What is Wicca?

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I’ve mentioned Wicca a lot in my post because well, I’m Wiccan. But I was thinking the other day about what my first thoughts were about Wicca when I first heard about it and I thought that a lot of people here on Progressive U might be thinking some of the same things that I did when I didn’t know anything about it other than what I’ve heard here and there. So, I figure that I should set the record straight as much as I can by explaining what Wicca is, what we do, and what we don’t do. There’s a lot more to Wicca than what’s written here in this blog, so please, if you have any questions, either ask me and I will get an answer for you or hit the Internet.

I would like to start off by saying that nothing mention below is said to be the “truth” or the “only way” by me or by Wiccans alike. We believe that spirituality is something that’s supposed to be personal to each and every person, so with that said, we know that Wicca isn’t for everyone nor do we ever claim that it should be. Our spirituality is filled with myth and lore, but we know and accept that fact. We enjoy the myths and stories and we hold those dear to our hearts. They help us to be more spiritual and that’s what it’s all about. Believe in the tooth fairy and fairies all you want if that’s what does it for you spirituality. We believe that as long as you’re not pushing your beliefs, hurting yourself or others, then it’s all good.

Wicca is a spirituality practice that falls under the umbrella of Neo-Paganism. I say “Neo” because it really wouldn’t be correct to claim that we are Pagans (without the Neo). Pagans would be those people who actually practiced the ancient Pagan religions. Sometimes in normal conversation, many Neo-Pagans will leave off the Neo, but most know that the correct way to refer to ourselves is to include the “Neo”. Neo means “New”, so to say that Wicca is a “new” religious movement, would be absolutely correct. No matter what others may tell you, Wicca is new. A lot of people (Wiccans) will say that Wicca is ancient, but either they are badly mistaken, or what they really mean is that Wicca is a spirituality practice that includes ancient Pagan “practices”. The religion itself was started in the 50’s by a man of the name of Gerald Gardner and he is definitely not ancient.

Gardner was a British civil servant who is credited with bringing back what he called “a survival of an old Witchcraft religion” and what he called Wicca. Gardner had been practicing for a long time, but wasn’t able to bring Wicca to surface until the European Witchcraft Act was repealed in 1951. Yes, there were actual Acts against the practice of Witchcraft that started in the early 1401’s and lasted through 1951. Once the Act was repealed in 1951, this finally opened the door (legally) for Gardner to publish books (that he had been writing for many years) and practice Wicca openly without the fear of legal prosecution.

Wicca is an earth-based spirituality practice that honors a God and a Goddess, the earth, the elements, and everything that makes up our universe. The elements that I refer to are earth, air, fire, water, and of course…spirit. Each element represents either the God or Goddess and directions. For instance; Earth and Water represent North, West, and the Goddess, where Fire and Air represent South, East, and the God. Depending on the tradition of Wicca, these can sometimes be different. Wicca was definitely styled with the influence of late Victorian era occultism and the spiritual aspect was inspired by ancient Pagan faiths. The spiritual aspect is also heavily influenced by Buddhism and Hinduism.

Wicca could probably be most closely compared to Native American spirituality more than any other in America. Wicca is made up of a variety of Witchcraft / magickal practices and concepts. Most Wiccans refer to themselves as Witches. Not all forms of Witchcraft necessarily fall under Wicca. There are many Witches out there that do not claim the Wicca religion. So just like the saying that “all Wiccans are Pagans, but not all Pagans are Wiccans”…you could also say that “all Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccan”. The best way to explain the difference between Witchcraft and Wicca is that Wicca is the actual religion and Witchcraft is the practice of the religion. And a Witch can be defined as “one who practices Witchcraft”.

The word “Wicca “before modernized was originally “Wica” and was used by Gardner to refer to the adherents of his tradition of Witchcraft, not the actual religion. Wica seemed to have origins with an Old English word Wicca, which meant “male witch” or “wizard” and seemed to predate the modern English version of the word “Witch”. The exact origins of the words Wicca, Wiccan (plural), Wicce (female), and Wiccecraft (Witchcraft) are really unknown. There are numerous theories of their true meanings and probably the most common or most used meaning of the word “Wicca” is “craft of the wise”.

Wicca has no central authority, nor does it contain a canonized doctrine that everyone follows. There are tons of books out there on Wicca, but they really only serve as guides. Typically, the main principles of Wicca are shared , but at the end of the day, spirituality is something that should be personal to you; therefore many Wiccans have many different ways in which they worship.

Wiccans generally don’t proselytize. When dealing with covens (a gathering of Witches) and whatnot, it has been known for covens to even turn people away. This is a religion of the heart and is many times highly discouraged for anyone under the age of 18 to be officially involved. This happens because many Wiccan groups or covens want people who are of the age to make the decision for themselves as to what they want in life, especially when it comes to their spirituality. This doesn’t mean that those under 18 aren’t allowed to practice Wicca, but as far as a coven goes, usually the rule is 18 or older.

Eclectic Wicca is probably the most popular form of Wicca right now. It combines the basic principles of Wicca with numerous traditions within Wicca and with other practices that fall under the Neo-Paganism umbrella. I consider myself to be Eclectic. The main reason that most people like this is for the simple fact that being Eclectic allows you to practice in any way, shape, or form that you want. Again, the principles are usually the same, but that’s basically it. Anything else that you want to add or take away is up to you.

To Wiccans, Deity is usually considered “The Source”, “The All”, “The One”, etc… Deity is really unknowable, but Wiccans are able to see and realized that Deity isn’t just male or female, but both. This is where the worship of the God and Goddess comes in. The God and Goddess are normally seen as primal beings who are the source of everything, yet they are also considered to be familiar in such a way that they are there for you on a personal level. They are usually seen as complementary of each other (male and female). The God and Goddess can be seen and worshipped in many different ways and in a room full of fifty Wiccans, you could probably get just as many different ways in which they choose to worship the God and Goddess.

Some Wiccans believe in the monotheist belief that there is only one Deity. Others may subscribe to the Polytheist belief that there are multiple Deities (Gods and Goddesses). There are also Wiccans who believe in a Pantheist belief systems, which states that all things created in the universe equals Deity. Many also believe in an Animist belief, which states that all things created (animate and inanimate) are filled with the Divine and/or has a soul. And many believe in a combination of two or more of the beliefs above. Although many believe in one Deity, they will break down Deity into multiple Gods and/or Goddesses. This is done to make interaction with Deity easier and on a more personal level. To me this is no different that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aspect of Christianity. You can’t communicate with “God” directly, so that’s what Jesus is there for. Jesus was created to give people someone who they could relate and talk to. There’s also Pantheons. Pantheons are collections of Deities, such as the Roman or Greek Gods / Goddesses that many Wiccans and Pagans call to in order to have their prayers answered on an even more personal level. (Example: The Titans or The Olympians)

The bottom line is that no matter what way a Wiccan chooses to worship Deity (God and Goddess), they are still ultimately only worshipping One Force. Everything that I mentioned above (Pantheons, Gods, Goddesses, etc…) are only aspects of the “One”. This can be hard for some to grasp, so I like to use the diamond analogy. If you look closely at a diamond, you will see that the diamond has many different facets to it. Those facets together make the diamond whole. This is just like how Wiccans look at Deity. Deity is the whole diamond, but in order to be on a more personal level with Deity, many Wiccans only focus on either one or a small handful of the facets.

The primal God and Goddess are viewed very similarly by many Wiccans. The God is usually viewed as a Horned God (not the devil) of hunting, magick, and death and is the ruler of the underworld (also know as the lower or otherworld). The Sun is a symbol of the God to Wiccans and many Pagans alike. The God takes on different roles throughout the year, as does the Goddess. The God is known to have three aspects to his life (trinity). The first is the Page, which is when the God is said to be in his young and courting stage of life. The second is called the Father, which is when the God is in his caring and fatherly stage. The last aspect of the God is called the Sage, which is when the God is said to be most powerful and wise.

The Goddess is usually view as Mother Earth and the Eternal Virgin who gives birth to the God (who brings life to everything) every year at Yule (22 Dec / Winter Solstice (sound familiar?) The Moon is the symbol for the Goddess for Wiccans and many Pagans alike. The Goddess is also known to have three aspects (trinity). The Maiden is the first aspect, which is when the Goddess is said to be in her young and courting stage of life. The Mother is the second aspect, which is when the Goddess is carrying the seeds (the God) that will eventually be born and bring life to the earth again. And finally, the Crone is the third aspect and this is when the Goddess is said to be most powerful and wise.

Wiccans don’t view the God or Goddess as being more important than the other, but the Goddess is seen as pre-eminent since everything is of her, but the God is the “Spark of Life”, her lover, and the child that is born of her every year, so one cannot survive without the other.

The most famous symbol of Wicca is known as the pentacle, which is a five-pointed star (top spire facing upwards) with a circle around it. There are many different explanations on what the symbol stands for, so I will give you the one that I like to use. The area inside each point of the star represents one of the four elements, with the top point representing spirit. The circle around the star represents the circle of life and infinity. Kind of how a wedding band is symbolic of never ending love, the circle around the star is kind of the same thing. In some traditions, once you reach a certain point in your training, your pentacle is turned upside down. This has nothing to do with the devil or anything like that. It’s supposed to be symbolic of a time when a person is looking inward and exploring their inner self. Eventually the pentacle will be turned right side up again (where spirit belongs). This is only done by certain traditions of Wicca.

The Wiccan Rede is basically our code of ethics and morality. There are different versions of the Rede, some short and some long, but no matter which version you read, you will always find eight words which are the heart of our faith. “An ye harm none, do what thy will.” Really no different than the “Golden Rule” or any other code of ethics and morality from any particular religion. The origin of the Rede is not really known, but now it seems to be a part of Wicca that will be with it forever.

There’s also a Law of Threefold Return that many if not most Wiccans believe in. The Law of Three is basically like Karma. The belief that what you do comes back times three really isn’t the point. The point is that, whatever you do in life (physically, mentally, or on a spiritual level) will eventually come back to you in some way, shape, or form, whether it be positive or negative. This is where the Law of Attraction comes in to play as well. Many Wiccans also follow a set of eight virtues; and those virtues are: mirth, reverence, honour, humility, strength, beauty, power, and compassion.

So what about magic? Well for starters, many Wiccans use the spelling magick (with a “K”) to show the difference in the magick that Wiccans perform and the magic that you might see on stage at some show in Vegas. Magick and spells are used by Witches all the time, but to tell you the truth, everybody uses magick and cast spells…even Christians. Other people just call it something different. Spells are basically the same thing as a prayer. Christians pray for healing and Wiccans do too, but sometimes we do some extra things. These things can be called magick and/or spellwork.

A very simple spell that one may use, would be for healing. I would venture to say that a great percentage of our spellwork is done for healing. So, a healing spell might look / sound something like this. First, I take a candle that is the right color (different colors represent and mean different things). I might use some essential oil to “dress” the candle in (basically put oil on the candle). The oil used would also have healing properties. Ok, so far I have a blue candle and I’m using peppermint essential oil to dress the candle. Then I might spread some actual peppermint herbs on a plate and roll the candle in the herbs. Again, herbs have different qualities about them and peppermint is known for it’s healing properties. Now that the candle is dressed in oil and herbs, I will place it somewhere safe (alter or wherever you want). I like to have a picture of the person that I’m sending the healing energy to on my alter. This helps to focus on that person. Then I sit down, light the candle, and pray or meditate on seeing that person well again. So, it’s really not all about potions and puffs of smoke like you see in the movies. It is usually a very well thought out process and almost 100% of the time is accomplished for the benefit of others. One thing that I must mention is that the rule for performing magick and spells on other people requires that person’s permission. Maybe the person that I want to see healed, doesn’t want to be healed. Then I would be messing with someones free will and that is against what Wicca is all about. So no, we don’t do hexes on people and negative things like that. Everything we do is usually for the greater good.

The term Wicca use to be reserved only for those who were initiates of one of the traditional branches of Wicca (Gardnerian or Alexandrian), but today it is more accepted for even those who don’t belong to a coven at all to call themselves Wiccan. These practitioners are called solitary practitioners. I actually prefer the solitary route as opposed to the others. The others come with dogmas that I might not like, so being an eclectic solitaire is the way to go for me and many, many others.

Even though I’m an Eclectic Witch, I have still found time to enroll in a traditional Witch School. Many traditions have a three degree system that people can follow. The first degree is usually to earn the title of Witch or to gain membership into a coven. The second degree is usually setup to earn the title of High Priest or Priestess. The third degree is usually reserved for clergy only. But again, you do not have to go through these steps to call yourself a Witch. These are just very formal ways of earning degrees and becoming extremely educated in the ways of Wicca.

Many Wiccans enjoy the Ritual aspect that comes with the territory of being a Wiccan. Again, not all Wiccans do ritual, but most do. A ritual can be very elaborate or it can be very simple. It can be a few candles setup on a table or the use of an alter with tools that represent the elements, symbols that represent the God and Goddess, etc… Rituals are usually performed to celebrate the Sabbats, Esbats, to perform Magick, or sometimes just for meditation. The God, Goddess, and the Guardians of the four elements are usually called in to be present during a typical ritual. A sacred circle is cast during most if not all rituals, which is basically creating a sacred place to worship, just like what a church is except Wiccans can create sacred space any where and any time.

During a ritual, one might choose to have tools present to represent different things. Some of these tools are; the Athame, which is a dagger that is never used to cut anything. The Athame is usually used to cast the sacred circle. It represents the God (phallic symbol), the element of Fire, and South. The Wand is also a very popular tool that you may find on a Wiccan’s alter. The Wand also represents the God (again a phallic symbol), the element of Air, and East. The properties of the Wand and Athame are sometimes opposite depending on the person or the tradition. Next you might find a Chalice or something that holds water. This tool will be used to represent the Goddess, the element of Water, and West. You may also find crystals on an alter that are there to represent the Goddess, the element of Earth, and North. The pentacle can also be used to represent the Earth, but is also used to represent the Spirit. These are just a few tools out of the many different kinds that may be found on an alter. Nothing stated above is set in stone either. Some people like to use the tools mentioned above for South as the tools for the North. It’s all about personal preference.

So what do Wiccan’s wear during their rituals? This ties into one of the myths about Wicca, in that we do everything in the nude or “Skyclad”. This couldn’t be further from the truth. I would say that most Wiccans out there do not do their rituals in the nude, especially those who are in covens. Some traditions of Wicca are more known for going Skyclad during ritual, but it’s pretty rare among most. Many Wiccans choose to wear robes, many just wear street clothes, and some even wear renaissance like attire. There isn’t a set way to dress or “undress” in a Wiccan ritual. Again, it’s all about the tradition and/or the persons involved.

As mentioned above, Wiccans usually perform rituals when they celebrate the Sabbats. There are eight Sabbats that Wiccan celebrate and these eight Sabbats make up what is called the Wheel of the Year. The Wheel of the Year follows the cycles of the Sun. The Sabbats are: Samhain, which is on Oct 31st and is a time when we celebrate death, remember our lost loved ones, and ancestors. Samhain is the most sacred Sabbat in the Wheel of the Year and it is also known as the Witch’s new year. The next Sabbat is called Yule. Yule is the Winter Solstice and is celebrated around the 21st of Dec. This is the shortest day and longest night and is when we celebrate the “birth of the Sun” because after Yule, the days begin to increase in length again. This gives everyone hope that the earth will once again warm up and provide for us like she always has before. Next is Imbolc, which is celebrated on Feb 1st. This Celebration has also been called Candlemass and is a time when we celebrate the coming of Spring. After Imbolc is Ostara. Ostara is celebrated around 21 March and is the Spring Equinox. This is when day and night are once again equal and the day light hours once again last longer than the night hours. Ostara is a celebration of the beginning of spring, fertility and rebirth. The earth is now in full bloom and the signs off life renewed are everywhere. Next is Beltane. Beltane is the second most sacred of Sabbats second only to Samhain. Beltane is a celebration of fertility. This is when the God and Goddess are said to join as one when the perform the sacred rite (otherwise known as sex). After Beltane, we move into Midsummer. Midsummer is celebrated around June 21st. Midsummer is the Summer Solstice and is the longest day and shortest night. After midsummer, the days begin to shorten again. Next is Lughnasadh, which is celebrated on August 1st. Lughnasadh is celebrated as the first harvest or the beginning of the harvest season. We then move into Mabon, which is celebrated around 22 September and is the Autumn Equinox. Again, day and night are equal on this day and after the Equinox, the days will again be shorter than the nights. And finally we end back at Samhain where it all began. To learn more about the Sabbats, you can look on the internet and find all kinds of information on each and every one of them.

Esbats are a bit different than Sabbats. Esbats mark and celebrate the full moons. Rituals are conducted during these times as well. There are many different celebrations of the moon, but the full moon celebrations are probably the most popular. Waxing, waning, new, and dark moons are also celebrated. It all depends on your magickal purpose as to which moon you want to “use” or celebrate.

Another ceremony that you might hear about or witness in the Wiccan community is called Handfasting. Handfastings have been around a lot longer than Wicca has been around, but they are very popular among the Wiccan folk. A Handfasting is basically a wedding ceremony. This ceremony is a trial marriage though and it last for a year and a day. This ceremony can also be referred to as “bondings”, “joinings”, or “eclipses”. Some Wiccans and/or Pagans use the Handfasting ceremony as their actual wedding instead of a trial marriage. Again, personal preference is what it’s all about.

There’s also a ceremony called a Wiccaning, which is basically like a Christening that is performed on an infant. The purpose of the Wiccaning is to present the infant to the God and Goddess. This is done more for protection than it is for anything else. This procedure does not “make” the child a Wiccan. It is just done for protection. Most if not all Wiccan children are encouraged to use the free will that has been given to them, even if that means they end up not choosing the Wiccan path later in life. Children are not expect to make a decision on what path they want to follow until much later in life.

There are many different traditions that fall under Wicca. Some of them are: Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Dianic (Feminists Wicca), Seax, Correllian, Blue Star, Faery, Kemetic, and Obyssean just to name a few.

Wicca and the afterlife. Most Wiccans believe in reincarnation in place of going to heaven or hell once you die. This makes a lot of sense to a lot of us, but might not work for everyone.

There are many different myths that surround Wicca and I would like to take up a few lines here to dispel as many myths that I can think of that haven’t been mentioned already above.

Is Wicca Satanism? Well that depends on who you ask. Wiccans all know that Wicca isn’t any where close to Satanism, but if you ask a Christian, they might say it is because to Christians who truly follow the bible; any religion outside of Christianity is of the devil. So again, it all depends on who you ask. Wiccans do not believe in the devil. Satan is a Christian creation and has nothing to do with Wicca. Many Wiccans don’t even believe in “evil”, but that’s a whole separate story. Satan and Witchcraft were linked together by the Christian Church during the “Burning Times” of the late Middle Ages and Renaissance. They continue to be linked together due to the fact that the church won’t correct its mistakes of the past.

Witches can be male and female. Over the ages, Witches have always been described as female, but this isn’t the case at all. Many say that male Witches are called “Warlocks”, but again this is false. A Warlock is said to be a Witch (male or female) who has betrayed the principles of Wicca or who betrayed his/her coven. The image of the Witch that you know today (female, old, ugly, green hag who rides around on a broom) are images created by the Church. Movies still use images such as these not knowing or not caring that they are offending an entire religion.

Tabias-

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Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

*applause* Well done. Very good explination.

I don't need drugs - I have genetics.

tabias's picture

I tried to include as much as possible.

Tabias-

Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

It seems to me like you could go into a whole series about it. There's a lot of information here, and you barely scratched the surface of the Wiccan religion.

For example, you mentioned the Virtues, but didn't go into any detail about them. That could be worth elaborating on at some time.

Good blog, I hope more see this. :)

-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

tabias's picture

Thanks for the comments. I didn't even realize that the blog was going to be as long as it turned out to be, but I agree with you that a lot of what was written could be elaborated on more. I will break it down and like someone said "write a series" on different subjects.

Tabias-

_Meke's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

You should write a series of blogs.

Santa Claus is a black man

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

So what about magic?

That's a very good question. What is it that leads you to believe that "magick" is real?

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

tabias's picture

It all comes down to faith. Just kidding, but I just had to say it.

But really, like my post states "Wiccans use the spelling magick (with a "K") to show the difference in the magick that Wiccans perform and the magic that you might see on stage at some show in Vegas."

We don't believe in hocus-pocus magic, but I and many others, believe in the Law of Attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Attraction), which basically states that you can physically and/or mentally manifest experiences through your feelings, thoughts, and actions.

Magick and/or spellwork can be very similar if not the same as prayer. So with that said, that should tell you that I do believe in the power of prayer. I believe that everything around us from here to the end of the universe is made up of energy (to include our bodies and our minds). I believe that with prayer, meditation, etc...that you can manipulate this energy to a certain extent. This goes back to Karma (what you put out, you get back). The same goes for your thoughts, feelings, and actions.

This only works to a certain extent though. I do not believe in miracles. I do not believe that Deity is "human-like" and really cares about each individual in the universe. I do not believe that someone who beats cancer has had Divine intervention.

Now I do believe that everyone who has beat cancer probably fought their ass off to do so. It probably didn't just happen. They had the will to live and they never gave up. The football player who was injured recently was told that he would never walk again a couple of months ago and he is already walking on his own now. Divine intervention? No. The will to walk again? Absolutely! Speaking of miracles makes me think to another blog where someone said something along the lines of "then why hasn't there ever been an amputee who has grown back a limb?". And like I said, I do not believe in miracles that growing back a limb would obviously have to be.

Another important thing to mention is that the power of prayer, magick, or the Law of Attraction can't work alone. You can't pray to win the lottery and not get off your ass and purchase a ticket. You can't just sit at home and pray to get a job without applying for the job(s) that you want. The phrase "God will provide" only works if you meet "God" halfway. And when I say "God" I'm referring to the energy (Deity, God/dess, etc...) out there in the universe.

I'm a very positive person. I really feel that I can do or accomplish anything I want in life. I originally wanted to be a doctor when I grew up. Well that didn't happen. Was it because my "prayers" weren't answered? No. It was because I didn't set myself up correctly to go to med school and all that jazz. Instead I "decided" to go a different route and join the military.

This magick and prayer stuff isn't as easy as a lot of people want or claim it to be. You have to work at it. Wiccans believe that we (everyone) are in charge of our lives, not "God" or some supernatural force in the cosmos. We believe that we are all Gods and Goddess. Hell it says it right there in the bible (which I do not believe in, but I use it all the time) that "God created man in his own image, he created them, male and female". This verse tells me that we were created to be Gods and Goddesses. The mere fact that we all have free will to me is even more proof that we are in control of our own lives and that there is no "plan" for what we're supposed to do in life.

I'm not sure if all that answered your question or not. Of course my attempt to explain why we believe in magick was not an attempt to convince you that magick is real or not. Wicca is filled with a lot of things that can raise a lot of questions (just like with Christianity) and to tell you the truth; if it wasn't for the fact that I just believe that there is something out there greater than us (Deity, energy, etc...) then I would totally be an Atheist. It's just a feeling that I have about things that makes me still believe in "something else". I can't tell you what that something else is, nor can any other Wiccan. So why choose Wicca if we don't even know if it's true or not? Well, I don't think it's all about what's true or not. To us, if it works for you and you're not hurting yourself or others in the process of whatever it is that you're doing, then why not? We feel that there's something else out there, so we've decided to follow a path that is very compassionate about the earth and the people on it, we're not interested in waging war with anyone, and guess what....it's FUN!

Tabias-

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I am a former wiccan priest. I served as the guardian of a major southeastern coven for almost fifteen years, and even served a short stint as high priest. I know a LOT about "what wiccans believe," and you're doing a good job of expressing those beliefs consistently with what was my own experience.

I do have to say however, that in my experience most wiccans do adhere to the belief that there is a supernatural element that is central to the practice of magick. Honestly, your description of magick sounds much like my own did in the last few years before I stepped (regretfully) out of the religion and accepted that I was an atheist.

As a religion wicca (and neo-paganism in general) is subject to the same rational flaws that all religions share. There is no evidence that the supernatural exists. There is no evidence that "spellwork" or "prayer" does anything at all other than to serve as a psychological cruth for their respective pratictioners. There is no evidence that "gods" or "deities" or spiritual "energies" exist as anything other than a figment of our own minds.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love my former bothers and sisters in the craft. By and large, they're good people, and a far sight less judgemental and more tolerant than most religious folks. But, I think that their is something very wrong with the idea that the truth-value of a philosophical claim has no meaning.

I don't think that a pretend life is ever going to be a better life, and if you expend no effort towards determining whether or not your beliefs are actually based in reality, then you are doing yourself a great disservice.

What good is a religion if doesn't search for the truth?

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

_Meke's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Why must a religion necessarily search for an ultimate truth? Why can't it simply be a source of happiness or fulfillment?

Santa Claus is a black man

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

Why must a religion necessarily search for an ultimate truth? Why can't it simply be a source of happiness or fulfillment?

If all you're looking for is a way to be happy, that's great. But when you tack the term "religion" onto your philosophy, you are by defintion ascribing to a belief in and subsequently the worship of certain supernatural forces and/or beings. Now, some people might find the idea of a religion to be comforting, but I would contend that a belief in something that is based on a false premise could never serve to be more than a placebo. Ignorance may indeed be blissful, but to choose ignorance over knowledge for the sake of bliss is an act of fear, and the "happiness" created by such an act is an illusion.

percivale

-------------------------

"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

_Meke's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

If all you're looking for is a way to be happy, that's great.

is there really anything better in life than happiness?

Ignorance may indeed be blissful, but to choose ignorance over knowledge for the sake of bliss is an act of fear, and the "happiness" created by such an act is an illusion.

It would be an act of fear for you. That's why you're an atheist. For others its a way to be happy, and that happiness is not an illusion. The source of happiness may not be real, but the resulting feeling is real. I personally don't mind that bliss. "Knowledge" that there is no god is not the only kind of knowledge that exists in the world. I'm sure I have knowledge of something you never cared to investigate, but that doesn't make me happier than you, just different.

Life and Death are facts. Who cares about the rest?

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

is there really anything better in life than happiness?

In my opinion? Yes. Truth is better than happiness. I would rather have the truth and be sad, than live in a lie but be happy.

It would be an act of fear for you. That's why you're an atheist.

I disagree. I am an atheist because I live my life based on evidence and reason.

For others its a way to be happy, and that happiness is not an illusion. The source of happiness may not be real, but the resulting feeling is real.

Fair enough. I would however suggest that such happiness can only be maintained by intentionally turning a blind eye to certain (IMHO) obvious truths, and I really can't respect anyone whose happiness is based on that kind of denial.

I personally don't mind that bliss. "Knowledge" that there is no god is not the only kind of knowledge that exists in the world. I'm sure I have knowledge of something you never cared to investigate, but that doesn't make me happier than you, just different.

I don't have "knowledge" that there is no god, I simply haven't seen any evidence that would lead me to believe that there is. I find it odd that regardless of the religion that is being discussed, the adherents tend to get really worked up when you ask them to provide anything more substantial that "I believe" to justify their beliefs.

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

tabias's picture

"Things" happen that make me and others believe, but those things can never be proven "scientifically", so that's why people usually don't bother with providing evidence to people like you. Evidence to us may just be a coincidence to you.

Also, not sure if you’ve read it or not, but I responded to one of your post above by posting an entirely new blog http://www.progressiveu.org/162438-religion-and-science-a-response-to-a-.... I felt that it was a good enough topic for everyone to read, but here it is again for you.

In a previous post, I stated that “I and many others, believe in the Law of Attraction, which basically states that you can physically and/or mentally manifest experiences through your feelings, thoughts, and actions.”
And you responded with, “Do you have any actual, objective evidence that supports the validity of this hypothesis?”
My response:
I don't need evidence to prove the Law of Attraction, but maybe I could come up with some imaginary number, call it "i" and make everything that I believe in work out mathematically. Oh wait, that’s already been accomplished hasn’t it? That might sound freaking stupid, but when you get to a certain point in some huge equation and you just can’t figure it out; well, you can’t just make some stuff up, name it “i” and call it good.
If science can have imaginary numbers, then I and every other spiritual person out there can believe in whatever Deity they want. I’m sure there’s going to be some huge scientific explanation for “i” in a response to this post, but I hope I made my point. There are just as many questions when it comes to science as there are questions with religion.
I’m totally with you that people need to be put in their place when they start saying that their religion is the “One” or the “Truth”, but I am starting to realize that you and a few others are doing the same thing. You’re pushing your belief that science is the “Truth” and the “only way”. This is no different than what the countless members of the “other” religions are dong.
Science has been known to be incorrect as well over the course of our existence (do you remember that the Earth use to be flat?). Many theories that may have been scientifically sound a thousand or even a hundred years ago may be rubbish today because of technology and technology is changing the world as we know it everyday. What makes you think that this won’t continue to happen? Science is just like spirituality, hell I would even go as far as to call it a type of spirituality. We’re both searching, so why can’t we just search together?
I’m working on my Masters degree (Space Systems Operations Engineering Management) at the University of Webster in Colorado Springs and in one of my classes we were discussing rocket propulsion. My instructor (who I have confidence in that he knows what he’s talking about) demonstrated to the class (mathematically) on the board that there’s this very tiny window of time during a shuttle launch where it is physically and scientifically impossible for the shuttle to do what it does. We were all in shock. That’s just not supposed to happen. Now, do I chalk this up to some kind of Divine Intervention? No, absolutely not, but there is a flaw somewhere with the “science” of Rocket Science that hasn’t been figured out yet. We’ve been doing this for 40+ years now and I find it disturbing that we’re still guessing with something like launching a rocket into space.
Anyway, the whole point to that little story was to say that science isn’t perfect, nor is religion. I don’t want beliefs “pushed” on me either, and that goes for science and religion. My post were designed to explain some of what Wicca is all about, not to question the credibility of science or any other religion.
I “personally” feel that there’s something out there larger than us and I’ve chosen Wicca to revere and respect that force. For anyone out there who disagrees, that is perfectly fine. You don't have to. Not in America anyway.
Blessed Be,
Tabias-
P.S.

See also the post above about things that “SCIENCE” can’t prove.

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

"Things" happen that make me and others believe, but those things can never be proven "scientifically", so that's why people usually don't bother with providing evidence to people like you. Evidence to us may just be a coincidence to you.

"Things" like what? And, the whole point of "evidence" is that in order for it to be convincing, it needs to be objective. If it is only evidence "to you" then there's a pretty good chance that it isn't very good evidence at all.

I don't need evidence to prove the Law of Attraction,

Actually, if your goal is to prove the Law of Attraction to anyone other than yourself, then yes, you do need evidence.

but maybe I could come up with some imaginary number, call it "i" and make everything that I believe in work out mathematically. Oh wait, that’s already been accomplished hasn’t it? That might sound freaking stupid, but when you get to a certain point in some huge equation and you just can’t figure it out; well, you can’t just make some stuff up, name it “i” and call it good.

I won't say it sounds "stupid," because imaginary numbers are actually a very difficult concept to fully grasp. However, I will say that your statement demonstrates a less than full knowledge of theoretically mathematics.

If science can have imaginary numbers, then I and every other spiritual person out there can believe in whatever Deity they want. I’m sure there’s going to be some huge scientific explanation for “i” in a response to this post, but I hope I made my point. There are just as many questions when it comes to science as there are questions with religion.

Indeed, there are many questions that come to science...but the difference is that scientists work to answer those questions empirically, while religion just makes "things" up to explain what they don't understand. The big difference between "i" and the "things" that you mentioned above is that while "i" may be a slippery concept to understand, once you do understand it you can use it to make very real and exactingly predictable predictions about the physical world.

"In electrical engineering, for example, the voltage produced by a battery, is characterized by one real number (called amplitude), such as +12 volts or -12 volts. But the "AC" voltage in a home requires two parameters. One is an amplitude, such as 120 volts, and the other is an angle (called phase). The voltage is said to have two dimensions. A 2-dimensional quantity can be represented mathematically as either a vector or as a complex number (known in the engineering context as phasor). In the vector representation, the rectangular coordinates are typically referred to simply as X and Y. But in the complex number representation, the same components are referred to as real and imaginary. When the complex number is purely imaginary, such as a real part of 0 and an imaginary part of 120, it means the voltage has an amplitude of 120 volts and a phase of 90°, which is physically very real." (LINK)

I’m totally with you that people need to be put in their place when they start saying that their religion is the “One” or the “Truth”, but I am starting to realize that you and a few others are doing the same thing. You’re pushing your belief that science is the “Truth” and the “only way”. This is no different than what the countless members of the “other” religions are dong.

I can't recall every saying anything of the sort, at least not directly. But, I would suggest that while you have the right to adhere to any beliefs that you wish, that doesn't mean that just believing in something makes it real. The difference between your beliefs and mine, is that there is no subjectivity (or as little as I can manage, at least) to them, while yours relies wholly on subjective experiences which are conveniently kept just out of the reach of any close scrutiny.

Science has been known to be incorrect as well over the course of our existence (do you remember that the Earth use to be flat?).

Actually, the science of the Greeks knew of the spherical nature of the Earth as early as the 6th Century B.C.E. But, the "flat earth" persisted until the mid-18th Century C.E., because of the religious suppression (and in fact persecution) of the idea.

Many theories that may have been scientifically sound a thousand or even a hundred years ago may be rubbish today because of technology and technology is changing the world as we know it everyday. What makes you think that this won’t continue to happen?

Again, I can't recall ever suggesting the things you attribute to me. The whole point of the Scientific Method is to take conventional knowledge, to test it, and to throw out the rubbish and refine what is left.

Science is just like spirituality, hell I would even go as far as to call it a type of spirituality. We’re both searching, so why can’t we just search together?

The thing is that nothing that you have said thus far indicates to me that you are "searching" at all. You are accepting a pre-determined conclusion on "faith." You search stopped the moment you ceased to be skeptical about it.

I’m working on my Masters degree (Space Systems Operations Engineering Management) at the University of Webster in Colorado Springs and in one of my classes we were discussing rocket propulsion. My instructor (who I have confidence in that he knows what he’s talking about) demonstrated to the class (mathematically) on the board that there’s this very tiny window of time during a shuttle launch where it is physically and scientifically impossible for the shuttle to do what it does. We were all in shock. That’s just not supposed to happen. Now, do I chalk this up to some kind of Divine Intervention? No, absolutely not, but there is a flaw somewhere with the “science” of Rocket Science that hasn’t been figured out yet. We’ve been doing this for 40+ years now and I find it disturbing that we’re still guessing with something like launching a rocket into space.

If you wouldn't attribute this "tiny window" of the unknown to "divine intervention," then why would you do exactly that with the rest of your life?

Anyway, the whole point to that little story was to say that science isn’t perfect, nor is religion. I don’t want beliefs “pushed” on me either, and that goes for science and religion. My post were designed to explain some of what Wicca is all about, not to question the credibility of science or any other religion.

And yet, you did post your blog in an open forum, and by doing so invited my response. I don't think that it is "pushing" anything on you to ask that you explain your comments, and yes even to defend the pinions on which those comments rest.

I “personally” feel that there’s something out there larger than us and I’ve chosen Wicca to revere and respect that force. For anyone out there who disagrees, that is perfectly fine. You don't have to. Not in America anyway.

Again, unlike some of your opponents, I would never attempt to force you not to practice your religion. However, a willingness to live peaceably with those who think differently doesn't mean that we should refrain from rational discourse. I would suggest that if you are uncomfortable in defending the intellectual basis for your beliefs, then you might want to refrain from blogging about them.

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

_Meke's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

this response is nothing like what i was gonna say at first cause this computer is crappy...and sorry i took so long to respond, its the holidays.

In my opinion? Yes. Truth is better than happiness. I would rather have the truth and be sad, than live in a lie but be happy.

In that respect you and I are the same, sorta. We just have different truths. I do want the truth, but in my opinion I have the truth. And I don't think being a theist would make anyone more or less happy, it just makes me happy.

I disagree. I am an atheist because I live my life based on evidence and reason.

The same reason I am a theist, but you give no credit to my evidence. To you, my believing the evidence I have seen of God's existence is just fear.

Fair enough. I would however suggest that such happiness can only be maintained by intentionally turning a blind eye to certain (IMHO) obvious truths, and I really can't respect anyone whose happiness is based on that kind of denial.

IMHO is right. Your obvious truths are probably meaningless to every theist.

I find it odd that regardless of the religion that is being discussed, the adherents tend to get really worked up when you ask them to provide anything more substantial that "I believe" to justify their beliefs.

I'm not worked up, I realize that people will not accept the reasons for my beliefs unless they are of the same mindset.

You are assuming that all people will react to everything in the same way. The reason you are an athiest and I'm a theist is not so much because one of us knows something the other does not, but because we see the same things and come to different conclusions. What i see as "obvious truth" is just coincidence to you.

Life and Death are facts. Who cares about the rest?

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

In that respect you and I are the same, sorta. We just have different truths. I do want the truth, but in my opinion I have the truth. And I don't think being a theist would make anyone more or less happy, it just makes me happy.

Happiness and truth are two different things. Happiness is a subjective experience. But a truth...a real truth...is not subject to opinions. One of the most basic flaws in theism is the illogical assumption that belief equals truth. The truth remains the same whether you believe in it or not, and no amount of belief can change a false assumption into a true one.

The same reason I am a theist, but you give no credit to my evidence. To you, my believing the evidence I have seen of God's existence is just fear.

Evidence? Like what? If you can't present the things that convinced you for objective examination, do you really think that they qualify as "evidence?"

IMHO is right. Your obvious truths are probably meaningless to every theist.

Well, maybe "obvious" was a poor choice of words. The point is that one can closely scrutinize the claims of religion, and whenever that happens there seems to be little if any substance behind those claims. You may claim that "magic" exists, but can you demonstrate that belief in an objective context?

I'm not worked up, I realize that people will not accept the reasons for my beliefs unless they are of the same mindset.

As I said above, real truths are not subject to opinions. If your argument requires that your opponent already shares the same basic point-of-view in order to succeed, then its not a very good argument.

You are assuming that all people will react to everything in the same way. The reason you are an athiest and I'm a theist is not so much because one of us knows something the other does not, but because we see the same things and come to different conclusions. What i see as "obvious truth" is just coincidence to you.

I haven't called your experience coincidental at all. I have merely pointed out that I am highly skeptical of the nebulous claims of evidence that you guys have offered. As someone who has a LOT of first hand experience with Wicca, I can say with some confidence that the rituals and practices of the religion are extraordinarily powerful on a psychological level. But are they really "magical?" Do the "god" and "goddess" really exist? Can they really effect the physical word? I think not, due to the fact that there is no actual, objective evidence that would suggest otherwise. Perhaps you will be the first to prove me wrong regarding the supernatural claims of the world's religions, but I doubt it.

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

_Meke's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

I'm not Wiccan BTW, it seems from your posts you got that impression. I am however a pantheist and I'll argue from my perspective. Anything about magic is an argument for someone else.

Happiness and truth are two different things.

I never said they weren't. I said believing what i believe makes me happy.

Evidence? Like what? If you can't present the things that convinced you for objective examination, do you really think that they qualify as "evidence?"

The truth is that no one has been able to prove one way or another that God(with its many definitions) does or doesn't exist. People have only been able to use both of these facts to come to the conclusion that the other is true. Example: Before the discovery of subatomic particles there was no evidence that anything smaller than an atom existed then BOOM electrons, protons, neutrons and all kinds of crap. There could have been scientists who believed that there was something more to atoms but had not the means to prove it and others who said there is no evidence for it therefore there is nothing more to an atom. But subatomic particles existed all along. Anybody who thought so wasn't wrong. I'm not wrong for believing just because there is no evidence.

I gonna have to agree with your point about evidence. I wouldn't usually use the word evidence, but reasons My reasons for believing cannot be studied by anyone who has not had my experience. But, "absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence." (forgot who said that) You have not seen evidence, but that doesn't mean there is no god.

As I said above, real truths are not subject to opinions. If your argument requires that your opponent already shares the same basic point-of-view in order to succeed, then its not a very good argument.

I don't know what truths you're talking about but I haven't come across any truth that makes God an impossibility. Even with clear truths, point of view matters. You've taken the fact that God's existence has never been proven or disproven to mean that there is no god. I've taken that to mean that people have not yet found a way to determine God's existence, but not that God does not exist. Your POV led you to a dofferent conclusion from the same evidence.

Cheesy

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I'm not Wiccan BTW, it seems from your posts you got that impression. I am however a pantheist and I'll argue from my perspective. Anything about magic is an argument for someone else.

I apologize for the confusion, but the essence of my comment remains the same, I think. All religions, by definition, include an element of belief in supernatural forces and agencies for which no actual, objective evidence exists.

I never said they weren't. I said believing what i believe makes me happy.

You also said that you "want the truth" and that you "have the truth" and that it "makes me happy." There seems to me to be a disconnect somewhere in there. You say you believe you have the truth, but based on what?

The truth is that no one has been able to prove one way or another that God(with its many definitions) does or doesn't exist.

True enough, but in a reasonable discourse only one side of that argument has a burden of proof to fulfill. One cannot logically prove that something does NOT exist, after all. I mean, there's no proof that bigfoot doesn't exist either, but I'm skeptical of people who claim to have see him, too.

People have only been able to use both of these facts to come to the conclusion that the other is true. Example: Before the discovery of subatomic particles there was no evidence that anything smaller than an atom existed then BOOM electrons, protons, neutrons and all kinds of crap. There could have been scientists who believed that there was something more to atoms but had not the means to prove it and others who said there is no evidence for it therefore there is nothing more to an atom. But subatomic particles existed all along. Anybody who thought so wasn't wrong. I'm not wrong for believing just because there is no evidence.

There are a lot of flaws in your comparison. For one, before the electron was discovered in the late 19th century, there weren't really any scientists who were basing their work on the assumption of the existence of sub-atomic particles. And, once Dr. Thompson positied their existence to the rest of the scientific community, he was able to provide actual, objective evidence that his newly discovered particle was real.

Note that nowhere in my argument do I say that "god does NOT exist." I find that proposition to be unlikely (at best) due to the complete lack of evidence to suggest otherwise, but the universe is a really big place, and we don't know everthing that it holds. All I am asking of you is to give me some reason to think that your argument for the existence of a supernatural "god" is more convincing than a belief in bigfoot.

I gonna have to agree with your point about evidence. I wouldn't usually use the word evidence, but reasons My reasons for believing cannot be studied by anyone who has not had my experience. But, "absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence." (forgot who said that) You have not seen evidence, but that doesn't mean there is no god.

I think that was Carl Sagan (one of my favorite authors, btw). And yes, it is true that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absense." But absense of evidence still isn't evidence, either. The converse of Sagan's admonition is a a classic logical flaw known as the argument from ingorance, which can be briefly stated as "because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false."

I don't know what truths you're talking about but I haven't come across any truth that makes God an impossibility. Even with clear truths, point of view matters.

I disagree completely. 2 + 2 =4. Two plus two equals four, regardless of your point-of-view. You might believe that two plus two equals five, but if you do, your wrong...even it makes you "happy" to cling to the incorrect answer.

You've taken the fact that God's existence has never been proven or disproven to mean that there is no god. I've taken that to mean that people have not yet found a way to determine God's existence, but not that God does not exist. Your POV led you to a dofferent conclusion from the same evidence.

Actually, you have my point of view completely wrong. You are projective your own absoute convictions onto my position. I have not said that "god" does NOT exist, but merely that I am skeptical of such claims due to the lack of any evidence that would lead me to believe otherwise. I am completely open to the idea, should any such evidence ever become available. What I am criticizing is the willingness of some to skip over the reasonably necessary step of looking for evidence before trying to claim that their hypothesis is an actual fact.

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

_Meke's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Ok so my whole sub-atomic particle thing was off base. Yay for me trying to be smart.

All I am asking of you is to give me some reason to think that your argument for the existence of a supernatural "god" is more convincing than a belief in bigfoot.

I don't think it's more convincing, and I pretty much never try to convince people of god's existence. Personally I believe in god because "he" revealed himself to me. But I know I can't prove that to anyone else. I used to be an atheist so I understand your point. Sorry if that doesn't satisfy you.
_______________
What is...?

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I am perfectly okay with someone who premises an explanation for his or her religious beliefs with the admission that those beliefs are not based on any sort of objective evidence. Such an admission seems to me to indicate that those beliefs are purely personal, and are unlikely to be promoted by force onto those around you. When you take away the implied threat of violence that most religions seem to perpetuate, what is left is just philosophy, which can be not only interesting, but informative and useful in helping humans cope with the complex and often troubling world around us.

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

_Meke's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Well that was certainly unexpected. Glad we were able to reach an agreement.

Rome didn't fall in a day

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

...it was unexpected. This has been my position all along, and in many blogs. (:P)

perci

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

_Meke's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

THose rare times when I talk to people, both atheist and religious, about my belief they don't accept my reasons for believing. I didn't give you enough credit.

Rome didn't fall in a day
Cheesy?

tabias's picture

I really love the Atheist and their outlook on life, but like Meke said, "Why can't it simply be a source of happiness or fulfillment?"

"What good is a religion if doesn't search for the truth?"

It's not about findind the truth when it comes to my spirituality. I don't think there is one. Be it a psychological fix or not, it's something that I enjoy and it doesn't hurt anyone else to do it.

Just think of it as a hobby or something that you really enjoy and that you don't want to do without. Maybe you like fast cars or something like that. Anyone can always ask, Why" Why do you like fast cars? Makes no sense to drive fast and waste all your gas when you can buy a car that gets 80 mpg but looks like a piece of shit. It's all about what you want in life. Me being Wicca doesn't hurt you or anyone else, so this shouldn't be something that bothers you.

"I do have to say however, that in my experience most Wiccans do adhere to the belief that there is a supernatural element that is central to the practice of magick."

I appreciate your added knowledge, but not all Wiccans are the same and although I tried to stay in the middle with my post, my description has come from what I've observed among the Wiccans that I've come in contact with during my short time as a Wiccan. I won't sit here and say that it's not supernatural, but I can't say that it is either. I believe a certain way, and the Wiccan in the next room (my wife) even has a different opinion of Deity herself. So again, it's all about how you see Deity, not what you're supposed to see. That's dogma and although Wicca has some, I try to stay away from it or at least stay away from "enforcing" it.

Tabias-

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

It's not about findind the truth when it comes to my spirituality. I don't think there is one. Be it a psychological fix or not, it's something that I enjoy and it doesn't hurt anyone else to do it.

Fair enough, and that's why I still get along much better with the neo-pagan community than with certain other religiously-minded groups.

Just think of it as a hobby or something that you really enjoy and that you don't want to do without. Maybe you like fast cars or something like that. Anyone can always ask, Why" Why do you like fast cars? Makes no sense to drive fast and waste all your gas when you can buy a car that gets 80 mpg but looks like a piece of shit. It's all about what you want in life. Me being Wicca doesn't hurt you or anyone else, so this shouldn't be something that bothers you.

It doesn't really "bother" me, but you didn't present Wicca as a "hobby." You presented it as a religion. The term religion is a loaded one, and carries with it certain definitional elements, such as...

* a notion of the transcendent or divine, often, but not always, in the form of theism
* a cultural or behavioural aspect of ritual, liturgy and organized worship, often involving a priesthood, and * societal norms of morality (ethos) and virtue (arete)
* a set of myths or sacred truths held in reverence or believed by adherents

Perhaps your relgion is just a "hobby" to you, but if it is then I would suggest that perhaps the word "religion" isn't the best term to convey what it is that you believe and do.

I appreciate your added knowledge, but not all Wiccans are the same and although I tried to stay in the middle with my post, my description has come from what I've observed among the Wiccans that I've come in contact with during my short time as a Wiccan.

I know that "all" wiccans aren't the same, but in any identity-based movement, there tends to be more similarities than there are differences. I would guess that most of the wiccans you have met are casual, ecclectic solitaires who are toying with the religion. You won't find many serious practioners that don't buy into wicca's supernatural elements on at least some level, which when you think about it isn't surprising since those elements are exactly what differentiates the Craft from the Religion.

I won't sit here and say that it's not supernatural, but I can't say that it is either. I believe a certain way, and the Wiccan in the next room (my wife) even has a different opinion of Deity herself. So again, it's all about how you see Deity, not what you're supposed to see. That's dogma and although Wicca has some, I try to stay away from it or at least stay away from "enforcing" it.

The problem that I have is that regardless of how similar or different your respective opinions of "deity" might be, you're both engaging in the same intellectual fallacy, which is that you are assigning characteristics to an entity for whose existence you have no actual evidence. You might as well be saying, "I worship Superman" or "I worship the Care Bears," both of whom it could be argued teach worthy lessons regarding the way to live one's life...even though they are not real.

Ultimately, I am happy to respect your freedom to believe in whatever you wish. But if you invite my opionion (which you did when you posted your beliefs in an open blog), then I don't feel bad in giving it to you. You're wasting your life in the pursuit of a fantasy. If that pursuit makes you happy, then I certainly won't stand in your way. But if you really want to get all that you can in life, then instead of spending one hour casting a prosperity spell, and another hour out looking for a job, you would be better served by spending two hours out looking for the job.

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

tabias's picture

If I could take the "religion" label of Wicca, I would. it actually saddens me that Wicca became a religion. I would have been just happy with it left a "spirituality practice". I call it a religion because that's what it is.

Tabias-

tabias's picture

When I left Christianity, it felt soo good, but I also felt empty. It wasn't "God" or Deity that I wanted to part with, it was the teachings of the bible. So during the time where I was in between Christianity and Paganism and Wicca, I really felt like I was missing something. Call it psychological if you want, but even after leaving the church, I always felt that there was something else out there, be it supernatural, or in the way that I described Deity. So to me, I need spirituality. You might not, and that's fine.

Blessed Be,
Tabias-

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

...that has a great propensity for self-deception. Just because you "feel" that there is "something else out there" doesn't mean that there is (or that there isn't). There are aspects to religious belief that are very comforting, but if those aspects aren't real, then neither is the comfort that they provide.

That's just my opinion.

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

tabias's picture

I know that you're very educated and I'm working on my Masters myself, but I guess trying to argue religion or spirituality with someone who is totally against it and who doesn't believe in it is pointless. You're not going to change your view, nor am I. I'm not being deceived about anything though. I believe in what I believe in because it "feels" right to me.

"Just because you "feel" that there is "something else out there" doesn't mean that there is (or that there isn't). "

You're right that it doesn't mean that there is or isn't, but the feeling that I have is enough for me to want to believe. What's wrong with believing? We tell our kids that this and that doesn't exist any more when those things were so vivid when we were younger ourselves.

Our world has become much too serious and I so wish that adults could have just a quarter of the imagination that our kids do. And let the kids believe in what they want to believe in. Is the grown up world so much better? I mean does "searching for the truth" mean getting up, eating, going to work, eating some more, working some more, coming home, eating again, watching TV, going to sleep, and doing it all over again for the rest of our lives? You're never going to "find" the truth. Science is even flawed from time to time. They (scientists) are always disproving one theory and replacing it with another. And this will continue to go on forever. Scientist use to say that the earth was flat, but now it's not. All I'm trying to say here is that, there is no problem with religion; until it is pushed on others. Religion should stop at someone else's nose. Keep it to your self and all is good!

My spirituality lets me step out of reality for a while and leave this place behind. You know just as much as I do that Wicca is all about "stepping out of reality for a while". I love it. Call it what you want, but it works for me man.

Again, thanks for your comments. I always enjoy talking back and forth with you.

Tabias-

Blackout's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I know that you're very educated and I'm working on my Masters myself, but I guess trying to argue religion or spirituality with someone who is totally against it and who doesn't believe in it is pointless.

That's not exactly true. It's not that I believe that spirituality is "pointless," since there are certainly certainly benefits to the community and attitudes that can come along with postively focused beliefs. My argument is rather a questioning of the basis for those benefits, and can they be obtained without the necessity of ascribing to a belief that is (probably) false.

You're not going to change your view, nor am I. I'm not being deceived about anything though. I believe in what I believe in because it "feels" right to me.

Acutally, it would be remarkably easy to get me to change my point of view. All it would require is just ONE piece of objective evidence that suggests that supernatural beings actually exist, or just ONE verifiable experiment that demonstrates that "magik" actually works.

You're right that it doesn't mean that there is or isn't, but the feeling that I have is enough for me to want to believe. What's wrong with believing? We tell our kids that this and that doesn't exist any more when those things were so vivid when we were younger ourselves.

Well, it IS like you said...so long as you're not hurting anyone, its no big deal. But as for belief, I don't really see the value in teaching our kids to believe in things that aren't true.

Let's pretend that you and l live in the far, frozen north, and there is a snow storm outside. Let's say that we have a couple of kids. Let's say that our kids are curious, and might be thinking about sneaking out in the storm to see what its all about. Now, we could make up a story and tell the kids that there is a evil snow monster, and that if they go outside in the storm, the snow monster will EAT them. That would probably be a pretty effective (and an entertainingly "magikal") way to make sure that our kids don't go out and die in the storm. It is a story that has a positive benefit, in that it helps to keep our kids alive. OR, we could sit our kids down and tell them the honest truth...storms are dangerous, and that they could die if they go out in the storm. That would also probably work, and it seems to me that telling them the TRUTH is a better lesson to teach than a FEAR.

Our world has become much too serious and I so wish that adults could have just a quarter of the imagination that our kids do.

I think there is a lot of room for imagination in the human quest to understand the real world. One can imagine a great many things--other planets, other forms of life, new and wonderous discoveries--but that's a bit different from believing in things for which there is no evidence. It's one thing to say, "the potential for life on other planents is fascinating...I wonder what's out there?", and another thing to say, "I believe that purple, six-headed hippopotamuses live on the planet of Neptune."

And let the kids believe in what they want to believe in.

Lets say you take your kid to see Superman: The Movie. Your kid things its great, and for the next week careens around the house pretending to fly. Suddenly, you see him on the second-floor deck, about to jump off the railings to his death in the yard below, because he "believes" he can fly. Don't you think that just maybe you should grab him, and sit him down, and say, "My boy, that was just a movie. People really can't fly."

Is the grown up world so much better?

Better than what? Is the grown up world more fun? Probably not. But, the real world is the world that we live in, and ignoring it in favor of a trumped up fantasy isn't a very wise (or "wicce") way to live, IMHO.

I mean does "searching for the truth" mean getting up, eating, going to work, eating some more, working some more, coming home, eating again, watching TV, going to sleep, and doing it all over again for the rest of our lives?

I would suggest that "the truth" encompasses a bit more than what you seem to think it does. Every day is a wonder, and if you take time to look there are fascinating and beautiful things around you every day.

You're never going to "find" the truth.

That's looser talk.

Science is even flawed from time to time. They (scientists) are always disproving one theory and replacing it with another. And this will continue to go on forever. Scientist use to say that the earth was flat, but now it's not. All I'm trying to say here is that, there is no problem with religion; until it is pushed on others. Religion should stop at someone else's nose. Keep it to your self and all is good!

Science seems to be doing a pretty good job of figuring things out, and I suspect that if you abandoned all the advance of science in favor of a life lived solely on the advancements that religion has wrought, we wouldn't be having this conversation (unless of course you stumbled upon my cave while you were out hunting and gathering).

My spirituality lets me step out of reality for a while and leave this place behind. You know just as much as I do that Wicca is all about "stepping out of reality for a while". I love it. Call it what you want, but it works for me man.

No offense, but what you call "stepping out of reality," I would call "hiding from reality."

Again, thanks for your comments. I always enjoy talking back and forth with you.

Right back at you.

percivale

-------------------------

"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

tabias's picture

"Actually, it would be remarkably easy to get me to change my point of view. All it would require is just ONE piece of objective evidence that suggests that supernatural beings actually exist, or just ONE verifiable experiment that demonstrates that "magik" actually works."

I can't prove to you that there's something supernatural out there or that magick works any more than you can prove to me how major league baseball players are able to hit fastballs when they can only track at a maximum of 120 degrees per second and the ball thrown at 100 mph is moving at 500 degrees per second.

Arizona State’s Rob Gray states that "It is clear that successful batting is nearly impossible in the situation in which pitch speed is random and in which no auxiliary cues (e.g., pitcher’s arm motion or pitch count) are available to the batter."

Also, I think that you mentioned placebo before in one of your post. I would say that the placebo experiment could in fact be proof of magick and/or the Law of Attraction. You take certain pills to stop a certain type of pain, and then the pills are changed to placebo pills. The pain is still being treated, but you're only taking a sugar pill now. This is a perfect example of mind over matter. You truly believe in your mind that the pill that you're taking is taking away the pain, but it's not. It's all in your head. This is proof (I'm sure you won't see it this way) that if you really put your mind to something, you can overcome it. I truly believe that this is the reason why I'm hardly ever sick. And believe me, I don't eat very well. I don't eat any fruits or veggies at all and I'm sick less often than my wife, who eats very well.

"FOUR years ago, a particle accelerator in France detected six particles that should not exist. They are called tetraneutrons: four neutrons that are bound together in a way that defies the laws of physics."
http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524911.600

"TAKE our best understanding of gravity, apply it to the way galaxies spin, and you'll quickly see the problem: the galaxies should be falling apart. Galactic matter orbits around a central point because its mutual gravitational attraction creates centripetal forces. But there is not enough mass in the galaxies to produce the observed spin.
http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524911.600

"a new book by scientist Dr. Elisabeth Lloyd, from Indiana U, basically claims there is no justifiable evolutionary need for the female orgasm whatsoever, that it really serves no known biological purpose and that it's becoming, therefore, increasingly obsolete and redundant and more or less unnecessary." "The female orgasm, clearly, ain't for procreation. It has no effect on the transport of sperm. It doesn't drive maternal desire." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2005/05/27/not...

"SPEED OF LIGHT, once thought unbreakable, has been exceeded... Certain phenomena, such as solar disturbances on the sun which take more than eight minutes to be visible on the earth, are registered instantaneously on the acupuncture points of instrumented subjects. Acupuncture points apparently respond to solar events by some other force which travels through space at a much higher speed than light." http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/swanson.shtml

" ESP. Large-scale experiments by the Princeton PEAR Lab as well as other laboratories have proven that ESP is a real, statistically verifiable scientific phenomenon. Thousands of experiments have been conducted with dozens of subjects, which demonstrate that this form of communication is real, and that it does not weaken measurably with distance. This makes it unlike any known physical force. " http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/swanson.shtml

"PSYCHOKINESIS, OR MIND OVER MATTER. The ability to exert psychic force over objects at a distance has also been demonstrated in large-scale experiments. Even over distances of thousands of miles, the behavior of certain machines, called REGs for Random Event Generators, have been altered by the intention, or the psychic force of a distant person. The odds that these effects are real, and not due to chance, is now measured in billions to one. In other words, this phenomenon is real." http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/swanson.shtml

"REMOTE VIEWING. The American military conducted a secret remote viewing program for almost two decades. It was supported because it worked, and evidence of its success has now become public. The remote viewers have demonstrated that it is possible to view "targets" which are remote in space and time. In many cases details which were unavailable any other way were acquired by the viewers. Rigorous statistical experiments have confirmed that remote viewing has accuracy far above chance, and represents a real phenomenon which defies present science. " http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/swanson.shtml

"TIME AND PROPHECY. One unusual aspect of ESP, Remote Viewing and Psychokinesis is that "time" doesn't seem to matter. One can exert an influence or acquire information in the past and in the future, almost as easily as in the present. In conventional physics, the order of events is very important, but in the realm of psychic phenomena there seems to be a flexibility to move in time that defies current physics." http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/swanson.shtml

"GHOSTS. Modern scientific ghost hunters use magnetic, electrical, optical and thermal sensors when they survey supposedly haunted sites. In hundreds of cases, technical