts of a few shouldnt taint Islam. Dont be ignorant. You proved became a hypocrite when you said that Christianity is not bad because of Islam. The same respect should go to Islam and its followers when you judge it based on the actions of a few.
Think
I'm not sure why I should 'fuck God' when all the people and instances you listed are people explointing religion.
If I could stop believing in God, maybe I would. It must be a lot easier to say, 'Fuck God. WHOO!' Than to even attempt to understand who you are in comparsion to your Maker and what the ramifications of that are. Eventually you just learn that there are some guys who say God exists and they have proof. Then there are some more guys who say God doesn't exist and they have more proof. It stopped being about God a long time ago and now it's just about who is smarter.
My parents are "my maker". They didn't need god's help. Yes, I am attacking religion, not actually any god.
We are creations who have brains, we chose what we do.
Your parents created you; your parents were created by your grandparents ... on and on... Who created Adam and Eve? How does the body know to create? Where does life come from? Who created the universes (not just the Milky Way?) How do we have a system in place, from a single flower (photosynthesis, production of oxygen - which humans need, and in turn we exhale carbon dioxide, which plants need, etc.) to a solar system (gravity, light, atmosphere, water, life sustaining earth, etc.), without there being a master mind behind it all? You know, some people believe that we just did it all (I don't know how), without there being any "higher power involved", others believe in the big bang theory, etc. To all this I'm reminded of a story I read which compares the idea of saying that you could no sooner blow up a printing press and have all the pieces fall down to the ground and create a Webster's Dictionary then you could have a big bang explosion, or unorganized chaos, and create an organized world/universe. No one has all the answers, but just looking around, seeing the miracle of life, the ecosystems, the human body, on and on, shows you that there must be a plan. To have a creation, there must be a creator.
Who created the individual you're refering to?
You compare some statistics in your rant: "...the idea of saying that you could no sooner blow up a printing press and have all the pieces fall down to the ground and create a Webster's Dictionary then you could have a big bang explosion, or unorganized chaos, and create an organized world/universe."
Do you mind sharing this calculation?
A probability consists of two components: the number of times it'll occur, and also the amount of trials it'll take.
For example: a single side of a die has a 1/6 probability of landing facing up. Which means that it, on average, will come up one time every six trials.
So, how many trials have there been to create the universe as we know it?
You’re assuming that there were a number of trials to create the universe, which I am not assuming. Just as I stated in my dictionary scenario, I find it pretty improbable to create a world/universe/etc. out of chaos, rather I believe that there was a planned creation. Unfortunately, this gets into the territory which you don’t agree with, so it makes it difficult to give this point of view without having an endless argument over it. I feel, as did Einstein, that
“The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books---a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects”.
It appears that Einstein believed that things were organized: “a mysterious order”, books and different tongues, “a definite plan in the arrangement of the books”, -- on and on.
And as with Einstein, to know how it was all done, how God created it, is something paramount:
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details”.
I don't know how the earth, universe(s), etc were created so your putting me in a position to answer the question you’ve posed to me is pretty arrogant on your part since you know that I won’t be able to answer that, and therefore would appear that you’ve made a point. In reality, neither of us know exactly how these things were done -- as much as a genius/scientist/thinker Einstein was, he didn't have the answers either. But he had a belief. I don’t have all the answers, obviously, but I believe that there must be a creator to have all these creations – including man, woman, life, the universe(s) … So, answering your question regarding “who created the individuals..” , I go back to my original thought which is a higher being, a creator, a God. I believe there is a plan, a Master Plan. Whether or not we are able to understand or even grasp it does not eliminate the possibility of its existence.
You have to assume that there were a set number of trials in order to make a case for your analogy. You can't make your point about the printing press and dictionary unless you have a statistic. You have to display some sort of mathematical deduction. Or else I could say the chances of a universe, as we know it, being created from chaos, are better than the chances of rolling a 4 on a die.
I didn't ask "who created the individuals that you're refering to?", I asked "who created the individual that you're refering to?". In other words, "who created god?".
I don’t know how many worlds or universes have been created, we continue to find and learn more and more as we develop better and better equipment and increase our knowledge. (We are a small speck in this universe.) Because of this, I have no idea which world/universe/… was the beta version prototype (if any) or how to create a planet/world/universe/galaxy/etc. (Maybe I should look for the book, " 'How to Create a World, and What the Probabilities Involved Are' For Dummies") My referencing the dictionary analogy was to show how absurd I (and I’m sure there are others – one being the original writer) thought it was to assume that things just happen, that structure/harmony/organization and systems with myriad levels of complexities can just happen; that a form of serendipity, or multiple serendipities, can create complex organizations. Science - using mass levels of calculations, documentations, linear thinking, etc. - continues to study and try to grasp the vast wonders of the world we live in, the sun we orbit, the planets around us, the universe(s) we know, the things unknown. Since I believe there is a Master Creator, I also believe that there is a Master Plan, which brings me back to Einstein’s thought:
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details”.
If one were to believe that God created this world (Einstein and I), then one would also believe that it took organization and time – 7 days. Whether or not it was “technically” 7 days isn’t something I want to get caught up on. If it took “7 days” to create our entire environment (including ourselves), then it looks like it may not involve probability, but things were created on a timeframe and with some forethought. However, if probability were involved, I would have no clue knowing what that would be – just as you also would have no idea what it would be. You are a person with a finite understanding as opposed to someone who may have an infinite understanding. We have yet to figure out so much of the planet we live on, yet someone knew enough to be the Creator of it. We are limited, that does not mean that everything outside of our scope of understanding is as well. If you were to guess (calculate), you would also have a certain percentage of failure to your calculations/hypothesis. All of this is of no importance to me. Whether it took 1 time or 20 times does not interfere with the fact that you can’t create order out of chaos – there has to be a plan. (Edison failed many, many times -- but he always had a plan. He didn't create out of chaos.) Even you yourself have indirectly said the same thing since you are trying to prove that there has to be probability involved, which is expressed in a mathematical equation, or – in other words – trying to make sense mathematically …to bring order to chaos, understanding to the unknown … “You can’t make your point about the printing press and dictionary unless you have a statistic. You have to display some mathematical deduction”.
So, this is the analogy I made and continue to support.
As to who created God, you are asking a silly question. If someone else were to ask me that, we would have a conversation on our thoughts. Since this question is coming from you, where you force people to prove everything (including things we can’t prove – which does not always mean it is wrong or doesn’t exist) I find it difficult to answer since I do not have definitive proof of who created God. However, like everything else, I would think that He was also created. That question is endless, just like the things we do not know.
Funny analogy you used, since one of the quotes I'd referenced by Einstein was that "God does not play dice with the universe".
Just to let you know: there are answers in science, however, those answers are theories just like your theories, however with more logical proof. Dark matter and dark energy combustion to form something out of nothing. Take a quantum physics class and try to understand how the world was formed. It's funny that you use Einstein to try to prove a point on religion when Einstein was an Atheist:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbound admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
I don't really understand why you'd choose him to argue your point because he believes that life, at every instant you choose or decide something, that a parallel universe exists where you chose both choices; one in one life, and the other in the next; both living life at the same time; both choosing another choice and forming another life; so in theory you could already be dead in another life. He believed in strict science and now with the help of quantum physics, his ideals are becoming more than just a theory. You know Benjamin Disraeli once said "where knowledge ends, religion begins." You are one that fits that category; unbeknownst of how life started. You see, without answers people (like you) fall back on the belief that "God" is responsible for everything that we don‘t understand or can‘t understand. The elite thinkers in the world never needed a God. They lived life just as happy as everyone else. You believe in “Jesus” but do you believe in the Greek Gods?
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
-Richard Dawkins
So then I say this as just a thought: We are all born into sin and we are as GOD wants us to be so why should i have to worry about his laws at all since he decreed we are all born unto sin and he shall forgive us our sins. What does it matter what i do since adam and eve fucked me from the get go?
There are a lot of negative things to be said about organized religion. Organized religion makes God out to be this fluffy being who is suppose to make you feel good about yourself who you just pray and to and after you die you're popped right up to the pearly gates. But I think if that's your view of God, you're cheating yourself out of a profoundly deep spiritual experience. There are so many things God and I disagree on and learning to accept a higher power and been one of the hardest things I've done thus far. I suppose that learning there's a difference between truth and your opinion is a hard lesson.
And I'm basically just rambling so uh bye.
Ok, this is just crazy! Maybe God himself didn't write the Bible but the people who were there with Jesus DID. Whatever God wants to happen to people will happen. The only reason people die is because of SIN. I'm not saying I'm perfect because nobody is. The Bible say "For the wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23 If people sin, they are going to die and be separated from God. The verse goes on to say "But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." If we believe in God and that he sent his son, Jesus to die for our sins. If we do that, we are SAVED from sin and death. If you are saved and know that you have eternal life with Him, you won't be afraid of death because you know that what is to come is more wonderful than anything ob eath. Yes, God allows people to die every day. Just because there is God, it doesn't nean that the world is a perfect place.
God loves the world, that's why he sent his son to us so that we can be saved from our sins. "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son. That whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life John 3:16" It's all over the Bible. If we believe, we are saved and go to Heaven. Sin creates death but belief created life. Try picking up a Bible once in a while. It has some really good things to say. If you don't like what I have to say here, I'd like to talk to you more.
Jacquie
So god intended for innocent children to die in hurricanes, tsunamis, and such? He creates people that misbehave, and then punishes them for misbehaving. The actions of a human being aren't random (even if you don't think that god created us). We can analyze the psyche of murderers and non-murderers and see great difference in their brain chemistry. Since we can't shape our personality, then whose fault is it if we tend to resort to violence?
There is sin in the world because of the original sin and because of the devil. God did not intend for innocent people to die. My cousin was killed in a car accident, no one was drunk, no one was speeding, it was her sixteenth birthday. I struggled with her death for a long time. My cousin was an amazing person, he wasn't punishing her or other people for misbehaving. All of her organs were donated, she was a healthy sixteen year old, she saved four people's lives. Her brother went through a very very bad period, but now, he is an amazing person and he had to struggle to get where he is. I questioned my faith numerous times because of her death, but God always brought me back. And my poor aunt, her faith has grown in leaps and bounds. My cousin's death which still makes me cry and remember things I don't want to remember, did amazing things for a great deal of people. She helped so many people through her death. If God did not exist, I know her brother would have killed himself a long time ago, probably her mother as well, and my suicide thoughts probably wouldn't have been just thoughts. Although sin is in the world, God saves us from it when we need it most.
I hate to refute this argument because of your emotion attachment, but you can't only use pathos to convince me. There was no evidence that 'god' helped you during this time. In fact, the very idea of this god's existence was responsible for saving your suicidal cousin supports the idea that we could've created god as a way to survive. We need hope and purpose. God fulfills both of these. I thought god gave us freewill? If God has control over our lives, isn't he responsible for the reign of murderous dictators? Does god allow infant's to die? There deaths aren't beneficial in any way. Why does god allow mentally retarded children burden a mother? Why do we need so many fatal diseases? Why did god create adam and eve, knowing that they would deceive him?
you do know that jesus turned water into wine? David copperfield fucken float and makes buildings disappear. Who has the better "MIRACLES"?
If there is anything you don’t find or see within, just let someone know, I personally wish you a very pleasant stay amongst.
Do enjoy yourself upon this wonderful while close to miraculous platform in which minds mould together into an almost perfect and tasteful environment.
Feel free and welcome to roam around in order to get even more acquainted with whatever you might have overseen on entry.
Welcome,
http://www.wowzone.com/monkey.htm
You can curse him with that word and he'll forgive you if you ask for forgiveness?
But there's a worser word that he won't forgive you with (the highest curse), and you won't enter heaven at all.
okay???
Wow I'm a christian and I don't even know what blackista is talking about. If he is refering to you using God's name in vain, and he thinks you can't be forgiven for that, then he has a bad interpretation of grace. God doesn't just forgive some sin, and no sin is worse than any other, he forgives all sin.
Oedipus, I know you don't belive in God, and I am sorry for that, I wish I could change your mind, but that is not my job. Faith cannot be understood unless you have lived it, and I agree it sounds kinda crazy, almost illogical, but I feel it every day. When I am depressed and in tears, worried or anxious, in a state of mind that sees no light at the end of the tunnel, how do I explain the feeling of peace that comes when I call out to my Lord. How do I explain the warmth that sweeps through my body. You could say that it is just from a sudden burst of endorphins that change my feelings, or that I am convincing myself that I feel God's presence, but that is because you have never experienced it, and I am sorry for that.
I know you don't care about God, and think all religion is evil. But I look at my life, and how my Dad is no longer an alcoholic because one night after 15 years of being a drug addict and alcoholic, doin every drug except heroin, he prayed the lords prayer and from that moment on never touched a single beer or picked up another needle. I am a logical person by nature, the idea of faith doesn't make any logical sense to me, but I feel it every day, and know that God is there.
Don't think that I am going to judge you for not believing in God or disagreeing with my beliefs. Judgement is not my job, that's up to God. I love you despite not knowing you, and that, not death and war and killing in God's name, is the main idea of my faith.
Christianity is love, grace, and healing for us messed up humans who fall short of the glory of God and despite not deserving any forgiveness, can recieve unending grace by just asking. You can go on living the way you want to, and I will never directly be affected, but I pray, yes I do pray because God is a living, leading, loving lord, that you can at least consider the possibility that we are not alone, that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, that we are children of God.
Nietchze would be proud of you. You are only one step from following the Nietchzean path. All you have to do is proclaim that you killed God, then you can start down the path to become the ubermensche (sp).
You say there is no evidence of him saving anyones life, but you blame him for all deaths. There's no evidence he is responsible for all those deaths you seem to pin on him.
But let's go with that, he is responsible for all deaths thing. if he brought the earth into creation, he is responsible for all life as well. That means that he breaks even.
Besides, he said he was going to bring everyone back to life anyway, so what is the big deal?
Interestingly enough, I just bought Nietzche's "The Antichrist".
To some I might be sounding like a broken record when I say that I am attacking the beliefs of organized religions. He's all powerful isn't he? He created everyone and knows what they'll do, doesn't he? He created murderers, he created tsunamis, he created tornados; Only, of course, if you agree that he is all-powerful. Is an existence in which you live a life of being tortured non-stop worth living? Does he have to break even, Or is he cruel?
I must of missed it when he said that he was going to bring everyone back to life. Did anyone else catch that?
I Thess. 4:16 I believe says the dead in Christ will be raised. They will be given new, perfect bodies. That's where it says God will bring believers back to life, as for the rest of humanity, Rev. 20 says they will be raised and judged according to their deeds. That doesn't mean someone can be good enough to work their way to heaven, its just that Hitler and the like will be punished worse than others. So, yes, the Bible clearly says every single human will be brought back to life.
Oh, well then... if its in the bible it has to be fact.
I understand that you are attacking organized religion, but it seems that God is also getting indirectly attcked because of it. I'm off the topic you intended, but i htink everyone is. All I wish to do is answer some of the questions you brought up here.
"He's all powerful isn't he" Omnipotent is the word people like to use here, unfortunately that's not biblical. But is God all powerful? It comes down to a game of menaings at this point. What do you mean by all powerful, because reductum ad absurdum it doesn't make sense. There is the age old question of can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it? I think we may consider that God is powerful in that he is able to do all that is possible. This leads to your next question.
"He created everyone and knows what they'll do, doesn't he?" Well I believe many Christians would disagree here, at least many that are educated. There is something called Open Theism that is quite popular today and can be traced back to the original church fathers. It is the idea that God may not know everything man is going to do. Each man is created with free will. Does man truly have free will if God knows his future? I think not. Also is it possible to know events that have not taken place? If God knows what things we are going to do in the future, do we have any possibility of not doing those things? Doesn't seem like it. So either man does not have free will, or God does not know complete future events.
That also relates to your next question. God created the universe, whether creation or evolution it doens't really matter (see some other posts i have made). The universe we live in has been set with natural laws, such as gravity and so forth. We live in this world and are affected by natural laws. Natural laws that cause earth quakes and tsunamis. Now for God to interact at every point in time wouldn't seem feesible. He set the earth in motion and has given us free will. We are left to make decisions based on what happens to us and others. Many don't like this though, because now we have a responsibility and people don't like responsibility. So God can be "all powerful" and allow for horrible things to happen. Does this mean he is not loving though? i think not. He is saddened more than we can ever be over such things and loves everyone who is affected. Is he not loving for letting bad things happen to people. It may seems so, but I think not. It would take a while longer to fully explain this, but i hope that you can see where i am going.
Finally God does not have "to break even." That is a bunch of bs! That's my little rant.
Without being argumentative or revealing my personal viewpoint, I am honestly curious - was there something that happened that brought this on or have you always felt this way?
~Marie
First of all, both of my parents, event though not very involved, can be considered christian.
After studying psychology, history, philosophy and other such related topics, it seems to me that "god" can quite easily be a figment of our imagination. He gives us hope, and a sense of security. He creates universal law and explains the impossible. He answers all our unanswerable questions.
It would appear to me, Odepius that you do believe in a god, if you are attacking that god and saying that "he causes deaths". Only, it would appear that you are attacking the Christian diety because you....well, I'm not sure why you're doing it. But there has to be another reason behind it, other than the one that you are giving. Honestly, you're rebutting your own argument. You say that "he doesn't exist" but then you turn around and say that the diety is responsible for tons of deaths. You contradict yourself. Dissatisfaction with life mayhaps? But this sort of post makes hate spread, don't you know? Surely your "reasoning ability" tells you this.
My reasoning ability, however, tells me that all religions are equally valid and true, and that through tolerance, our "reasoning powers" can grow. I think you are limiting your scope of organized religion to just christianity. There are others, and not all of them have only one god.
Oedipus: "We don't have modern evidence that is definitive proof of a god's existence (not that we have any definitive proof to begin with)."
Why should God have to reveal himself to us every hundred years or so just because some people whine about him and doubt his existance? The Bible calls for faith, what would be the point of faith if God came down and screamed "I'm real" every time we asked?
Secondly, we did have proof to begin with. There is a story of the prophet Elijah in the OT. People wanted to know who was the better god, Baal and other idols or the God of Abraham, Issac and Moses. Two alters were set up with a bull and the prophets of Baal tried to get the gods to burn it up. They tried all day and nothing happened. Elijah soaked his wood and bull with water. He prayed once and fire came down and burn his whole alter up, water and all. This was one of many proofs God gave that He is real and the greatest.
Does god have to leave me in the dark? Can't he give us recordable evidence that he undoubtably exists?
Oh, well... if it's in the bible it has to be true then, right?
He does Give us proof Its called taxes, What a dick! LOL
You've shared your opinions negatively of others (theist) beliefs (views). Can you post a blog sharing positively your beliefs (views)?
Thank you
It is my belief that we don't know enough about our existence to justify any of our actions. The only thing I know is that I don't want to die. And if I don't want to die and I'm sure you probably don't want to die, then why don't we just not kill each other? My point is that we don't need to believe in a higher power to remain civilized. I believe we can use reason to live a tolerable life. Now I don't know whether god exists or not. To tell you the truth, I really don't care. If god does exist and has abandoned me, I really don't find it logical that he'll torture my soul for eternity because I didn't worship Him/Her, especially when god sends us ancient texts in which we have to choose from. Hinduism has been around longer than the scriptures from the old testament. If any scriptures can explain the nature of existence, it's probably one of the oldest ones. What is the most ironic occurance is how a pope can gain more power than a king. So for all you Christians, Jews, Muslims, or whatever, keep believing if you will, keep on converting, keep on putting money in the collection basket, keep on convincing yourself that god loves you, just don't take away my freedom.
I love people like you, Oedipus. You're entitled to your opinions and beliefs as I am to mine. Yet the arguments you make against the Bible remind me of the illogical arguments made using the Bible against gay marriage and homosexuals in general. Do not forget that the Bible also says you should sell your daughters as slaves. The Bible is a book of stories, beginning with the first word of Genesis. It's mythology: a way to explain what could not be explained when it was written. I am Catholic and I recognize that the Bible is not meant to be the ultimate truth in any situation.
I find it interesting that you keep asking for proof. Have you ever seen a thought? Do you know it exists? Apply your reasoning to any other generally accepted abstract concept and you'll find yourself in the same position you have put us "believers" in. Faith is faith, and that's that.
One final thing. No one can claim to know what God wants or what God does. God has not killed anyone (in recent times, anyway). It is those claiming to act in his name that kill people. Because of this, I'm finding myself getting awfully sick of organized religion myself, though I still believe He exists.
You don't believe that part of the book of knowledge, the that you use to worship, that you need in order to gain access to heaven, isn't 100% accurate? Why do you determine your lifestyle with a book that you admitted might have imperfections? How can you trust anything in the book to be true then?
Prove that a thought exists? Hmmmm....
"Thought" is a word we apply to an impossible idea to grasp. I could be a thought that I'm thinking or it could be a figment of some other reality. We'll never be able to tell, will we? Just how we'll never be able to tell whether god exists or not. Why do we die for a thing that we don't even understand?
Why do you believe he is more masculine than feminine? Because that's what your imperfect book told you?
Oedipus: "Can't he give us recordable evidence that he undoubtably exists?"
What kind of recordable evidence? How about a miraculous event that could only be from God, that he then appoints someone to keep written documentation of. Would that be enough? He did that many times in the Bible. You want video? Even if God came down and held a press conference, there would be thousands of skeptics with countless therories on how it was faked.
God doesn't want us to simply to believe in Him. Even the demons believe in his existance and shudder, He wants more from us. He made Adam to have a relationship with him, and He wants the same for us. He wants us to seek Him out in faith. He doesn't want to come down every hundred years or so to convince us yet again that He exists.
Oedipus: "If god does exist and has abandoned me, I really don't find it logical that he'll torture my soul for eternity because I didn't worship Him/Her, especially when god sends us ancient texts in which we have to choose from."
How did He abandon you? You've obviously heard the gospel message: Trust Christ with your life and salvation because you have no way to earn it. Every time you hear that, God is reaching out to you. He did not abondon you, you're just rejecting Him. There you have it, He's offered you a way to have your sins paid for and you've rejected it for whatever reason. Why is illogical that you pay for your sins when you've rejected His payment for them?
In answer to you masculine God question, God has no gender. He is not a he or a she, but He is also a personal entity, so we can't call Him an "it". As for why we tend to lean toward "He", God takes many masculine roles in scripture. The church is His bride and He is a groom, He is a father figure to us, and there are more.
The Jesus Papers. Did jesus exist yes, but he was also privy to "signs" that led people to believe he was the messiah. Did you know ceasar augusta also filled the prophicies as did alexander? but none of them were gods son why? They were catholic! bu bu bu bum!
Oh, yes... it's all because they were Catholic, especially seeing as how both of them lived before Christianity (and thus Catholicism) was created. Alexander the Great lived a few hundred years before Jesus (whoever he may be) was even born. He's also notorious for linking the native gods of the regions he conquered to the gods he himself worshiped, and as such, did not alienate his conquered peoples.
Caesar Augustus (yes, spelling it right is beneficial) lived much closer to the life of Jesus, but still died before Jesus was supposedly crucified. And, you know, he was also pagan :)
~C
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