I marvel time and again at the intense fear in which some Christians live. For a people with the hope of salvation, they don't seem all that happy. I suppose, though, that I would be pretty miserable if I had been trained to believe that the devil lurks everywhere, and that every worldly person or thing is a tool he uses to lure us into eternal damnation. I suppose I would cling pretty obstinately to that hope of a perfect afterlife if I had been so indoctrinated.
But I was. It didn't take, despite twelve years of intense Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod dogma. I am talking about WELS schools from first through twelfth grade, Sunday school and church every week, and prayer here, prayer there, everywhere a prayer prayer.
A large part of that intense education worked to make us fear difference. In second grade, we learned that God burned the gays in Sodom and Gomorrah. We were taught as small children that hell feels like touching a hot stove, but all over every part of your body, even inside your eyes, for all of eternity. I think that came from my first grade teacher. We were taught not to pray or worship with those who disagreed with even the slightest detail of our doctrine. We watched videos of late term abortions. We were taught that any sex but married, missionary-position would inevitably lead to disease and death. In our junior religion class, we did research projects about why all other religions are cults and why we should stay away from them. Why were they so defensive every time we asked a question?
I am now decidedly agnostic, which is not the contradiction in terms it seems to be. I am comfortable with ambiguity. There may be a creator out there. I don't know one way or the other, but I allow for the possibility. I am neither theist, nor atheist.
My impression of atheists, though, is that they are not afraid. They do not expect the worst of people. In fact, to be Atheist and Humanist is to have faith in th ability of mankind to do the right thing, without the threat of eternal damnation. This, it seems to me, is TRUE hope and optimism. More than that, doing right by your fellow humans without threat of hellfire is the highest form of morality. I admire that more than I admire the Christians of my upbringing.
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I loved this. XD Being an atheist myself, I can't agree more. I feel like I'm happier and less afraid than some people around me... People tell me I'm going to Hell for not believing in God, and I shrug them off and tell them some of my favorite people are going there, too, and I'll finally get a chance to meet them.
Thanks! My best friend is an atheist, and he is more afraid to tell people that than I am to tell people I'm a lesbian. People have called him really terrible things, and he is the kindest, smartest, and most moral person I know. I just felt this might be a good forum for defending people like him. When I compare him to the Christians who raised me, they seem like the evil ones.
And think about Fred Phelps. That congregation has something to be afraid of, but it's not the atheists and the gays...It's their own pastor. Crazy, man.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I understand everyone's point, and as a universalist Unitarian, I am more agnostic than anything, because when you try to spread the wrod that there is no God, you are just as wrong as the Christian people who preach about God, neither one of you know the exact truth, so I just take each side for what it is and try to understand the rationale of each argument. :)
But I love your response to people who tell you you are going to hell INkhearted. Kudos to you.
Alicia
If you're referring to Richard Dawkins, I think he walks a fine line sometimes, yes.
But if you are saying that standing up for yourself as an atheist is preaching, then I have to disagree with you. And if you are saying that this post is making a case for atheism as the one true religion, then I have to say you are WAY off base.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
There are no religions. Come on people, stop seeing the world through those glasses. If there is a creator, then there is only one right and one wrong. If there isn't then there is neither... so... NO RELIGIONS!
-Cheez Out-
But what if the creator is a really cool entity who likes the fact that his creation is diverse and free thinking? Can you prove that is not the case? Until then, I don't know if you can say there is only one right and one wrong.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Except.....
amp;
sorry.... I can't help myself.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
Hehe, wow. Once again, if atheists are right that there is no creator, then how can they be doing "right"? I thought right and wrong in the terms of science are just mental concepts. So some atheist goes around and donates to charities. Who ever said that that was the right thing to do? People will say, "Oh but helping humanity is the right thing to do.". Well, if humanity was a product of evolution and will die out some day(that is not a question. Ask ANY scientist and if they are truthful, they will tell you that the ultimate end of life is death.) then helping humanity is pointless and serves no good in light of forever. Here's an example,
It's the year 2100. The earth was hit by a gigantic astroid and everyone is dead. Let's just say that there are aliens and they're watching from ummm... how about Mars? Ok so they're watching from Mars and their talking to each other. One say's to the other, "Say, do you remember who the first winners of the superbowl were?" The other can't answer him. Now take that BAZILLIONS of years into the future when the universe has imploded on itself and NOTHING is alive to benefit from our accomplishments. There would be nobody to say whether someone did right or wrong. No one alive to judge anyone about what they did. Basically all life is pointless without a reason for existing...
-Cheez Out-
I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong, but I want to, again, address a common misperception. YOUR definition of a purpose is not going to be the same as everyone else's. Yes, we will all die, and the earth will someday be devoid of people, but right now, we have an assload of them, so why not better the world while we exist upon it? Teaching is my purpose. Other people feel that their families are their purpose, or a cause about which they feel strongly, or writing, or art, or any number of pursuits.
Christians do not OWN morality. They do not get to define it. They do not get to tell me what has value. That is such hubris. Isn't hubris a sin?
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I never mentioned Christianity. And why would we want to "better"(whatever that means...) the world while we live on it when it will all eventually do no good. So really, you're telling yourself that you do good. Number one that's a contradiction when you say that you're doing good because as you said, good is different for different people. Not only do you tell yourself that you're doing good(I think teaching is good by the way but in light of being created...) but you make yourself believe that now you have purpose in life. What's that purpose? To create educated people? Yeah. So they can make a "better" world? Yeah. Well the world's going to end so that's pretty pointless and in reality you're doing absolutely no good. Ok well I actually have to go now. I hope I didn't seem like I was pushing Christianity down your throat cuz I desperately avoided all religions in this discussion. But yeah, it's hard to think of, but you have to think in terms of forever... I gotta scram now! Keep doing "good!
-Cheez Out-
I can't discuss things with you anymore. You just hammer the same point over and over. It's headache-inducing.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
OK, this is the last time that I will say anything about this. Right and Wrong are not owned by religions or believers in god. I have a very strong sense of right and wrong without god. As for right and wrong in science, what's right is what's true. What's wrong is what's not.
And, no, it is not pointless to help humanity even if you believe that as a race we will one day cease to exist. I want a better life for my children and grandchildren. I want a better life for everyone, in fact, who comes after me. I want to do something that I consider important, and being a member of humanity is something I consider very important.
Believing in the inevitability of death doesn't mean you should just waste away, it in fact, should give you more of a reason to want to live and do something of value with your life.
"There would be nobody to say whether someone did right or wrong. No one alive to judge anyone about what they did. Basically all life is pointless without a reason for existing..."
I don't need to be judged for my life to have a purpose.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
...let's turn to my old favorite, Thomas Jefferson...
"If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists. We have the same evidence of the fact as of most of those we act on, to wit: their own affirmations, and their reasonings in support of them. I have observed, indeed, generally, that while in Protestant countries the defections from the Platonic Christianity of the priests is to Deism, in Catholic countries they are to Atheism. Diderot, D'Alembert, D'Holbach, Condorcet, are known to have been among the most virtuous of men. Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than love of God." ~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law (1814)
percivale
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Hi! I am a Catholic. Although I have become comfortable in my faith and have received an upbringing that has stressed the goodness that we can find in all rather than the devil in everyone and that God is forgiving, I really do enjoy to learn about other people's perspectives on religion. I feel no matter what religion that one is or whether one decides not be religious, it is important for everyone to learn and gather all of the facts before they decide whether religion is right or not for them. Although I do have divergent opinions from you in terms of belief, I admire that you gave your faith that you grew up in a chance and that you chose to pursue something that makes you happy. I think that is the most important of any belief, the comfort and happiness that one finds in it!
You know, when I was in school, we were taught that Catholicism was among the worst of the cults, and that the pope was the anti-Christ. Now I find that the Catholics I know are some of the most level-headed of the Christians out there. And there is a value of social justice in Catholicism that many other Christian faiths just don't have (or if they do, they are more selective about who has value).
Anyway, thanks for a level-headed response.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I agree that it is very important that people establish their faith (or lack thereof) for themselves, and not just to please others. I personally don't attempt to preach Catholicism to everyone I meet on the street and it bugs me when people tell others they are going to go to hell for not believing in God. I am also bothered when Atheists call me ignorant or in say I am in denial because of my faith. I wish we could all just respect and learn from the beliefs of others! You're story is great and I enjoyed hearing your perspective! Thanks!
I didn't read any of the commentary, but I feel I have to stand up for the Religious here. I don't belong to any church personally, but I feel that the rather militant atheism that has taken over American youth is ridiculous. Being intelligent, logical, and religious are not mutually exclusive. You can be a scientist and still be religious. You have to know not to mix the two is all.
No religion is perfect. Terrible things have been done in the name of God, but so have wonderful things. Ultimately, I think the thing that is most sad is that our generation will miss out on a massive chunk of history, and on bits of wisdom, simply because it isn't cool to be Religious.
Atheism is a perfectly acceptable alternative to a religious life, but not when you act like a smug. Then you just look like an idiot.
You should perhaps take note of the many qualifying statements I made in my post, such as "SOME Christians," "the Christians of MY upbringing," "my impression of atheists," and "its seems to me."
None of these are are smug or idiotic. And I never once attacked religious people as unintelligent or illogical.
Also, I sadly no longer qualify as youth. Nor does my best friend, who is far from militant.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Militant atheism is a somewhat misleading term. It is the only ideology that is given that name without actually being militant. I would be considered, by some, to be a militant atheist because I am very outspoken in my beleifs. And, people like Richard Dawkins, who may be openly against religion, certainly isn't militant. He's just outspoken.
"-bah!! Pardon the "bah!" I feel several "bahs!", but out of courtesy I only say one."
H.P. Lovecraft
I think it's time to bring other religions into the discussion as well. Yes, Christianity by and large believes Hell is an inferno for all eternity (which is why I was turned away from it, personally). And Atheists don't worry about hell, so yes, they generally live in hope of doing something good while on Earth.
There are some religions that don't believe in Hell, though. Eastern religions where you are reincarnated again and again until you can break the cycle and find eternal peace. Judaism which doesn't really define the afterlife at all, and concentrates more on how you live your life. These people certainly do good for the good of humanity, yes? They're not doing it under threat that they'll burn in hell if they don't (though reincarnation makes it a little iffy, cause you could be born a turtle or something because you did not earn enough karma to stay human).
And for the general record, your experiences with Christianity are some of the craziest I've seen.
~C
Check out the latest entry in the Between The Lines column!
Amen and hallelujah!
Although not WELS, I am a recovering Catholic and current agnostic. I was lucky enough to have escaped the religous right after sixth grade when my parents moved us to the burbs. I toyed with the Lutheran faith for a while, but nothing really stuck. I was a social practicioner, sort of like being a social drinker with the vice being accepting-Jesus-Christ-as-your-personal-lord-and-savior...being a social drinker is much more fun. I tried bible study. I tried church band. I tried to talk myself into believing. I wanted to believe. And then, after doing all the right things, I was told by someone I considered to be a friend that I would be going to hell. What?! The road to Jesus quickly lost its appeal and I started learning about non-Christian faiths...that didn't work out well, either. I started doubting in a higher power, even though I wanted to believe. In discussions with others, I started asking for "proof" of a higher power, like any good mathematician would. Some "proofs" were entertaining, some just plain ridiculous, a rare few were borderline convincing. Not one has been definitive. Until I am shown that pure, flawless proof, I will consider myself agnostic. Go on, believers, try your best to prove your god exists...I look forward to the entertainment!
I don't know if they're worth engaging in, as it seems pointless to try to change anyone's mind about either position. I generally stay out of them, unless the post presents a judgment of my perceived lack of morals. They are an entertaining read, though. Look for posts and comments by Darwin's Beagle and percivale. Those two are great to read! They know their stuff!
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
lol
I enjoy the religion debate. It amuses me.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Well, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
You failed!!!
lol
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson