In the issue of abortion there are two sides- those who are pro-life, and those who are pro-choice. It seems to me you could call those who are pro-choice, pro-death. Or pro-murder.
The arguement that it is the woman's choice is completely irrational. Once the baby is alive- it's alive and killing it is wrong. The way people have flipped things around to say "abort the fetus" rather than "kill the baby" is nauseating.
Whenever a genocide takes place one of the first things that happens is propaganda is spread around that takes away the humanity of whomever it is that is to be slaughtered. That is what we've done. We've made these babies inhuman so that killing them is no big deal.
I'm not one of those to go stand outside of an abortuary and yell at women and doctors and make them feel horrible, or defiant, or however one would feel in that situation- I'd rather stand out there and find one of the girls who is making the decision because she is scared and feels like she has no other choice. Then I would take this girl and tell her everything is going to be all right. I would help with herr medical bills, give her a place to stay, and then adopt her baby.
I think that a person can't be against something unless they're really willing to do something about it. You can't stand up and say somethings wrong, unless you're willing to do what's right.
I used to protest abortion with a woman who would bring her two babies, already seeing these two live children next to giant posters of the slaughtered children was a massive contrast- but to hear her story was amazing.
A person would walk by and say "what kind of mother are you? How can you bring your children here?" And her answer would go into the story of how she was pregnant, and a few months later a friend of hers got pregnant, and was going to abort her baby. Instead, they went through the pregnancy together and at the end, she adopted her son. So her kids, they may look like brothers...but they aren't.
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Whether it's wrong to go through with an abortion or not is up to the individual, but no one, not even the Government, has the right to take that choice away. Also, "alive" is a very vague word, which is why this matter is so controversial. Is it alive when it's first conceived? Or when it has a heartbeat? Or when it first starts looking human? Or when it's born? Each person will answer those questions differently.
Now, personally, I will never have an abortion, and would be very hard pressed to do so even if it means life or death for me. I could never go through what could be equated to a willful miscarriage (I've already had a miscarriage and it basically ruined me). I won't, however, force my opinion on others.
If a woman truly does not want the child she's carrying, she's going to find a way to get rid of it. Yes, I know that sounds cold and twisted (both the idea and the way I'm saying it), but it's a fact. Coat hangers, punching themselves (or having their boyfriend/lover punch them), you name it, there's someone who's at least tried it.
Now, would you rather have that woman risk causing permanent damage to her body (or even killing herself), or would you rather she get professional help and carry out her choice safely? That's not to say doctors won't do it without question, but at least it's not a rusty coat hanger in her bathroom.
Pro-life people want to effectively stop people from making their own choices by making a choice for them. The problem is, it doesn't matter if it's illegal. If a person wants something bad enough, they're going to do it, regardless of the laws in place. Pro-choice people don't want to make any choices for anyone else, but simply provide a safe means for someone to make their own decision, even if a pro-choice person doesn't agree with it individually.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Your right too, women might hurt themselves by killing those babies, so we should do it for them ...
women might hurt themselves by killing those babies, so we should do it for them
You're right, let's let women kill themselves and the baby they were carrying that pro-lifers so desperately want to save.
There's a difference between doing something for them and providing a safe means to do something. Pro-choice people are not forcing women to have abortions, but rather allowing for a means to do so that doesn't put the woman's life in jeopardy, either.
Like I said before, whether it's illegal or not makes no difference to the person that wants something bad enough. Why force people to take measures that put their lives in jeopardy when it doesn't need to be that way?
If the ideas of pro-lifers are to save lives, how is stopping safe means of abortion not counter-productive, since it would result in not only the children dying, but the mothers as well?
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
its none of our business what people want to do when they're pregnant. would we appreciate people butting into our lives just as we bought something like a new house (nothing like a child i know, but still a large descision) or got married and said "NO I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WRONG! YOU ARE WRONG! YOUR OPINION IS WRONG" and protested and griped the entire time.
abortion happens. there's really no stopping it.
Your right ... and it is also none of our business if some guy wants to start murding little children either, after all what he does with his own life is none of our concern.
I think that a lot of people mistake this issue for something that it is not. Pro-choice and pro-life are horrible names for the sides and contribute to the missunderstanding. Of course everyone believes that murder is wrong and of course everyone believes that they should have choices in their life. Everyone is pro-life and pro-choice. The real question is if the fetus can be considered an individual or not. Or better yet, when does it become an individual. The matter of choice and life really have absolutly nothing to do with it, because, if the fetus becomes it's own individual at the moment of conception, then of course it is murder. The woman doesn't get a choice in the matter at all, just like the rest of us don't get a choice of murdering people. Of course, if the baby becomes its own idividual at the moment of birth, the abortion is not murder at all.
I guess my point would be that the issue really boils down to when the fetus becomes an individual, and has abosolutly nothing to do with murder or choice.
i completely agree. And it seemed that it wass thouht that the fetus was not a perrson until birth- and so they did partial-birth abortions- which is when the baby is carried to term, and as it's being born, the doctor punctures its head killing it. That is murder. There is no other way of looking at that but to think of it as murder. Which is why it's been made illegal.
I realize women aren't going to stop killing their babies. Just the same as making murder illegal didn't stop it from happening, but by establishing something that officially decides it's wrong, and makes it a bit more difficult, might save some lives. And I'm all about saving lives.
And if a women doesn't want a baby, maybe she should keep her pants on...and anyone reading this attributing abortion to rape- less than one percent of abortions are babies conceived by rape.
The arguement that it is the woman's choice is completely irrational.
Nope, it's actually just a statement of the obvious: it is the woman's choice, whether you like it or not. That's not just law, it's biology. When a woman gets pregnant, she is usually the first to know. She doesn't have to tell anyone. She can end the pregnancy all on her own if she wants to, and nobody can stop her. That's reality.
Once the baby is alive- it's alive and killing it is wrong.
Then don't have an abortion. It's your right. Go out and have 37 babies, if you like. Nobody will stop you.
But your opinion of what's morally right and morally wrong has no bearing on my life, just like the Muslims' prohibition against pork doesn't stop me from enjoying a nice, crispy bacon sandwich, and the Hindus' belief that cows are sacred doesn't stop me from cooking up and eating some juicy roast beef.
I don't believe that abortion is wrong. And yes, I've seen all the pro-life sites, and all the "dead baby" photos. I've even carried a pregnancy to term myself, and I'm more pro-choice than ever.
We've made these babies inhuman so that killing them is no big deal.
We've done no such thing. Fetuses have never been considered full human beings. Even when abortion was illegal, it was never a crime on the same level as murder. (Look it up.) In fact, thanks to recent fetal-murder statutes, fetuses are now more protected than ever before.
And abortion, though not illegal, is becoming rarer. Abortion rates have been declining since the '80s. It doesn't have to be illegal to be a big deal.
I'm not one of those to go stand outside of an abortuary and yell at women and doctors and make them feel horrible, or defiant, or however one would feel in that situation- I'd rather stand out there and find one of the girls who is making the decision because she is scared and feels like she has no other choice. Then I would take this girl and tell her everything is going to be all right. I would help with herr medical bills, give her a place to stay, and then adopt her baby.
I think that a person can't be against something unless they're really willing to do something about it. You can't stand up and say somethings wrong, unless you're willing to do what's right.
That's really good of you, but there are plenty of women out there who consider all their options and still feel very strongly that abortion is their best bet, and they will do it regardless of what the law says. And there's nothing "pro-death" or "pro-murder" about wanting those women to be safe from disease, disability or death. After all, letting women kill themselves with crude self-abortions doesn't save their babies.
Pro-choice people are not pro-abortion. If everyone voluntarily stopped having (non-emergency) abortions tomorrow, we would be thrilled, because it would mean that every pregnancy was planned and every child was wanted. Wouldn't that be wonderful?
But it's never going to happen, because human beings are not perfect. We take risks and we make mistakes. We get horny and we have sex. It's human nature. But I don't think girls and women should have to die just because they got pregnant and desperately don't want to be. If women are going to have abortions, they should be as safe as possible, so those girls and women can go on to take care of their families/finish school/have careers/get married/have kids some day. That's not pro-murder, it's pro-life.
are you kidding? how many women have abortions because they will die because of the pregnancy, and how many women if they couldnt have a "safe abortion" would go out and do it anyway? my guess- less than half. seriously, thats a ridiculous arguement. and i hate the argument that it will happen anyway. so will genocide- but we chose to help stop the holocaust. and so will murder- but we still say its wrong. and, yeah, its alway a persons choice whether or not they can kill someone or something- that doesnt make it right.
I have no right forcing my beliefs on you, just like you have no right forcing your beliefs on me. And the government, of all institutions, certainly has no right forcing the beliefs of those that make up the government body on the general public.
Pro-choice does not force women to have abortions. It also does not force doctors to perform abortions. It simply enables people who are willing to perform/have abortions to do so in a safe, sterile environment. When done in a medical facility, the woman can also get counciling so the decision is not a rash one regretted later. Other options can also be considered. It's not like a doctor will perform an abortion no questions asked.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Where abortion is illegal, the same amount of abortions take place where it's legal.
So yes, even if abortion is illegal, the same amount of women will go out and do it -- even if it IS unsafe.
Abortion is NOT a genocide. Fetuses are not considered "people" and are not considered "persons" under the Human Rights Convention. Please don't misuse words! There is a heavy weight with genocide, and if we try to call things incorrectly they will lose their meaning. Genocide is a destruction / mass killing of peoples of a certain culture / political group / etcetera.