-This is a conversation that I've been having with ProU member, chillbill. It's an extension of the debate that surrounded the recent poll. I thought it was only right to translate these writings into a blog, because although it was interesting, it was uber-long. My response concludes chillbill's reaction to "There Is No Debate. (A new angle)"
chillbill:
"socialism and utter collectivism is the sole route for clean, sensible energy generation"
Can you list two 'problems' socialism has actually solved while not creating a worse mess than existed before the 'solution'?
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"we need clean, renewable technologies to flood the marketplace"
...and those are...?
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Consider the socialist eccological record:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&suggon=0&safe=off&q=socialist+ecologi...
http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=1909
The problem is too much government power, which is the result of socialism because it gives that power to the government, not the people. Individual freedom is inherent in capitalism, which is economic freedom by definition.
You are mistaking our current corporatism for capitalism. We need to strip the government and corporations of ANY power that exceeds the power or rights of the individual.
Individuals are capable of responsibility, groups are not.
Green Underbelly: You may have had the idea that I was advocating socialist environmentalism. If that's true, you read my post incorrectly.
And after reading yer energy diatribe at the poll, and the following:
we need clean, renewable technologies to flood the marketplace"
...and those are...?
I came to only one conclusion: we can't develop any form of energy, and it's senseless to weigh the costs and benefits of each form. I'm part of the small is beautiful crowd, but saying we're all unrealistic with a statement like, "The NO-impact alternative just is not within our grasp....YET!" strikes me as insane.
Now is that the logical reaction you wanted from readers? That we shouldn't weigh the costs of say, wind and solar against coal and natural gas? AND I REALIZE WHAT YOU'RE STRESSING--THAT PEOPLE HEAR 'CLEAN', THEY HEAR 'GREEN', AND THEY'RE FOOLED INTO ADULATION OF THOSE ENERGY SOURCES.
Why can't people extend that idea by holding those energy forms under the light and finding out which energy form(s) is the most sustainable, or the closest to being technologically sustainable. We both know that humans will have an impact. It's not constructive to say we do not.
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Individuals are capable of responsibility, groups are not.
See Native American Indians.
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"But if the profit motive is the primary cause of pollution, one would not expect to find much pollution in socialist countries, such as the former Soviet Union, China, and in the former Communist countries of Eastern and Central Europe. That is, in theory. In reality exactly the opposite is true: The socialist world suffers from the worst pollution on earth. Could it be that free enterprise is not so incompatible with environmental protection after all?"
No one is arguing that socialism=groovy responsive environmentalism. No one is arguing that we should replicate other countries who have a poor track record when it comes to pollution. Have you heard of a system called 'a caring economics'? (http://www.quantumshift.tv/v/1188603177/)
You know, the system that counts externalities as part of GDP; it seems to me a system most likely to motivate positive production and discard 'negative' profit. This new system represents a very beautiful dream.
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zeitgeistmovie.com
If you have 2 hours of time to spare to watch a good documentary try this one out
I've known about that film for a while, but only gotten about 10 minutes into it due to busyness and whatnot. Maybe now I'll have time to give it a plug. What do you dig about it?
Every organism's heartbeat holds a universe of beauty at http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/green-underbelly
I think what sparked me to it was the research government employees put into this doc. I thought a lot about those who died sept. 11 and always wondered how that came about because we were letting these Afghanistans off the hook... Like when you see the towers fall one after the other then this tower that is not even close to them collapse just the same. It looked like a demolishen accomplishment and I think the government was in on the whole thing. It explains why it happened too... I also don't have a specific religion and in the beginning of the video it shows how Christianity might have started and that was pretty cool. Overall it just was a revealing documentary and it frightened me. My soc. Prof. Henrickson was describing to our class alot about what is going on behind the scenes and I always thought that she was one of those who thrived off of conspiracy theories... I truly don't care about those theories but this doc. convinces me in what I though truly happened to our people. Take it as you want though, I mean this like anything else could be a load of crap but they do state their assumptions pretty loud and clear.
Have you done yer own research on the subject?
Every organism's heartbeat holds a universe of beauty at http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/green-underbelly
Happy Earth day!
What a day it's been! Just got out of my SAVErecycles school club.
"I understand that this car is pretty expensive but it has more to it than any Ferrari can give to our earth and people." -- crystalcraze13, a ProU blogger
"Native American Indians."
Pretty much the same as any other primitive hunter gatherer society in human history. What is your point?
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"I came to only one conclusion: we can't develop any form of energy,"
Too defeatist for me. Perfection, like the Mr. Fusion, is beyond our grasp only presently. Look back over only this century’s history developing clean energy and the trend is clearly moving closer to the ideal. Even burning coal has come more than halfway toward clean. The future is very much better than the past unless we allow some political insanity to stop the trends already in place.
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"You may have had the idea that I was advocating socialist environmentalism. If that's true, you read my post incorrectly."
Can you be clearer in exactly what you advocate? I like the goals you have set I am a more 'nuts and bolts' type of guy. Technical details captivate me, I'm easy to amuse.
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'A caring economics'
Reading as much as was available online about this delayed my response. Frankly, I'm less than impressed. Utopian theorists have been in and out of vogue for quite some time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia
Like since writing was invented, and this type theory was told around the camp fire before that. Nice ideas all, but the rubber never hits the road, or if it does as in Marxism, then millions suffer from the disconnect with reality.
Think about what she says. We should leave a culture of domination or subjugation. The reason that the ideal old world cultures she thinks existed in the past exist no more is they ran into a dominant culture and were dominated by it. Cold hard relentless force rules. Always has, always will. This is still very obvious in most of the world, but in the USA we are partially sheltered from it if we are middle class and above. Non-violence is popular, and very nice, but just ask the people in Ruby Ridge, or Waco, and recently the polygamists in Texas if gangs of 'Jack booted thugs' are not lying in wait to deal with even mild cultural variance.
Her next point that GDP does not reflect 'caring economic activities' like child care is just as unrealistic. It does count it if you pay for it just like anything else. Caring has nothing to do with it transaction of money does. When a daycare or pre-school changes a diaper, or gives a hug it is economic activity. When mommy does it for free it is not.
I have not read any of her books, so maybe there is something of value in her proposal, but I just fail to see it from free sources. How does this system add a bite of food to a hungry persons' plate?
"A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets."
-Arthur C. Clarke
Rest in peace
yourfuneralguy
http://www.lowercostfuneral.com/rbrianblog
Solutions in the USA come about slowly, but they do happen.
And it usually comes from unexpected places.
Limited Socialism is everywhere....some good and some bad.
Coal is half cleaned which is progress.
Progress in Energy will come!