The last few days we've spent the hour in my western civilization class, which I hate, discussing the religions and philosophies of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia. As much as I hate the class, we were talking about something today that really caught my interest: are the gods perpetually just?
We've been reading The Epic of Gilgamesh in which Gilgamesh turns down the goddess Ishtar in marriage and publicly talking about all her scorned lovers. As retaliation she gets her father to send down the bull of heaven to punish Gilgamesh, but with the help of his friend Enkidu, the two men slay the bull. Ishtar is furious and kills Enkidu even though it was Gilgamesh that should have been punished.
This led to a very interesting discussion about whether or not the gods were right in their actions. I personally feel they were. Think about it, Gilgamesh proves Ishtar unworthy so she sends the bull to prove his worth. Then he slays the bull taking something precious from the gods, so they take his friend in retribution.
But, I think there is a bigger problem in trying to define the justice of the gods, how do we define justice? Sure each individual has their own opinion, but we also have a definition for our times and our country. That is different than what the ancient Egyptians or Mesopotamians would have thought. Moreover, it is different than what countries across the nation today think of as just. And this made me think, with this difference how can we, as a country, try to change another nation because of our definition of just?
We are fighting in Iraq, we have problems with Iran and Afghanistan, and we just sent troops to Pakistan. All of these nations have a cultural difference from us and view justice differently. So, who are we to tell them they're wrong? Not that I think any of the problems with these countries are okay, they're not, but I think the United States needs to re-evaluate what justice really is.
Historical Justice?
By vern - Posted on September 12th, 2008
I think part of the problem is, as you stated, the cultural differences. Not only are those cultural differences apparent in how we view justice, but in how the justice system is designed in a given country. Justice systems tend to be designed to meet cultural expectation of justice and it adapts as cultural views change. United Statesians (sorry, had to use that one at least once in my life) tend to think that since our system works for us, it will work for everyone else. That's not at all true. Even those who are similar to us in belief often have incredibly different systems and would find our system not at all useful in their particular societies.
Our system borrowed pieces and parts from many other systems to find what works for us. It's hypocritical, to me, to not give other countries that same leeway to find what works for them. Our system isn't near perfect either and much of what we view as perfectly acceptable others find absolutely abhorrent. Should we, then, change our system to become more acceptable to them at the risk of that system no longer working for us? Of course not, so why should we expect others to do so?
We're never going to agree in all things. It's always going to bug us that women are treated more harshly by justice systems in some countries, that corporal punishment is used in others, and that probation or suspended sentences are used more often than not in yet others... that's how cultural and societal views work and is a big part of what justice is. There is no universal measure of justice. What works for one area isn't going to work for another. To expect that it will and demand that it does disregards that very basic tenant and risks becoming something altogether different from justice. That, to me, is infinitely more unacceptable than some of the oddities or cruelties we find in other systems.
And psst! You said "Moreover, it is different than what countries across the nation today think of as just. " I think you meant countries of the world :)
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Like writing? So do we!
~Fallon~
"If I fall asleep with a pen in my hand, don't remove it - I might be writing in my dreams."- Pace
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You sound like Plato. His book, The Republic, attempts to answer that exact question.
Plato eventually, and somewhat controversially, concludes that justice is defined as a person faithfully remaining in his place. That is, he righteously does what he was born to do, and only that. I think many of us today would disagree with this notion of predetermined social status (it sounds too much like a caste system), but I think it has its merits: we do what we're supposed to do. It seems almost overly simple.
Is America supposed to force order and democracy upon the world? I don't know about that, but we are certainly supposed to protect ourselves and eliminate our evil enemies, i.e., terrorists. But then again, Iraqis aren't terrorists. Neither is the Pakistani or even Afghani government (not anymore, anyway). Al-Qaeda harbors the terrorists, and al-Qaeda operates in these countries. The question is, is it right for America to disrupt these countries in our rightful pursuit of our deadly enemies? It really is a complicated question.
I would also personally argue that justice is in fact absolute. Cultural and geographic differences are no excuse to do injustice upon another. I recognize that there are problems with this approach, though. After all, whose idea of absolute justice is the world supposed to follow?
Good post, it was quite philosophical.
Funny you should mention that, I actually got assigned to do a report on The Republic for that same class. But not until October. I'll post that once it's written.
But thank you for the comments. I think that you pose a good question. And like I said, I don't agree with the problems the middle east is causing, but I think to some extent parts of it are just to their cultures.
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Do you find it odd that you are not as strong as you once thought?
People want to say they are right and that is how it is. They don't want to be open minded to other cultures or religions because they feel their religion is the correct one. This of course is not true because who is really to say something is right or wrong? I think this is the issue as well. In sociology we were learning about how people stereotype other people. For example guys with long hair are musicians, or smoke cigs. Then you start to believe it so much that all you see are long haired guys who smoke cigs, and not the ones with long hair who don't.
I think I just made a valid point.haha. Good blog though.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am voting for Lewis Black.
DrifterDani~
the idea that the justice of the gods is somehow beyond human undertstanding.
"when you hold a pen, you are at war" Attributed to Voltaire