Religion is a man made belief system; man's weak and self-indulgent effort to make a god in man's own image. Twin towers fell for the self-indulgent twisted religion of despots and their puppets.
But America is also under siege by cultural fascists whose jihad is ultimately Marxism in the sheep's clothing of a holy environment and worshipful tolerance for anything and everything except traditional American values and Christianity. They are foundational atheists; their god's name is "NO GOD". Call it what you will; it is all nonetheless religion.
Genuine faith is a personal revelation by the transcendent God of everything, maker of the universe and everything in heaven and earth. He calls all who will hear his voice and not harden their hearts against His revelation of Himself; His revelation is clear for all who will see it. He is not far from anyone of us regardless of our belief or rejection of Him.
He is the eternal Spirit Who is the ultimate Source and Cause of everything. He is the only possible cause because only a spiritual entity can be infinite and eternal, without beginning or ending, from everlasting to everlasting. Those who reject Him postulate dead, inanimate and finite material (energy and matter) to be the source of everything from mind-breaking eternity past. Secularists/atheists cavalierly believe with no proof and circular logic that somehow tangibles like energy and matter can someway be eternal and infinite. Yet they refuse to consider, and thereby reject an intelligent Spirit Who is the infinite Source of everything. Instead, they put their fingers in their ears and scream "impossible" and "salve for the weak". They invent their own science and their own postulates that guaranty its proof, at least to their own way of thinking.
The reality is fascist jihadist of all stripes do not want this God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to exist because they don't want to face the judgement of the easy to recognize Creator/God. They have a dog in the fight; they don't want to bend a knee to any King Who is Holy and Who demands holiness to enter His presence. It is they who demand fealty and knees bowed before them and their religion of "anything goes except traditional values and Christianity", no matter how raunchy, depraved or sick. So they intellectualize their religious battle in the guise of "tolerance and diversity." The more honest among them will actually name their god and religion: "atheism".
The Psalmist said: "Only the fool says there is no God". Also remember the words of the wisest of God's creation, Solomon, the writer of Proverbs: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". Thus, according to the Old Testament, atheists are fools and who lack wisdom. There is only one solution. There is no hope except an appeal to Jesus Christ; ...the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created... He loves fools who lack wisdom. He says to all people who will hear:
"Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Jesus came to reveal God's mercy and grace to a world lost in sin. He came as the Savior of the world, because God wants none to perish but all to come to eternal life. For God so loved the world that He sent His one and only son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but receive eternal life. Jesus did not come to condemn the world but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.
John 21:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Many Christians become angry at the secularist who demand their sacraments of abortion and "anything goes" sexuality, and their attacks on traditional America and her foundations of Biblically based faith. But at Christmas time it is the season to remember our Lord's humility, mercy and grace. He said "blessed are the peace-makers". My prayer is that honest people of good will and good faith will consider Jesus and His work to save all from condemnation.
Or to sum all of the above up in a few sweet words:
MERRY CHRISTMAS! Jesus loves you.
So all atheists are out to destroy Christianity? How interesting.
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter."
traditionalists who intellectually do not accept or acknowledge God but are nonetheless culturally traditional. The Ayn Rand conservatives come to mind. But look at Richard Dawkins' new-release (just-in-time-for-Christmas) book "The God Delusion". An all-out frontal attack on Christians, Christianity and all-things traditional. It's an ad hominem attack, ridiculous and flawed. He is nevertheless proud of his efforts to blow-up Christianity, and any other traditional religion as well (Judaism and Islam, to name two others that inspire his ire).
The same argument that you make regarding atheists can be made for many Christians, most especially the fundamentalists and their attempts to destroy the "non-traditional" religions. If it's abhorrent in atheists, it is equally abhorrent in all who set out with that mission, Christians included. And I have known more than my fair share of bullheaded ignorant Christians who think that everyone should be forced to be Christian and that no other religion (or lack of religion) is acceptable and is the work of the Devil and an affront to Christianity. All foolishness in my opinion. I've never met an atheist who is out to destroy Christianity. I've met plenty of atheists, however, who are sick and tired of Christians trying to dictate their beliefs and opinions and are simply fed up. Judging atheism by the small portion that want Christianity to go away is no more accurate than judging Christians by those who spread BS about the Pagan religions.
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter."
You really want to know what gets their panties in a wad? Ignorant Christians who presume to have the authority to define what is orthodox or permissible in matters of belief. Or mandatory. Cultural fascists? That describes Christian fundamentalists to a tee. The arrogant and outright false assertion that Atheists deny "god" because we don't want to be subject to his judgement is so asinine as to be laughable. Can you get it through your thick skulls that ATHEISTS DO NOT BELIEVE IN A GOD? It's not spite against "god", it's just non-belief. Would one-syllable words make it easier to understand?
It's simple: keep the religious foolishness to yourselves and the Atheists will have no reason to bother you.
they see in the mirror. It is their anointing of themselves as all-knowing, all understanding. Yet notice that my analysis of the flaws in their house-of-cards belief system is never addressed. Atheism and theism are both intrinsically impossible to verify empirically with 100% certainty. That is why in Christianity it is called "faith" and "hope" ("who hopes for what he already has possession of?", to paraphrase Paul; but "then (on that Day), we shall see clearly"). Honest atheists agree; they will admit they cannot know for sure; it is the neophytes and sophomoric wanna-bees that say things like their atheism is a certainty and Darwinism is absolute fact like water is wet or gravity leads to a painful fall.
And that is why it is a faith; a religion; a hope (to quote Antony Flew, the 20th century's most influential atheist who disavowed atheism in November 2004, not for Christianity but for minimal deism). Flew's quote is that his fondest hope is that there is no afterlife.
If all atheists were as you make yourself appear, harmless little fuzz-balls that just want to be good guys and let the idiot Christians do their thing, "Merry Christmas and all that good stuff", that would be fine except that Christians would still be concerned for the atheists immortal souls. But the problem is that the great and terrible ideology of the 20th century has not gone away and it is founded firmly and foremost in atheism. That monstrosity of death and oppression is of course Marxism/socialism. More people have died at the hands of socialism than any ideology in history. Today, the secular/progressive culture warriors are just a rehash of that Marxist Hydra which refuses to stay beheaded.
So don't get your undies in a bunch, Lo. If you're mister America, Mom and apple pie (with a happy acquiescence to those who do believe in the God Who gave us the principles of our liberty), then my post was not addressed to you in the least. Oh, I would like to be stuck on an elevator with just you, me and my Bible for 24 hours. I believe I could convince you that my assurance of reality and God are reasonable and the only sanity. But I certainly respect good citizen atheists who aren't trying to convert the country into a cross between France and the former USSR. Dick Soros and his billions are at work for just that, and it is about atheism with a gulag attached.
And as I've said before, I'm not religious. I've just encountered the God of Enoch, Noah, Elijah, Daniel; the list goes on. He is a Person Who reveals Himself to those Who will know Him. Now you might call that a psychosis, but it's not religious. The Christianity of the church of the book of Acts was based on the word of God and the assembly of believers. The organization of the Church was important in the world-wide spread of the faith, but the faith has spread both because of the "religious" arm, and in spite of it. Most of today's evangelicals are not religious, we are people trying to walk with God and trying to obey His Great Commission: to make disciples of all nations and teaching (not conscripting) them to obey all that Jesus taught us.
So you're not a God believer, and I believe you. I do believe you follow the god in the mirror, and you'd be hard pressed to deny that. Nevertheless, I've enjoyed responding to your post.
Merry Christmas, Lo.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The Apostle Paul
Whether you agree or disagree with Homunculus, their message is clear that Jesus loves us and noone can deny that.
"Mothers and Children never truly part, bound by the beating of each other's hearts."- If a mother can love two children,why is it so hard to understand that a child can love two mothers? I love my daughters and my wonderful husband, and the Lord.
Here's a thought, neither Atheists nor Theists have irrefutable proof that God exists or doesn't.
As for Atheists being fools, I have met very few Atheists that I would dare class as fools, but I've met hundreds of bowel brained Theists in my time.
For the record faith is what Agnostics call willful suspension of disbelief.
...of what the Psalmist said. I didn't write that; it was King David who wrote twice in the Psalms:
The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.
My guess is David saw far more atheists in his time than you have in yours. Plus, he knew God; he was a man "after God's own heart". Before anyone you value as an intellect, thinker or philosopher, the Holy Spirit of God was indwelling and inspiring the men of the Bible to write the timeless and peerless thoughts of sanity and reality. See my signature below, quoting Paul, to understand why you feel the way you do...
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The Apostle Paul
You mean you don't find all this talk of the Bible being God's word, and of the Holy spirit of God indwelling and inspiring the men of the Bible, a little far fetched? A little bit cmmon now, pull the other one?
Whether or not David knew more Atheists in his lifetime than me is immaterial really, his views are hardly balanced and don't exactly smack of reason. In fact he just sounds like a pompus asshole. He basically says, Atheists are stupid and evil, well done Dave fella, you don't half sound like a narrow minded fool yourself. But what could we expect, his views weren't backward for his time, but we are not living in his time, so we should really know better. There's been some learnin since those days. You know with the printing press and the enlightenment and what have you.
The problem that lies between the type of Atheist you seem to detest so much, and Theists like yourself, is the fact that you are both extremists. It illustrates itself clearly on your part in your Red Menace style attitude to Marxism. Capitalism and Marxism are two extremes, neither is realistically sustainable. There is a middle ground which cannot be explored because capitalism has been allowed to grow, unchecked, to a point where corporations are more powerful than governments. A glut of the world's wealth is stuck at the top in the hands of a tiny minority of very sick people, I mean you would have to be sick if you could sit comfortably with a personal wealth stretching into hundreds of millions while most of the world starves. Trickle down theory, and the insanity of Reganomics is killing our planet, and making life unneccessarily hard for the majority of the world.
Capitalism needs to be checked, a cap needs to be put on personal wealth, say at about 20 million, any man who feels that this is not enough for him or his family to live off, is sick, and revelling in the basest, darkest parts of our human nature. Exactly the parts which most religions and philosophies condemn, except for Evangelicals, but they are merely a collection of the evil, the duped and the greedy. Jesus kicked the traders from the temple, and if the Christians are right, well ,then Evangelicals will burn come judgement day.
At the end of the day Agnosticism is the only truthful way of viewing such matters, it does not hinge on faith, it does not make wild assumptions, it says calm down you bunch of crazies, we're not done researching and exploring yet, so stop trying to play guessing games when we don't have any clear frame of reference. I've said it before, we have barely managed to lift ouselves off the surface of this planet, our knowledge of the cosmos and even reality is so scant, any God that might exist, if it was watching, will be rolling around laughing while making retard faces at us.
If we checked personal wealth at 20 million the economy would grind to a halt. Trickle down economics does work. We have an unemployment rate under five percent, despite two wars and 9-11. Carter was the worst president in the past forty years, and Regean was probably the first or second best. The Clinton boom was arguably the result of Reganomics, and tax cuts increase goverment revenue.
Go take an economics course. And no one wants unfettered capitalism.
"Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil."-C.S. Lewis
As I said, this option can not be explored, because unchecked capitalism has meant that the ridiculous and unsustainable economy we are locked into would have to collapse into chaos for us to start again. We would need a big dirty old war and the destruction of the Western economy in order for us to adopt a new system of checked capitalism. This is because the greedy have been allowed to grow too rich and too powerful to control. Any attempt to cap personal wealth would be met with resistance from people that this sick system has allowed to grow into the most powerful people on the planet.
You say trickle down theory works. That's interesting. So when we look at a tiny minority of the world, and the fact that they hold the vast majority of the worlds wealth, and control the majority of the world's resources, and then we look at the world majority and the fact that they are dying of starvation, without a pot to piss in, you deduce that trickle down theory is in fact working? Have you ever even been out of the United States. I suggest you get yourself down to India, or any of the countries on the African continent and see for yourself how well trickle down economics is working for them. If you couldn't be bothered leaving the US, then just take a trip to New Orleans and tell ask them how trickle down is serving them.
The American economy does not just effect America and Americans, it effects everybody, because the American economy does not just work independently from the rest of the world. The multi-billions held by a tiny minority of the American super rich has to come from somewhere, money isn't just invented as a reward for these people when they are industrious, it comes from the pockets of very real people, and despite your protests, it doesn't go back there, it just accumulates into a glut at the top.
And there are plenty of people who want unfettered capitalism, they may be a minority, but then again so are the people controlling the bulk of the worlds wealth and resources, what a freaky coincidence. Funnily enough they maintain that trickle down theory works too.
Also telling somebody to take an economics course, will not deflect attention from the fact that you obviously have a pretty grim handle on the subject yourself.
Will there ever be a time whem people are tolerant of other people's beliefs or lack of? if me not beleiving in god is not hurting anyone, what is the problem?
I can't really add to that. But if you ever think you might be interested in hearing why 85% of Americans believe in the God of the Bible, check my homepage on this site and let me know. I'd be glad to explain it in a way that will make sense. You may continue to choose to not believe it. But I know for sure the majority of "I'm a nice guy who just doesn't believe in God" atheists have never really been educated on what is in the Bible. Former President Harry Truman said the mark of a well-educated man was a thorough, working knowledge of the Bible. Virtually no atheists have such a knowledge, so in reality they have made an ideological decision based on ignorance. OF course, it's a free country. You don't have to believe. But if there really is excellent rationale to believe in God, and if real Christians (literally tens of millions of them) really are certain of His existence due to His supernatural revelation of Himself personally to them, wouldn't you at least want to check it out? I'm not talking about psychos who claim they were abducted by space aliens and that kind of thing. I'm talking about some of the most brilliant, successful and responsible people in the world. The club of genius Christians is enormously larger than the club of genius atheists; it's not even close, at least in the US. Why would so many brilliant people spend their time and energy believing nonsense? The Christian walk is far from easy. As the Apostle Paul said, if Christ did not rise (physically) from the dead, and we continue in such a worthless faith, we are to be most pitied.
Without Christianity, this world would be a far more barbaric, primitive and hostile place to live. It has been estimated that without Christianity we would be living in a world with far less technology; it is possible the industrial revolution would have never occurred.
Anyway, it's my bed time. Good night and Merry Christmas, TS
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The Apostle Paul
I was actually bought up in church. My grandmother was an ordained minister, i have cousins, and uncles who are also ordained ministers. Believe it or not before I "lost my religion" as someone once put it, i became ordained as well. so I am very educated in christianity. But I just no longer believe it in. ANd i dont think having a reigion or not having one, believing in God or not, have nothing to do with someone's intelligents. or at least it shouldn't. it should come from your heart. what do your heart tell you? believing in something do not make someone smarter or dumber. when people begin to spur out ignorance make them dumber. i don't thing there is anything wrong with religion, i just have a problem with people who distort it. i'm sure you know the type. And i really don't appreciate the people who act like they are holier than thou adn judge people because they don't believe in the things they do.
and when you say w/out christianity the world would be more primative, that's not true. China as you should know, have always been the most advance nation for centuries. 98% of the people are Atheists. and as far as hostile places to live. have you heard of the Crusades? That was very hostile.
but i have my beliefs and you have yours. I respect everyone's beliefs. And from your post I can tell you do as well.
have a good nite and a good year.
I grew up in a Christian home; my grandfather was a Methodist minister. We have home movies of him baptising me when I was an infant (I'm an old guy; these are 8mm silent home movies; decades before camcorders).
But the Methodists forgot to tell me the good news about Jesus. I just thought Jesus was sort of like George Washington; the founder of the church. I didn't realize He was God incarnate. When I was 12 (that would be 1965) my Methodist youth pastor told me the Bible was basically "fairy tales", stories that enabled people to understand what God wanted them to know but not actually "true". After that I "grew" into a wild young man on the front lines of the sexual revolution in the Woodstock generation.
After college I started my own business at a young age and became successful. I was a young, "yuppie" Baby Boomer, single and a "man about town". I was successful with the ladies and had an active social life.
One hung-over Sunday morning I found myself without my usual Sunday morning female company. I ate a little breakfast, got my newspaper and turned on my favorite Sunday show "Meet the Press". Now in my town after that show goes off a mega church in the area has it's services live on TV. It is an evangelical, Bible teaching church. I had always, in the past, changed the channel after Meet the Press because I didn't want to hear the annoying music of the church service.
But this particular morning my remote control was out of batteries. So when the church music started, rather than get up and change it I just left it on while I continued to read my newspaper. After a while I noticed the music had stopped. I heard the pastor of the church begin his sermon by saying "open your Bibles to...". I don't know what Scripture he taught that day, I don't remember. But as he began to read the Bible and then explain what it said, I found that interesting. Growing up in a church where the Bible was read briefly each Sunday but never "taught", I had never heard such a "sermon".
After a while I got up to go find my dusty, little read Bible. I began to follow along. I remembered the admonition of Harry Truman that the well-educated person had a "working knowledge of the Bible". At this point I could see how that might be interesting, even "fun". I had never heard anything so fascinating.
Of course, the Pastor's message was a presentation of the GOOD NEWS of JESUS. Eventually the pastor got to the part about all of us being sinners and falling short of God's glory, and about how Jesus is God Who took the flesh of a baby, grew into a man and lived a perfect life so He could save mankind from it's sins. At the end of the service he looked into the TV camera and spoke directly to me (it seemed). He said if anyone was in their home watching on TV they could pray right then and Jesus would save them "FOREVER" (my paraphrase).
Well, I felt a little ridiculous but the words spoke in my head (it will do me no harm). So I prayed the prayer for God to forgive me of my sins (I knew, maybe for the first time, that I was a sinner; I had never given it any thought before that morning). When I got up from my prayer, contrary to what I had believed prior to the prayer, I felt different. I felt a load had been lifted from me. I felt joy, peace and the love of Christ. Not in some huge, fireworks way, but in a comforting, quiet way.
Now I had no intention of "getting saved" that morning or any other time; I had never given it any thought. But I know now that the God of Everything reached out and saved me. All I did was fail to harden my heart against His message, which I realized I had been doing against "religion" all my life, or maybe just since that Methodist children's pastor told me the Bible was fairy tales.
But what happened to me that morning was no fairy tale. My life began to change, albeit slowly. About 5 years later I finally met the young woman I realized God had for me to marry. My life has been much different since then. In those years I've had the blessing of telling my "wild running buddies" about Jesus. They were hardened against Him and for years thought I had "lost my mind". But now (in their 50s) they too have come to know His existence, His reality and His sanity. He is all love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. He is more real than anything in my former life without Him.
My friends and I are all high net worth men with serious business interests, employers, and active in our communities. God has blessed us with much, and we realize much is expected of us.
My prayer is that today if you hear the voice of God calling you, don't harden your heart against Him. He will do you no harm; He wants to know you in a real, personal way. He will reveal Himself to you and save you if you will just open your heart to Him and say: "God, if you are there, please reveal yourself to me". He will. Go to www.biblegateway.com. Read the book of John and keep praying. He will reveal Himself to you if you don't reject Him.
God has taught me to hate the sin of atheism but to love atheists. I get angry at those who try to lead children, young people and society away from Christ; I'm "intolerant" of that. But you sound like a young man who thinks much as I did as a young man. I'm writing this to you this Christmas Eve morning so that maybe you will allow God to speak to your heart. He will do you no harm. He will love you and never leave you or forsake you.
God bless you, TS. Merry Christmas.
David
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The Apostle Paul
Were a defense against Muslim aggression.
"Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil."-C.S. Lewis
Correction: YOU THINK the crusades were a defense against Muslim aggression.
I have no preference between Muslim and Christian ethos, I am Agnostic, so for me they are much of a muchness as far as picking sides goes, but if we are to be honest here, the Christian Crusades were anything but defensive. It was the same old song, spread faith by the sword, crush the opposition. Christians threw the first stone despite Jesus' line on those without sin, and do unto others etc.
Next you'll be telling us that the inquisition was a defense against non-Christian "aggression".
I have to butt in here for just a moment. With all due respect, tens of millions of people believed for years and years that the world was flat. Great thinkers of that time adhered to that same belief. The fact that all of those people believed that "fact" with every fiber of their beings did not make it so. You ask why so many brilliant people would spend their time and energy believing nonsense... because it's human nature. We have a deep seated urge to believe that something bigger than ourselves exist because for the majority of us, none of this (read: life) makes sense otherwise. That doesn't necessarily make it truth. It simply makes it easier for us to make it from day to day. In the end, none of us know what the truth is, so why is it so vastly important for one side or the other to be right? You believe in God, that should be enough for you. Trying to force others to that same belief by calling their way of thinking ignorance has never worked and never will.
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter."
"If there is no God, then all things are permisable."-The Brothers Karmazof.
There are few honest atheists, in fact I have never met one. Atheists demand morals, claim that hurting the enviroment is evil, bow to Marx, yet they miss the contradiction in their belief system.
If their is no God, good and evil do not exist. Sartre understood this, but few atheists do.
"Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil."-C.S. Lewis
If you are morally currupt then good and evil do not exist with or without God. I am not an Atheist, but I understand this, as do most Atheists, but few Christians do.
I find it amusing how quickly people who claim to be christians jump to judge someone who don't believe in what they believe in. Isn't judging a big no-no in the christian faith?
munc==
Religion is a man made belief system; man's weak and self-indulgent effort to make a god in man's own image. Twin towers fell for the self-indulgent twisted religion of despots and their puppets.
DB=
From your reference to the twin towers falling I assume you mean ISLAM. Do you mean ALL of Islam or do you mean the (rather large) radical faction came about as a result of man's weak and self-indulgent effort to make a god in man's own image. Do you include Buddhism and Hinduism in there? Do you include some forms of Christianty in there as well? I don't think you meant to include ALL forms of religion in there. My guess is that you see your particular form of Christianity as being a religion directly from God.
If so, how do you know that it is your form that is real and not someone else's. The radical Islam group that was responsible for bringing down the World Trade Center were convinced they were right and your were wrong. They were so convinced of it, in fact, they were willing to die for their beliefs. And by doing so they have inspired a hoard of others to do likewise. Amongst the radical Islam group, suicide bomber seems to be an esteemed occupation. These people are convinced (about as convinced as can be) your religion is wrong and theirs is right. They have talked to God just as much as you have. Why is God telling them one thing and you another?
munc==
But America is also under siege by cultural fascists whose jihad is ultimately Marxism in the sheep's clothing of a holy environment and worshipful tolerance for anything and everything except traditional American values and Christianity. They are foundational atheists; their god's name is "NO GOD". Call it what you will; it is all nonetheless religion.
DB=
Wow, for someone who in a response to this very thread accuses atheistic arguments of being "ad homnem", "ridiculous", and "flawed", this has all the appearances of hypocrisy.
(1) ad hominem: "cultural fascist"; "jihad"; "ultimately Marxism";
(2) ridiculous and flawed: "ultimately Marxism in sheep's clothing of a holy environment and worshipful tolerance for anything and everything except for traditional American values and Christianity" & "Call it what you will, it is all nonetheless religion.
I am an atheist. I doubt if you find anyone significantly more atheistic than I am. Like most of my atheistic friends I would be perfectly happy if religion died. But you know what? I would be upset to see any laws passed against it. I don't want it to die by legislation. I want it to die by people coming to the realization that at its heart religion is a fundamentally ridiculous belief and that living one's life based on faith in something in which there is no evidence for is a poor way to live one's life.
Furthermore, for the most part I believe that traditional (REALLY traditional) American values are a good thing. However, I see these values as being (a) a respect for hard work, (b) valuing integrity, (c) freedom to believe in whatever one wants to believe without governmental proscription, and (d) the importance of the family. You seem to believe that it is a belief in your God that is a traditional American value. I do not think that a significant number of our founding fathers would agree with that.
I know quite a few atheists. However, to my knowledge I do not know a single Communist. Perhaps some of the atheists I know are Marxist, but if so I cannot vouch for it. I have few to no discussions with them on their economic beliefs. Most seem to be upright capitalists like me.
Finally, calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
munc==
Genuine faith is a personal revelation by the transcendent God of everything, maker of the universe and everything in heaven and earth. He calls all who will hear his voice and not harden their hearts against His revelation of Himself; His revelation is clear for all who will see it. He is not far from anyone of us regardless of our belief or rejection of Him.
DB=
Wrong ... see how easy it is to refute unsubstantiated assertion.
munc==
He is the eternal Spirit Who is the ultimate Source and Cause of everything. He is the only possible cause because only a spiritual entity can be infinite and eternal, without beginning or ending, from everlasting to everlasting. Those who reject Him postulate dead, inanimate and finite material (energy and matter) to be the source of everything from mind-breaking eternity past. Secularists/atheists cavalierly believe with no proof and circular logic that somehow tangibles like energy and matter can someway be eternal and infinite. Yet they refuse to consider, and thereby reject an intelligent Spirit Who is the infinite Source of everything. Instead, they put their fingers in their ears and scream "impossible" and "salve for the weak". They invent their own science and their own postulates that guaranty its proof, at least to their own way of thinking.
DB=
Wrong ... see how easy it is to refute unsubstantiated assertion.
But, let's take a closer look at the logic of what you say here.
"[God] is the only possible cause because only a spiritual entity can be infinite and eternal, without beginning or ending, from everlasting to everlasting"
This argument suffers from quite a few logical problems. (1) Non-sequtur #1 ... God is not the only possible cause. Perhaps the universe was created by some pimple-faced multidimensional high-school computer geek doing a simulation on his computer. He need be neither "infinite" or "eternal"; (2) Non-sequitur #2 ... Spiritual beings do not necessarily have to be infinite or eternal. In fact, if the universe is as you believe it to be, only God of all the spiritual beings in existence has those properties. (3) Special pleading ... While presented in a general form ("spiritual entity") it actually refers ONLY to God. (4) Excluding options by definition and circular reasoning ... God made the universe because by definition he and only he made the universe.
"Those who reject Him postulate dead, inanimate and finite material (energy and matter) to be the source of everything from mind-breaking eternity past."
Logical problems here: (1) Poisoning the well ... you attempt to make your opponents argument unpalatible by negative associations. The word "dead" implies something died. The matter that is part of this universe has never died. (2) Straw-man argument ... attempt to define your opponent's argument in a manner that is not really his. No philosophical naturalist (a person who believes that the material universe is all there is ... like me) knows what caused the initial expansion of the universe. There is no sufficiently well established theory that tells us. There are several options which seem plausible. One of which is that the universe was totally uncaused. It just happened. That is not significantly different from your idea, by the way. To get yours just replace "universe" with God and instead of saying "It just happened", say "God just happened to be there".
"Secularists/atheists cavalierly believe with no proof and circular logic that somehow tangibles like energy and matter can someway be eternal and infinite."
(1) Poison the well/ad hominem ... use of the term "cavalierly; (2) Irony-meter destruction argumentation ... use of the phrase "no proof and circular logic" to refer to your opponent's arguments. (3) Outright misrepresentation ... No atheist argues that energy an matter are infinite.
"Yet they refuse to consider, and thereby reject an intelligent Spirit Who is the infinite Source of everything."
(1) Outright misrepresentation ... ALL atheists I know have carefully considered whether or not an "intelligent Spirit" created the universe. It is because of this careful consideration we have concluded he doesn't. (2) Assuming the conclusion ... You are assuming God exists without providing an argument for it.
"Instead, they put their fingers in their ears and scream "impossible" and "salve for the weak". They invent their own science and their own postulates that guaranty its proof, at least to their own way of thinking."
(1) Ad hominem ... put fingers in ears and scream?? You need to listen to what your opponent says sometime. (2) Argument by silly assertion ... INVENT own science?
munc==
The reality is fascist jihadist of all stripes do not want this God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to exist because they don't want to face the judgement of the easy to recognize Creator/God. They have a dog in the fight; they don't want to bend a knee to any King Who is Holy and Who demands holiness to enter His presence. It is they who demand fealty and knees bowed before them and their religion of "anything goes except traditional values and Christianity", no matter how raunchy, depraved or sick. So they intellectualize their religious battle in the guise of "tolerance and diversity." The more honest among them will actually name their god and religion: "atheism".
DB=
Again this has all the fallacies of logic that you have portrayed up to this point. I don't think I need to go into them again in detail, do I? I'll ignore the multiple ad hominems here and comment on the substance.
(1) If as I suspect, you include Islam amongst your "fascist jihadists" then you ignoring the fact that the God of Islam IS the God of Abraham. You may believe that the characteristics they attribute to the God of Abraham is wrong, but the Q'ran talks of the same Abraham as does the Hebrew Bible (that would be Old Testament for you).
(2) Most atheists I know have read the bible and the God they see there is not one worthy of worship. He is capricious, hatefilled, and (if he did everything the Hebrew Bible says he did) the most evil entity imaginable. For example, he killed everybody except 8 people simply because in an election for God he would have only gotten those 8 votes and would have lost in a landslide to non-existent beings. So you are going to have to justify your comments on "God's holiness". You also need to watch who you are calling of believing in things that are "raunchy" "depraved" and "sick". Especially if you think God's behavior with respect to the Noachian flood as portrayed in the bible is somehow righteous.
(3) I have already addressed your comments concerning "guise of tolerance and diversity" and atheism as a religion.
munc==
The Psalmist said: "Only the fool says there is no God".
DB=
Come on ... You can do better than that. Give proper and full attribution. It is Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1. It was a BIG hit. So big, in fact, the bible thought it deserved repeating. The two psalms are almost identical. One curious thing though, ... notice how the psalms are attributed David. They make no sense if this is true. Both psalms refer to Israel being restored. But in David's time (circa 1000 BCE) Israel was on the rise. It only makes sense if it was written after either the fall of the 10 northern tribes (circa 720 BCE) or during the exilic period for the Jews (586 to about 539 BCE), about 280 to 460 years after David. How do you account for that in your perfect bible?
I suppose I could quote Matthew 5:22 and say you are in danger of hell-fire, but I suppose that you would argue that it is the bible, not you who is calling atheists fools. You probably actually believe it too.
munc==
Also remember the words of the wisest of God's creation, Solomon, the writer of Proverbs: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".
DB=
That would be Proverbs 1:7. But you missed it a little. The verse actually says: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction"
You DO know that not a single proverb can be reliably traced to Solomon, don't you? Furthermore, if Solomon was so damned wise then why is it that even after God himself told him that all he had to do was follow in His ways, that Solomon disobeyed (see 1 Kings 11). He started to worship Astarte the goddess of the Sidonians. Pretty stupid, don't you think. Especially if Astarte didn't really exist and God did.
This disobeyal caused God to revoke his promise that he had made to Abraham, Issac, and David concerning their lands. If you believe the bible, it allowed the Israelites to be defeated by the Assyrians and the 10 northern tribes to be taken into captivity and be lost to humanity. It allowed the Babylonians to conquer the two remaining southern tribes and the Jews to be sent into exile. Of course this happened long after Solomon (the person who actually disobeyed) was dead. The only people who were actually punished for Solomon's sins were people who were not alive at the time and therefore innocent. How do you rationalize this as being an act of a merciful and just God?
munc==
Thus, according to the Old Testament, atheists are fools and who lack wisdom.
DB=
According to atheists the Hebrew Bible (aka Old Testament to Christians) is a book written by an ancient people holding no claim to authority other than for the fact that it is old.
munc==
There is only one solution. There is no hope except an appeal to Jesus Christ; ...the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created... He loves fools who lack wisdom. He says to all people who will hear:
"Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
DB=
Hmm... I think living one's life by reason is a better option.
munc==
Jesus came to reveal God's mercy and grace to a world lost in sin.
DB=
And he revealed this mercy, how? By getting himself beaten, nailed to a cross, and dying of dehydration?? This shows God's mercy, how? Jesus died for our sins?? How so? None of us had sinned at the time. It makes as much sense as someone who did nothing having himself tortured and executed on the condition that any of his future descendants would be let off for any crimes they may commit in the future.
How did Jesus's dying do anything in reality? To put it another way, how did Jesus's death allow God to do something that he was otherwise incapable of doing?
Finally is it REALLY merciful to condemn someone to an eternity of burning in fire for simply not believing in the existence of something that never actually shows itself ... especially when the reason most often given for that thing never showing itself is because of the respect it has for free-will? You have the free-will to NOT believe and that is all-important, however, if you actually use it ... you are going to fry. and continue to do so forever.
munc==
He came as the Savior of the world, because God wants none to perish but all to come to eternal life.
DB=
Again, what did Jesus actually do that allowed God to do something he couldn't have done otherwise? If God REALLY doesn't want anyone to perish then why not present a convincing argument for his existence? Show evidence that only could have come from him. Instead of curing cancer, a disease that we know undergoes spontaneous remission, why not grow back a person's amputated limb? Or even better yet, everyone's amputated limb on a VA hospital ward?
munc==
For God so loved the world that He sent His one and only son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but receive eternal life. Jesus did not come to condemn the world but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
DB=
Yeah, now there's a lucid argument.
munc==
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.
DB=
Er ... That's nice. You DO know that Isaiah was talking about his own son and NOT Jesus, don't you? Isaiah was a prophet around the time the Assyrians were threatening the Israelites. The kingdom was divided into the North (Israel proper) and the South (Judah). The kings of each respective land ask Isaiah for a sign. In Isaiah 7 he says that a young woman (the Hebrew word is "almah" [young woman] not "bethulah" [virgin) will bear a son who will be called Immanuel. In Isaiah 8 he refers to his own son as being Immanuel. Your quote from Isaiah 9 refers to him. Even the lines you quote say that this person will reign over the throne of DAVID. That would be in Jerusalem. Jesus never reigned a day there. Finally, it would make absolutely NO SENSE for Isaiah to be telling people of the eighth century BCE not to fear because 750 years from them someone would be born who would be their savior.
munc==
John 21:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
DB==
This is one of the reasons I am not thrilled by the purported teachings of Jesus. Jesus is saying that it is a good thing to believe in something you have no evidence for. Con artists LIVE for (and ON) just this kind of person. I believe Paul had it right when he said "Test everything, Hold on to the good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21).
munc==
Many Christians become angry at the secularist who demand their sacraments of abortion and "anything goes" sexuality, and their attacks on traditional America and her foundations of Biblically based faith. But at Christmas time it is the season to remember our Lord's humility, mercy and grace. He said "blessed are the peace-makers". My prayer is that honest people of good will and good faith will consider Jesus and His work to save all from condemnation.
DB=
(1) Who exactly thinks of abortion as a "sacrament"? Another fallacious "poison the well" argument. Abortion is going to be a painful decision for anyone who elects it. It is a decision that is between a woman and her doctor. It is not one for you to make for others.
(2) We happen to vastly differ on what we see as "traditional America". I see it as respect and encouragement for independent thought. In my opinion THAT is what has made this country great.
(3) I do not think our values ARE biblically based. None of the bill of rights, for instance, comes from the bible explicitly. Nowhere in the bible does it say that we have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In fact the bible sees slavery as a natural thing. Our constitution says we can worship as we want. This is explicitly anti-bible. There is no constitutional command to keep the Sabbath holy. There is nothing about making graven images. In fact some of the things we hold most dear ... Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Memorials along with Mt. Rushmore ... ARE graven images. No society says that it is a good thing to ignore your parents (Although Jesus seems to imply it is [Luke 14:26]). No society says it is a good thing to murder, steal, or lie. Furthermore, in the bible are a LOT of immoral and cruel things performed by God himself, and by people the bible holds out as role models. Examples include God's commandments to kill the Caananites to get the land they were living on, Moses stoning a man for gathering firewood on the Sabbath, Abraham willingness to sacrifice Issac, David sending Uriah to the battlefront to have him killed so he could then marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba, Jesus's magically killing a fig tree that wasn't bearing fruit out of season just to make a point.
munc==
Or to sum all of the above up in a few sweet words:
MERRY CHRISTMAS! Jesus loves you.
DB==
Or even better ...
MERRY CHRISTMAS (a holiday originally derived from the pagan celebration, Saturnalia)! Reason works.
Regards,
Darwin's Beagle
I couldn't have said it better myself!!!