He isn't there for you. He doesn't listen to your prayers. He doesn't care if you need something. He doesn't care about you or your problems or... anything, really. He thinks of you as worthless, inferior, pathetic. Ah, no, I have something better: God is dead.
The truth is, religion these days isn't what it used to be -- and a perfect example of that fact could be Kiota's entry from a few days ago, which was well-written might I add. I have noticed that when it comes to religion, there are two major extremes: those people who think about religion in a logical sense and those people who take religion so seriously that they are willing to blow themselves up in the name of their god.
Let's look at this from a historical point of view, shall we?
The earliest humans were buried with flowers, indicating the belief of an afterlife -- religion has been around as long as we have. There are gods of all kinds, like the Hindu Shiva, the Islamic Allah, and the Jewish and Christian God. Some of the earliest records show that Judaism is about four thousand years old, with things like Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Confucianism, and Christianity not far behind, developing just within the next two millenia.
As time went on, the people's knowledge of the world expanded. Science came into play, and new things were being discovered all the time. The mystery of the heavens was unveiled; the discovery of the atom was noted; the belief that the Earth was flat was proved wrong. New thinking brought about new beliefs, ones that differed from the societal norms at the time, and people began questioning themselves.
Is there a god at all?
Maybe there is. Maybe Shiva, Allah, God, and so many others are really the same person with a different name, depending on the region. Maybe these religions all have something to offer, be it paradise or nirvana or heaven. Or maybe, just maybe, we have evolved enough to think that the silly belief in a deity that lives among the clouds is only that: a silly belief. Maybe it's time we really thought about this. Is the idea of a god just made up in our minds? Was it just a way for our ancestors to explain what was unexplanable at the time? Is it possible that religion is still around because human beings are creatures of habit, unyielding to the idea of a major change of belief, and that we just keep believing what our ancestors pass down from generation to generation?
Have our brains evolved enough for us to look at religion and say to ourselves, "This is silly, there is no such thing" while tapping our chins and staring at books like old-world scholars?
God is dead and society killed Him.
i pretty much feel exactly the same as you. We have evolved enough to realize that we can't explain the unknown by making up a religion to explain it. Science has been able to explain enough so that we don't need religion. Why do we still have it? Because people are unwilling to give up their beliefs, which is made obvious by history. Look at when people believed the world was flat? Look at Galileo... he was prosecuted, and threatened with death for showing people what has been proven to be fact.
The day we stop relying on fairy tales to give us salvation, and look to ourselves for salvation is the day that religion will have died. As for right now, god is by no means dead. god still has the power to cause Genocides, wars, hate, intolerance, etc. etc. Why, because the majority of our race is in some way religious, therefore god is still alive. For god to be alive, he has to be in the minds of hearts of the people... look around, he is still very much in the hearts and minds of almost everyone. He is definitely still alive
I didn't actually mean He is dead. What I meant to say, and perhaps I should have elaborated somewhat, was that it seems religion today is either not evident at all or is so present that it's all we see -- it just varies on the person or the situation.
It seems like religion in our part of the world doesn't play a factor very often anymore.
I was mainly going for impact when I wrote "God is dead." :] Thank you for your input!
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"Put it before them briefly so they will read it, clearly so they will appreciate it, picturesquely so they will remember it, and, above all, accurately so they will be guided by its light." ~ Joseph Pulitzer
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/k-mal
I agree with you, to an extent. I think a lot of people become so overcome by their zealous religious beliefs that they lose sight of all reason and logic when making any sort of decision. On the other side of the spectrum, however, I don't necessarily agree with discarding all forms of religion and beliefs in deities. I only hold that if you believe something, keep it to yourself, and don't try to impose your beliefs on others.
Whether or not a deity created us or we created the deity is a matter of debate. It's an argument that cannot be proven and frankly just causes everyone to go in circles. As for my own personal beliefs, I argued with myself for a while on whether or not I was actually being reasonable in my thinking, or if, indeed, my beliefs were silly. Now, however, I've gained a bit more confidence under the realization that, "Hey, I have the choice to believe this, and if people disagree, then that's their choice." I practice as I choose to, with equal amounts of faith and logic.
Indeed, religion was used to explain the unexplainable, and I think to a degree, it still is. While science has proven and explained so many things that even a century ago were unheard of, I still think there's a lot that science can't explain. Science still cannot prove or disprove the existence of a deity or deities; science still cannot definitively say how we came into being (although it's obvious that evolution played a very strong role), and science can't answer any question as to why we exist.
Also, if we can't even prove the existence of God, how can you say for certain that he is dead? :)
My message was that people don't really rely on religion the way they used to. That's why I wrote "God is dead." :]
I don't think the belief in a higher deity is silly. In fact, I myself am agnostic; I'm not sure what to believe. While, for the most part, I don't believe in God, I also find myself open to the idea of a supreme being. (I went through a Buddhist phase, actually; Buddhists believe that life is suffering and that nirvana is the end of suffering -- and you can attain it while you're alive -- and Buddhism doesn't have a god.)
I'm not saying that there isn't a deity, but I'm not saying there is, either. Like I said, I'm open to the idea if I'm given a little proof.
Thanks for the comment!
~ ~ ~
"Put it before them briefly so they will read it, clearly so they will appreciate it, picturesquely so they will remember it, and, above all, accurately so they will be guided by its light." ~ Joseph Pulitzer
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/k-mal
That's good! I hate it when people are so closed minded to things. I myself am a religious person. But I do like to hear about what others believe and/or think. I know there is proof that events in the bible really did happen. But I do believe that as new bible's come out (like the NIV) things have been altered. I know a verse has been taken out and I know that versus have been added. I don't think that the bible is a lie, but I do think that people are interpreting the bible in their own way and then making a newer version of the bible to help others understand it their way. I think the bible itself is opened for interprutation.
Sorry I got sidetracked. I just wish people could be more open-minded and not so critical and judgemental of things. I'm not saying I'm perfect or the people in my religion is, because some of them can be just as closed minded as a lot of the people out there!
I just don't feel like I know enough to say, either way, that there's a God or there isn't. I know someone who was so atheistic that God Himself probably would've shuddered in her presence, and she now stands by the claim, "Yes, there is a deity." It's really strange how that happens.
As for Biblical events, the Bible has been read for historical purposes, but I don't think there's evidence enough in the Bible to say that God is real. But, like I said, my views can always change. (I have a rosary that a friend recently gave me -- just in case I might need it someday!)
I agree about the open-minded thing. I think people need to be more open to ideas because being a stubborn, thick-headed prick will get you nowhere.
Thanks for the comment!
~ ~ ~
"Put it before them briefly so they will read it, clearly so they will appreciate it, picturesquely so they will remember it, and, above all, accurately so they will be guided by its light." ~ Joseph Pulitzer
First off, let me say that I whole-heartedly respect your opinion, but that's not to say I agree with you at all. I think that maybe you need to do more research on this topic before saying drastic and insulting things like "God is dead."
First off, I notice you put Allah on his own but bunched together the Jewish and Christian God. In reality, all three worship the same God (yes, I'm using that as the name God, not just any god). First came the Hebrews, or Jews, the religion started in the times of Abraham but the relationship with God came from the days of creation. The Jews had to sacrifice animals, only the purest ones, to God to have their sins taken away because God cannot be with sin. If they were cleaned of their sins they could go to heaven when they died. Many years later Jesus was born, that is a fact that even non-believers can't deny. Jesus came as the son of God and taught the people of the world that they were not truly living for God. They were simply following routines. Jesus said that the most important part of life was to have a relationship with God and that you couldn't get into heaven through good deeds. At 33 years of age Jesus was crucified. At this point in time things changed. Jesus was the Lamb of God, the only sacrifice that would ever need to be made again.
So how can you say that God is dead when he is living in me and so many other people? Christianity is not really a religion. Jesus himself hated religion. Religion is about routine exercises to try and force your way into an after-life. Christianity is a relationship with God based on mutual and everlasting love. It doesn't matter how much I screw up, because I have prayed that I except him I know where I'm going when I die. To see the Lord that I worship.
Once again, I truly respect your opinion. But I think that it's just that, an opinion... If you would like, I would love to share more with you about true Christianity.
God Bless You,
Nicolette
First off, let me say that I whole-heartedly respect your opinion, but that's not to say I agree with you at all. I think that maybe you need to do more research on this topic before saying drastic and insulting things like "God is dead."
Just out of curiosity, why is this insulting to you? What he is actually saying is that he doesn't believe God exists. Why is it insulting for him to say that and not insulting for you to say that God exists? Personally, I don't find either insulting.
First off, I notice you put Allah on his own but bunched together the Jewish and Christian God. In reality, all three worship the same God (yes, I'm using that as the name God, not just any god). ...
You are certainly correct in that all three religions claim an Abrahamic God ... that is they each have the story of God making a covenant with Abraham.
You would be also correct to point out the errancy of using the term "Allah" to refer uniquely to the God of Islam. "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God". Not all Arabs are Muslims, some are Christians and even a few are Jews. They too refer to their god as "Allah".
However, to claim that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God is problematic. The gods of the three religions have different characteristics. For instance, neither the God of Jews nor the God of Islam had an earthly son. The God of Islam stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son Ishmael, while the God of the Jews and Christians stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son Issac. Also the gods seem to emphasize different things.
... First came the Hebrews, or Jews, the religion started in the times of Abraham but the relationship with God came from the days of creation. The Jews had to sacrifice animals, only the purest ones, to God to have their sins taken away because God cannot be with sin. If they were cleaned of their sins they could go to heaven when they died.
Actually, no. The Jews were to sacrifice animals and other things (indeed one of the ritualistic offerings Hebrew bible (aka the Christian Old Testament) prescribes for Jews to make is called "a grain offering" in which they sacrifice some of thier crop to God), was to not only atone for sin but also to please God. God likes the smell of burnt meat (eg see Exodus 29:25.
The idea behind appeasing God was NOT to go to heaven ... nowhere in the Hebrew bible is there a provision to go to heaven (indeed, Ecclesiastes seems to imply that we don't) ... the idea behind appeasing God was to restore his favor upon the person making the sacrifice.
It is true that some later Jewish traditions did have the idea of Heaven. During the time of Jesus the Pharisees believed that an afterlife was possible, the Saudacees didn't.
... Many years later Jesus was born, that is a fact that even non-believers can't deny. ...
Not so fast. People can deny anything. My own personal belief depends upon exactly what you mean by "Jesus".
If by "Jesus", you mean someone as you describe below then that person was never born. On the other hand, I believe it more likely than not that there was a person born who became an itinerant preacher in Galilee, developed a small following, and was eventually crucified in Jerusalem. I believe that his actual life was of so little consequence and verifiable facts were so hard to come by, that it allowed his life to be a tabula rosa upon which many myths and stories came to be attributed. I think that the historicity of his life has become irretrievably lost.
... Jesus came as the son of God and taught the people of the world that they were not truly living for God. ...
I think it almost certain that the virgin birth/God's only begotten son/etc. is a myth that arose after his death. Neither Mark nor John makes claims about the virgin birth. Matthew and Luke differ in almost every detail. There were even early traditions about Jesus and Thomas being identical twins. Amongst the first Christian sects were the Adoptionists. They believed that Jesus was the adopted son of God (his adoption occuring when John baptized Jesus in the Jordan and God specifying him as his son
... They were simply following routines. Jesus said that the most important part of life was to have a relationship with God and that you couldn't get into heaven through good deeds. ...
Ermm ... actually the idea that you can't get into heaven through good deeds seems to have originated with Paul (eg See Romans 11:5-6. That idea was vehemently opposed by the the author of James
At 33 years of age Jesus was crucified. ...
This idea comes from Luke claiming that Jesus' ministry began when he was about 30. The Gospel of John has Jesus ministry spanning 4 Passovers. IF both are true Jesus would be 33 when crucified. However, the Gospel of John is not consistent chronologically with Matthew, Mark, or Luke. In those gospels the chronology seems to imply a single year ministry. Indeed, a non-canonical Gospel (the Gospel of Peter) that uses much of the same chronology as Matthew, Mark, and Luke specifically states that Jesus' ministry spanned a single year.
... At this point in time things changed. Jesus was the Lamb of God, the only sacrifice that would ever need to be made again.
If this is the reason that animal sacrifices are no longer made then how do you explain the fact that Jews no longer make animal sacrifices?
So how can you say that God is dead when he is living in me and so many other people? ...
Again, what he was actually saying is that God does not exist. God does not exist in you nor in anybody else in any detectable form. What you are actually claiming as God "living in [you] and so many other people" is a subjective feeling you get when you pray. Typically when you pray you deprive yourself of outside stimuli and attend internal feelings. When anyone does that they are going to feel things. They may have thoughts "pop" into their heads. It is very easy to attribute such things to God. And if you feel there is an almighty benevolent being looking over you, I would guess that could be comforting. The question then is, "Are these feelings REALLY from God?" The evidence points strongly to "No" as the answer. People who undergo the exact same type of experience will get contradictory information. For instance, Mother Teresa felt like God commanded her to go to India and work with the poor (she also felt like God never said anything else to her for the rest of her life); the 911 hijackers felt like God told them to fly planes into buildings killing as many as they possibly can.
Christianity is not really a religion. ...
Ermm ... actually it is.
... Jesus himself hated religion. ...
The gospels have him saying unkind things about Pharisees and Sadducees, that much is true. A lot of scholars think that the teachings of Jesus show Essene influence. That is based on the idea that the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in an Essence complex and the "Teacher of Righteousness" mentioned there was an Essene and his teachings are somewhat reminiscent of that of Jesus.
If that idea is true then Jesus would have been an Essene. At his time there were three large Jewish sects; Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes. So Jesus badmouthing Pharisees and Sadducees would be like a Baptist badmouthing Lutherans and Presbyterians.
... Religion is about routine exercises to try and force your way into an after-life. Christianity is a relationship with God based on mutual and everlasting love. ...
You DO realize that not everyone will agree with your definition of religion, don't you?
Your definition of Christianity is based on facts not in evidence (ie the existence of God).
... It doesn't matter how much I screw up, because I have prayed that I except [sic] him I know where I'm going when I die. To see the Lord that I worship.
Except you can't possibly KNOW that. You may believe it. You may be convinced of it. You may even be certain of it ... but you can't KNOW it. You simply do not have the evidence for it.
Since your God interacts with the world it is possible to try to get evidence for his existence. For instance, we could look for the effectiveness of intercessory prayer. In fact we have done just that. Guess what? It doesn't work.
It is often said that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That is only true when evidence hasn't been searched for. When we look for evidence in places where we should by all rights see and we don't find it, then that is the best evidence of absence we can possibly get. I think we have done that.
Once again, I truly respect your opinion. But I think that it's just that, an opinion... If you would like, I would love to share more with you about true Christianity.
You already have. And now I have shared with you why it is that I find it unconvincing. Isn't the internet great?
Cheers,
DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Wow... You took so many things out of context from the Bible... I'm going to choose to do the right thing now and not take this any farther. I'm still willing to talk further in a civilized way if anyone would like to message me but I don't think that further argument will turn hearts.
God Bless
Wow... You took so many things out of context from the Bible... I'm going to choose to do the right thing now and not take this any farther. I'm still willing to talk further in a civilized way if anyone would like to message me but I don't think that further argument will turn hearts.
It has been my experience that bibliophiles (believers in biblical inerrancy) often accuse dissenters of taking quotes out of context. However, when asked to substantiate the complaint, it turns out that any out-of-context references usually come from them. But perhaps your case is different. Since you claim that I "took so many things out of context", it shouldn't be hard to find one and show exactly how I have misrepresented its meaning.
Perhaps, it is not hearts that need to be turned. Perhaps it is minds.]
God Bless
Reason Bless
DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
What a great way to show him the error in his ways. By just walking away and not showing how he took things out of context. Bravo.
[/sarcasm]
~C
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I will admit that I used to be one of those overzealous "religious" people.
but I absolutely HATE religion.
I see the church as an organization that works against what it claims to stand for. I have been made to feel unwanted/unwelcome in so many churches I lost count.
aren't Christians supposed to love one another?
anyway, recently I've lost any desire to be considered a part of that religion, or any, for that matter.
however, I DO believe there is a God.
a month before I was born, my mother contracted e-coli, which almost killed both of us. thankfully, it didn't, and she had me two weeks later.
when she delivered the placenta, it was black and full of holes.
it was dead.
the doctors were stunned, because they said there was absolutely no way it should have been able to sustain any life form... but it clearly did.
science had no explanation.
while some may just say that there HAD to have been some sort of explanation, to my knowledge the tests they ran on it confirmed that it shouldn't have supported life.
I choose to believe that someone, or something, was watching over my mother and myself while I was in the womb.