Alright, Genesis Seven. So, for the first time in the good Old Testament, we move beyond mere speculation and get to some real, hardcore genocide and the type of animal cruelty that would get PETA so pissed that, if god were alive today, they would bomb the guy and then shoot up the corpse till it couldn’t be recognized. ….OK, enough with that. So, in the first part of Genesis 7, god is busy making sure that his mass killing will be only nearly the end of all life on Earth. As for the rest, well that can go the slow way due to the horrible consequences of such a limited gene pool.
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."
5 And Noah did all that the LORD commanded him.
6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.
My Commentary
OK, so Noah is righteous. These definitions of righteous come from Dictionary.com There was another one in the first entry, but that wasn't
1. Characterized by uprightness or morality: a righteous observance of the law.
2. Morally right or justifiable: righteous indignation.
3. Acting in an upright, moral way; virtuous: a righteous and godly person.
I guess Noah listened to the law. If, as I’m sure someone does, you consider god’s word to be law. However, the term unjust law comes to mind. Well, not much more to say.
On to numero dos. I can’t do it. I cannot morally justify the killing of every human on Earth save one family. Every man, woman, child. I cannot reconcile that with a moral being. Noah didn’t even say, isn’t there another way, god? He just said, OK, and built the ark. Didn’t even bat an eye at all those people who were going to die.
Well, I guess listening to god makes you godly, but if taking part in genocide makes you godly, I can proudly proclaim that I am not a godly person.
Moving on. Noah is getting animals, not two of each kind. There are some exceptions. I still don’t think all these animals are going to fit on an ark that small. I guess, when dealing with god, scale is out the window. Whatever. Of course, he has to build the ark and gather all these animals in seven days. I guess the guy was a hard worker. What can I say? Everyone has to have some virtues.
And then, Noah is 600 years old, which is far too old for the kind of physical exertion necessary to build an ark. Not to mention the stress. Well, the family of Noah, will all these animals get on the ark and then, on the seventh day, god flooded the world. Shame on you god. And Noah. At least one of you didn’t keep the Sabbath.
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lmao I enjoy the sarcasm. I understand where you're coming from but my only problem with this is that every culture, not just religion, has a flood story. I'm guessing there was a flood, did God do it? Who knows. I don't acknowledge or deny the existence of God, but there has to be some truth is almost all cultures and religions have the same story.
Floods are very common. Every once and a while, there's going to be a MAJOR BIG flood. Top that off with the fact that cultures tend to spring up around rivers, a good place to be when you want to be flooded, and it isn't hard to believe that all these cultures have stories about world floods. It probably comes from stories of large floods early in the history of the culture that nearly annihilated it. Put that together with the whole culture borrowing from culture and we have a pretty good basis for a heck of a lot of flood stories.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Right, but they all have some giant boat and the flood stories all agree on some parts together, I can't remember what though.
They don't all have giant boats. The Greek flood, for instance, is boat free. I believe the common factor is people on the tops of mountains. That seems to be fairly common, although I don't think there's that in the Greek story either.
However, the similarities are pretty easy to explain. A)There's the whole culture theft business. B) You need people to survive the flood to explain the presence of people today. Boats and high places are pretty congenial to solving that problem.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Good point, everyone does ends up on a mountaintop. But most of them have a boat. They are, but still, there is something that I feel is unexplainable about them, no matter what ideas i've considered for them. Theres always going to be that part that we never know until science proves if there is a God or not.
Hmmmm. Well, I don't rule out he possibility of a god caused flood, although I find it highly improbable, seeing as I find god in the first place to be highly improbable.
I do not think that it is a morally defensible action to take. It out classes evil done by every fictional villian. It out does Hitler and Stalin and Mao. And yet, people claim the bible as the basis of morality.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Indeed, and if God is going to destroy everyone because he fucked up, then he isn't perfect.
The Judeo-Christian god cannot be perfect. He admits to making mistakes. If he wasn't being truthful about those admonations, then, well, he's not perfect.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
While I do not assign accuracy to the retelling of these stories in the bible I wonder how you can pick and choose what to disbelieve. Specifically how do you judge the master of life and death by the same rules as a simple human villain?
Life in the story you are examining is everlasting. You are criticizing the being that can allow you to spend eternity in paradise for ending earthly life. That same being CREATED it, can make death an upgrade, and chooses the day and hour of every death.
Morality for this type being has no relation to the basis you are using. Why would it? All of the 'facts' that morality is based on in the world you believe in are different from the one described in the bible. If you wish to evaluate accuracy using the rules of the world within your observation that is valid. If you are judging morality of the main character of a story you must make the judgment in terms of the story.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
Ina a literary sense, god is the equivalent of Sauron from lord of the rings. He is a behind the scenes evil. The difference is that he does help people who he likes so they can spread his word. If I read a book about a cereal killer, and the book told me he wasn't wrong, I would disagree with the book.
I do not believe I mentioned the morality of god. If I did, that was an unintelligent thing to do. I am talking about people who claim that morality comes from the bible. The bible is not a book I would base my moral decisions on. My morality excludes vengeful killing, oppression of women, persecution of homosexuals and people not of my religion, genocide and the renouncement of reason.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
"god is the equivalent of Sauron from lord of the rings."
No, Sauron did not give life to and create all of middle earth. You might as well say he is like Samwise. The morality of Gods act of destroying the world with a flood is closer to you wiping off a black board than it is to a serial killer within the context of the story. He can take an earthly life according to the bible, and that act is a REWARD to the person if he chooses it to be so. Better than a vacation in Hawaii.
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"I do not believe I mentioned the morality of god"
This is what i was refering to, I may have misinterpreted.
"I cannot morally justify the killing of every human on Earth save one family."
And I am glad you cannot. It is just that your view of death is different than the one in the story. In the story life and death is just a property the character named God bestows at will.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
My view of death? Does that mean that all those people were happy they drowned? An all-powerful god could done better at ending wickedness in the world.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
In this story you exist because of God.
Every breathof air, bite of food, ray of sun.....It is his not yours. That is just the story. In fact we already read that part of the story.
The position of thinking that killing humans is the height of evil is called humanism. A philosophy that holds humans as its highest creatures. There is nothing wrong with that view if you are only describing human society.
The objective world is not humanist. A virus is just as much a part of it as are humans, and is not evil even though it could kill you. An asteroid could strike the earth without being evil, because humans are not very important to it at all. Even a flood does not stop to consider your feelings on how high the waters should rise.
Do you consider yourself more objective, or humanist?
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
I think we still have a misunderstanding. I don't consider god evil because I don't think he exists. As a character, his morality is at the very least, questionable. My main point is that this isn't a book that I would want someone deriving their moral concepts from.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
To think that you are not judging him, when you say:
"However, the term unjust law comes to mind."
"I cannot morally justify the killing of every human on Earth save one family."
"I cannot reconcile that with a moral being."
"god is the equivalent of Sauron" (THE primary EVIL in that story)
"An all-powerful god could done better at ending wickedness in the world."
Claiming that you are not calling God evil is just dishonesty. To go along with that you ARE doing it based on your humanist reasoning. Not an objective view, or within the mythos of the bible. That brings into question why you are examining the bible. Why not just examine Huckleberry Finn?
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
I seem to be having problems getting my point across. Alright, let me see if I can straighten this out. As a charcter I would claim, at the least, that god has done evil things. You claim that this is humanist because I am judging god by human standards. Well, as a charcter, Sauron isn't human, but I would still judge him by my (human) standards. I am claiming the CHARACTER of god to be evil.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
The character in the book is not a person like Sauron. It is a source of all existence. A humanist perspective would also call a virus, or an asteroid evil. From an objective point of view the creator of the universe has purposes that are just far greater than the residents of a tiny planet around an insignificant star in a modest sized galaxy that is only one of millions. That is the character we are discussing. Sauron aspired to conquer all of middle earth; God explodes a few thousand supernovas or so per day.
You choose not to believe, but you are capable of imagining how vast an entity you do not believe. The misunderstanding that God is an 'old man in the clouds' is common. The narrative even encourages it. Yet it also clearly tells you that he is the creator and controller of the entire universe. We as humans do not even understand exactly what life, or intelligence is. God wrote the code. According to this story he did it for a purpose, but we don't know what that purpose is. The story is also VERY CLEAR that most humans have, and will fall short of what he is developing us for. This means most of us are just discards according to this story.
I can understand why a person might not want to see themselves that way. It is hard to accept your own insignificance. If you can make yourself be objective though it becomes obvious. The good news (in this story) is that some of us are going to be useful for the purpose for which we were created. If you do not choose to be the story says you won't be.
Since you have chosen to be one of the rejects, if this story is true, I would suggest you might be somewhat in denial of your (fictional?) fate.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
Alright, maybe Sauron is a bad example. What about Melkor/Morgoth? He was among the creators and much nastier things than Sauron ever did.
I guess my point is that the actions he is described as taking, looked at from the only perspective available to me, that of a human, would be considered evil.
I do not consider an asteroid evil. I do not consider a storm evil. I do not consider any natural disaster evil. I make a distinction between evil and bad. It is bad if an asteroid craches into the Earth. It is evill if someone hurls an asteroid into the Earth.
I do not think people believe in an old man on a cloud.
Although I can intellectually imagine a being that could create the Universe, that is all. I find that I cannot comprehend your god with all the atributes he supposedly has. I can be aware that he has them, but I cannot imagine the overall effect.
Hard to accept you own insignifigance.... I agree. That's why I think people made up a purpose for themselves when they created their gods. Yes, god has a purpose for you. Even if you fail, you can claim some Universal signifigance.
I claim none. I am perfectly aware that I am tottally insignifigant on the Universal scale. I do not deny this at all. I do not have a problem with it. I am perfectly happy living my life with that alone as my purpose.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
"Melkor/Morgoth?"
Looks like the Satan role, but I admit I only read the simarillion once, and did not really find it very compelling, while the Hobbit and LOTR got a few readings. Those were written during the blitz of WW2 and Sauron could have represented Hitler in the authors mind.
OK on to the value as a morality teaching tool. I agree that this story is far from ideal from a human perspective. This is especially true in this era of mass publishing were we have thousands of authors from the past couple hundred years to choose from who all had this story to build upon.
Written by the Semitic people of 5,000 years ago it compares favorably with the peer group of books that were written by people of a similar era. That is just my literary opinion for what it is worth. The more important criteria as a moral teaching is the results it achieved. On a social Darwinist scale it rates above all of its peers. This is primarily as a result of the ascendancy of Christianity, but that religion did progress from this source.
Applicable quip:
"The impressive thing about a dancing bear is not how gracefully it dances; just that it dances at all."
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
I think that the main problem is that you aren't the target audiance for the blog, since you aren't a biblical literalist. We seem to wind up gettint into long debates based on misinterpretations of what the other person is saying. Not that I mind. I find our debates interesting and fun and they get us both points.
I read the Silmarillion twice. I don't know why. I think I must have hated myself at the time......
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
"I find that I cannot comprehend your god with all the atributes he supposedly has. I can be aware that he has them, but I cannot imagine the overall effect."
This part of your comment is a very good observation. Many people have this same view, and then experience a sudden Cathartic Epiphamy or it can even be described as being Born Again. Epiphany or 'seeing the world in a whole new light' is not unique to religion, but is often the way understanding is gained.
There is so much more going on in front of each of us than our narrowly focused conscienceness can take in. Sometimes one more piece of information can chage our perspective.
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
-Albert Einstein
Indeed. If I experience some sort of revelation (after all, Christianity is a revealed religion) that I cannot explain otherwise, then that would certainly be a point in god's favor, though not one I'd expect others to accept.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
hhhhhmmmm....so let me get this strait.....we should not get our morality from a book that says.. Do not steal.....Kill......Disonor you parents...........Comit adultry...........lie..........or covit? Wait so these things should be okay? Last time i check....it is upon these comandment that we humans have pretty much based our basic humanaistic laws upon!
"Of the many things that support our government.....religion and morilty are two indespencible supports.....dare that man claim patriotism who would try to subvert these great pillars"
George Washington Father of our Country
Yeah, but stoning homosexuals and people who work on the Sabbath to death isn't so great. Neither is the brutal oppression of women and the condolence of slavery.
As for those good morals, every major belief system has those, regardless as to its contact with Christianity.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Just jumping in to point out that, while Sauron did not create Middle Earth, his master, Melkor, was a part of the process.
Quoted from wikipedia.org:
During the Great Music of the Ainur, Melkor attempted to alter the Music and introduce what he believed to be elements purely of his own design. As part of these efforts, he drew many weaker-willed Ainur to him — creating a counter to Eru’s main theme. Ironically, these attempts did not, as he hoped, truly subvert the Music, but only further elaborate and beautify Eru’s original intentions: the Music of Eru took on a depth and beauty precisely because of the strife and sadness Melkor’s disharmonies (and their rectification) introduced.
Since the Great Music of the Ainur stood as template for all of history and all of material creation in the Middle-earth cycle (it was first sung before Time, and then the universe was made in its image), there was an aspect of everything in Middle-earth that came of Melkor’s meddling – everything had been somewhat "polluted."
Melkor was intended to be Satan, but he, too, tries to change the Music for what he believes is better for others. He makes a better parallel than Sauron.
How, exactly, is Samwise at all like the Judeo-Christian God? Since when is he omnipotent (or at least divine)?
T.k.
Ainur are some sort of choir of angel like beings. That makes Sauron a fallen angel like Satan.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde
No, that would be Melkor/Morgoth. Sauron came later as an evil spirit.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Shudder- The Silmarilion- Sdudder
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
Ha! I never actually read the thing, but I still manage to be up to date on my Middle Earth mythology through the wonders of books about books. Saves one a lot of trouble when you only want the ideas and not the prose.
T.k.
So, do you know about Fundar son of blunkgar father of Hoodar.......
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams
"That is not dead which can eternal lie / And with strange aeons even death may die."
H. P. Lovecraft
When I read about the ages of the biblical people, I can't help but wonder if their years were significantly less than 365 days per year. I honestly can't believe that their life spans were so much longer than ours today when 100 years ago humans had a SHORTER life span than we do now. Maybe their years consisted of only 3 months or something like that? Or maybe the writers of the bible just weren't very good at counting! ;)
If their years were only three months, then there was some pretty unwholesome begetting going on. :-)
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
You never know....it really wasn't all that long ago that girls were sent off to get married at around 13. Back in the good old B.C. era, it may have even been younger!
I must say that no website has ever inspired me to do more research than this one!
Yeah, but that happened back then too!
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson