If the subject of the resurrection of Jesus Christ were to be argued by academics, researching professors and the like. The number one theory that atheists would claim against the resurrection is the Constantine Conspiracy. This is how the Constantine theory works. The earliest Christians, and the first followers never believed him to be God. They though he was just a great teacher. Its not until the fourth Century that Jesus is turned into a god. Supposedly when the Roman Emperor Constantine became a Christian he decided to deify Christ, and this is how we have the Jesus we know today.
I decided to write on this theory because when you take an informed look at the theory it becomes so ridiculous that it really is funny. Lets see what had to happen for this conspiracy theory to be true. First we have nearly 6,000 full and partial Greek manuscripts of the New Testament from before Constantine was alive. So now Constantine and his supporters have to find many times 6,000 manuscripts, change them to say that Jesus rose from the dead, don't get caught, and they can't show their ink work. Now, do you honestly think that the new testament hadn't been translated by the fourth century? There was by this time New Testament translations in Latin, Syriac, and Coptic. So now our conspirators need to find many times 6,000 Greek manuscripts, all the Latin, Coptic, and Syriac translations, change them to say Jesus is God, and rose from the dead, don't get caught and don't show their ink work.
It gets better.
We have so many written quotations of the Bible by early church fathers that we can recreate over 95% of the New Testament with quotations alone. Lets go over what has to happen now. Our conspirators have to find many times 6,000 manuscripts, don't get caught, don't show their ink work, and never tell anyone. Next they need to find all the Latin, Syriac, and Coptic translations, don't get caught, don't show their ink work, and never tell anyone. Then they need to find all the writings of the early church fathers, change them to say that Jesus is a god and rose from the dead, don't get caught, don't show their ink work, and never tell anyone. Not even the Justice League could pull that off! This is a ridiculous theory.
Parts I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
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Well, first off my question would be, what do you consider complete? The bible has been edited throughout the centuries. Different sects include different books. Then there are some, like the Dead Sea Scrolls that we rejected from the bible.
Whatever, though. That's of minor importance seeing as (a) the whole council of Constantine thing is that previously there were different sects of Christianity with wildly different view points and, as a result of the actions of Constantine, one particular idea of Christianity won out over the others.
But, and this is the big thing, what of it? Who cares if people thought he was the son of god in the early worship of Christianity? What does it matter? There are plenty of cults and religions whose core myths have lasted longer and not changed. What's so special about this?
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Well, if all the early Christians didn't beliece that Jesus rose from the dead, then this means that he didn't rise fromt the dead. However the idea sthat won in the council were the ideas in the Bible, orthodoxy has been challenged but it still remains today.
What? Truth does not reflect belief. 1 person could have believed that Jesus rose from the dead as the Son of God and it could be true. Or thousands could have and it could have been false.
How do you know that the ideas that survived are correct?
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Yes, belief does not prove truth in the context of this SPECIFIC post, but a lack of belief would show a lack of truth.
First of all, belief and reality never have to align. In this matter or in any other. A lack of belief, in this contest, would not mean that it was untrue. All it would mean is that, in this instance, as the stroy spread, it became distorted. The problem is that we have no reason to believe that the decisions made by the council were necessarily correct. I, of course, think that any religious signifigance attached to Jesus is incorrect. However, even if that were not the case, the decisions of the council would still be suspect. As it is, we know that at that point, one version of Christianity won out at this point in time. We have no reason to believe that what was decided at Constantinople is actually the truth. The problem is that when the law is behind an idea, it is hard to deny it.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Well, I would tend to think that if all the followers of Jesus never saw him ressurect, and just thought that he was a good teacher, it would mean that he never did rise from the dead and he was just a good teacher. I'm not in the habit of arbitrarily disagreeing with people. But, I do believe that the earliest of followers did see Jesus after the resurrection, they knew he was God, and that Constantine did not invent the resurrection.
I don't deny that before Constantine, there were people who thaught Jesus rose from the dead. However, not all so-called Christians believed that at the time. I, of course, think that it's all bogus, but that's besdie the point now. The point is that, as the story spread, it got distorted and then the distortions became what people believed. I couldn't say what the original belief was. However, at Constantinople, the Son of God/Ressurected version of Jesus finally won out over all the other versions.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
But, we have the original writings of Paul and of the disciples. So we know what the original beliefs of the church have been, and still are today. The people didn't believe the resurrection were the kind of people who believed in Jesus as a moral teacher, but not as God. I don't want to get too much into it, but for theological reasons these people really aren't even Christians. The council of Nicea affirmed orthodox doctrine that was fundamental to the Christian belief. It was created to counter heresies in the Truth.
My point in summary is this, the same Christianity that began remained the same through Constantine and the Council of Nicea. The many many manuscripts of the new testament, in their many languages, and the writings of Church fathers that we have prove that this is true.
Original writings? Can you send me a link providing me with evidence that these are original writings?
Consider your point understood.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
I'll have to search for a link, and I'm getting ready to go the UC- Uconn football game, so your its going to have to wait for tomorrow. Sorry
No problem.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
It's amazing to me how unedited the Bible has been sense written, it tells me the Holy spirit was definitely at work.
How unedited? Until a century ago the KJV said there were unicorns, the Bible was retranslated so that it didn't say unicorns. Cuz mythical creatures damage the already zero authinticity of the Bible.
Btw, I'd love to see Muslims, Jews and Hindu's say the exacty same think you and the author of this blog said, except about their own books. Which is what happens, making the Bible, nothing special.
Stole the words.... I'll have you know that the police have been informed and have made a very strong case. I'll see you in court!
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
What you talked about was not a change in the original Bible. It was a change in how the original Bible was translated. Scholars are always finding ways to better translate the Bible from Greek and Hebrew. I would know, I am taking a Greek class right now.
what she said haha.
It's so good that Rethink is able to come up with respones herself.
Haha I guess the "she" comment was deserved.
All I have to say is, regardless of how well I can try to prove God is there, or how well you can try to prove he isn't, it's not going to make him any more real or any less real.
Sorry, the she part was an accident, didn't mean for that, my apologies.
But God cannot be proven, no one has tried to actually using science, they just use faith, never science.
Right, but our method of translation is getting better, for all holy books, making the Bible like I've said not special in the least. But when books are translated, the meaning and some words get lost, so to fully understand the Bible you must read it in its own language not in a translated language. Because early Hebrew and Yiddish that the Bible was first written in, does use a form of the word unicorn, funny how words get lost in the translation, aye?
Early Yiddish? Yiddish came about in the Middle Ages, a mixture of Hebrew and German. The Torah was not written in Yiddish.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
lol, my bad, too many pages open at once. early Greek.
fair enough. Shoot I have 9 windows of websites open right now. Plus a music player, 11 e-mails, and a game of spider solitaire. I really should close some of that stuff.
You definitely do use some of the meaning when you translate. Several examples come to mind, and I've only been taking Koine Greek for two months. This is why it is important for church leaders to know the original languages. Just because we translate the Bible does not make it less special though. The logic is backwards. The Bible is not more or less special because it is translated. It is translated because it is so spiritual. Now, before you get going writing your response. I know the writings of many other religions have been translated, as they should be. But I believe the Bible is different because it is true, and this can be seen because it holds up under rigorous challenge.
Yes it does. The reason the Bible isn't special is because it is one of many "revealed holy books" that the God of the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindu's and others gave them...so that makes the Bible anything but special. All the other books hold up under rigorous challenge just as well as the Bible, and in some cases the Koran holds up a lil stronger.
I think the Koran starts losing a lot of ground when it says to convert Jews and Christians with the sword. Christians have done violence to "convert" others, but that is just a perversion of what the Bible says.
In your mind it loses ground, but most Muslims don't try to convert that way, they actually don't try to convert at all, except at certain times. Christians are the only ones who try to convert, something that is widely seen in newer religions, basically Christians haven't grown up enough to realize that they are fighting a losing battle and aren't happy with the outcome because they think they're right, when in fact they have as good a chance as any other revealed religion at being right. The Bible says to convert, not shove it down peoples throat which the majority of Christians do. Also the thing about the swords is a skewed translation that the neocon movement likes to use, it's part of the extremist islam translation, not the average one. Christians are more violent historically wise than any other religion known to man.
The Qu'ran has it right. "Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path." (Al-Baqarah, 2:256).
If there truly is a Right Path, then everyone should see it clearly, not be forced to follow it.
Everyone has their own Right Path, and religions have no right to tell people which one is right becase what is right to the person's beliefs is right.
Muslims don't try to convert at all, really? Last time I checked they are converting all over the place. Islam is expanding quickly. In Africa for existence there are many many Islamic hosptitals, clinics, and orphanages all for the purpose of converting people to Islam. Trying to convert some one is not shoving your beliefs down one's throat. You just put it like that to make it seem wrong for people of religion to share their beliefs. I would never accuse you of shoving your beliefs down my throat just because you disagree with me.
They don't try to convert, they tell people about their religion and move on. Christians are the only ones who come back continually until they bug the everloving shit out of people, so that they convert not because they believe but to get Christians away from them. Just like I tell people about Deism, if they choose to believe what I talk about that's fine, if not, well whatever they believe works for them, is fine with me.
You wouldn't say that because I haven't shared my religious beliefs with you.
So let me get this straight, people convert to Christianity because they are annoyed by Christians?
Not because they are annoyed, but because like in my neighborhood, you will get bombarded at your door by many denominations telling you to convert because the end is near and we will burn in hell. I tell them, that hell is a wonderful place and that I am a satanist and we'd welcome them into our pit....makes them scurry, superstitious folks I tell ya.(btw I'm not a satanist, but it's an easy way to get them away.) But some people I know who are not Christians will tell these wonderful people that they are Christians so that they won't be bothered anymore. No it doesn't convert people, but they seem to think they're Christians because they save someone from that imaginary place known as hell.
Christianity ruled the world for thousands of years. Why can't Muslims have the world for at least a few hundred? No religions have a problem with it, only Christianity does because once people realize that Christianity isn't all it's cracked up to be, then Christianity loses its power and fear tactics over people.
I can't say that I'd be fine with Muslims ruling the world, but that exyends to any religion.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
I'm really not fine with it either, but it encompasses all religion including christianity.
Agreed
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
do you mean that you don't appreciate people talking to you about their religion, or do you mean that they shouldn't be allowed to?
He means that Christians are, more than any other religion, annoyingly persistant. They don't take no for an answer. Not everyone, obviously, but a lot.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Jsaj said what I meant. Christians(this includes LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses) are the only religion that feels the self-righteous need to convert people, not talk to people, but to say that you need to convert. Even muslims don't hand a pamphlet telling us about their religion, they'll talk about it, but only if you talk to them, you don't see them going door to door like salesmen. If you want to tell me about your religion fine, but I reserve the right to tell them to fuck off.
Nope ... That is not what skeptics argue. There was most certainly a pre-Constantine group of Christians that believed Jesus to be God. The Gospel of John was written in the late 1st/early 2nd century and it most definitely depicted Jesus as God:
Followed shortly thereafter by:
This is known as the "logos theory of John", it is well known to both skeptical and non-skeptical scholars of the bible. No one doubts that it existed before Constantine. And it CLEARLY equates the WORD as being the one and the same thing as both Jesus and God.
What skeptics argue is whether or not this was an accepted belief about Jesus or was it a belief of a splinter sect. You see there are other verses in the bible that show that Jesus was NOT God just as clearly as John shows he was.
In Mark and Luke a person addresses Jesus as "Good Teacher", Jesus replies, "Why call me good? None is good except for God" (quoted for memory). This clearly implies Jesus and God are separate. Jesus also prays to God to spare him the torture on the cross, again this clearly implies that Jesus is not God. Furthermore, we know from many non-canonical Gospels that one of the earliest Christian sects were the adoptionists -- Jews who believed that Jesus was the earthly messiah. They didn't believe in the virgin birth, nor the divinity of Jesus. They believed he was totally human, but that he was the ADOPTED son of God. They believe the moment of his adoption was when John the Baptizer baptised him in the Jordan river and the voice from heaven came down and said, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased."
So the belief certainly was present that Jesus was not divine. Of course there was also the DOCETISTS who believed that Jesus was totally divine and not a bit human. They believed that Jesus just appeared to be human. They believed that Jesus was not even crucified (how can you crucify a god?). They believed that Simon of Cyrene was magically made to look like Jesus and he died in Jesus' place.
There were a number of legendary beliefs about Jesus in the early years. The skeptics argue that proto-orthodox Christianity did not become orthodox Christianity until Constantine. That is the true argument that you have to address.
The thing that is ridiculous is your "informed look". You have already screwed up what the skeptics argue, and now you screw up the evidence. We do NOT have ANY full Greek manuscripts before Constantine .. NONE ... NADA. The earliest full Greek text we have is Codex Vaticanus and it is dated to around 400 CE, about 80 years after Constantine. We do have some pre-Constantine fragments ... about 67. Here is a blog I did a while back on New Testament manuscripts.
Of course, nobody argues that they did.
Yes, it is a ridiculous theory. But so far as I know, you are the only one who came up with it.
Cheers,
Darwin's Beagle
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Your link doesn't work. And I wanted to read that.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Good blog. :-)
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft