There have been some great blogs on religion and Christianity and God lately. I have enjoyed the discussions that have resulted. I feel these blogs are very progressive. While writing a comment on one of these blogs I had a thought that would have made my comment into a blog, so I decided to come over here and post this thought, without taking up the comment space.
My thought was this: why do so many people have a problem with Christianity? You would think that more people would want to buy into this particular religion. It is the only one that does not require you to spend your life in ceaseless toil, trying to become enlightened, or be a completely perfect person, according to a certain set of rules or laws. It gives you a reason to live and a promise for eternity. Please forgive me, but a Christian's eternity sounds like more fun than a mass spirit or the nothingness of an atheist.
My God accepts everyone who comes to Him, regardless of race, background, or past transgressions. One of my favorite Bible verses, Romans 5:8, tells us this: But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The christian God loves the whole world, and all we as humans need to do to join His "club" is to believe that He sent His son, Jesus to die for our sins, and that Jesus rose from the dead. Far-fetched you say? No more far-fetched then some of the other stuff out there that people believe. We don't need to do anything, except believe. Everything else comes after. Yes, there is a way to live your life once you have chosen to believe. Most of it is the same moral code that most people, regardless of religion, follow. There is nothing weird or fanatic that Christians have to do, though sometimes it seems that way. And the rewards are amazing. An eternity in heaven when you die, filled with rewards based on your actions on earth. His guidance and help when we are on earth. An assurance of better things to come. What other religion can give you all that? And remember that all this is based on a belief, not a lot of works and performing rituals.
What proof do I have? What kind of proof will satisfy you? The fact that Bible passes all of the tests we use to verify ancient documents better than any other ancient document isn't enough. Paleontology confirms the locations and happenings the Bible describes. The Bible does not contradict itself, although some people claim it does. And there are more copies that agree with each other in a shorter time period than any other document.
I could point the number of believers and the things some of them have accomplished with God's help. That isn't proof enough? In the end, this a free country and I will be the last person to try to force you to change your point of view. My blog is just asking the question, why do we as humans want to work for what God wants to give us for free? Why does it bother us that we have to accept God's grace to become a christian? Why does His free gift make us suspicious? What do you think?
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As an agnostic who was raised Christian I believe in 99% of Christian values. That faith has an excellent ethical and moral basis and a wonderful belief in helping people. The one thing that I don't like about Christianity however is the fact that many Christians that I know are under the distinct impression that if, say, Mother Teresa had not been Christian she would have gone to hell--despite her love for those around her. They also believe that Ghandi went to hell and that I am going to hell. I have a hard time with a religion that preaches complete acceptance and then turns around to tell me that if I don't toe the line and believe in their god I'll go to hell.
~CallieV
I can understand not wanting to be a Christian, but why do they have to attack christians for what fanatics do.
I certainly haven't noticed any difference between the two.
Fanatics are a whole different ball game -- like Fred Phelps. But for the most part, at least from what I have experienced, trying to rationalize with christians is impossible. They refuse to admit any infallability within the bible, their religions' methods, the pope, etc. People whose only response to why god exists is, "Because the bible says so." Then when phrased as how do you know the bible is right, "Because god wrote the bible." It is incredibly frustrating trying to understand how one's brain can block out all sense of logic over a book that was written before man understood any of our natural surroundings (natural phenomenon, anatomy, evolution, medical technology...).
I don't think anyone is attacking every christian ever! But we just want to understand...why???
In addition, most christians feel that despite how discriminatory legislation can be it is justified because allowing such behavior is a "sin." What christians need to understand is that our govt is not your church! Govt is based on SECULAR morality, influenced heavily by individual rights -- not christian doctrine.
That "God wrote the Bible" argument is driving me nuts. If I claimed that God had spoken to me and that I had transcribed every word, would those Bible-thumpers take the transcription seriously?
There are allot of uneducated christians who abandon logic.
I've been argueig with uneducated evolutionists who have the same problem.
I hope it is not a universal truth that all social movements have a few brains and a bunch of rhetoric lead masses, but I haven't found one that isn't yet.
We believe the Bible because of some pretty strict criteria.
its easier to understand if you look exclusively at the new testament, but the same applies to the old.
For a writing to make into into the Bible:
1) Any real events contained with in must be confirmable.
The crucifiction, or baptism of Christ for instance. There were witnesses, the writers of the gospels interviewed witness just like a modern day reporter.
A big one on this is the abuility to tie stories about Christ back to one of the apostles. The apostles wrote about 40% of the new testament. Most people would chalk that up to 99%, but historically its hard to confirm that Saul of Tarsus was an apostle. The other 1% was a church historian who did interviews with apostles.
2) The message of the writing has to be internally consistent, and consistent with other things that have been accepted as God Inspired.
3) The message must be universally accepted, and it must be lastingly so.
The masses would immediately reject a new book claiming to be the word of God. The Theologians would honestly consider it.
Anyone who says the Bible has no contradictions hasn't read it objectively. First of all, to make the very important case of Jesus's divinity, 2 gospels trace his lineage back to King David. This is important because the messiah was prophecied to be of David's blood. Matthew & Luke's tracings of Jesus's ancestors do not corroberate at all. While it can be argued that the problem is in translation, that doesn't account for the fact that not only do the names differ (starting from Joseph's dad), but more importantly, they differ in number. Translation can account for different spellings of names, but not quantities. As the Dire Straits put so well, "two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong".
Also, Judas hanged himself in Matthew, but in Acts, he fell & his entrails spilled out.
As far as copies agreeing with themselves, have you looked at the authenticated and just-as-old gnostic gospels? There is more to early Christianity than mainstream churches are willing to embrace.
Palentology is the study of ancient life (that predated humanity & the Bible). I think you really meant Archaeology.
Just because the Christian heaven seems more appealing than the alternative does not make it true. Honest inquiry means that you accept the truth no matter how unpleasant, counterintuitive, or inconvenient it is. Heaven seems to me to be a bribe and hell a threat. Being good should come from your soul, not greed or fear.
I have no problem with religion in general or Christianity in particular until it oversteps its bounds, is used by the powerful to manipulate the masses, suppresses knowledge, or makes moral demands of non-believers who hold different values and are not bound by faith-based ideals.
I had the same feelings towards the Bible untill I realized that I would have to view the Bible like a "book or Morals" It is used by kings for power and maybe that was its intent in the first place, since Monarchy was the system of governing used in those ages, please correct me if I am wrong! I got a B in World History :(
The gnostic gospels are centuries newer than the four in the gospels in the bible.
The gnostics didn't form untill around the 3rd century. Most of their documents are falsely attributed to people who lived in the 1st. But historians have known that for more than 50 years now.
God said "before you were in the womb, I knew thee". That means that he knew before they were born, that the majority of people would end up burning in hell for eternity. In any game of chance, when the dealer knows the outcome, that means that the game is rigged. There can be no real free agency or choice in such a system.
If god made any of us with the knowledge that that person would burn in Hell for eternity, then why create them? Seems like the cruelest imaginable evil to me. It's like having a baby for the purpose of torturing it horribly and unrelentingly for eternity. That's not something any God I could love would do.
Haha. Sorry, but the first part is really hilarious.
I believe that's the belief of the Calvinists, though. Most Christians don't believe in predestination. I think.
The Guest is right though. It is only an evil god that would creat a hell to torture someone he made. That is why any religion with a "hell" and at the same time a "god" that is all powerful can only be evil.
Hell is being separated from God. Hell isn't a flaming pit that god created. it is "having God's word ripped from you." God didn't create a place of punishment for people who don't accept him. He just warns us that eventually he will give up on those of us who haven't accepted him and hole up in heaven with those who have.
being surrounded by pushy, obnoxious, proselytizing Christians who think everyone really gives a crap about Jesus.
Its a tricky subject. WIth allot of disagreement.
Most christians now adays would use the chess analogy.
What happens when you play chess with a grandmaster. He can't outright control your moves but he can manipulate you into doing what he wants you to.
God plays the game, leaves us our free will, but several several more moves ahead than we can. That doesn't mean cheating.
it our choice whether to accept him. God can't be blamed for that. he plays by the rules and saves as many as he can with those limitations.
I was raised Southern Baptist and they believed in it.
The geneology in MAtthew traces Mary's Husbands family and the geneology in Luke traces Mary's family, an unusual thing in those times.
Archeology, yes. sorry about that.
Well than, if bribes and threats are not your thing, than why bother at all? Why are you trying to live a proper life?
May the Force be with you...and God bless.
Why am I trying to live a proper life? Because I can and because I want to. I guess you'd know your God better than I do, but I'm almost sure that He would prefer that you be good because you want to, not because you're trying to go to Heaven and avoiding Hell.
Well than, if bribes and threats are not your thing, than why bother at all? Why are you trying to live a proper life?
Because it feels good to do good.
Because morals don't have to come from a religion.
Because only through doing good can we acheive peace.
Because I want others to be good to me.
Because I want to set an example for my younger sisters.
Because living by example is stronger than any persuation techniques.
Sorry I just thought that was worth repeating.
9 of the ten the cammandments are pretty much universal. You don't need a particular religion to fine them. That is support that their is a universal truth. Some think that is support that their is a universal creator.
Tilly, If your life is simply steered by fear and reward, then you are on the lowest rung of moral development. Similar to that of a child. Luckilly we have a world of grownups who actually care about eachother, and not everyone is led by selfishness, greed and fear.
Did you actually read your bible or did you just ask somebody? Luke 4:23 clearly states: "And Jesus himself ...being the son of Joseph which was the Son of Heli, (24) which was the son of Mat, that which was the son of Elsi, which was the son of"... and on to David (this list continues on to Adam but that's beyond the scope of our conversation).
Mary is not mentioned ibn this geneology. See for yourself. You need to seek some of that enlightenment.
As far as bothering, all good people want a better world. That starts with ourselves.
Callie,
You said, "I have a hard time with a religion that preaches complete acceptance and then turns around to tell me that if I don't toe the line and believe in their god I'll go to hell."
I understand what you're saying, but the Christian position differs from your premise that someone goes to Hell because they "don't toe the line." The orthodox Christian position is that God is a God of perfect justice and holiness--a standard that no humain attains. Every one us is crooked deep down (even Ma Teresa). God's complete acceptance happens only through the wrath-satisfying death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I can't presume upon your experiences and how folks have related the Christian message to you, but you need to know that no one goes to hell (strictly speaking) for not doing something, only because they are something--namely, a sinner. I realize this is an offensive thing to say, but the gospel of salvation by faith is only understood as "good news" when we come to grips with the bad news of our sinfulness (which I think, when we're honest with ourselves, we knew already).
Christianity is all accepting.
However for us who believe that the Universe itself, or possibly our God has a hard set of morals and way of doing things. Its not hard to believe that that set is exclusive.
If he is really the King of the whole the universe, of course their would be reprecussions for rejecting his offer of mercy. Especially for a peoples who have all done wrong.
Two year old's know how and when to lie. Teenagers lust. Its just human nature.
"why do so many people have a problem with Christianity?"
I'm not really sure what you meant by this. If you were wondering why so many people spend their lives attacking Christianity, it's just that they run of out hobbies. Don't pay attention to them. However, if you were just wondering why so many people reject Christianity, just look at the answers you've received. As a religion, Christianity is not perfect and is far from logical.
On an unrelated note, I hate Guests. They remind me of those people who signed the anti-abortion petition without including their last names yesterday.
Christianity The only religion that doesn't require one to "toil" to become enlightened?!? THAT is one of your Selling point for Christianity!? Wow, that is really scary. If your religion lets you live a life of ignorance, then that is really scary. So it encourages people to be mindless zombies, staring cluelessly at life like a deer in headlights?
That sounds more like an arguement on why we should never put Christians in charge of anything of any importance. I would definately not want a mindless zombie doing our nations thinking!
Luckilly not all Christians are mindless zombies, and many do seek enlightenment. And once they achieve that enlightenment, they realize it doesn't matter what religion someone is as long as they are a good person who treats others as one would want to be treated themselves.
i beleive what he means is that Christianity saves before you enter into salvation.
It is after you are accepted into the family of God that you work towards understanding. You don't work towards it for fear of not being saved. But because you want to know more about the one who saved you.
Hey sheep! Glad you got a laugh!
truthinlogic, I meant the weird stuff buddhists have to do as they travel torwards the utimate enlightenment, as they call it. My religion doesn't allow me to be stupid, and I am not a mindless zombie. I have yet to meet anyone, christian or otherwise who is a mindless zombie. You're retarded. Your religion IS going to matter someday, whether you are the right one or I am or neither of us is. One religion has to be right, even if its the athiest point of view.
No one yet as told me what religion is perfect. Because There isn't one, what you believe depends on your point of view.
I am not steered by reward and fear. I have aproblem with the whole reward thing, too. Hell is real thing, and it is often part of the reason a person becomes a christian. I do not walk around paralized because it is there!
May the Force be with you...and God bless.
If you haven't met a Christian who is a mindless zombie, then you're very lucky. We've got a lot of that around here.
And I totally agree that that isn't a good thing. You should know what and why you believe. And be able to articulate it. I seem to have some work to do!
May the Force be with you...and God bless.
Everyone wants to talk about how a loving God would not create hell. Hell was created for the devil and the rest of the fallen angels who despite seeing God in his infinite glory decided to rise against him and try to overthrow him. Such beings have their punishment waiting for them. Now you can imagine how angry the devil was, knowing that in the end he will be punished eternally for his actions. He decides to try and destroy God’s plan for mankind by lying to them, leading them into sin, and thus sending them to hell with him. The thing I don’t get is why everyone wants to go to heaven. Heaven is a place described as where God’s presence and glory abounds. Those who do not love God with all their heart, mind, and soul should not want to go there and will not be allowed there, for the mere fact that they do not belong there. They are those who have followed the devil, knowingly or unknowingly, and so will spend eternity where he is.
You're right. Heaven is too crowded and overrated anyway.
I’m pretty sure that’s not true, but even if it is there is only other alternative is hell, which is way more crowded and is most certainly underrated.
Whatever!
I believe in heavan and hell, you believe in neither. Who's right? We won't know till we die. But if I'm wrong, I've lost nothing, whereas if you are wrong, you will have lost something wonderful.
May the Force be with you...and God bless.
But if I am right you just lost the ONLY life you have to live.
We shouldn't live life in anticipation for an afterworld.
Living on earth is the important part. That doesn't necessarily mean that we should ditch all religions or act out anything we would like. I choose to live a moral life according to the law of reciprocity and individual rights, not spout out religious babble about an afterlife that most likely doesn't exist. I believe in energy -- it cannot be created or destroyed. We have the amount of energy we have in the universe. Perhaps my energy will live on in some form -- but it won't be any inkling of me or my conciousness.
So is this one of those cases where people believe in God just "in case" there are heaven and hell and not because they really believe in God? That's cheap.
"It is the only one that does not require you to spend your life in ceaseless toil..."
so Xians are in ceaseless toil? doesn't Paul tell that slave to return to his master? Aren't Xians deaf, dumb, and blind and told to look at a pie in the sky?
"...trying to become enlightened.."
so you are saying that folks should stay stupid?
"according to a certain set of rules or laws..." and Xianity doesn't have a tremendous amount of laws?
what planet are you on?
I hate the "what will I have lost by being religious but you're going to hell" argument. Just keep right on pulling that yoke and don't think about why.
If god is all powerful and all knowing and created everything - EVERYTHING, from nothing - then he created sin too. If these creations are in his image, does this make god a sinner himself?