Evolution 101 Gradual Evolution

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Much has been debated in the scientific world and without as well about the origin of species, or evolution. However, people on both the proposing and opposing side of the issue really do not know exactly what evolution is. This sad fact has resulted in endless debates between people so fully entrenched in their beliefs that such debate is really just fancy arguing. Therefore, here is my endeavour at a balanced post about the pros and cons of gradual evolution. Just a note that this is trying to put extremely complicated theories into simple terms, but it would definitely help if a person had a basic knowledge of genetics, specifically in the area of mutations, to understand much of what is about to be said.

Gradual evolution, also known as Neo-Darwinism, is most basically the belief that everything we see is a result of billions of years of change. The belief originates with Charles Darwin, as the name implies. Darwin first got his idea for his book when he was told by the British governor of the Galapagos Islands that he could identify which island a tortoise came from by the pattern on the shell, as well as the shape of the shell and length of the tortoise's neck. Darwin decided to stay around to observe the other wildlife and discovered the now famous finches and their various differences. He decided to catalogue these differences and found that not only were they different in looks, but the differences had functional uses. Inspired by this, and a great number of other things, he wrote his book "The Origin of Species."

From this book, scientists have based many experiments and research hours probing the possibilities then opened up to them. The current theory, with the unveiling of the shape of DNA, has flowered fully.

The two main engine parts in evolution are mutations and natural selection. Mutation is the first domino to fall in the chain of dominos. A mutation is defined, simply, as a mistake in the copying of genetic information (DNA), resulting in a possible change in the type of protein coded for in a given gene. Mutations occur at a slow rate (Out of the 30000 possible genes in the human DNA strand, only two mutations are believed to occur) and are generally unnoticed in the organism itself. However, there are mutations that do not go unnoticed, These fall into three categories, Nonsense mutation, addition mutations, and subtraction mutations.

Nonsense mutations are mutations where a replacement of a base pair causes the gene to call for a stop in the transcription process. This can, and usually does, truncate the protein the gene originally made and causes the process of that gene to deteriorate or change completely.

Addition and subtraction (deletion) mutations are where a base pair is added or removed from the gene, causing a flood of missense and nonsense mutations to follow. This also completely changes the gene.

This is the first part of the process and the credited source of new genetic information in the theory.

After mutation, natural selection takes over. The title given it is misleading in name, since natural selection isn't intelligent, and therefore is not capable of choosing or selecting. It is but a passive process that causes the weaker organisms that can't bear as many offspring to die off and the stronger organisms to flourish. It is at this point that mutations are revealed as beneficial or deleterious.

It is these two processes that lend credibility to the theory. Mutation providing new genetic information at a slow but steady rate, and natural selection reinforcing the beneficial mutations while weeding out the weak mutations.

However praised the theory of Neo-Darwinism is, it is not without it's own stumbling blocks. First among these is that while mutations are rare, beneficial mutations are as rare as Quasars in the stars. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of mutations in DNA are either silent or deleterious. There are some exceptions that evolutionists have brought up, and I will deal with those.

First among these examples are bacteria and their ability to become immune to antibacterial agents. However, this is pointed out by Gould (More on him in the next blog) as what could be called an evolutionary cripple. Such an immunity comes from the loss of the receptor the antibacterial binds with. When returned to the control group (a group that was not exposed to the antibacterial), a couple dozen generations showed that the amount of bacteria without the receptor was decreasing while the control group was increasing. This shows that the mutation was not beneficial to the organism except in a rare instance.

The next example evolutionists have given in the past is the sickle cell gene, for while a person with the full gene (A homozygous S/S gene) would most certainly die, a person who only carried the gene (A heterozygous S/s gene) would experience a sort of immunity to malaria and certain other diseases. However, outside of areas where malaria is prevalent, this person has the possibility of giving birth to children with the homozygous gene. This makes this example hilarious every time I hear it, because we all know that the homozygous sickle cell gene will never overcome the homozygous standard cell gene.

Next, there are problems with the role of natural selection. In most evolutionary models, Natural Selection is given an almost creative role beyond what has been observed in nature. All that has been observed in both laboratory and natural settings is that of a conservative role for natural selection, with no evidence that it can do more than what we observed. Such assumption is hard to reconcile with actual science.

So, Gradual evolution, though, like most theories, this only scratches the surface, is now presented in as round and impartial way as I can present. There are whole books written on the topic and I could never hope to cover every scrap of information in this short blog, but it is my best idea of neo-Darwinism based on what I have been able to research.

If I have missed something, please post below what I have missed. Also note that nowhere in this series will I deal with abiogenesis, but rather will leave that to people who understand the theory better than I. I understand genetics and biology more than chemistry (I hated my chemistry class, although I was able to figure out the process of methanization without having encountered the theory before by just working out the encounters.

Despite this, I will mention that information theory is a vast and interesting subject for anyone to study. Next blog on this topic will be on punctuated Equilibrium, the theory brought forth by Gould.

En el amor interminable de Cristo,
William R Sculley

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Darwins Beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

As creationist screeds go, this is among the best I have read. Unfortunately, that only puts it among the best of a bad lot. Since you seem to have a sincere interest, I will respond in-depth. I will try to make this as understandable to a general audience as I can, but some of it will undoubtedly be a bit technical. You can either skim any parts that are too technical or ask questions and I will elaborate the best I can. I apologize for the length in advance.

Much has been debated in the scientific world and without as well about the origin of species, or evolution. However, people on both the proposing and opposing side of the issue really do not know exactly what evolution is. This sad fact has resulted in endless debates between people so fully entrenched in their beliefs that such debate is really just fancy arguing. Therefore, here is my endeavour at a balanced post about the pros and cons of gradual evolution. Just a note that this is trying to put extremely complicated theories into simple terms, but it would definitely help if a person had a basic knowledge of genetics, specifically in the area of mutations, to understand much of what is about to be said.

Gradual evolution, also known as Neo-Darwinism, is most basically the belief that everything we see is a result of billions of years of change. The belief originates with Charles Darwin, as the name implies. Darwin first got his idea for his book when he was told by the British governor of the Galapagos Islands that he could identify which island a tortoise came from by the pattern on the shell, as well as the shape of the shell and length of the tortoise's neck. Darwin decided to stay around to observe the other wildlife and discovered the now famous finches and their various differences. He decided to catalogue these differences and found that not only were they different in looks, but the differences had functional uses. Inspired by this, and a great number of other things, he wrote his book "The Origin of Species."

From this book, scientists have based many experiments and research hours probing the possibilities then opened up to them. The current theory, with the unveiling of the shape of DNA, has flowered fully.

I only have a few nitpicks concerning your introduction which was overall OK.

(1) The debates within the SCIENTIFIC world concerning evolutionary theory has been limited to peripheral aspects of the theory (at least since the 1930’s). The peripheral aspects include the importance of certain mechanisms other than natural selection, such as neutral selection, macromutations, the role of punctuated equilibrium, etc. There has been NO debate as to whether or not evolution has taken place. The evidence for that is so overwhelming amongst scientists that is considered a settled issue … it has.

The debate that has taken place over whether or not evolution is a real phenomenon has taken place in the political realm by people pushing a religious agenda.

(2) You have not written a “a balanced post about the pros and cons of gradual evolution”. You barely mention the TONS of evidence that support it. For instance, you make no mention of the nested hierarchies we see in taxonomy. You make no mention of the fact that there are no out-of-place fossils. You make no mention of the data on comparative anatomy that suggests common ancestry across virtually all taxons. Instead you quibble with antibiotic resistance in bacteria and sickle-cell anemia. Furthermore, you ignore the scientific response to the quibbles that you mention.

That’s OK. If you were going to write a “balanced post” then it would have to be book length with almost no mention of the different forms of creationism (since it is irrelevant to the evidence). I would not expect that here. But you should be upfront about it. You are writing a creationist screed. It is your contention that evolutionary theory is not as secure as scientists say it is. You believe that creationism explains some things better than evolutionary theory does. Fine, go ahead and present your evidence that it is so. Just don’t try to give the impression of impartial objectivity when it is not there.

(3) Your term “gradual evolution” would be more properly be referred to by its technical name, PHYLETIC GRADUALISM. That means that speciation caused divergence at a rather regular slow pace. Neo-Darwinian evolution has not been wedded to phyletic gradualism since the publication of GG Simpson’s book, TEMPO AND MODE OF EVOLUTION.

(4) Darwin came to his idea of evolution by means of natural selection by a long line of reasoning. He certainly did NOT have an epiphany when the governor of Galapagos told him about being able to identify the island of origin of the turtles. If he had he would have been more careful as to labeling of his specimens. He failed to record the islands that he took them from, MUCH to his later regret. Fortunately, others on the expedition also took specimens and they DID record which islands they came from. Darwin was able to crib notes from them on the islands of origin of not only the turtles but mockingbirds and finches among others.

What a lot of people don’t realize is how much thought Darwin put into his theory. He returned from the voyage on the Beagle in 1836. It wasn’t until two years later in 1838 that he opened his first notebook on the “transmutation of species”. He began to write what he called his “big book” on the subject in 1844. In 1858 he got the paper from Alfred Russell Wallace that made him think he better publish soon or have his idea scooped. ORIGIN (which Darwin referred to as a abstract of his “big book”) was published in 1859, 23 years AFTER the voyage on the Beagle ended.

As such it is impossible to set a single instance as being the moment when it all came together. Darwin himself, credited reading Thomas Malthus for his “eureka” moment; but in his notebook on evolution he barely makes mention of his having read it. I tend to think that it came about gradually.

The two main engine parts in evolution are mutations and natural selection. Mutation is the first domino to fall in the chain of dominos. A mutation is defined, simply, as a mistake in the copying of genetic information (DNA), resulting in a possible change in the type of protein coded for in a given gene. Mutations occur at a slow rate (Out of the 30000 possible genes in the human DNA strand, only two mutations are believed to occur) and are generally unnoticed in the organism itself. However, there are mutations that do not go unnoticed, These fall into three categories, Nonsense mutation, addition mutations, and subtraction mutations.

Nonsense mutations are mutations where a replacement of a base pair causes the gene to call for a stop in the transcription process. This can, and usually does, truncate the protein the gene originally made and causes the process of that gene to deteriorate or change completely.

Addition and subtraction (deletion) mutations are where a base pair is added or removed from the gene, causing a flood of missense and nonsense mutations to follow. This also completely changes the gene.

This is the first part of the process and the credited source of new genetic information in the theory.

Again this is mostly OK. My comments here are like those above, mostly minor quibbles.

(1) By using the metaphor of dominoes falling you give the impression that mutation and natural selection are step-like cause-and-effect processes. First a mutation occurs and that causes natural selection to either keep it or eliminate it. This is somewhat misleading.

Mutations occur all the time. Natural selection is working all the time. A mutation that may have occurred in an ancestral species could have been passively passed on through several descendant species without any selection taking place. Millions (perhaps even billions) of years may pass before an organism finds itself in an environment in which that mutation makes a difference to its reproductive success. It would only be at that moment that natural selection would kick in.

As a general rule it is not the mutation that causes natural selection to act on an allele, it is an environmental change that does so. This remark will become important when I discuss your section on natural selection below.

(2) You say, “A mutation is defined, simply, as a mistake in the copying of genetic information (DNA), resulting in a possible change in the type of protein coded for in a given gene.” A more useful definition of mutation would be simply to say, “a mutation is a mistake in copying the DNA sequence”. Your definition creates problems when we look closely at the genome.

For instance, most eukaryotic genes are segmented. There are stretches of DNA whose code will ultimately lead to the expression of specific amino acids in proteins. These are called EXPRESSED SEQUENCES or EXONS. However, between these exons are sequences that get processed out of the RNA and do not ever get expressed into proteins. These are called INTERVENING SEQUENCES or INTRONS. Does an intron constitute genetic information? Or is it trash with no informational content? Or perhaps play an important role in differential expression of genes? A mutation that occurs in an intron will not have an effect on the type of protein coded for, but it may have an effect on the expression of that protein. For instance, the protein my not be produced in as much abundance as normal.

Also only about 1% of the human genome encodes for protein. If there is a mistake in copying the genetic code there a mutation? It is very unlikely to have any effect on the fitness of the organism.

Finally, some of the DNA codes for RNA sequences NOT proteins. A mistake in copying that COULD have profound effects on the organism’s fitness.

Under my definition there is no question, a change anywhere in the genome is a mutation. For the purposes of my response for the rest of this section I will be using MY definition of a mutation.

(3) The cells of the body can be roughly divided into two groups; somatic cells that make up the organism’s organs, and sex cells that will differentiate into gametes (eggs and sperm). If a mutation occurs in a somatic cell it will have no effect on succeeding generations. Thus, mutations are of importance to evolutionary theory only insofar as they occur in sex cells … and even then only in sex cells that develop into new organisms.

It has been a while since I checked the literature on mutation rate and the following discussion will be from memory. I am confident of the principles behind the discussion, however, the details may have changed since I last looked.

The human genome has about 3 billion base pairs. The spontaneous mutation rate is about 1 per million base pairs copied. That means that in a typical cell division there are about 3000 mutations. However, we are eukaryotic organisms and we have enzymes that specifically try to sense and repair genetic damage. They repair about 9 out of 10 of the mutations. That leaves about 300 mutations per cell division. These occur randomly over the genome. But only about 1% of the genome codes for genes. Therefore we average about 3 mutations per genome.

Mutations can occur by a number of ways:

Point mutations – These are changes in which a single nucleotide is (a) miscopied to another nucleotide, (b) inserted into the sequence, or (c) deleted from the sequence.

Line inserts/Line deletions – These are mutations in which a number of nucleotides are inserted/deleted from the sequence.

Inversions – This type of mutation occurs when a segment of DNA gets clipped and spliced back on in the opposite direction from which it originally was.

Translocations – This happens when a piece of one chromosome gets clipped off and then spliced back on to another chromosome.

Segregation distortions – This happens during anaphase of cell division. Instead of chromosomes going to opposite poles as they should, occasionally some go to the same pole as their paired chromosome. This can lead to large increase/decrease in the amount of DNA in an organism’s genome.

Mutations that affect gene expression – I have already alluded to one type above … a mutation that causes a gene not be expressed as abundantly as it did before.

These types of mutations can affect the host organism in a number of ways. For instance, point mutations involving the miscopying of one nucleotide for another is likely to be have no observable effect. A point mutation involving an insertion or deletion, on the other hand, creates a frame shift. The amino acid sequence of proteins is determined by the sequence of DNA nucleotides taken 3 at a time. Inserting or removing one nucleotide shifts the frame and can change all downstream amino acids. This might seem like a devastating mutation, and it can be. However, it usually isn’t. If may occur in gene that makes no difference to the organism’s survival in the environment it finds itself. Or even more likely, since we have two copies of genes, one from our mother and another from our father, even though one copy is devastated the other functions well enough so that even a frameshift mutation does not affect the organism’s fitness.

Most offspring are about equally fit as their parents. That is they produce about as many viable offspring as their parents did. Therefore most of these mutations, even the ones affecting the gene-encoding regions of the genome must be neutral mutations. So contrary to the popular notion that most mutations are harmful, they are actually neutral, neither benefiting nor adversely affecting the host organism.

After mutation, natural selection takes over. The title given it is misleading in name, since natural selection isn't intelligent, and therefore is not capable of choosing or selecting. It is but a passive process that causes the weaker organisms that can't bear as many offspring to die off and the stronger organisms to flourish. It is at this point that mutations are revealed as beneficial or deleterious.

It is these two processes that lend credibility to the theory. Mutation providing new genetic information at a slow but steady rate, and natural selection reinforcing the beneficial mutations while weeding out the weak mutations.

This discussion of natural selection is pretty weak.

(1) Natural selection is working all the time. Strictly speaking it doesn’t even require mutations. An organism can have an acquired injury that makes it more subject to predation. That organism is likely to be selected against even though there is no gene for his defect. Of course, such selection has no effect on the course of evolution. Evolutionary significant selection occurs only with traits in which (a) are inherited, and (b) for which have some variation within the organism’s gene pool.

Furthermore, there exist some special cases in which natural selection works in very significant ways yet no mutation is involved. Two of the most significant evolutionary events in the history of life fall into that category. All eukaryotic cells have mitochondria which are capable of producing biologically useable chemical energy from O2, and plants have chloroplasts which are capable of fixing energy directly from sunlight into the chemical bonds of carbohydrate molecules. Both of these subcellular organelles apparently arose NOT through mutation, but by a process called symbiosis. Both had ancestors that were apparently free-living bacteria-like organisms. At some point another bacteria-like organism engulfed one and instead of ingesting it allowed the mitochondrion/chloroplast precursor to live within it to the mutual benefit of both.

(2) There is nothing wrong with the term “Natural selection”. It means just what it says … nature selects. The term selection does not necessarily imply intelligence. A lot of selection occurs without intelligent involvement. For instance, eggs are sized by having a conveyor belt bring them across platforms that sense their weight. If the egg is of a certain weight the platform lowers and the egg is put into a bin with other eggs of similar weight. If it weighs less than that platform specifies the egg is transferred to the next platform that responds to less weight. Eventually the egg will be with other eggs of its size. This is selection but there is no intelligent agency doing the selecting.

(3) Since organisms are complex, natural selection can be complex as well. Perhaps, it even qualifies to be a directly creative force in some special cases. I will give you a taste of one such controversial area in modern evolutionary theory, the evolution of evolvability.

As I said above we have enzymes that are responsible for sensing and repairing mutations. Ours works at about a 90% efficiency. However, some organisms have enzymes that do a bit better than ours and some have enzymes that do significantly worse.

Some organisms have evolved in environments that do no seem to change hardly at all. Others evolved in environments that fluctuate wildly. It turns out that those in very long-term stable environments have VERY efficient repair enzymes, those in constantly fluctuating environments have POORLY efficient repair enzymes. Why is that?

The idea behind evolvability is that organisms with very efficient repair enzymes are fitter in very stable environments, but organisms in which mutations (an hence variation needed for evolution to occur) build up faster are more fit in wildly fluctuating environments. In the wildly fluctuating environments, such an organism is more likely to develop a mutation that will allow its offspring to adapt. Thus, natural selection would favor an organism more likely to develop a mutation.

However praised the theory of Neo-Darwinism is, it is not without it's own stumbling blocks. First among these is that while mutations are rare, beneficial mutations are as rare as Quasars in the stars. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of mutations in DNA are either silent or deleterious. There are some exceptions that evolutionists have brought up, and I will deal with those.

First a couple of other quibble. Quasars are not all that rare. They are just very far away and are thought to be a product of the early universe.

Second, you are being misleading. It is wrong to classify mutations as beneficial, neutral, or deleterious without making reference to the environment they are in. NO mutation is going to be universally beneficial no matter what environment it happens to be in. Some mutations can be deleterious in one environment and beneficial in another. The most common case is for a mutation to be neutral for a long period of time, until a change in the environment occurs. At that time the formerly neutral mutation can have either a beneficial or a deleterious effect.

Since most organisms are well adapted to their local environments already, any novel mutation is of course most likely to seem to be deleterious. Suppose that such a mutation causes the organism to have a harder time competing with other members of its species. This may cause the organism to migrate, it may migrate to an area with a different local environment where the mutation will not be a problem or can even be a benefit.

First among these examples are bacteria and their ability to become immune to antibacterial agents. However, this is pointed out by Gould (More on him in the next blog) as what could be called an evolutionary cripple. Such an immunity comes from the loss of the receptor the antibacterial binds with. When returned to the control group (a group that was not exposed to the antibacterial), a couple dozen generations showed that the amount of bacteria without the receptor was decreasing while the control group was increasing. This shows that the mutation was not beneficial to the organism except in a rare instance.

You seem to be implying that antibiotic resistance in bacteria is always due to the loss of some gene product. That is not the case. Most antibiotics do not have a receptor on the surface of bacteria. The way antibiotics work is that they attack something vital in a bacterium but do not adversely affect us.

For instance the pennicillins attack bacterial cell walls. Our cells do not have a cell wall to attack. The aminoglycosides attack bacterial ribosomes which are different in structure from eukaryotic ribosomes (but are very similar to ribosomes found in mitochondria and chloroplasts). The fluoroquinolones attack an enzyme that untwists bacterial DNA. This enzyme is not found in eukaryotes.

Resistance to all of these antibiotics can be demonstrated in experiments. Take any bacteria you want and any antibiotic you want. Plate the bacteria on agar plates and it will form colonies. Each colony is a population of bacteria that are descended from a single bacterium. Therefore at one time there was a single DNA sequence. Any new trait must have arisen by mutation.

From that initial plating chose a colony of bacteria. It doesn’t matter which one. What you need to do is plate some bacteria on more agar plates except this time the agar is made up with different concentrations of whatever antibiotic you chose. You need plates in which the concentration of antibiotic is so low virtually all colonies survive, to plates in which the concentration of antibiotic is so high virtually all colonies are killed. Plot the number of colonies that survive as a function of the concentration of antibiotic in the agar plate. From this you can estimate the concentration needed to kill ½ the colonies. This is the LD50 (lethal dose 50%).

Next make up a mess of agar plates with an LD50 concentration. Plate the original bacteria on one plate. On the next plate, use bacteria from a surviving colony from the previous plate. Continue this procedure throughout. At the end recalculate the LD50. You are virtually guaranteed to see that the LD50 has significantly increased. In other words it will take much more of the antibiotic to kill half the colonies. You might even find that the antibiotic no longer has any effect on the bactria.

Now if you happen to also have expertise in molecular biology you can compare these bacteria to bacteria taken from the original colony to see what is changed. Here there is no guarantee on your results. Antibiotic resistance can be achieved in a number of ways and there is no predicting beforehand how whatever bacteria you chose will end up doing it.

I suspect your particular example derives from penicillin resistance. Penicillin attacks bacterial cell walls. It binds to a particular sugar-like molecule on the cell wall. SOME strains of penicillin resistant bacteria no longer make that particular sugar molecule. They achieve their resistance by not having a penicillin binding site. But there are other strains of bacteria that achieve penicillin resistance in different ways. For instance some pump out a chemical that breaks down penicillin’s biochemical structure. Others take up penicillin before it has a chance to do damage to the cell wall. These other ways do not necessarily involve a loss of anything.

The next example evolutionists have given in the past is the sickle cell gene, for while a person with the full gene (A homozygous S/S gene) would most certainly die, a person who only carried the gene (A heterozygous S/s gene) would experience a sort of immunity to malaria and certain other diseases. However, outside of areas where malaria is prevalent, this person has the possibility of giving birth to children with the homozygous gene. This makes this example hilarious every time I hear it, because we all know that the homozygous sickle cell gene will never overcome the homozygous standard cell gene.

You have a severe misunderstanding of what this example actually shows. It shows how natural selection works and how it differs from Intelligent Design. Natural selection has absolutely NO foresight. It cannot anticipate problems. All it knows is what provides a selective advantage with respect to a specific environment at the moment.

Sickle-cell trait, the heterozygous condition, offers a selective advantage to people in an environment rife with malaria. Malaria is caused by Plasmodium bacteria, (usually P. vivax or P. falciparum). These bacteria are transferred to humans during a bite from a mosquito. They form trypanosomes inside red blood cells (RBCs). Infected RBCs do not respire like a normal cell and therefore, tend to become acidic. RBCs with a single copy of Hbs gene (the sickle cell trait) will form sickle-shaped cells in an acidic environment. These cells do not go through capillaries well so they rupture, releasing the trypanosomes into the blood stream where the body’s defenses can attack them. This effectively makes the person immune to malaria.

Unfortunately, a person with two copies of the sickle cell gene (ie a person who is homozygous Hbs) will form sickle-shaped cells with no provacation. This leads to a lot of cells being ruptured, severely compromising oxygen transport and stressing out the liver. It will ultimately lead to the death of that person.

So on the one hand, Hbs gives one a selective advantage if one has a single copy, but on the other hand it gives one a selective disadvantage if one has two copies of the gene. That means that IF a particular population is subjected strongly to malaria and the gene has not yet entered into the population, ANYBODY who may develop this mutation will be selectively advantaged. So will all this person’s offspring. And unless they have children with their siblings so will THEIR offspring. So long as the frequency of the Hbs in the population is very small then almost anyone having it is likely to benefit from it. BUT as the frequency rises the likelihood of being homozygous rises. So at what level does NATURAL SELECTION hold the frequency of the gene in the gene pool?

The answer depends upon the selective advantage that heterozygous person has. If the selective advantage is very high, almost everyone without it will get malaria and die, then we would suspect that ½ of the gene pool would consist of the Hbs allele. And humans would have to produce 4 offspring on average to get two viable ones to reproductive age (the homozygous Hbs die from sickle-cell and the homozygous HbA [the normal allele] die from malaria).

Well, obviously malaria is a very bad disease but not everyone will get it, and not everyone who gets it dies before reproduction. So the selective pressure is not that great. The point at which natural selection will hold the frequency of the Hbs allele in the population is the point where the selective advantage for being a heterozygote equals the selective disadvantage for being homozygote. It turns out that point will be where the per capita deaths from malaria within the HbA population will equal the per capita deaths in the Hbs population.

Guess what! That is the point at which the frequency of the Hbs allele is held in which populations in which malaria and sickle cell are endemic. What this shows then is that NATURAL SELECTION IS WORKING. And it is working EXACTLY the way we think it is. Thus, if natural selection can be shown to be working on this gene, then what is stopping it from working on every gene? Absolutely nothing! If it can cause this much a dramatic shift in the frequency of alleles in the population in a short time, what can it do by acting on alleles of a bunch of different genes over a longer period of time? There is absolutely no theoretical barrier stopping it from doing anything.

To make the point even more forcefully, let’s compare this with the creationist explanation. … Well actually they do not have an explanation. So we will use have to use their paradigm to come up with an explanation. Creationists say that “new information” cannot arise on its own. But with respect to malaria resistance the sickle cell trait IS new information. It causes infected cells to destroy themselves before they become a problem. That is novel information. So if this new information could not have arisen on its own, then an intelligent designer must have created it. But that creates problems … did the intelligent design not know that homozygotes would die from sickle cell disease? Could he not even foresee that simple problem? If that is the case then he is colossally stupid.

So who has the better explanation … modern evolutionary theory or creationism?

If this were an isolated phenomenon then I would say that it is not really important. But it isn’t. It turns out that evolutionary theory holds the explanation for the origin of a number of genetic diseases. For instance, heterozygotes for cystic fibrosis have a selective advantage in surviving cholera. We would never know this if it weren’t for research with an evolutionary paradigm to it.

Next, there are problems with the role of natural selection. In most evolutionary models, Natural Selection is given an almost creative role beyond what has been observed in nature. All that has been observed in both laboratory and natural settings is that of a conservative role for natural selection, with no evidence that it can do more than what we observed. Such assumption is hard to reconcile with actual science.

Er … what are you saying it should do … create its own variation? Well, in a sense it can even do that … see my section on evolvability above. One can think of natural selection as a sculptor, and the variation that is inherent in a population as the block of rock. When the sculptor starts, it is just a block of rock, but by winnowing away the bits and pieces of the rock, he can produce any work of art that he finds worthwhile. By winnowing away the variation in a gene pool, natural selection can create adaptations that are worthwhile for the reproductive success of organisms. That’s the role that scientists have ALWAYS said it could do, and that is the role that the evidence says it can do.

So, Gradual evolution, though, like most theories, this only scratches the surface, is now presented in as round and impartial way as I can present. There are whole books written on the topic and I could never hope to cover every scrap of information in this short blog, but it is my best idea of neo-Darwinism based on what I have been able to research.
If I have missed something, please post below what I have missed. Also note that nowhere in this series will I deal with abiogenesis, but rather will leave that to people who understand the theory better than I. I understand genetics and biology more than chemistry (I hated my chemistry class, although I was able to figure out the process of methanization without having encountered the theory before by just working out the encounters.

Despite this, I will mention that information theory is a vast and interesting subject for anyone to study. Next blog on this topic will be on punctuated Equilibrium, the theory brought forth by Gould.

I hope I have given you a LOT to think about (even if you didn’t make it all the way to here). I also hope you actually try to read some REAL science concerning evolutionary theory. But in any case it should be interesting to see what you have to say about Eldredge and Gould’s theory on punctuated equilibrium.

Cheers,

DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

I cannot respond to the whole of your comment directly, but I do say this much. I am not debating whether evolution occurs. I am debating what the limits thereof. The arguments I have given for the problems facing NEO-Darwinism are cited to Gould's articles (Gould being one of the foremost of PE evolutionists), and NOT to Creationist articles (The same articles are cited in Creationist books, but I can obtain these articles at my library). Secondly, I am trying to speak on a genetic level, since without genetic variability and change, there would be no evolution. Injuries do not effect the genetic strands of an organism.

And yes, for the sake of simplicity, I am keeping things in a step process. Mutations occur before they are subjected to the effects of natural selection.

As for the rest of your little blog comment, I can only say that the rest of my stance will come clear later. Considering a friend of mine just died, you will have to wait a little while.

Darwins Beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I cannot respond to the whole of your comment directly, but I do say this much. I am not debating whether evolution occurs. I am debating what the limits thereof.

I am quite aware of what your argument is. You do not think that natural selection and random mutation are capable of creating the adaptations we see in living organisms. But that argument boils down to an argument from personal incredulity. We DO see that natural selection acting on available variation is capable of producing novel things. A case in point is the reliability with which bacteria will evolve antibiotic resistance. If natural selection can do that then what is stopping it from doing everything we believe it is capable of doing?

The arguments I have given for the problems facing NEO-Darwinism are cited to Gould's articles (Gould being one of the foremost of PE evolutionists), and NOT to Creationist articles (The same articles are cited in Creationist books, but I can obtain these articles at my library).

(1) Depending on exactly what you mean by "NEO-Darwinism", it may have long since evolved to a quite different form. We have changed some things added others and expanded virtually everything from the days of Simpson, Haldane, Dobzhansky, Stebbins, et al. That is why I refer to it as "Modern Evolutionary Theory". That allows us to talk about what we think is the best approximation to reality.

(2) Gould most certain WAS a proponent of punctuated equilibrium. But he presented the case in a somewhat misleading manner. When he talked about punctuated equilibrium he distinguished it from what I referred to as PHYLETIC GRADUALISM, a steady slow gradual change in evolution. Gould even referred to that idea as "Neodarwinian" but I think most of the Neodarwinians would object to that description. Ernst Mayr certain DID object. Even Darwin himself had stated that the pace of evolution need not be constant. GG Simpson wrote an entire book entitled TEMPO AND MODE OF EVOLUTION in which he stressed that we should expect there to be times in which evolution proceeded more rapidly than others.

One could argue, and indeed Gould DID argue it, that the biggest impact of his theory of punctuated equilibrium was not that it stressed the rapid spurts of evolution, but that it actually stressed the much longer periods of STASIS ... the period in which there was no change. In fact, Gould had a mantra ... STASIS IS DATA.

In my opinion, Gould did a very good job of pointing out that these periods did exist. That typically organisms have a prolonged period in which there is no detectable change in the fossil record. However, I think he did a poor job coming up with a mechanism behind the phenomenon. Gould postulates that species are like individual organisms with a certain lifespan. They can reproduce (produce daughter species) and they compete with other species. His idea was that specieation involved MULTILEVEL SELECTION. That requires a bit of explaining.

We know that natural selection means that nature selects something. But what is the unit that is selected. Richard Dawkins thinks the unit of selection is the most basic one ... the gene. Most traditional evolutionists think of it as the individual organism that is selected. A theory popular back in the 1920's and 1930's, and one that is regaining some adherents now is that it is the individual and sometimes a group. Gould believed that the uniti of selection could be the individual or a group, but he also thought it could be a species.

My opinion is that certain interesting phenomenon .... mitochondrial genes moving to the nucleus, ALU repeats and "jumping genes", segregation distorter genes, etc. can be best explained by selection at the level of the gene ... but for the most part evolution can be viewed as having the individual as the unit of selection. I think that models in which the individual is selected for can explain the phenomenon we see that group selectionists point to as evidence of group selection and species selectionists point to as species selection.

I think Gould was wrong with regard to species selection causing the pattern that we see in the fossil record that he referred to as punctuated equilibrium. I think that the periods of stasis are actually periods that allow genetic variation to build through the accumulation of neutral mutations. Then a change in the environment will alter the selection pressures on alleles and will cause a period of relatively rapid evolution.

The point of this little discussion is to let you know that this is indeed an area of controversy in modern evolutionary theory. But with respect to modern evolutionary theory "all that glitters is not Gould". Modern evolutionary theory is not going to be overturned no matter who ultimately turns out to be correct with respect to punctuated equilibrium.

Secondly, I am trying to speak on a genetic level, since without genetic variability and change, there would be no evolution. Injuries do not effect the genetic strands of an organism.

I know you are trying to speak on a genetic level, but you are not being quite correct when you do it. I do not know where your statement "Injuries do not effect the genetic strands of an organism" comes from. Perhaps it is in reference to my comment on "repair enzymes". If so then the "injuries" we are talking about are mutations and they obviously do affect the genetic strands. The nuclear DNA in our cells has enzymes that spot and attempt to repair mutations after they have happened. They do a pretty good job of it too.

And yes, for the sake of simplicity, I am keeping things in a step process. Mutations occur before they are subjected to the effects of natural selection.

As Albert Einstein said, things should be made as simple as possible ... but no simpler. When you present "things in a step process", you give the impression that things occur stepwise. That is misleading. Mutations create variation. That variation is with us and has been for a long time, just sitting there ... waiting (if you want to be anthropomorphic about it). A change in the environment is what sets natural selection to actually working on it.

To give you an example ... most people, even creationists will grant that domestic dogs came from wolves. But a beagle certain looks a lot different than a wolf. So how many mutations did it take to make a beagle from a wolf. The answer is probably none. There was more than likely enough variation within the gene pool of wolves to come up with a beagle. Furthermore, beagles are unlikely to be able to interbreed with wild wolves (size difference), so were it not for the fact that there exists other breeds of dogs with which the beagle can interbreed with it would be impossible for a gene of beagle origin to inter the gene pool of wolves and vice versa. In other words, all one would have to do cross the species barrier between beagles and wolves is to eliminate those breeds of dogs that are intermediate in size between the two. No new genetic information is needed. So it is obviously possible that within the gene pool is already enough "information" for there to be speciation. If the species barrier can be crossed then what is stopping evolution from crossing other taxons as well? The answer is ... nothing.

As for the rest of your little blog comment, I can only say that the rest of my stance will come clear later.

Er... what is not clear about your stance now?

Considering a friend of mine just died, you will have to wait a little while.

Take your time ... you have my sincere condolences upon your loss.

DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

In the bacteria, are there ever speciations? Or what happens to them if taken from the area of antibiotics? It isn't novel if it is just a defence. We have not seen a new species come out of those tests, so we have NOT seen anything novel. The likelihood is more that the gene(s) for resistance were already there in the first place, as it is with the moths in England (There has always been two types of pepper moths). Since you have NO proof that the variation was produced solely by way of mutation, then you have NO proof that the experiment resulted in a true novelty. The only thing you CAN say about that is that the population ratio changed, because that is the only thing you have proof of.

Secondly, you have no proof that the new information was not there already. We even have documents of people suffering from all the symptoms of sickle-cell anemia (that could be observed outside the body) from before the New Testament was recorded (And possibly even one within the New Testament as well, though that is speculation). how can you prove something is novel if it has been there in the homozygous state since before we encountered malaria or have records of people suffering from malaria?

Now, I have to go to a viewing, so you wait to educate me on something I haven't yet discussed until I have put forth all the theories. Don't assume what my creationary theory is until you have read it in my last blog.

PS: You would think that if I plan on doing a blog on Gould's theory that I would have some knowledge of species (multi-level) selection, founder theory and the rest of the theory.

Darwins Beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

In the bacteria, are there ever speciations?

Depends upon what your definition of a species is with respect to organisms that don't reproduce sexually. For a biologist, the answer is a resounding ... YES.

Or what happens to them if taken from the area of antibiotics?

If you remove the antibiotics then you have changed their environment and you will change the selection pressures. They will evolve in a manor that is adaptive to their new environment.

It isn't novel if it is just a defence.

Excuse me??? If the bacteria didn't have the defense before and they do now, then it is by definition novel.

We have not seen a new species come out of those tests, so we have NOT seen anything novel.

Excuse me??? What makes you think that speciation is the requirement for novelty. In the example I gave you concerning beagles and wolves, you could have speciation without ANY novelty.

The likelihood is more that the gene(s) for resistance were already there in the first place, as it is with the moths in England (There has always been two types of pepper moths). Since you have NO proof that the variation was produced solely by way of mutation, then you have NO proof that the experiment resulted in a true novelty. The only thing you CAN say about that is that the population ratio changed, because that is the only thing you have proof of.

Er ... wrong. The experiment involved a clone of a SINGLE bacterium. Antibiotic resistance wasn't there to begin with, it was at the end. What more proof do you need?

Secondly, you have no proof that the new information was not there already.

Wrong, and for the same reason.

We even have documents of people suffering from all the symptoms of sickle-cell anemia (that could be observed outside the body) from before the New Testament was recorded (And possibly even one within the New Testament as well, though that is speculation). how can you prove something is novel if it has been there in the homozygous state since before we encountered malaria or have records of people suffering from malaria?

Er ... you do know that HbS is caused by a single point mutation that changes a glutamate residue to a valine in the beta chain of hemoglobin. That mutation has probably occurred a million times over the course of human history.

Now, I have to go to a viewing, so you wait to educate me on something I haven't yet discussed until I have put forth all the theories. Don't assume what my creationary theory is until you have read it in my last blog.

The viewing is the important thing. Go to it. I'll wait patiently.

PS: You would think that if I plan on doing a blog on Gould's theory that I would have some knowledge of species (multi-level) selection, founder theory and the rest of the theory.

I look forward to it. I hope you do better as time goes on.

Cheers,

DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

In Bacteria, a species can be seen by it's changes in activity. Do the effects of the bacteria change? Does E. Coli ever change it's methods of attacking the body? If the only change is resistance to an antibacterial, then the answer, according to biology is a resounding no. You cannot tell me that they have designated them as anything other than separate strains of the same disease. Quit overexagerating the truth.

You don't get it, do you? There is still the major chance the gene was already there, and only a change in the system regulating the gene was triggered. It could be, oh my word, a defense mechanism. Quit pulling rabbits out of your hat and start pulling something substantial. It isn't novel if it happens every time you expose the organism to antibacterials and returns to the original set when you remove the antibacterial. It is like a yoyo. Novel means it hasn't happened before. next you'll be telling me that tadpoles changing into frogs is something novel.

Darwins Beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

and incredibly poor.

In Bacteria, a species can be seen by it's changes in activity.

What??? A species cn been seen by seeing it. In bacteria a species is DEFINED by a number of things which include its morphology and its biochemistry. As we get a larger and larger database on bacterial genome I think the trend will be to define them by their DNA sequences.

Do the effects of the bacteria change?

YES!! All the time. Sometimes it is due to inducing the expression of genes that have been quiescent, other times it is due to .... EVOLUTION. YES, IT HAS BEEN SEEN.

I'll even give you another example. In 1975 biologists discovered a strain of Flavobacterium that used nylon as its food. Nylon is a totally synthetic material. Prior to 1935 it had NEVER been seen on the face of the earth. Yet this bacteria was able to break bonds that no other bacteria could. When you look at the bacteria it has a NOVEL biochemical pathway. When you look at the DNA of that bacteria, the genes for this biochemical pathway OBVIOUSLY came about by gene duplication and frameshift mutations.

Does E. Coli ever change it's methods of attacking the body?

Since different strains of E. coli affect the body differently the answer would be YES.

If the only change is resistance to an antibacterial, then the answer, according to biology is a resounding no.

Geez Louise ... the example I gave you was a SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT. The experiment was designed to LOOK SPECIFICALLY FOR THE NOVEL DEVELOPMENT OF ANTIBODY RESISTANCE IN THAT STRAIN OF BACTERIUM. So why would anybody with an actual brain think that because it didn't develop a new way by which to attack humans that nothing novel was produced?

You cannot tell me that they have designated them as anything other than separate strains of the same disease. Quit overexagerating the truth.

Geez Louise ... instead of trying to claim that the experiment doesn't show what it was never designed to show AND NO ONE HAS EVER CLAIMED IT DID SHOW, try to understand what it actually DOES show.

The experiment CLEARLY demonstrates that a combination of mutation and natural selection can produce adaptive changes that were NOT there before.

You don't get it, do you?

I'll let others determine who it is that doesn't "get it".

There is still the major chance the gene was already there, and only a change in the system regulating the gene was triggered.

Let's see about the things you don't seem to be able to get ...

(1) This experiment is repeatable. You can use ANY bacterium you want. You can use ANY antibiotic you want. You will ALWAYS end up with bacteria that are resistant the antibiotic.

(2) You can do the molecular biology and you can show exactly the mutations that have taken place. You can do the molecular biology and compare it to the original bacterial genome and show that there WERE mutations. You can show exactly what happened.

(3) We find that there are a number of DIFFERENT ways that bacteria can become resistant to the same antibiotic.

It could be, oh my word, a defense mechanism.

DUH!! it was one that wasn't there before.

Quit pulling rabbits out of your hat and start pulling something substantial. It isn't novel if it happens every time you expose the organism to antibacterials and returns to the original set when you remove the antibacterial.

You don't seem to be able to recognize ... or you are like most creationists I know and --- refuse to recognize --- substantial if it doesn't support what you want it to. THAT IS WHY we don't take you guys seriously. It isn't because we are afraid of the consequences of creationism. It is because your arguments REALLY SUCK. And a normal person knowledgeable with the data can dismiss them.

What does the term NATURAL SELECTION mean? It means NATURE SELECTS. By NATURE what is meant the ENVIRONMENT an organism finds itself in. Now in the experiment I described to you ... go back and read it again ... we MAKE THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE BACTERIA'S ENVIRONMENT THE ANTIBIOTIC.

If you withdraw the antibiotic then it is VERY LIKELY that the costly pathway the bacteria evolved to handle the antibiotic will be SELECTED AGAINST. So the fact that the bacteria loose the resistance is NOT an example of "reversion". It is an example of EVOLUTION AT WORK again. I don't know that the experiment has ever been done (primarily because it is so obvious) but I'll bet that if you look at the bacteria you can find many of the original mutations that originally bestowed antibiotic resistance upon these bacteria.

It is like a yoyo. Novel means it hasn't happened before.

No ... novel means that it is new. And in the experiment what is new is bacteria's biochemical machinery that allows it to be resistant to whatever antibiotic you happened to choose.

... next you'll be telling me that tadpoles changing into frogs is something novel.

For the tadpole, it is novel. It just doesn't require anything novel with respect to the tadpoles genome. So no one is claiming THAT is how how evolution changes the genome, now are they?

Cheers,

DB

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

What would "New" mean?

Definition from the American Heritage Dictionary:
Not previously experienced or encountered; novel or unfamiliar

and definition of Novel:

adj. Strikingly new, unusual, or different.

Now, if in tests prior to your test the same (or similar) result occurs (And there are several tests of this theory), then how would the later experiments be generating a novel response? If the response has occurred before in a lab test, it would stand to reason that it has happened and happens on a regular basis outside of the lab, where people, and the bacteria on them, encounter antibacterial agents both within and without the human body (medicines, soaps, etc.). Therefore, you have no reason to assume that it is a novel change, since it happens on a regular basis. It is not a different species. I might go so far as to call them a different strain of the same species, but not beyond that.

Darwins Beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

You started out fairly reasonable but you have degenerated rather quickly.

What would "New" mean?

It means something that wasn't there before ... like antibiotic resistance in a strain of bacteria.

Definition from the American Heritage Dictionary:
Not previously experienced or encountered; novel or unfamiliar

Like antibiotic resistance in a strain of bacteria.

and definition of Novel:

adj. Strikingly new, unusual, or different.

Like antibiotic resistance in a strain of bacteria.

Now, if in tests prior to your test the same (or similar) result occurs (And there are several tests of this theory), then how would the later experiments be generating a novel response?

What the hell did you just say?

Let's do it once again since you seem to have developed a conceptual block.

(1) Step 1 in the experiment. plate bacteria and chose a plaque at random.

A plaque of bacteria is colony of bacteria that arose from a single bacterium. Now that bacterium had only a single copy of its DNA. Bacteria have only one chromosome. They only have a single copy of each gene. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE STARTING WITH. THAT PARTICULAR STRAND OF DNA.

It doesn't matter what genes other bacteria may have ... even bacteria of the same species. There genes are NOT going to enter into this experiment. The only genes that are going to be involved in this experiment are ones that are derived from the original bacterium. ... Got that??

(2) Step 2: Culture the bacteria.

That means grow up more clones. This gives you a population of bacteria ALL DERIVED FROM THE ORIGINAL SINGLE BACTERIUM. The reason you do this is so you will have all the bacteria to do what you need to do.

(3) Step 3: Make up agar plates with varying concentrations of an antibiotic.

You are going to use these plates to determine the concentration that will kill the bacteria.

(4) Step 4: Plate equal concentrations of the bacteria on the plates.

Let the plates incubate for a set period of time, and then count the colonies. Plot the number of colonies versus the antibiotic concentration. Unless you have made a bad mistake what you should get is an S-shaped curve. You deduce from the graph the concentration of antibiotic that is required to kill 50% of the colonies. That is by definition the LD50.

You can also set any criterion you want for an effective dose that will kill all the bacteria if you wish.

(5) Step 5: Make up a bunch of agar plates with an LD50 concentration of bacteria.

What you are doing here is setting up the environment for the experiment.

(6) Step 6: Plate some more of the bacteria from the original stock on the agar plate.

The only colonies you will get are colonies that arose from a bacterium capable of surviving the LD50 dose.

(7) Step 7: Culture some of the bacteria from a surviving colony. Use these bacteria on another LD50 agar plate.

(8) Step 8: Repeat steps 6 & 7 through several cycles, or until you get as many colonies per plate as you did on your control plate that had no antibiotic.

(9) Step 9: Repeat the steps needed to calculate a new LD50.

You are going to find that it will take a MUCH larger amount of bacteria to kill the bacteria. What was an effective dose in killing the bacteria is no longer an effective dose in killing the bacteria.

So WHAT IS NOVEL is the ability to survive a formerly lethal dose of antibiotic. Do you understand that?

Just in case you still can't, let's go further ...

(10) Sequence the genome of bacteria from the original stock

(11) Sequence the genome from the newly antibiotic resistant bacteria.

(12) Compare the two.

What you will see is that there are some significant differences between the two. WHAT IS NOVEL IS THE NEW DNA SEQUENCES.

(13) If you are a very competent geneticist, you can do some experiments using site-directed mutagenesis techniques and discover exactly which mutations are important in conferring antibiotic resistance on the bacteria. WHAT IS NOVEL ARE THESE GENES.

Do you understand now? If you don't then my guess is that if the bible had said that you don't have a nose on your face, you would quite happily look in the mirror and deny that you had one.

If the response has occurred before in a lab test, it would stand to reason that it has happened and happens on a regular basis outside of the lab, where people, and the bacteria on them, encounter antibacterial agents both within and without the human body (medicines, soaps, etc.).

Except at the beginning of the test you already determined that the bacteria WERE NOT RESISTANT TO THE ANTIBIOTIC. It doesn't matter what OTHER bacteria have, the bacteria used in the experiment didn't have the antibiotic resistance. The experiment itself showed that.

Therefore, you have no reason to assume that it is a novel change, since it happens on a regular basis.

Not only do you have a reason to assume that a novel change has taken place, the experiment shows exactly what novel change DID take place.

It is not a different species.

The experiment is not designed to test for speciation. Your implied claim was that naturalistic means cannot produce novel adaptations. The experiment shows that with the appropriate selection pressures evolution can produce adaptations in a very short time. From there one REASONS that if it can do that over a period of weeks, there is absolutely no barrier that it cannot overcome over deep time (thousands, hundred thousands, millions, or billions of years).

If you want direct evidence that speciation HAS occurred then we can go to comparative anatomy, biogeography, the fossil record, and comparative genomics for that.

I might go so far as to call them a different strain of the same species, but not beyond that.

Sigh ... my advice to you is that when you find yourself in dangerously deep hole, quit digging.

Cheers,

DB

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

If you repeat the experiment, same antibiotic, same strain, and get the same result, would it be novel? or redundant?

how did you establish that EVERY SINGLE CELL had no resistance? If you had, then you would have a bunch of dead cells. There isn't a way to establish that every cell has no resistance. That would be like the Twelve Tribes Community assuming that there was never any child abuse going on in the community. Since scientists are humans, they cannot be fully sure of anything. But you are so fully sure that evolution occurred the way that the textbooks say it did, you don't question a thing the textbooks say. In fact, you won't even admit that it might just be an adaptation already in the organism that was activated after a threshold amount of certain chemicals in the antibiotics was reached. We have plenty of examples in the animal world and even in the human body where a response in the individual isn't triggered until a threshold has been breached. Examples such as the response of the pancreas releasing insulin based on the amount of glucose in the bloodstream, or endorphins being released when a threshold number of pain receptors are fired.

How did they prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it is a genetic change (most likely a mutation of several dozen genes in an extremely unlikely and fortuitous series of mutations of the exact base pairs in the exact section of exactly the right genes) and not a response of the organisms that was built in already?

And, even if it was a genetic change, since mitosis OBVIOUSLY results in change of the dna (otherwise, there would be no point to the test), then you have no way of grabbing at which generation said change occurred, whether before or after the introduction of antibiotics, or even before the original cell was introduced. Because of the inherent unpredictability of mutation processes, you have no way to be completely sure of the time of the change, since mutations occur, most often, during mitosis, when the gene copies itself.

Darwins Beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

If you repeat the experiment, same antibiotic, same strain, and get the same result, would it be novel? or redundant?

The "same result" you get is that the bacteria becomes resistant to the antibiotic. In repeated runs the same strain doesn't necessarily garner that resistance the same way.

how did you establish that EVERY SINGLE CELL had no resistance? If you had, then you would have a bunch of dead cells. There isn't a way to establish that every cell has no resistance. That would be like the Twelve Tribes Community assuming that there was never any child abuse going on in the community. Since scientists are humans, they cannot be fully sure of anything. But you are so fully sure that evolution occurred the way that the textbooks say it did, you don't question a thing the textbooks say. In fact, you won't even admit that it might just be an adaptation already in the organism that was activated after a threshold amount of certain chemicals in the antibiotics was reached. We have plenty of examples in the animal world and even in the human body where a response in the individual isn't triggered until a threshold has been breached. Examples such as the response of the pancreas releasing insulin based on the amount of glucose in the bloodstream, or endorphins being released when a threshold number of pain receptors are fired.

(1) GEEZ LOUISE!! How many times do you need to have the experiment explained to you? ... OK ... one more time ... & this time with pictures.

That is an agar plate. You see those white dots on it? Those are bacterial colonies. Each discreet non-overlapping white dot is a colony of bacteria that was derived from a SINGLE BACTERIUM/ Got that??

A single bacterium. That means that all those bacteria (there are about a million of them per colony) came from the SAME bacterium. Thus, any differences in the genomes of the bacteria, BY DEFINITION, has to have occurred because of mutation. Got that??

Now what you do is you take just bacteria from a single colony and put it in a good growth medium ... something like modified Eagle' medium (MEM). You can grow up a HUGE number of them. They will still be bacteria all derived from that single bacterium. Any difference in the genome will again, BY DEFINITION, will have occurred throug mutation.

Here is one way to demonstrate sensitivity to an antibiotic:

You see those 5 big white blobs there? Those are plaques soaked in a concentration of an antibiotic. They were put on the agar plate first. Then a saturating load of bacteria was plated on the agar. Notice NO GROWTH around the antibiotic plaques? That is antibiotic sensitivity. You got that???

Here is a picture that shows antibiotic resistance:

The plaques are labelled A thru G. Each has a different antibiotic . Notice that plaques labelled A and C do not inhibit bacterial growth at all. That bacteria is totally resistant to those antibiotics. It doesn't matter what bacteria you use; it doesn't matter what antibiotic you use, if you perform the experiment and let it run long enough you will end up with bacteria that are totally resistant to the bacteria. Got that??

You can do the molecular biology if you want and compare the genome of the resistant strain with the genome of your original sample. You are going to find that there are now differences. Remember both strains of bacteria -- the newly resistant strain, and the old non-resistant strain -- are derived from the same bacterium with the same genome. The differences in the genome then have BY DEFINITION diverged by mutation. Got that??

If you are good enough you can look at the difference and see exactly how the bacterium became resistant to that antibiotic. Some of the more popular ways for bacteria to become resistant to antibiotic include:

(1) pumping out enzymes that alter the antibiotic.
(2) altering the structure of their cell wall to prevent antibiotic penetrance.
(3) take up the antibiotic and sequester it inside the cell and eventually break it down

Got that??

(2) So the way you know that the bacteria started out without resistance is by the way you do the experiment. YOU SHOW SENSITIVITY TO THE ANTIBIOTIC AT THE BEGINNING OF THE EXPERIMENT.

(3) I don't know anything about your 12 Tribes, but it is obviously nothing like the experiment.

(4) The problem here is unreasonable credulity on MY part. It is unreasonable INcredulity on YOUR part. You are steadfastly denying the obvious simply because you don't like the results. Well tough ... if you do the proper controls then results you get have nothing to do with what you like or not.

How did they prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it is a genetic change (most likely a mutation of several dozen genes in an extremely unlikely and fortuitous series of mutations of the exact base pairs in the exact section of exactly the right genes) and not a response of the organisms that was built in already?

Have you ever heard of CUMLATIVE SELECTION?? It is not so fortuitous as you may think. Every mutation that provides a selective advantage will be increased in the gene pool. There are millions and millions of bacteria involved in the experiment and bacteria have pretty high mutation rates. There is absolutely nothing preventing them from doing exactly what they do ... That is why they do it.

And, even if it was a genetic change, since mitosis OBVIOUSLY results in change of the dna (otherwise, there would be no point to the test), then you have no way of grabbing at which generation said change occurred, whether before or after the introduction of antibiotics, or even before the original cell was introduced.

We know that the change had to occur some time AFTER the original bacterium began forming the colony on the original agar plate. WHO CARES WHEN THE FIRST MUTATION HAPPENED? The only way it could have happened is by mutation. It gets concentrated in the gene pool by natural selection ... and the agent in the environment doing the selecting is the antibiotic.

Because of the inherent unpredictability of mutation processes, you have no way to be completely sure of the time of the change, since mutations occur, most often, during mitosis, when the gene copies itself.

Again ... WHO CARES?? It wasn't there in the antibiotic-sensitive strain; it is there in the antibiotic-resistant strain. WTF more do you need?

DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

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