Why Evolution Beats Creationism in the Classroom, Every Time

evolutiongeek's picture
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Anytime I see anything related to evolution on this website, naturally I am compelled to take a look. This isn't because I can't wait to smack down people whose opinions differ from my own on the subject, but I'm always interested to see what people have to say about the issue and see what arguments are being used. Strangely enough, I see people on both sides parroting old arguments or the standard anti-evolution dogma from the likes of Answers in Genesis books and Icons of Evolution by Johnathan Wells. There are even ministry camps dedicated to teaching children how to confront their biology teachers on the issue. So, rather than posting the same comments over and over again I thought I would give a basic run-down of why it isn't appropriate to teach intelligent design or creationism in science class, and why the "teach the controversy" idea ultimately fails.

"Theory" is a word that gets thrown around casually these days. It seems any idea, regardless of how reasonable or crackpot it may be gets branded with the term, and this has led to a lot of confusion on the issue, especially dealing with evolution. Creationists love to say "Evolution is a THEORY," but do they even know what they're referring to? What Charles Darwin wrote about in The Origin of Species was the theory of evolution by natural selection. What this means is that evolution itself is not the theory; it is what was observed. The theory aspect is natural selection, or competition inside and between species for resources that spurred on the changes we do see. Furthermore, anyone familiar with the scientific method (which it appears is taught to just about anyone who has taken a science course, ever), will know that an unproven idea is a hypothesis, which undergoes testing for verificaiton. Even when the results are in, it doesn't mean a new theory is created. No, a theory is tested, restested, verfied, modified, or even thrown out as we gather more facts and information. Indeed, evolution is a fact made up of many theories like natural selection, sexual selection, the Red Queen, allopatric speciation, etc. Furthermore, various branches of science agree that evolution has occurred, be it in paleontology, molecular biology, genetics, functional morphology, etc. If it was just paleontologists claiming evolution occurred but geneticists had evidence that it did not, then we'd have a problem, but they agree and support each other that evolution has occurred.

For a moment I will stand on the shoulders of a giant in the field, Stephen Jay Gould, and share what he had to say about the subject in his essay "Evolution as Fact and Theory" from his long running series in Nautral History magazine. He had this to say:

"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."

I have often thought about it myself, wondering if a student came into a physics classroom claiming that it was not gravity, but in fact God's love that held us all down on the earth. I doubt there would be as big a controversy as there is over evolution, nor would there be angry parents demanding that physics teachers "Teach the Controversy" about gravity. Indeed it seems that creationsists and ID advocates pay no attention to the rest of science at all, only to evolution. Why is this? Why isn't Johnathan Wells writing "Icons of Chemistry?" It seems to me that the rest of science doesn't matter to these groups because they don't deal with man's origins. We humans are an egotistical race, believing we are above all other creatures by own power to reason or divine right. Would creationists be trying to pick apart fossil whale lineages or Tiktaalik if it was scientifically proven that humans were created by God? Of course not, there would be no controversy then. The logic is, however, if these people can blow holes in other parts of evolutionary history, then doubt can be cast on our own origins, which is the ultimate goal. "Of course we can't be related to such brutish and slovenly creatures as the great apes, right?" Well, while this Victorian or Medeival mindset may appeal to some, but I find it has little to no basis in reality.

What most people do not realize is that creationism and intelligent design are NOT about good science: they're all about morality. Groups like Answers in Genesis are honest about their intentions, that is that they see evolution as a threat to morality because it contradicts their narrow interpretation of the Bible, and therefore must be destroyed. They employ some scientific thinkers to attempt to refute scientific data new and old, but it all just comes off as a hustle because AiG doesn't care about good science, only about saving your soul. In fact during a conversation with a creationist speaker, he confided in me that the main reason he was in the biz was not to be a good scientist or teach churches about scientific finds, but rather to save peoples souls as he sees evolution as a threat to all humanity. Intelligent design doesn't fare much better, especially when the "Wedge Document" came to light in the 1990's. What the document essentially said was that the Discovery Institute (a Seattle-based think tank) had plans to push ID to become the primary theory about origins and taught in most schools in a short period of time. Their reasoning was that evolution (or Darwinism as they like to call it, an thin-veiled attempt to polarize people) is materialistic and contributing to the moral decline of the country. Therefore it must be replaced with a system that makes people feel valued and loved by some unnamed designer, for then everything will be O.K. and things will correct themselves, right? I don't think so.

I wrote an earlier post all about why intelligent design is not science, but I'll do the short recap here. Other than being a child of moral superiority more than science, it is ridiculous on both scientific and theological grounds. The theology of ID is this- There is a designer, but we don't know who it is. It could be God, it could be aliens, it could be your mother, we have no clue and there's no way to test it. Imagine if an atheist all of a sudden believed in a designer, that just leaves them in a worse place than when they started. Who is the designer? What is their relationship with me? Are they active in the world? Etc. In fact I have yet to hear from anyone who was an atheist or agnostic and changed their mind because of ID. ID appeals primarily to Christians and people of other religions who don't want to take Genesis (or any other creation story) as historical fact but don't want to give up their religion either, so it's easy to plug in to any already-existing belief system. Furthermore, if ID really is science, whomever this designer is should be availible for testing. Simply saying "Well, we'll never know" or "They're outside of space and time" is not an answer and not scientific. If there is indeed a designer we should be able to test and verify who they are, what their physical (or non-physical) characteristics are, what their relationship is with us, how long they've been around, etc. ID makes no claim because it does not want to ally itself with creationists, but that's all it really is:creationism in sheep's clothing.

It's also amazing that many of ID's claims have already been described by evolutionary scientists long before they ever showed up on the ID agenda. The idea of irreducible complexity is not new to Michael Behe. Although the "Watchmaker Argument" could be traced back to William Paley, the idea as far as biological systems (and not just philosophical drek) was proposed by Hermann Muller in the early 20th century, essentially saying it should be expected that evolution would produce complex systems over time. Theories of scaffolding and exaptation (using old structures for new purposes) feed into this, and over time it should be expected that structures like the much-maligned bacterial flagellum should become complex and lose or change parts during the process. In fact all of the claims Behe comes up with in his book Darwin's Black Box involving IC structures have been refuted by scientists. Johnathan Wells is another DI offender, his most famous book being Icons of Evolution (he's only just come out with another and these 2 popular polemics are his only contributions to the debate). Over and over again Wells assigns archaic ideas to todays scientists, claiming that science is stuck in the 1800's. The book is essentially a string of lies, and many scientists have updated or thrown out the icons Wells so proudly displays. For instance, wells takes issue with the famous painting of man's suppossed evolution, starting with a monkey and going all the way up to Homo sapiens. Now the copy on my desk says Icons was printed in the year 2000, but over a decade earlier (1989) Stephen Jay Gould prominently displayed the fallacious painting (and many of its interpretations in pop culture) in his book Wonderful Life about the Cambrian Explosion. Now Wells writes about the Cambrian explosion in his book, and Gould's work is regarded as one of the most important on the Burgess Shale, so either Wells read it and overlooked Gould's treatment of the laughable sequence or Wells did no real research on the Cambrian Explosion at all and merely asserted his opinion. I don't know which is worse.

So what does all this have to do with schools? Well, if creationism and ID had any science to them, I'd say "Fine, teach them in science classrooms," but the fact is, they do not. They are moral arguments that think believing that we are related to animal forebears and not specially created from dust (or a rib) will lead the world into the moral sewer. Condescending paternalism is all it is, yuck. Millions (even billions) of dollars have been spent in creation ministries, yet they have no real scientific data to support their claims. Do they attempt to do scientific work? Surely, but everything first goes through the lens of "God created in 6 days" and so anything that doesn't fit that assumption is thrown out or not researched at all.  Over $4 million has been spent by the Discovery Institute but they have yet to come up with anything other than a few popular books. In fact, it seems creationists and ID advocates put more effort into popular work than real research because they know the public will eat it up, and the public will in turn influence politicians, and then someday they may get their way. It's a lot easier to indoctrinate people in rubbish than do any real work yourself. When asked where their research is, many of theses pseudo-scientists cry conspiracy, and they cannot and will not tell any of us evilutionists about it because we'd run them out of town on a pole. This is just a "Don't look behind the curtain" argument, because in this case we know that the all-powerful creationists are just little men pushing buttons.

I actually have no problem with creationism and ID being taught in a philosophy or theology class. In fact I think American schools should have courses on religion and approach it in much the same way European History is approached. Hell, half of my Western Civ. classes are about religious influences and changes, so why not discuss religion? So many people take issue with Muslims or people of other faith without knowing the slightest bit about other faiths, so why not teach about the history, roots, and implications of religion in classrooms to help increase tolerance and understanding? Science class, however, has no room for moral superiority or claims that can't be backed up. If creationism or ID have anything to them, through the scientific method we should be able to identify, verify, and test who the creator is. But this won't happen, because ID and creationism advocates say we either can't test for God or that God is outside of space and time, which are really just convenient ways to say "Accept my morals into the classroom, but don't ask for any real substance, please." Hell, I've looked over some proposed lesson plans and creationism and ID don't even figure prominently in them. All they seem to have is a sticker or disclaimer saying evolution is somehow intellectually in trouble, but with no other reason why. I would love to see someone come up with a real parallel evolution/ID (or creationism) curriculum for students. To tell you the truth I don't think we've seen one because the advocates of ID and creationism know they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to science, and it's all just moral posturing.

If there were anything real about their claims, they would put their money where their mouth is and do the work. Darwin agonized most of his life trying to figure out the mechanism by which life could change, and put a lot of work and thought into finding out the facts. At the time he left on the Beagle, he actually was a creationist himself, but he was more concerned with looking at life as it was, not as he wished it to be. In fact I sometimes wonder if the creationists of his day had not been so forceful in their interpretation of the Bible, or had not essentially created a vengeful God who would punish loved ones if they did not believe (Darwin couldn't accept his brother or father were in hell just because they didn't believe), would Darwin have turned away from his faith? I don't know the answer to that, but I think an environment is being created in today's society that wishes to impose one definition of morality upon the masses, making me constantly more wary of the "people of one book."

Do scientists assume evolution? Of course, we know it happens. As I alluded ealier, asking scientists not to assume the fact of evolution would be like telling physicists they couldn't assume gravity exists either. This is not the province of truth, but of reality and what can be observed. What's the difference between this and assuming God did it all? Other than morality, those who claim God did it in 6 days believe they have unchanging, absolute truth. Those that believe there is some unnamed creator also aspire to have some untestable absolute truth, and neither is science: it's faith. There's no test to see how accurate someone's faith in anything is because we don't know the reality of the supernatural, and if the creationist/ID crowd really wanted to make a splash they'd worry more about scientifically directly proving such a creator exists rather than through Scripture-fueld inference. Science will continue to change and progress, but there will always be those who think they have a corner on the absolute-truth market, and that's actually anti-science. At this point I feel it would be disingenuous of me if I didn't admit something. I am a Christian. I believe in God and believe He is behind life in our universe, although in what exactly way I am not sure. This is my belief, and I keep it as such- I would not propose for a moment to call that science or present it in a scientific paper. What I want to fight for is the freedom to think and strive for the facts, and I will leave truth to the philosophers and theologians. I am fed up with people saying "This is science" when it is merely an appeal to "reclaim the country for Christ" or some other such nonsense. If anything faith is invitational, not something to be proved beyond the shadow of doubt and forced upon people in a theocracy. People need to educate themselves more about this issue and others that involve faith and make up their own minds. Step outside environments condusive to group-think and think that God must be defended by the evangelical right. I'd say if you want to make your faith grow (or figure it out), don't read a book like Lee Strobel's A Case for Christ, but instead read something by Richard Dawkins or an atheist or secular author and then explain why they're right or wrong. It's so easy to slip into the Christian bubble and listen to only Christian music, read books by only Christian authors, talk to only other Christians, etc. Why not challenge your beliefs a bit? There are at least two sides to every argument and only making yourself familiar with the side you agree with at the time does no good other than to foster your own comfort.

Anyway, I've digressed far enough. The facts are the creationism and intelligent design are merely moral arguments concerned with preserving Scripture and/or morality. There's no science there, just interpretations of morality they'd like to impose. Evolution is a fact made up of many theories that best explains how we got here today, leaving everyone to make up their own mind about faith. Evolutionary theories do not seek to destory anything, but rather explain this wonderful diversity we see on our planet and how we are irrevocably connected to it. Evolution does not demand we shed our faith or morality, in fact it seems that creationists are more concerned with imposing one set of values over others than anyone else. For my own part I will continue to attempt to speak for responsible science and responsible faith, two aspects of myself that influence each other but need not destroy one another either. In any case, I am proud that I can look at a lungfish, a gorilla, a starfish, a shrew, and any other creature on this planet and see the connections that are there. That instills more compassion and fulfillment in my soul than anything else. 

everProgressive's picture

It is my personal belief that people should first educate themselves on things they believe in before they venture into other areas. Too many Christians don't even know what Christianity is, just like too many evolutionists don't even know what evolution is.

When in doubt, I say just shut up.

"You are narrow-minded because you disagree with me."

evolutiongeek's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I agree with you. In just about any area, people need not only to be familiar with what supports your own ideas, but the arguments against them. Otherwise what are you doing other than parroting the beliefs of other people?

I also find it interesting how everyone says they're right, and how so many people are afraid to say "I don't know." It's seen as some kind of weakness to be honest when you don't have all the answers, and I think this is a weakness on both sides of the argument. Hopefully everyone can strive towards more honesty, but I'm not holding my breath.

How can you say that ID/creationism is only about imposing beliefs on people whan thats what evolution is too? Both Evolution and ID/creationsim are two different beliefs systems. Both are based on faith. We can postulate what happened 5 billion years ago and we can postulate what happened 5 thousand years ago. I would be more inclined to think our theories about what happened 5 thou. years ago would be more accurate than our theories about 5 bil. years ago.

Really I think the whole argument is pointless because we each have our own worldview and we look at any argument through our own point of view. I have read a lot quite a bit about various controversys, and I find that each person is fully convinced in their own mind about their argument. Usually, though many won't admit it, they will not even consider the opposing view. Anyone who says they are "neutral" or "un-baised" are lying through their teeth since everyone has an opinion and a background in everything (back to everyone's worldview).

You say you are a Christian? How can you say that if you do not care about "reclaiming the world for Christ" as you put it. If you are a Christian than you know that all truth and wisdom comes from God, so how can man think to find truth apart from him?

Really the whole argument is about who is god. Oh of course evolutionists and athiest won't admit that, but thats what it is about. Atheism is a religion where you are your own god. Evolution is a religion where you are your own god. Islam is a religion where Allah is God. Christianity is a religion where Christ is God. So the question is who is god? You, or someone else?

My God is Jesus Christ our lord. He is my rock and my salvation. I can do all things through him. I am ready to die tomorrow or live for a thousand years. I am ready do endure anything for my Lord, because he endured everything for me. This is no mushy love relationship, but that of a master and a servant, of a shephard and a sheep. Through him, I can admit I am a weak, sinful human and can depend totally on him for my every need, which he provides every day.
You think I'm a fool? Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion. But consider this
If I am right, I die and will live in heaven for eternity. I win.
If I am wrong, I live a good and peaceful life, serving others and trying to better this world, I die and turn to dust and will have lived a good life. I still win.
either way I win.

so, who is your god?

evolutiongeek's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I appreciate your candor and your time in response. Even so, I think you missed the point of my argument, and your act of "calling me out" as to who or what I believe in is misguided. Like I do for other posts of length, I'll dissect it section by section. I appreciate the time you put into this, but I find the ending of your comment inappropriately antagonistic. And away we go...

"How can you say that ID/creationism is only about imposing beliefs on people whan thats what evolution is too? Both Evolution and ID/creationsim are two different beliefs systems. Both are based on faith."

I went over this in the post, and it is logically incorrect. Evolution is not a belief in the same way that religion is. I often hear this argument, but as the Gould quote notes and as I mention toward the end, evolution is both fact and theory. We know it happens, we're trying to explain how. Saying it doesn't exist would be like denying gravity. Evolution is based on observations, tests, verifications, etc. Faith, on the other hand is something personal and could have any number of roots depending on each person, but what it boils down to is this- evolution is science, creationism is faith.

"We can postulate what happened 5 billion years ago and we can postulate what happened 5 thousand years ago. I would be more inclined to think our theories about what happened 5 thou. years ago would be more accurate than our theories about 5 bil. years ago."

Ok, well since you put me up to the challenge, I will put you up to the challenge as well. What happened 5,000 years ago? A timeline would be appreciated, and I would also like to hear your explanation of what the Chinese, Native Americans, Mya, Inca, and other civilizations were doing during this time since we have materials from many of these other cultures. Your argument here is a straw-man, essentially saying the closer something is to today, the more we must understand about it. Just because something happened long ago does not mean we can know nothing about it. For example, I assume you drive a car. If a geologist believed the world was 5,000 years old he would never be hired by an oil company to scout for new resources because oil deposits are over 5,000 years old. The geology, chemistry, and physics all help to confirm the biology, and I have seen no proof to support to idea the world is 5,000 years old.

"Really I think the whole argument is pointless because we each have our own worldview and we look at any argument through our own point of view."

I agree that I would love for this argument to go away, but I don't doubt that it's pointless. If someone is saying something wrong (i.e. the world is 5,000 years old) I'm not going to just sit there and say "Ok, well, that's your worldview and I accept that."

"I have read a lot quite a bit about various controversys, and I find that each person is fully convinced in their own mind about their argument. Usually, though many won't admit it, they will not even consider the opposing view. Anyone who says they are "neutral" or "un-baised" are lying through their teeth since everyone has an opinion and a background in everything (back to everyone's worldview)."

It's true that everyone has their own biases, and I have mine. I would never say for a second that my view is perfect and unbiased. However, I feel that not many people have become knowledgable about other sides to the arguments they propose. As for this argument, I spend nearly as much time reading creationist and ID literature as I do scientific literature so that I am constantly challenging my own biases and have to come up with answers to the problems. Have you read Gould, Wilson, Eldredge, Darwin, Mayer, etc? I think you should, because even if you don't agree, at least you'll be strengthening your argument. My problem is when people are out to prove absolute truth, when no one can really be 100% sure what absolute truth it. That is the province of God, not men, and it's funny how "absolute truth" is different depending on who you talk to.

"You say you are a Christian?"

Surely am. I've been one for about 2 and 1/2 years now after a long stint as an agnostic.

"How can you say that if you do not care about "reclaiming the world for Christ" as you put it."

I have to double check, but I think I said reclaim America for Christ. I think this is ridiculous because America was not founded by God, and in fact this country was based upon religious freedom. The founding fathers weren't Christians as many evangelicals like to believe, at best they were deists. Jefferson went so far as to cut out the bits of the New Testament he didn't like, which largely consisted of Christ talking of his own divinity. Many saw Christianity as no different from the religions of the Greeks and Romans, and although our laws may be similar to Judeo-Christian precepts, morality is not solely the province of the faithful, and America was not founded a Christian nation. I am also not concerned with "reclaiming the world for Christ" because faith is invitational. I will do what I feel is right through God and I will speak openly and honestly about my feelings about my own faith. Free will was a wonderful gift God gave to us all to choose our own faith and matters in our lives, and I would rather lead through my deeds than try to convert people just to save their souls. God is in control, and it's not my job to make everyone a believer... they need to make up their own minds.

"If you are a Christian than you know that all truth and wisdom comes from God, so how can man think to find truth apart from him?"

I never said anyone was finding truth apart from God. Could it indeed be possible that God gives wisdom to people who aren't Christians? I believe it is most certainly so. And, by the same doctrine, man if fallible so whose to say your interpretation of God is the correct one? Who can fully know the mind of God? I know I can't, and I'm not afraid to say I don't have all the answers.

"Really the whole argument is about who is god."

No, it really isn't. It's about Christians feeling threatened by a fact and set of scientific theories and trying to retrofit the Bible to be a science textbook. Like I wrote, evolution (and science in general) does not suppose to put any moral constraints on anyone, nor say who God is. Evolution does not demand a rejection of God, if it did, how else could I still believe? The statement you made is precisely what I'm talking about when I say that people are misconstruing the issue.

"Oh of course evolutionists and athiest won't admit that, but thats what it is about. Atheism is a religion where you are your own god."

I like how you mentioned "evolutionists" here like it's a religion- it most certainly is not. There are plenty of other belivers who are proponents of evolution, Ken Miller (author of Finding Darwin's God) and Joan Roughgarden among them. You also have misconstrued atheism here as well. Atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief in yourself as your own god. You may want to discuss that assertion with some actual atheists and see what they have to say about their own faith instead of making assumptions.

"Evolution is a religion where you are your own god."

For the umpteenth time, evolution is not a religion, although Christian organizations love to try and make it out as one. Evolution is a fact, it is a theory, and it is science. I have not yet met any evolutionary scientist that suggests we should derive a set of morals from evolution, nor do we all get together for special readings of "On the Origin of Species" or anything of that nature. Evolution simply means that ever since life has existed, it has changed- that's all. You are quite simply wrong in your statement here, and that's not just a matter of my own opinion.

"Islam is a religion where Allah is God. Christianity is a religion where Christ is God. So the question is who is god? You, or someone else?"

I know I'm not God, if I was it would be quite disconcerting, especially since apparently I would have lost all that omniscience and such. Perhaps what you mean is that everyone must ask the question "who is god?" at some point. I think this is oversimplification, and it's not like sports signups where we just pick. There are plenty of people whose god is determined by where they grow up or how they are raised. There are people who convert, there are people who never believe- we all deal with the question on our own terms, and I think a lot of times even people who think they know who their God is instead make God out to be the way they want. I think many people in many religions are guilty of this, essentially trying to make God into a champion for their own causes instead of trying to understand the true identity and nature of who they believe in.

"My God is Jesus Christ our lord. He is my rock and my salvation. I can do all things through him. I am ready to die tomorrow or live for a thousand years. I am ready do endure anything for my Lord, because he endured everything for me. This is no mushy love relationship, but that of a master and a servant, of a shephard and a sheep. Through him, I can admit I am a weak, sinful human and can depend totally on him for my every need, which he provides every day."

A fine standard profession of faith, and I am glad that we in fact share the same one. I still wonder how do you feel about your relationship God in your own words? I see many, many people profess their faith this way, and I'm not saying you don't believe, but it's all cliches and statements ripped from places in the Bible. It would be more powerful to use your own words and say what your life is life with God on a daily basis rather than try to impress people with a list of commonly-uttered sayings about faith.

"You think I'm a fool?"

I don't even know you, how can I think you are a fool? I think you are mistaken in some of your assertions, but I do not think you are a fool. You believe deeply in God and if you are on this website (I would hope at least) then you are striving for a better future for all people. Just because your faith and scientific facts don't agree does not mean I think of you as a fool. Please do not put words in my mouth.

"Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion. But consider this If I am right, I die and will live in heaven for eternity. I win."

I didn't know this was a contest, and if you're right about Christ being Lord then I'm right too and I'll be there with you. There's no need to make this into a competition.

"If I am wrong, I live a good and peaceful life, serving others and trying to better this world, I die and turn to dust and will have lived a good life. I still win."

And so do many atheists and people of other faith. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you're better than everyone else, or that there is no morality outside a belief in God. There are plenty of wonderful people who, by your standards, wouldn't be going to heaven (or possibly even end up in hell), but does that mean they didn't leave a good life? Please do not think for a second that being a Christian automatically makes you moral and upright- everyone is fallible (some moreso than others) and while your faith may support your morality, it is not the only road to it.

"either way I win."

Once again, I was not aware this was somehow a competition of you against me for whose soul ends up in a better place. Why do you act this way? I am a Christian, I believe in God, but I'm not going to shut my brain off and believe just because other people tell me to (nor am I suggesting you do). There are a lot of things I don't know and never will know- I'm not God. Even so I do have faith in God and I believe there is truth in the Bible, regardless of whether you read the stories as historically accurate or allegory. I appreciate your comments but if you really are a Christian, trying to follow in Christ's footsteps and show love and grace to people, would you try and condemn me for not being a Christian like you are? We can disagree all we want about evolution but we still have the same God in the end, we both "win" as you might put it. I'll simpy end with this- you are not God either, and you can't possibly know everything about Him or how he works, so as Oliver Cromwell once put it "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

mvenus929's picture
Managing Director of Progressive U

"You think I'm a fool? Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion. But consider this
If I am right, I die and will live in heaven for eternity. I win.
If I am wrong, I live a good and peaceful life, serving others and trying to better this world, I die and turn to dust and will have lived a good life. I still win.
either way I win."

Well, I don't think that you should choose your belief based on the benefits it offers. So if you're a Christian based on that, you might want to rethink your beliefs. Just saying...

~C
Visit my blog.

Jesus may very well be your rock and god, but I don't remember anything in the gospels about mitchondrial DNA.

I think framing the debate as a "religion vs. evolution" controversy is entirely manufactured. We don't look to the bible, koran, vedic texts, etc for detailed information about physics, chemistry, medicine, computer science, geology or mathematics. I don't understand why it has to apply to biology.

I vigorously disagree with your comments regarding evolution and creationism in the classroom.

I maintain that evolution cannot be both a fact and a theory at the same time. You (and Gould) are inconsistent regarding the application of some definitions. Words have specific, enduring meanings. The definitions of the words ‘fact’ and ‘theory’ establish clear demarcation lines to which evolutionists give lip service, but they are given to fits of paramnesia where the true denotations of these words conveniently evaporate.

Gould accurately states; “Facts are the world's data.” I agree. “Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts.” I agree again. But then, in just a few short sentences, he turns off his impeccable discernment and subjectively opines that evolutionary theory is as established as the certainty that apples will always fall, desperately selling the idea of evolution as a fact. In a new twist on the old ‘bait-and-switch’, he knows the meanings and then conveniently forgets the meanings. That evolution is as much a fact as gravity is an opinion. The word meanings, however, tell a different story. (By the way, none of Einstein’s theories ever replaced any of Newton’s laws. They coexist as laws and theories always have: according to the rules of definition.)

Fact: something that actually exists or is known, by experience or observation, to exist or to have happened; an objective reality or verifiable truth. Facts are never in a state of flux. They are a raw resource incapable of speaking for themselves. To be useful, facts must be interpreted by ideas that individuals apply to them.

Theory: a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena; especially a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behaviour of a specified set of phenomena. Theories are subjective in nature, invite correction and amendments, and attempt to explain factual data.

These definitions are mutually exclusive; i.e. that which is specifically known vs. a general proposition which attempts to explain that which is known. Strictly speaking, creationism, and evolutionism are both theories supporting different philosophies because they have different ways of explaining the facts. Just because you and all the king’s men, subjectively think my explanation of the facts is silly does not, in any way, raise your theory to a factual level.

Here are two facts. 1. Some people are convinced that evolution best explains the scientific data. 2. Some people are convinced that special creation best explains the scientific data. These are bare facts, undeniably verifiable and quantifiable by observation. (Say, I have an idea! Why don’t we teach these facts to students?)

That evolution or creation actually happened, on the other hand, is theoretical conjecture requiring faith, conviction and/or simple conditioning. It is not discernable from the bare facts. The observational, verifiable facts are the same for both camps and are interpreted according to one’s already established paradigm. If you find a so-called scientific fact with which a knowledgeable creationist disagrees, it is a safe bet it is not raw data or a bare fact at all, but has been influenced or manipulated in one way or another by a particular bias.

You have it backwards when you say that natural selection is the theory part of the fact of evolution. Selection is observed, whether natural or artificial. Genetic deviation, environment or human intervention can, and have, forced changes in animals within their ‘kind’ but they do not change into other animals as Darwin proposed. Creationists believe in rapid speciation because we see it happening. Dogs now come in all shapes, colours and sizes but they are still dogs. The original dog kind had enough built-in genetic information to allow offspring with incredible variation. Loss of certain coded information accounts for all differences. None of this implies evolution or disagrees with the principles of special creation.

It was not always so but creationists are now forced into communicating by accommodating every word to an illusive, evolutionary acceptance level. Groups like Answers in Genesis are changing that with a growing, and long-overdue, reformation. Your statement “They employ some scientific thinkers to attempt to refute scientific data new and old…” is a complete fabrication and misrepresentation. If a set of data is arrived at based on presupposition, it needs to be pointed out. Evolutionists are not honest in selling their conclusions. We agree, for example, that findings with respect to radiocarbon dating are, in most cases, impeccably accurate within the boundaries of their assumptions. This is passed off to the public, however, as proof that the conclusions have been scientifically proven, when, in reality, the entire method is built on sand. All dating methods begin with assumptions, but the public is never made aware of this. If you can ever devise a method which does not begin with an assumption, please let us know. In the meantime, have the candour to preface your findings with: “If such-and-such is true, then…”.

I disagree entirely with your assessment that creationism is not about good science but rather morality. This may be news to some but; creationists agree with every speck of factual data, every proven principle and every established law of science. We only disagree with historical science when it attempts to explain the unverifiable past in terms of unverifiable suppositions. The phenomenon of apples falling can be tested, observed and repeated. None of this applies to evolution. We point out that there are two kinds of science where, again, the evolutionist attempts to blur the lines of demarcation. There is that which is verifiable and that which is conjecture, just as in every discipline. Evolutionists are just plain lying when they tell us that their conjectural conclusions are fact. It is as much an injustice to students to feed them this lop-sided way of thinking as it would be if we allowed, for example, only the prosecution to bring evidence at a trial, insisting that the defence must remain quiet because, after all, everyone knows the man is guilty. Prejudice exists at all levels of human endeavour.

Also, you have incorrectly assessed that morality is the goal of creationism. It is true that believing the Bible to be 100% accurate carries with it a responsibility to be consistent. It is this consistency that asserts that the moral code set out by our Creator is ultimately true. This, however, is not the ultimate goal and I suggest that you misunderstood the comments of the speaker you were talking to. The reason you think of creationism in terms of simple morality is because one is not capable of grasping, with one’s intellect alone, the depth and the riches of God’s Word. He has made sure of that. The reason we establish God’s laws (what you call morality) is to show the impossibility of the perfection required by God. This impossibility, in turn, drives us to Christ, the only substitutionary sacrifice acceptable to the ultimate Lawgiver.

Evolutionists, although not able to experience regeneration as defined by God, and therefore denying that it exists, would be wise to acknowledge this phenomenon as a ‘paradigm changing experience’ if they are at all interested in understanding the religious connection.

Creationism is about ‘good science’ because it embraces all real science that can be empirically known. It also connects to, and lays the foundation for, that which can only be known by means unavailable to simplistic evolution. Man is made in the image of his Creator and all attempts to understand anything, whether through science, philosophy or religion is a natural expression of that origin, however misguided. To put it another way, man is ultimately religious. Science will always give rise to questions like “Where did we come from?” and “Why are we here?”. Answers to these questions are addressed either in terms of evolution or creation and must be classified as religious. They are either humanistic or theistic, but always religious.

Religion: a specific set of fundamental beliefs agreed upon by a number of persons concerning the origin, nature and purpose of the universe, usually containing faith, a moral code and devotional or ritual observances.

It is impossible to teach students that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and in the same breath tell them everything happened by undirected chance. If they are honest with themselves they will eventually see the discrepancy. Real science ultimately glorifies its inventor and identifies the original action of which the universe is the reaction. It is to those who are willing that God reveals Himself through His Word. It is there He tells them to first let Him deal with the sin problem, and, having that barrier removed, the eyes are opened and the answers begin to fall into place.

The best advice I can give you is to stop assuming you are a Christian; you are not, and it is better for you not to deceive yourself. You may be a theist, but not a follower of Christ. Your admiration for human speculation supersedes what God plainly says. It is only on the pages of the Bible that we meet Jesus Christ and embrace Him. You do not believe the Bible as written.

Jesus said, “How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?” And, to the Jews, of what is written by Moses regarding the foundations of Christianity He said, “…had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”

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